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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Laws and Magic
Posted by: 252 Jun 3 2004, 02:37 AM
Okay first off more or less what magic detect spells can be used with-in the constition, to those that are protected by it.
Ohhh I'm behind the whole, you don't have a SIN you aren't protected.
I've always seen magic as being as illegal as any gun. Is there a place that actually goes over these things.
I also figure if it is against the law to use such things as mind probes spells. Or that they won't hold up in court. That an officer can get a warrant and find stuff that he can get his hands onto because the spell had in directed them to those things being around.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jun 3 2004, 02:54 AM
Anything Force 1 or 2 is legal, anything Greater requires a permit. Some people rule that Mindprobe is an Illegal spell, but to my knowledge this is a houserule.
As a note, Force 9 spells/foci/spirits have a negative legality code. Im not really sure what that means.
Oh yeah: Detection spells do not hold up in court - at least, not in the UCAS judicial system. I believe this is mentioned in one of the older sourcebooks, and might be in a 3rd edition one, though I'm not sure which (if any).
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 3 2004, 03:02 AM
It' not a house rule, mindprobe is illegal because it violates the 5th amendment, self incrimination. Any evidence gathered as a result of a mindprobe is inadmissable.
Posted by: theartthief Jun 3 2004, 03:17 AM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
It' not a house rule, mindprobe is illegal because it violates the 5th amendment, self incrimination. Any evidence gathered as a result of a mindprobe is inadmissable. |
That is in the UCAS and CAS. In other, how should we say, less scrupulous countries [read Atzlan] mindprobe would be fine... as long as you are sacntioned to use it.
- thearttheif
[edit]Hit the wrong button.[/edit]
Posted by: Frag-o Delux Jun 3 2004, 03:22 AM
| QUOTE (theartthief) | ||
That is in the UCAS and CAS. In other, how should we say, less scrupulous countries [read Atzlan] mindprobe would be fine... as long as you are sacntioned to use it. - thearttheif [edit]Hit the wrong button.[/edit] |
Not all states are evil. I believe the Souix court system has 3 judges on the bench during the trial. At least one, if not all are magic users. And the whole time you are on the stand a compel truth and or a mind probe is being used on you to get the truth. The indians have a different take on the legal system then the white man.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 3 2004, 03:25 AM
Enforcement varies by spell type, too. If a LS mage notices detection or health magic floating around, he's less likely to pounce than if it's combat or the like.
Posted by: cutter07 Jun 3 2004, 03:29 AM
| QUOTE |
| As a note, Force 9 spells/foci/spirits have a negative legality code. Im not really sure what that means. |
LOL, that has sort of a double meaning as most LEO aren't going to chase mages using force 9 spells in the first place.
Posted by: Capt. Dave Jun 3 2004, 04:37 AM
What do you think all those Banshees underground at the Seattle HQ are for? 
Edit: I'm pretty sure the Catalog spell's results would be legal. Admissible? Depends on how good your lawyer is.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jun 3 2004, 04:44 AM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| It' not a house rule, mindprobe is illegal because it violates the 5th amendment, self incrimination. Any evidence gathered as a result of a mindprobe is inadmissable. |
Inadmissibility in court is not the same thing as illegality. There is no canon reference that states mindprobe is illegal at force 1 or 2, nor is there a canon reference to any inability to acquire a permit to learn that spell at force 3 or higher. While, as is the case with all detection spells, the results of a mindprobe spell are inadmissible in court (As a note though: The Fifth Amendment can be waived, in which case such evidence would be admissible... but who's to say the mage who cast the mindprobe/analyze truth/whatever isnt lying? An infinite chain or mages affirming the truth of all mages to testify beforehand? The main problem with these spells is the lack of objective verifiability by mundanes.) There is nothing to say that simply knowing the spell is illegal.
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jun 3 2004, 04:48 AM
To toss in one detail that may not quite be relevant and has not been mentioned, ritual materials for any combat spell are illegal. Even though a force 2 "slay cop" spell is somehow fully legal, it seems that there is no way you can argue self defense when you had to spend hours preparing the attack.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 3 2004, 05:15 AM
I may be wrong, but I believe that Slay Cop isn't a legal spell rules-wise unless cops have recently become a different kind of critter entirely.
Edit: plus that would open all sorts of restricted-target messes, like "Slaughter Cop" being used to weed out undercover cops in a group of runners, or "Slaughter Guy Who Sold Us Out" for weeding out the more traditional turncoats.
~J
Posted by: KillaJ Jun 3 2004, 07:17 AM
| QUOTE |
| I may be wrong, but I believe that Slay Cop isn't a legal spell rules-wise unless cops have recently become a different kind of critter entirely. |
Theres always slay pig...
Posted by: last_of_the_great_mikeys Jun 3 2004, 03:18 PM
Allright, let's see if I can shed some light on this topic with conjecture and opinion...
force 3+ spells and spirits are officially illegal in the UCAS. On corp property who knows? Heck, if Lofwyr (the corporate owner and CEO...his being a dragon for the purposes of this arguement is irrelevant) decides to he can change the laws of Saeder-Krupp minute by minute and have wildly inconsistant applications of the laws of the moment. In other countries who knows.
