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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Sloppy Runners.
Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jun 3 2004, 04:08 PM
Well alot of times a character in my group will be sloppy, not every one really cares obout if they where seen, or who hads tabs on who.
So in my Game i'm going to have and undercover agent infiltrate the group, be it from corp to goverment.
Now I say if a group gets to sloppy i always have hell rain down on them ***Hell Rain on them, I have a Lone Star Cop named Alex Rain on there ass**
now it's at the point where they have the FBI on them.
What are your guys opinions on this take?
Have you ever done anything like this?
Posted by: Siege Jun 3 2004, 05:08 PM
It's difficult to "infiltrate" a tight group of people.
How many NPCs routinely run with your PCs? You might have better luck "turning" a PC and having him inform for interested third parties.
At the very least, a PC would still have to introduce the new "recruit" to the rest of the crew.
-Siege
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 3 2004, 05:26 PM
One of the GM tricks for running an undercover agent in a group is to let a player run his PC normally, then at some point just take over the PC. Or pull out the "real" character sheet. This works best with a cooperative player who doesn't mind surprise GM interventions; it can really piss off all the players if you're not careful.
I suppose a Shadowrun variant might be to let a PC have a "dark secret" flaw, but not tell the player what the dark secret is. "Okay, Bob, step outside with me. It's time to learn what your PC's dark secret is, and I'm going to be running your PC for a bit tonight..."
Another version I ran was of a NPC doppleganger mimicking a PC and attacking the other PCs. Since the PCs were not all in a group (the mimicked PC was separate; they were supposed to meet later), the other PCs later jumped the mimicked PC while the doppleganger got away.
Posted by: Number 6 Jun 3 2004, 06:20 PM
I try this stuff when a PC gets killed. I'll take them aside and say, hey, yor character should be dead, but i'll let you live and have some fun for awhile. Then we tweak the characters history so the whole time he was a sleeper agent for XXXX and nobody knew it. A few sessions down the road i'll 'activate' him to fullfill some goal. This usually surprises the shit out of the players, who then turn their wrath on the PC who betrayed them.
I'll usually give the moles' next character a bit of bonus karma for playing a walking deadman.
Posted by: Arethusa Jun 3 2004, 07:20 PM
| QUOTE (Mr.Platinum) |
| Now I say if a group gets to sloppy i always have hell rain down on them ***Hell Rain on them, I have a Lone Star Cop named Alex Rain on there ass** now it's at the point where they have the FBI on them. |
Does he carry akimbo Berettas, have a constipated grin on his face, and speak only in melodramatic metaphor?
Posted by: Backgammon Jun 3 2004, 07:30 PM
Sprawl Survival Guide states, and I completely agree with it, that undercover agents infiltrating runner teams are very, very unlikely. It's just way too difficult and dangerous. The risk of getting killed is really quite high, plus the work required to pull it off successfully isn't worth it.
Cops looking to bring down runners are better off hitting them with surveillance and putting heat on their contacts. Most level 1 contacts will give away the runner if it means not going to jail themselves. Some will even do it for money.
Posted by: Nikoli Jun 3 2004, 07:32 PM
Hence why runners should maintain several id's some just for when dealing with contacts
Posted by: kuroko Jun 3 2004, 07:41 PM
| QUOTE (Mr.Platinum) |
| Now I say if a group gets to sloppy i always have hell rain down on them ***Hell Rain on them, I have a Lone Star Cop named Alex Rain on there ass** now it's at the point where they have the FBI on them. What are your guys opinions on this take? Have you ever done anything like this? |
Ok, so I'm in the habit of having a NPC or two along for the ride with those guys. Usually a decker (or some other role that the players need but don't know/ aren't filling/the rules are too complex and I wanna use simpler ones that would make it too easy on players), but there have been times where I've considered this. The simple answer to have the guy work with them, help 'em out, maybe even save their lives, and then spring the pain. No warning, very little chance off them discovering anythng until near the end.
Typically this is due to them allowing a corp to id them after they've done many runs against them. If you want to target one specific player for stupidity, make them the traitor and let the other players slowly figure it out.
Posted by: Lantzer Jun 3 2004, 07:50 PM
The FBI would only attempt to infiltrate a runner team in order to build a file on their contacts and employers. The runners themselves are nothing.
It's too much risk and effort to infiltrate a team just to go after the team. If the feds are capable of putting an agent into the team to betray them, they could have just as easily picked them all up, and made the SINless ones dissapear.
Now, I could see the Feds recruiting a runner or whole team as informants, in the old, "Work for us and you'll keep breathing regularly" style. But only to gather information on the bigger fish in the shadow pond.
After all, what keeps runners in business is the fact that they are nobody (with skills).
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 3 2004, 08:39 PM
| QUOTE (Arethusa) | ||
Does he carry akimbo Berettas, have a constipated grin on his face, and speak only in melodramatic metaphor? |
In all fairness he only talks like that when under great emotional strain. In the second game he was largely normal intil his coworker betrayed him, then he was slipping but didnt fall into full Noir Metaphor mode until the last chapter of the game, aptly named "That Old Familiar Feeling" when he went full blown snappage.
I loved those games for the story. Those games had atmosphere.
Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 3 2004, 09:41 PM
Infiltrating a team wont happen. First its like really hard. Second, infiltrating the team gets you nothing because theyre not connected to their emplyoers, thats like the point of using runners. To infiltrate a team with the intent of getting the employer would require you to predict and know who would hire them when. And to get the team itself its easier to use more normal means.
Someone on the team betraying them is a total other story. Thats plausaible and makes complete sense. Selling them out for whatever reason by a npc contact or member is a real risk of shadow work.
Incidently, if your team doesnt care who sees them and is sloppy, how the hell are they a) alive and b) still getting jobs. Might want to hit them with the logical-gm-stick before you break out the backstabbing-player-stick....
Posted by: JaronK Jun 3 2004, 10:16 PM
If the Feds are on to them, set up a sting. Have the Feds set them up for a run against someone or something, and have that someone or something know about it, and ambush the runners, and then have the place where they retreat to known about as well. Perhaps try to plant a tracker on their vehicle?
JaronK
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 3 2004, 10:26 PM
Or have the feds talk to one charcters. "you know, we have you" produce lots of pics from camera and print outs of activities from other runs.
"Now you and you're little pals can do 20 years inside a federal pen, or a little job for us, or maybe you'd like us to give this detail to Cross? I think they'd like to know you."
Of ocurse the group is never off the hook asnd this can be a convenient hook if used rarely"Think of it as work release."
It's up to the grabbed runner, does he tell the gorup what's up or does he just say it's a run they have to do.
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 3 2004, 10:35 PM
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Infiltrating a team wont happen. First its like really hard. |
Sure it is. Every PC runner is a complete professional who takes no chances, is reasonably paranoid, makes no mistakes, and never misjudges character. That new runner they hired for their shadowteam, the one who has years of experience in the shadows, was never a company man. Really. They checked corporate records, which are never purged of incriminating evidence.
| QUOTE |
| Second, infiltrating the team gets you nothing because theyre not connected to their emplyoers, thats like the point of using runners. |
That's the theory, but that's not how it works out. Consider:
pg126, Corporate Download. "Ares is normally willing to expose themselves as the employers of a shadowteam. If they do not, they pay in nuyen using the standard pay rates."
pg132, Corporate Download. "Lanier has even taken to capturing runners who engage in ops against Novatech, then making a bid for their services and turning them against their former employers." Meaning the runners pretty well know they work for Novatech, and implying they know who their employers are.
pg137, Corporate Download, "Shiawase pays standard fees, and will negotiate for 10 percent of the fee to be Shiawase stock."
While Aztech and Saeder Krupp are pretty intense about hiding their identities from employers, other AAA megacorps are not so careful, and Ares is pretty open about it.
Therefore, while runners may be used for plausible deniability, there are several megacorps that the runners can work for and know their employer, thereby being vulnerable to infiltration and government (or megacorp) stings.
| QUOTE |
| To infiltrate a team with the intent of getting the employer would require you to predict and know who would hire them when. |
Naw. You can just release a few company men...or, heck, even hire shadowrunners...to join a shadowteam, and see what intel they turn up from the shadows.
Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jun 3 2004, 11:48 PM
| QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jun 3 2004, 12:30 PM) |
| Sprawl Survival Guide states, and I completely agree with it, that undercover agents infiltrating runner teams are very, very unlikely. It's just way too difficult and dangerous. The risk of getting killed is really quite high, plus the work required to pull it off successfully isn't worth it. |
Well, that's true in general, isn't it? I mean, runner teams aren't unique in this particular venture.
BTW, why in the hell would the FBI give a rip about a runner team?
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 3 2004, 11:59 PM
Yeah, I mean if you think about it most of the crimes a typical runner team performs is on extraterritorial land, where the FBI have no jurisdiction.
If it was on mega property would that be the NSA or CIA instead of the FBI?
Posted by: Siege Jun 4 2004, 12:18 AM
I guess it depends on what the runner team did -- the FBI doesn't really care about catching every car thief in the country.
If that car thief has a habit of scattering the body parts of his victims out of the window while he drives, on the other hand...
-Siege
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 4 2004, 12:33 AM
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| BTW, why in the hell would the FBI give a rip about a runner team? |
Well, yeah, shadowrunners might do crimes outside of FBI jurisdiction, but not always. After all, the runners are hired for those dirty deeds that the megacorp wants a measure of deniability about, correct?
So, to the FBI (or megacorp), the runners become a means to an end. For example:
*Infiltrating a shadowteam, or having agents pose as/BE runners is a GREAT form of counter-intelligence for megacorps
*Infiltrating a shadowteam answers questions like, "Who hired them?" and "Is anything naughty being done in [faction X's] jurisdiction"?
Any competent megacorp security branch will have counter-intelligence watching for shadowruns. An excellent way to do it is make some agents runners, or vice versa. The FBI might also be watching for shadowruns - are runners trying to launch a data steal or extraction against some key gubmint project?
Posted by: Warmaster Lah Jun 4 2004, 01:33 AM
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Infiltrating a team wont happen. First its like really hard. Second, infiltrating the team gets you nothing because theyre not connected to their emplyoers, thats like the point of using runners. To infiltrate a team with the intent of getting the employer would require you to predict and know who would hire them when. And to get the team itself its easier to use more normal means. Someone on the team betraying them is a total other story. Thats plausaible and makes complete sense. Selling them out for whatever reason by a npc contact or member is a real risk of shadow work. Incidently, if your team doesnt care who sees them and is sloppy, how the hell are they a) alive and b) still getting jobs. Might want to hit them with the logical-gm-stick before you break out the backstabbing-player-stick.... |
Well infiltrating a team could be a really really detailed shadowop. Say infiltrate a team. Sure collect info on the shadows in the mean time, you know make yourself useful. Then somewhere down the line manipulate the team into going on somekind of "Run of the Century," and while thats going down the spy acomplishes the real objective all while framming the team and escaping or something.
Still to farfetched though, unless the corp was planning that one job months or years in advance. And even then it is still flimsy, unless its SK getting revenge on the team or something.
Heres another one though, Maybe the infiltrator isn't really trying to shaft the runners. Maybe they have infiltrated the team to "look after" one of the team members. Like a lost heir or the Presidents illegitimate daughter.
Maybe the spy still gets outed. Leading to distrust of two people affiliated with the team. I dont know...just fishin.
Posted by: Number 6 Jun 4 2004, 01:40 AM
| QUOTE (Warmaster Lah) |
| Well infiltrating a team could be a really really detailed shadowop. Say infiltrate a team. Sure collect info on the shadows in the mean time, you know make yourself useful. Then somewhere down the line manipulate the team into going on somekind of "Run of the Century," and while thats going down the spy acomplishes the real objective all while framming the team and escaping or something. Still to farfetched though, unless the corp was planning that one job months or years in advance. And even then it is still flimsy, unless its SK getting revenge on the team or something. Heres another one though, Maybe the infiltrator isn't really trying to shaft the runners. Maybe they have infiltrated the team to "look after" one of the team members. Like a lost heir or the Presidents illegitimate daughter. Maybe the spy still gets outed. Leading to distrust of two people affiliated with the team. I dont know...just fishin. |
Great idea for one of those games when you can't find too many players. Like a one or two runner team. Thanks.
Posted by: Panzergeist Jun 4 2004, 04:14 AM
I don't see why anyone would want to infiltrate a freelance shadowteam. A corp would have little interest, because the team could work for anyone and against anyone; there's no telling how long it will be before the team does a run that the corp would have any interest in. As for law enforcement, they would want to do one of two things: A) look the other way, because the runners aren't disturbing the public order, or b) kill them all as quickly as possible, because they are a "danger to society." There's no need to have an undercover guy join them, because you already know they are criminals, and besides, they're SINless; you don't need to prove jack squat beyond a reasonable doubt.