Any spell used to break a law may or may not be legal, but the law is still broken. For instance, use a force 2 magic fingers spell to steal something and you have broken the law regarding theft, but not regarding magic. Net result: 1 charge of theft. Use a force 3 magic fingers spell to steal something and you have broken 3 laws. Net result: 1 charge of theft, one charge of illegal use of magic, one charge of illegal magical knowledge without a permit.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 3 2004, 04:09 PM
| QUOTE |
| Inadmissibility in court is not the same thing as illegality. There is no canon reference that states mindprobe is illegal at force 1 or 2, nor is there a canon reference to any inability to acquire a permit to learn that spell at force 3 or higher. |
Posted by: Zephania Jun 4 2004, 07:34 AM
Here's a scenario for you:
You cast a force 3 or higher spell in a public place, no one sees you do it on the astral. Can any follow up investigation determine the force of the spell cast? Or what type of spell? Or even the exact spell?
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 4 2004, 07:44 AM
Yes, yes, and yes, because spells leave an Astral Signature for a duration afterwards. Not too long mind you, but the stronger the spell the longer the impression lingers. The metamagic Cleansing can erase such signatures, imprints, and temporary background counts.
Posted by: Zephania Jun 4 2004, 07:49 AM
How long after the spell is cast does it leave an impression for? Is it force in hours? I need to know in case I need to delay a forensic mage etc
Posted by: Namergon Jun 4 2004, 10:15 AM
Anothe note : all illegal actions performed using magic are treated as "with premeditation".
I didn't see mentioned yet in the topic, so: most legal information about magic is found in MITS.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jun 4 2004, 12:25 PM
| QUOTE (Zephania) |
| How long after the spell is cast does it leave an impression for? Is it force in hours? I need to know in case I need to delay a forensic mage etc |
Yes, it is indeed force in hours. Note that you can erase astral signiatures without access to cleansing metamagic, though doing so takes time. See SR3, page 172 for details.
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 4 2004, 12:37 PM
Minor hair-splitting question:
I don't have my books with me, can someone give me a quote? I believe the quote is something to the effect of "...anything with an availability higher than 3 is illegal..." (emphasis mine)
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jun 4 2004, 12:40 PM
The quote is "All spells, foci and spirits of Force 3 or higher are considered illegal"
Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jun 4 2004, 12:52 PM
Y'know, you're sitting there, you've got the book on your lap, you're copying out of it, would it be too much trouble to give a page number?
That's how referencing works.
Posted by: toturi Jun 4 2004, 12:55 PM
How do you differentiate between a Force 3 bound spirit and a Force 3 free spirit? If a Force 3 spirit is illegal then wouldn't Buttercup be illegal?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 4 2004, 04:36 PM
You try telling her that.
~J
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 4 2004, 04:41 PM
She'll make you double-post. Nasty stuff, that.
~J
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jun 4 2004, 07:17 PM
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Jun 4 2004, 07:52 AM) |
| Y'know, you're sitting there, you've got the book on your lap, you're copying out of it, would it be too much trouble to give a page number? That's how referencing works. |
Actually, by the time you posted that I was in my car on my way to work. I'm ever so sorry if that hastily posted response did not meet your standards. In the future, if I have any reason to doubt whether you might find a potential response to be adequate, I'll refrain from posting it. I certainly wouldn't want to offend you.
...
Anyway, the page number is 305, SR3.
toturi: I'm pretty sure that bound spirits carry the astral signiature of their summoner.
Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Jun 5 2004, 12:40 AM
It should be noted that the Meta discipline Cleansing allows you to clean all your astral signatures MUCH faster and easier but it's still very doable withuot cleansing, just takes 1 action per force and you'll have to clean every effect you've used. SO if you just cast 3 force 5 spells, you'll need 15 actions to clean up after yourself. Cleansing I belive does them all in 1 action.
Sunday
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jun 5 2004, 02:53 AM
Actually, my reading of Cleansing is that it *only* clears away astral signiatures that are associated with a temporary background count. As such, with a few exceptions, only damaging spells, spells that cause intense emotion, and "extremely high-force spells" can be Cleansed.
Any other signiatures (such as, for example, the signiatures from invisibility or clairvoyance spells) will not be cleansed unless they exist in an area that has a temporary background count for some other reason AND that background count fits in the criteria for erasure using the Cleansing technique.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 5 2004, 03:13 AM
| QUOTE |
| Actually, my reading of Cleansing is that it *only* clears away astral signiatures that are associated with a temporary background count. |
I feel it is pretty clear that one can use Cleansing in an area that has no magical phenomenon whatsoever, it simply will do nothing. Your interpretation is the equivalent to saying you can't fire a gun without a designated target. Cleansing just happens to erase any signatures in the area regradless of Backgournd Count. YMMV.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jun 5 2004, 04:51 AM
I dont think thats clear at all. Reread the section on cleansing. What seems pretty clear is that the primary effect of the technique is to remove temporary background count, and that astral signiature erasure is a side effect of that removal.
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