Someone might be interested in infiltrating a team for the purpose of a singe specific run, but that is almost impossible because runners rarely take more than a week between receiving a job and carrying it out. The only way this could be done would be if the players were creating a whole new running team with new characters. The other possibility is if the team is not freelance, but rather a regular black ops team for a corp. In this case, infiltration by a rival corp is perfectly doable.
Posted by: cutter07 Jun 4 2004, 05:30 AM
Platinum think of how small cameras can get now. In 2060 they could be all over the place. Everything you do taped and sent to LS. You could really brink down some heat on them if LS knows who they are and what they do.
Posted by: KillaJ Jun 4 2004, 05:43 AM
Yeah but couldn't they just kill the LS responding unit and get off scott free? 
Posted by: Arethusa Jun 4 2004, 05:45 AM
Just because canon states that, on average, you are on 3 cameras most of the time in modern urban areas does not mean those three cameras belong to the same people, nor does it mean that even one of those is a camera that Lone Star has access to. It's something to be careful about, but certainly not something that Lone Star can nail everyone with no matter what.
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 4 2004, 10:13 AM
| QUOTE (Panzergeist) |
| I don't see why anyone would want to infiltrate a freelance shadowteam. A corp would have little interest, because the team could work for anyone and against anyone; there's no telling how long it will be before the team does a run that the corp would have any interest in. |
Counter-intelligence operations don't work by knowing exactly what the opposition is going to do - if a government or corporate security branch knew exactly what the bad guys were doing, there wouldn't be much need for counter intelligence.
So you go out looking. You put people out in the shadows and have them fish for information, feeding any interesting nuggets and rumors back to the agency or megacorp. The people back in the office build up a picture from those reports and (hopefully) determine what all the other factions are up to.
Since anyone but a runner is only go to have second hand information of what happens on a run, and will never get the straight deal on what goes on between runners and Mr. Johnson, an excellent way to see what the opposition is doing is to plant someone amongst runners.
Maybe the agent won't hit jack pot, or will work for boring employers, but you have to start somewhere, right? A little on-the-job experience is a great pointer toward bigger and better "fish."
As for law enforcement, they would want to do one of two things: A) look the other way, because the runners aren't disturbing the public order, or b) kill them all as quickly as possible, because they are a "danger to society." There's no need to have an undercover guy join them, because you already know they are criminals, and besides, they're SINless; you don't need to prove jack squat beyond a reasonable doubt.
| QUOTE |
| Someone might be interested in infiltrating a team for the purpose of a singe specific run, |
Naw. Runners are just a means to an end: learning who's employing them, and when they're hitting the agent's megacorp.
Posted by: Drunk Lu Jun 4 2004, 10:29 AM
My opinion, a runner's biggest threat regarding infiltration are other runners with a lot of nuyen being waved in front of them. I do this on a routine basis, as I RP one-on-one with my troupe throughout the week (with a group session for the actual run once a week). Often times, this is extremely clandestine stuff (not necessarily snitching, but planting dangerous stuff, damage control, etc.).
My players had a problem with this, at first, but once they realized they could potentially make heavy cred and pull in serious favors, and that the downside was discovery and summary execution, they began to have fun with it.
Luckily, this was the same troupe I played a lot of Paranoia with, so they were used to backstabbing each other.
With regards to sloppy runners in general, unprofessional or incompetent runners in my games tend to die and/or end up permanently maimed in short order. But I'm reknowned for being somewhat draconian.
Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jun 4 2004, 12:36 PM
After reading this i guess some of you's are just against a potentially good story line.
But i did ask for your opinions.
Flame on.
Posted by: Siege Jun 4 2004, 12:49 PM
| QUOTE (Mr.Platinum) |
| After reading this i guess some of you's are just against a potentially good story line. |
That is, of course, supposing it had the potential to be a good story line.
Suspending disbelief is one thing, hanging it from the neck until dead is another matter entirely.
-Siege
Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jun 4 2004, 02:16 PM
This adventure is being written by the person who won the award of best GM/DM
at the Gaming Club at the university.
I am very confident in my mad skillz as a writer and GM.
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 4 2004, 02:20 PM
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Suspending disbelief is one thing, hanging it from the neck until dead is another matter entirely. |
Reasonable driving causes:
*Politician made some campaign pledge to lower shadow crime
*Politician got caught redhanded and needs to distract the public with eye-catching action (runners: great media attention getters)
*FBI looking to sting politicians hiring runners
*Megacorps are hiring too many sloppy runners and boiling over into FBI jurisdictions; it's time to make an example of some runners
Why these runners?
*They're sloppy and unsuspecting. The real pro runners would leave the infiltrator/turncoat naked, duct taped, and in S&M rig on the desk of the local FBI chief.
*If the FBI is going to make an example, it doesn't want to actually anger the megacorps, so it picks sloppy runners no one'll miss.
How to infiltrate?
*It's time to make a long-time runner, the one that was captured in FBI HQ, cough up that favor he owes. He's got the shadow rep, the skills, the toys, and would be a welcome addition to any shadowteam.
*The team is hired for a run by a new Mr. Johnson (FBI plant) for a minor (real) run against the Mob, Yaks, a minor Triad, etc. Mr. Johnson has hired a few other runners who the team will work with. Meet Mr. Turncoat. (This is where the team gets to know and trust the agent.)
*After several more runs with the team, the agent is well on his way into the shadow world to carry out his mission (see Driving Causes).
*Or it's time to spring the sting on the sloppy runners and drag them in, so the politician, FBI, and/or whoever else can make their point (see Driving Causes).
Posted by: Siege Jun 4 2004, 02:33 PM
If you refer to his original post Cray, he specified "infiltrate the group."
All of your points are valid and plausible, although having a Johnson hang a runner group out to dry doesn't qualify as "infiltrating" the group. It is, however, an occupational hazard.
And I did suggest earlier that "turning" a PC would be more plausible then sliding a turncoat into a relatively tight-knit group.
Unless, of course, the group never questions NPCs hired -- at which point, the entire scenario becomes feasible.
Alternative plot hook: Johnson (fake) hires group for job that requires special skills. They find a new runner fitting the bill (plant) and hire him on.
-Siege
Posted by: Nikoli Jun 4 2004, 02:38 PM
That is usually how those brave souls get planted. Team A needs skill set D, they put the word out they are recruiting, FBI says to 'Fixer' X, tell them to hire Plant B or we'll make sure you don't fix anything again, 'cept dinner in prison. Team A hires Plant B on word of Fixer X.
Solve for Y
Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jun 4 2004, 02:39 PM
74 man thats some fat Idea's, if you don't mind i would liek to use one of your motives.
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 4 2004, 04:37 PM
| QUOTE (Siege @ Jun 4 2004, 02:33 PM) |
| If you refer to his original post Cray, he specified "infiltrate the group." |
And I just gave reasons on how and why to infiltrate a group, just as Mr. Platinum was asking about in his OP.
| QUOTE |
| All of your points are valid and plausible, although having a Johnson hang a runner group out to dry doesn't qualify as "infiltrating" the group. It is, however, an occupational hazard. |
The Mr. Johnson step I suggested was one of the methods of infiltrating the group - infiltration is not necessarily a job for the infiltrator alone.
| QUOTE |
| And I did suggest earlier that "turning" a PC would be more plausible then sliding a turncoat into a relatively tight-knit group. |
Is it a tightknit group? How often do the players switch through PCs?
| QUOTE |
| Unless, of course, the group never questions NPCs hired |
What NPC? The agent could be the new PC, like I suggested earlier. Let/give the player's character a "dark secret," don't tell the player what it is, and invoke it at a later date: "That dark secret of yours, Bob? You're an FBI agent."
| QUOTE |
| Alternative plot hook: Johnson (fake) hires group for job that requires special skills. They find a new runner fitting the bill (plant) and hire him on. |
That's about what I've been suggesting.
| QUOTE |
| 74 man thats some fat Idea's, if you don't mind i would liek to use one of your motives. |
Go for it.
Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 4 2004, 08:15 PM
Man, your runners must be sloppy and trusting. Wish I met them in my game, so I could shoot them and loot their cred. Because no way any team Ive seen would go along with it, far more likley is:
Johnson: Im hiring you to do this job. Its special, so Mr White has to join you.
Mr White: Howdy.
Team: Why are you selecting us for the job if we lack the needed skills.
Johnson: Uh, so I can send Mr White with you!
Team: Who is Mr White, why should we trust him.
Johnson: He's my main main, you can trust him, I vouch for him!
Team: . . .
*bang bang bang* *sound of footsteps*
*ring ring*
Team: Hi Fixer, we're looking for work again.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 08:45 PM
I gotta agree with white dwarf here actually. The reason my people organize into teams is the saftey, they do not subcontract extra persons, and if a run requires ability y where the team doesn't y then the johnson's a tard for not offering the job to a team that can y. It's in the johnsons best interest to assign a run to a team that will ahve the highest chance to complete it. Hiring a team that has to contract out to t people they don't know, trust, or havent practiced working with is antithetical to the Johnson's goals. Just IMHO though.
At the low or near street levels this wouldn't apply so much but as a group gets more competent and known it would be more and more prevalent
Posted by: Madda_Gaska Jun 4 2004, 10:10 PM
How about if Mr 'White' happened to be someone the runners were being paid to escort into a facility because he wanted some payback on his former employers (or for whatever other reason)?
In that case, Mr 'White' could even be their Johnson (or in this case, White). They're not too likely to turn down work like that- just as long as it doesn't look too easy or too hard.
As to your comment, Mr Basher, regarding competent runners being unlikely to fall for it- this thread is about sloppy runners. So says the title, so accepted it is.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 4 2004, 10:27 PM
| QUOTE |
| As to your comment, Mr Basher, regarding competent runners being unlikely to fall for it- this thread is about sloppy runners. So says the title, so accepted it is. |
Posted by: Arethusa Jun 4 2004, 10:55 PM
Well, I think there's a fair counter argument in that sloppy runners are not sloppy runners for very long.
Posted by: Siege Jun 4 2004, 11:00 PM
Drunk has a point -- players not used to backstabbing each other or being betrayed in turn may take such actions personally, beyond the context of the game.
-Siege
Posted by: Arethusa Jun 4 2004, 11:10 PM
As I've meantioned in a couple other threads that have advocated PC betrayal, it's not something for casual games. At best, in a casual game, it's seen as immature and obnoxious, and more often than not, it's taken personally and can create some unpleasant dynamics. In a serious game where people are immersed in the world and also capable of differentiating between what is in character and out, it's not a personal issue, but make sure you're playing with people that are capable of handling it on both sides.
Posted by: Nikoli Jun 5 2004, 02:52 AM
I've found myself in a position lately that a player may be put into a position to betray his party, not because of bribery, etc. rather it was the chance combination of photographic memory and exposure to a loop of subliminal message. I had the player roll his "resistance" to give the others a false sense of everything being okay. then, I spoke with him aside, to let him know what was going on, and what I would need from him. He only asked that the others havea chance to figure the problem out before it happens, which I'm cool with, these situations are supposed to foster fun, not ill feelings.
Posted by: Hunter Jun 5 2004, 03:02 AM
| QUOTE (Mr.Platinum) |
| Well alot of times a character in my group will be sloppy, not every one really cares obout if they where seen, or who hads tabs on who. |
Someone has probably already pointed this out, but you could always find other ways to deal with "sloppiness". You could try having contacts charge more for help, make comments about sloppiness, etc. You could also have johnsons offer less for the jobs and generally offer only second rate jobs.
You get the idea.
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 5 2004, 04:13 AM
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Man, your runners must be sloppy and trusting. Wish I met them in my game, so I could shoot them and loot their cred. Because no way any team Ive seen would go along with it, far more likley is: |
That with your group, if I GM'd, I'd ask a player to run a character with that dark secret I've been talking about.
| QUOTE |
| I gotta agree with white dwarf here actually. The reason my people organize into teams is the saftey, |
Hence the use of an integral team member PC as the agent.
| QUOTE |
| As I've meantioned in a couple other threads that have advocated PC betrayal, it's not something for casual games. At best, in a casual game, it's seen as immature and obnoxious, and more often than not, it's taken personally and can create some unpleasant dynamics. |
Absolutely.
Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 5 2004, 04:22 AM
Thats betrayl, not infiltration then. Which isnt what you said. Which are you talking about.......
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 5 2004, 04:56 AM
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Thats betrayl, not infiltration then. Which isnt what you said. Which are you talking about....... |
There's no difference. A new subcontracted runner, an NPC runner, a PC runner: when they infiltrate the team and finally turn on them, it's betrayal one way or another. It's also infiltration one way or another.
Posted by: Siege Jun 5 2004, 12:15 PM
| QUOTE (Cray74) | ||
There's no difference. A new subcontracted runner, an NPC runner, a PC runner: when they infiltrate the team and finally turn on them, it's betrayal one way or another. It's also infiltration one way or another. |
Semantics -- betrayal happens incidentally. Infiltration happens with the express intent to betray.
One may happen, the other happens with the express intent of causing the other.
-Siege
Posted by: Traks Jun 5 2004, 12:56 PM
I guess my team would take even Santa Claus in team, doing run in middle of summer. But then I specially selected them.
More on topic - yes, for normal team it take a lot of time to "accept" new member. While it is possible some corporation is interested in their loyalty and "right" jobs, it may happen only to best shadowrun teams. Sloppy team is no one's concern, because sloppy people die surprisingly fast. Like, defaulting to Intelligence when using explosives skill. FBI and other agencie's also would not take such a time dealing with sloppy runners.
Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 5 2004, 01:48 PM
OMG yes theres a difference. Thats why theres two different words in the lexicon.
Infiltration is the act of getting someone with the intent to harm the group, to pass for and become part of the group, so they can hurt it from the inside.
Betrayal is the act of someone in the group deciding to turn against it for their own reasons.
The former implies a group or organization expressing interest in the target group and a desire to manipulate it to their ends. The latter implies a single individual acting out of their own interestest. If youre infilitrated, you have an organization or guided directive to blame. If youre betrayed, its time to go find the individual that did it, and maybe ask why before you geek them.
In SR, Infiltration of a team is next to impossible, and very implausible, for all the reasons stated before in this thread. Betrayal of a team is much more plausible, but not neccessarily more likely.
Do not attempt to write off the accuracy of others comments because of your poor word choice.
Posted by: Omega Skip Jun 5 2004, 01:54 PM
Weird. I keep reading this thread, and I'm beginning to ask myself: Platinum said that he wanted to have an NPC infiltrate his group so they wouldn't be so "sloppy" in the future. In other words, to teach them a lesson. Why go through all this trouble with having somebody infiltrate the group when there's so many (less disrupting) ways to get players back on track?
The topic of this thread is "Sloppy Runners". Platinum obviously has a problem with them. But it's my opinion that backstabbing them like this won't improve anything, if it is done just to teach them a lesson. Reading the first entry,
| QUOTE |
| So in my Game i'm going to have and undercover agent infiltrate the group, be it from corp to goverment. Now I say if a group gets to sloppy i always have hell rain down on them. Now it's at the point where they have the FBI on them. |
I wonder what this leads up to. Runners have to deal with the FBI or some other Big Player. Now what? Will the runners be forced to work for them under less than favorable conditions? Wow, that'd be really creative, I've never heard this before. Or will they be hunted "just because"? Suppose that all of a sudden, your players experience a stroke of genius and reject the plant. What's gonna happen now? Are you going to railroad them into being hunted anyways, or are you just going to scrap your (potentially) good storyline?
I think that if you want to make your players be less sloppy, the whole infiltration idea is the path that would be least likely to yield satisfying results. Try to just confront the characters with the sad fact that if their reputation goes down the drain, no Johnson will want to hire them anymore. That's how it has always worked out for me: Characters screwed up a run? Salary goes down. Characters get their faces on camera? Salary goes down. And so on.
Aside from all this, I'd like to point out that if done right, having somebody infiltrate a team of runners leads up to some veeery rewarding adventure hooks. But that's not something I'd waste on sloppy runners.
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 5 2004, 02:54 PM
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Do not attempt to write off the accuracy of others comments because of your poor word choice. |
I stand by my word choice, and I rather like Siege's analysis of the semantics. You and I are obviously using "infiltration" and "betrayal" differently.
Regarding the accuracy of your comment, "Thats betrayl, not infiltration then. Which isnt what you said. Which are you talking about......."
As far as I'm concerned, I'm talking about them both. The infiltrator will end up betraying Mr. Platinum's group's trust to teach them their lesson of sloppiness. That is a core act of an infiltrator: gaining falsely earned trust and betraying it.
And as far as you're concerned...
| QUOTE |
| In SR, Infiltration of a team is next to impossible, and very implausible, for all the reasons stated before in this thread. Betrayal of a team is much more plausible, but not neccessarily more likely. |
...by the way you define "infiltration" and "semantics," that's probably correct. Funny how using different word definitions can change whether someone's right or wrong.
| QUOTE |
| I wonder what this leads up to. |
Lessons on being less sloppy, with some more poignant points than might be done otherwise. Like:
*"Oh, shit, he got into our GROUP"
*"I never thought of mind probing new team members before"
*"So machine gunning a dozen megacorp guards on UCAS territory results in the FBI helping the megacorp by trying to serve an extradition warrant on me?"
*"Hire a decker to do a background check on Mr. Johnson? I never thought of that..."
etc.
Of course, as others have noted, it has to be handled delicately because you are going to end up betraying trust of the players and PCs alike.
| QUOTE |
| Runners have to deal with the FBI or some other Big Player. Now what? Will the runners be forced to work for them under less than favorable conditions? Wow, that'd be really creative, I've never heard this before. |
So? Cliched plots are often easy to implement in RPGs because the GM knows them backwards and forewards, and has an easier time improvising when needed because the permutations of the plot are pretty well know.
| QUOTE |
| Or will they be hunted "just because"? |
Recall just how many illegalities the average runner commits:
*Murder
*Breaking and entering
*Illegal weaponry
*Illegal cyberware
*Illegal magic
*All sorts of statute violations: cross corp borders illegally, lack of licenses, black market deals, etc.
If the FBI wants to hunt the runners after infiltrating them, the reason may not need to be given - there's so many to pick from. But that doesn't mean they're being hunted "just because."
| QUOTE |
| Aside from all this, I'd like to point out that if done right, having somebody infiltrate a team of runners leads up to some veeery rewarding adventure hooks. But that's not something I'd waste on sloppy runners. |
For reasons I gave earlier in the thread, I think that a sloppy team is the perfect place to start with infiltrations. First, it's easier than infiltrating a hard core professional shadowteam. Second, it should be an easy stepping stone deeper into the shadows; burning the sloppy runners is just a fringe benefit. Third, no one will miss them if their rep is going down the tube due to their sloppiness. If the infiltration is being launched as a "sting operation" to "make an example" for some politician's benefit, does the FBI want to piss of the megacorps by infiltrating and burning a team of good runners?
Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 5 2004, 08:11 PM
Fine, just be clear that as far as your concerned, and as far as the english language is concerned, are different things. Which makes communication via a text based medium challenging. So when you start worrying about being right or wrong, youre missing the point. Say what you mean.
And if you think about all the resources and planning it takes to infiltate or betray a shadow ops team with that kind of coordintate effort by a larger power, be very sure you have some justification appropriate to the effort. Because its more cost effective to just buy them out, or pay another team to perform the job, or any number of other things. People dont sink years of planning and setups, and millions of nuyen, into getting a man onto a team to pull an inside job when they could just pay Bob the Runner 10k to do the same thing.
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 5 2004, 08:21 PM
| QUOTE |
| Fine, just be clear that as far as your concerned, and as far as the english language is concerned, are different things. |
No, I used the terms correctly, just not in the same way as you. "Infiltration" does not refer solely to Hollywood million-dollar operations with dozens of agents involved. It also involves getting Bob the Runner to join the team and, weeks or months later, betraying their trust.
Posted by: Shadow Jun 5 2004, 08:47 PM
I had a group who had been doing a series of runs against a division of Novatech. The guy running the security for said division wanted an inside man. So he hired another Shadowruner to work for him, and then used some street contacts to put him in place. The team needed some extra muscle every once in a while so they hired the guy. After a while he became a full fledged member.
Which made it all the more surprising to them when he turned on them.
Out of character, here is what happened.
We had a 5 players in our group. But I like 6 on a team. A friend of mine wanted to join the game and learn how to play it. But he couldn't play every time. So I proposed this idea to him, he loved it.
It worked great, everyone was in complete shock when he turned them over to NT. Made it all the better when they escaped the corps grasps, and ran into the guy while he was alone.
Sweet revenge.
So, is infiltrating a team possible... easily, and not nearly as hard as some have made it out to be. You just have to have a little imagination.
Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 5 2004, 08:53 PM
| QUOTE |
| It also involves getting Bob the Runner to join the team and, weeks or months later, betraying their trust |
Ok, question: Why would Bob do that without someone having a reason? Answer: he wouldnt. Which implies some guiding force behind him, and presumably giving Bob intelligence on the team, maintaining contact with Bob, issuing him directives, etc. It doesnt have to be a task force to be ordained by a higher power than the individual decision. But as soon as its not an on-the-spot decision, as soon as its a means to an end, youve changed terms.
As I said, the act of Betraying the team (which is what you, yourself, just said Bob was doing in the above quote) is a real risk. With or without any outside factors. The act of infiltrating the team for some purpose is far-fetched.
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 5 2004, 09:04 PM
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Ok, question: Why would Bob do that without someone having a reason? Answer: he wouldnt. Which implies some guiding force behind him, and presumably giving Bob intelligence on the team, maintaining contact with Bob, issuing him directives, etc. It doesnt have to be a task force to be ordained by a higher power than the individual decision. |
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. You get someone to infiltrate the team, not necessarily requiring a large task force, just some guiding force (an FBI agent dangling a murder arrest warrant over the infiltrating runner, perhaps), and he betrays them at some point. Or not - the goal of the infiltration might not be to turn on the team itself.
| QUOTE |
| But as soon as its not an on-the-spot decision, as soon as its a means to an end, youve changed terms. |
Well, sort of. Getting into the team is infiltration; turning on them is betraying them. The terms 'infiltration' and 'betrayal' apply to different actions. Infiltration is getting in ("to enter or become established in gradually or unobtrusively usually for subversive purposes"), betraying is turning on the people who trust you ("to deliver to an enemy by treachery").
An infiltrator is quite capable of being a betrayer.
| QUOTE |
| As I said, the act of Betraying the team (which is what you, yourself, just said Bob was doing in the above quote) is a real risk. |
Yeah. After Bob infiltrates the team and wins their trust, the team is going to be pissed when he betrays them.
| QUOTE |
| The act of infiltrating the team for some purpose is far-fetched. |
The prevelance of undercover police officers leads me to disagree with you. Infiltration of criminal groups is a stock police tactic.
Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 5 2004, 09:15 PM
Yes, the act is a stock police tactic, but the whole "criminal groups" part is where it screws up.
Infiltrating a criminal group, with a structure and agenda, conncetions, a MO, etc is all well and good. It provides a ton of useful information, and potential leads.
Infiltrating a team of SRs gets you two things, and Jack just left town.
Heres a few reasons:
- They have no structure or agenda. What they do and for who is entierly random
- They have no connections beyond a few, essentially random, individulas over their area of exepertise. If the cops (or whoever) wanted to get to Joe the Shadey Mechanic, they wouldnt do it thru is runner pal; who, if anything is *more* skilled and paranoid than Joe himself.
- Runners have no MO or ongoing operation or schemes. There is no gambling ring. There is no series of linked crimes. There is only what job theyre randomly selected for after the one they just did.
- Runners *dont* know who hired them, or why. Thats what makes them runners. The very fact they are runners, and that the infiltrating agent is posing as a runner, bars them from receiving any information about any specific employer.
-- subpoint: if theyre being hired by a mega, the megas are extraterrorial anyhow and the cops/whoever cant do anything. if theyre being hired by a non-mega, and just need info, its cheaper and easier and more effective to pay the team to dig up dirt than infiltrate the team hoping to find it
- The only people really subject to being betrayed would be the runners themselves. The lack of connections and associations is the hallmark of a SR. If anyone/organization wanted to get at a specific runner, theres again 100 better ways to do it than try to gain and then betray his trust. Plain old blackmail, for one, is going to be a lot easier to pull off and not subject to him finding out before hand blowing the operation; or buying off a contact.
Those are just some of what pops to the top of my head as to why its implausible.
Bottom line, your game, do what you will, but at the start of the thread you asked "what do you guys think" and "have you done it before". The answer is "I think its a bad idea because its unrealisitc and the players will think you did it just to screw them" and "no".
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 5 2004, 09:39 PM
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| - They have no structure or agenda. What they do and for who is entierly random - Runners have no MO or ongoing operation or schemes. There is no gambling ring. There is no series of linked crimes. There is only what job theyre randomly selected for after the one they just did. |
And...? They're an access point to the shadows. Counter-intel and doing footwork doesn't necessary involve knowing ahead of time who and what the criminals are up to. If police knew what the criminals were doing, they wouldn't need the sting and infiltration.
| QUOTE |
| - They have no connections beyond a few, essentially random, individulas over their area of exepertise. |
So runners know only 1 or 2 people, total? They don't even know the other people in their group, past runners they've worked with, or the names of other runners? They don't know their neighbors, or where and who their runs affected?
| QUOTE |
| - Runners *dont* know who hired them, or why. |
Utterly false for some corporations. I quoted Corporate Download earlier in this thread where it said some Megacorps regularly identify themselves to the hired runners. At least one megacorp goes so far as to pay runners with stock certificates.
| QUOTE |
| -- subpoint: if theyre being hired by a mega, the megas are extraterrorial anyhow and the cops/whoever cant do anything. |
False again. Megacorps are not limited to extraterritorial operations. They can be boycotted, subject to embargos, and all the other fun of annoying another nation. They can be smeared in the press when their hired thugs/runners do something bad, costing them sales and business. Their employees are not all housed on extraterritorial land. Heck, depending on the pressure brought on them, they can even be convinced to extradite a few scapegoats responsible for crimes on national territory.
It's all a matter of getting the evidence first, and infiltration is a good way to do that.
And other megacorps even carry less about the legalities than a national police force. They just need the evidence to know who screwed them over on those last runs so they can make reprisals, or take the offender to the Corporate Court.
If you want to play runners as implausibly perfect and able professionals, go for it. And if you want to play megacorps as invulnerable to reprisals from nations and other megacorps, go for it.
However, the Corporate Download contradicts you on how often runners know their employers and the relationship cultivated between megacorps and runners. Sometimes, in canon, runners are very much the weakest link and perfect targets for megacorp and government intelligence operations.
Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 6 2004, 01:56 AM
Access point to the shadows perhaps, but that has nothing to do with betraying a specific team so much as just posing as a runner.
Because players pick their contacts, they are essentially random, based in part on how useful they are to the character and the game. Yea runners know normal people, but so do cops. If you just need names and such hacking into a shadowland node or just bribing a decker is gonna be 10 fold the payoff.
While you may tell your players who hired them, and your players may even believe the Johnson, thats not the norm. It may happen, there may be a quote stating it, but for every instance where thats the case theres easily 50 where its not.
Megas are above the law, literally. If UCAS is dumb enough to boycott Ares, well thats their perrogative. But since Ares can just buy the land, and be extraterrotiral from the government, and then just use its own shipping line, seperate from the governement, moving things form its own factories, selling to anyone, etc etc... I dont buy it. If youre trying to say that an infiltrating agent to a shadowteam, who would then have to stumble upon some sort of evidence, which would then bring the government to start an all out war against a mega-corportation and risk the wrath of the corporate council... well then Im glad I dont play in your game, because to me thats utter nonsense.
We can just agree to disagree, youre operating on a different set of assumptions that most ds'ers. 9/10 times SRs show up, they are professional criminals that dont make mistakes, because the ones that were unprofessional and made mistakes are dead. Youre the 10th time I guess.
Posted by: Cray74 Jun 6 2004, 04:38 AM
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Access point to the shadows perhaps, but that has nothing to do with betraying a specific team so much as just posing as a runner. |
Hey, some team needs to be used as the stepping stone. By definition, they're that specific team that's going to be screwed over.
| QUOTE |
| It may happen, there may be a quote stating it, but for every instance where thats the case theres easily 50 where its not. |
It's not "*a* quote," it's paragraphs of entries defining how each AAA megacorp hires runners. I don't think they quite constitute rules, but the canonical ways that the triple-A megacorps interact and hire runners are described in the Corporate Download. That includes, in the case of several megacorps, letting the runners know who they're working for. For others, it's quite the opposite.
| QUOTE |
| Megas are above the law, literally. If UCAS is dumb enough to boycott Ares, well thats their perrogative. But since Ares can just buy the land, and be extraterrotiral from the government, and then just use its own shipping line, seperate from the governement, moving things form its own factories, selling to anyone, etc etc... I dont buy it. |
Borders and sovereignty are not barriers to manipulation, law enforcement, or exerting power. They're just speed bumps. I recommend watching CNN for a few days and seeing how one nation can get what it wants from another. There's quite a long list of techniques.
Posted by: MrSandman666 Jun 7 2004, 01:39 PM
Now just imagine having a corporate or government agent in the position of a fixer... That's the center of the web, right there. All the information flows to the fixer, most teams are hired via a fixer.
Granted, this feat is almost impossible to pull off since a fixer who's runners are regularly sold out to the government will not be in business for long and it takes a lot of time and effort to become a trusted fixer but just imagine the look on your player's faces when they find out their fixer - the most central contact for a team - has been betraying them all along.
It's a stupid idea but I still like it somehow
If you want to be really mean, take one of their contacts away due to their sloppieness. Somehow whoever is hunting them got hold of one of their contacts (preferably a fixer) and this contact, being a level 1 contact who's fond of his life and business, sells them to whoever is asking. This would be quite realistic, reasonable and painfull all at the same time. The fixer wouldn't get any bad raputation for this. He did what every smart shadowperson would have done and the runners didn't deserve any better. The runners, however, will take a heavy hit to their rep. For being caught and for getting a contact in trouble. Some other contacts may not wish to keep any relations to them because it gets too dangerous. They will only be offered low-paying, irrelevant or suicidal jobs because nobody wants to trust losers like this with something important and/or difficult. Alright, that's not really infiltrating the team but it would get the point across.
Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 7 2004, 01:51 PM
Man Im done with this thread. You just want it to happen no matter what. Politics aside, UCAS, or another nation, cant just up and start a fight with the Megas. Theyre too big, with their hands in too many pies. Governments dont work without commerce and you cant get past that no matter what you do. When you have something like Aztechnology making 60% of the soy food market for UCAS (or 40% whatever it is, Im not looking the figure up but its in C.Download) you cant just be like "oh, they are bad, lets setup detainment lines outside their stores". And even if it happens, who is hurt worse: the government which is down an entier megacorp and all its subsidaries and possibly under review for penatly (via other corps) from the corporate council, or the mega which is out one of 150+ countries to sell stuff in....
Posted by: toturi Jun 7 2004, 01:55 PM
| QUOTE (MrSandman666) |
| Now just imagine having a corporate or government agent in the position of a fixer... That's the center of the web, right there. All the information flows to the fixer, most teams are hired via a fixer. Granted, this feat is almost impossible to pull off since a fixer who's runners are regularly sold out to the government will not be in business for long and it takes a lot of time and effort to become a trusted fixer but just imagine the look on your player's faces when they find out their fixer - the most central contact for a team - has been betraying them all along. It's a stupid idea but I still like it somehow If you want to be really mean, take one of their contacts away due to their sloppieness. Somehow whoever is hunting them got hold of one of their contacts (preferably a fixer) and this contact, being a level 1 contact who's fond of his life and business, sells them to whoever is asking. This would be quite realistic, reasonable and painfull all at the same time. The fixer wouldn't get any bad raputation for this. He did what every smart shadowperson would have done and the runners didn't deserve any better. The runners, however, will take a heavy hit to their rep. For being caught and for getting a contact in trouble. Some other contacts may not wish to keep any relations to them because it gets too dangerous. They will only be offered low-paying, irrelevant or suicidal jobs because nobody wants to trust losers like this with something important and/or difficult. Alright, that's not really infiltrating the team but it would get the point across. |
You are correct. But the fixer may not remember them in the first place(read the rules). Furthermore, the fixer is an "expendable" level 1 contact. Just as the runners are expendable to the fixer.
And the fixer would get a Bad Rep for being caught by whoever is hunting the runners in the first place! I mean the guy in the center of the web being caught off guard, what kind of fixer is he anyway? Probably the runners are better off without him. Any contact that their enemies flip is going to have to be vulnerable - a mechanic or a street doc or a snitch maybe... but a fixer? or a johnson?
Posted by: MrSandman666 Jun 7 2004, 02:11 PM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| You are correct. But the fixer may not remember them in the first place(read the rules). Furthermore, the fixer is an "expendable" level 1 contact. Just as the runners are expendable to the fixer. And the fixer would get a Bad Rep for being caught by whoever is hunting the runners in the first place! I mean the guy in the center of the web being caught off guard, what kind of fixer is he anyway? Probably the runners are better off without him. Any contact that their enemies flip is going to have to be vulnerable - a mechanic or a street doc or a snitch maybe... but a fixer? or a johnson? |
Well, yea, ok. The fixer was sort of an extreme example. A mechanic or doc or somebody like that would be much more feasible. Also we have to keep in mind that fixers come at different levels. Some smaller ones with just a few contacts may easily be caught. They can't possibly cover all the tracks, with so many contacts (human failability is always a factor) there's always a possible leak somewhere, especially when you're just working your way up the ranks. Some random thoughts.
On the other hand you _are_ right - the fixer is just as expendable to the runners as the runners are to the fixer.
And WhiteDwarf: calm down.
You're pretty bent on restricting this to a government vs. corporate perspective. There are enough other reasons why this would happen. Yes, it's not very likely to happen. But so is goblinization. It's only a game and it's all about having fun. If he wants an infiltration in his game because he thinks it's fun, there are enough ways to go about this. We're just trying to help him out with a few ideas here. I don't think anybody's claiming to have the perfect and bullet proof idea here.
Posted by: Lantzer Jun 7 2004, 03:11 PM
I would think that infiltrating a runner team would be kind of pointless.
What could the infiltrator's bosses get out of it?
1) Information on the runner team. Plausible, but why bother? The runners are nobody important. And if you can get somebody into the team, you already know enough to grab the whole team.
2) Information on their fixer. Possible - it depends on how much the team knows about the fixer. The whole point of a fixer is that he's the deniable 'agent' for a bunch of teams and a bunch of Johnsons. Of course, if you know enough about a team to secretly infiltrate them, you probably already know something about their fixer.
3) Information about the Johnsons. Unlikely - The whole point of professional Johnsons is that they are either almost as deniable as runners, or secretive enough that the team doesn't know anything about them. Or both. And is it worth the investment to possibly find out a few tidbits about random Johnsons?
4) Information about the biz. Possible, but pointless. It's easier to pay off a snitch. That's what they are for, and they will have a wider breadth of knowledge then your average runners.
Now, it would be reasonable to infiltrate a runner group if:
1) They worked regularly for a specific Johnson, and that Johnson was somebody worth looking into.
2) The group specializes in a particular sort of run or target, and foreknowledge of their runs would be useful in some way. It helps if the teams rep is such that they are likely choices for any job in that area.
3) There is a prophecy that says the group will be involved in something that the infiltrating parties are interested in. Notice that all three options remove a lot of the randomness and guesswork for the infiltrator's job.
There has to be a jackpot proportionate to the risks involved. When the cops infiltrate a drug ring, they do so in the hopes of taking down the whole damn ring, because the ring is a tightly knit pyramid with only a few important people at the top. If the cops can make something stick on a high man in the pyramid, the whole ring can come tumbling down. Now, runners on the other hand, are a bunch of small clusters of independents and contacts. Infiltrate a part of the network, and you get... A small part of the network. There's no organization to take down. So what's the point?
Now, beyond the question of 'is it reasonable?' there is the question, 'Am I, the GM, likely to piss off my players through metagaming behavior?'
Yes, it's metagaming. You see, when you try to infiltrate the group, you are relying on the fact that the characters have Players who are willing to stretch the suspension of disbelief a little to keep the game going. Do you really expect a new character to have to go through a few years of 'Don't call us, we'll call you', until the characters have a good in-game reason to trust their lives to this new guy on a regular basis? Of course not. If things worked that way, you wouldn't have a game.
The whole 'surprise dark secret: FBI agent' is a nifty idea, but be prepared for when the player asks: "If I'm an FBI agent, why have I been sleeping in boxes and risking my butt in all these random, unrelated jobs for the last few years with these goobers? I mean, these guys are _nobody_, and I've got a pension to think about. I think it would have been more in character to try to use that run six months ago to get myself in good with the Triads and get some real intel on the syndicates!"
Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 7 2004, 03:55 PM
Lol Im quite calm. Im just tired of trying to explain another point of view on a thread that doesnt want to see it. Theres little exchange back and forth, just "blah blah re-statement" so why bother typing. The author is going to use his idea regardless of how it stands in others lights. I could have some unignorable reason (like mind probe) as to why it wouldnt work - and it wouldnt change things.
And on that note, Lantzer, your post is very well written, and is basically the point of what I (and a few others) have been saying. That it could happen, but theres 100+ reason why it shouldnt, because its implausible. So when a reply happens saying "yes but I think it is plausible" just let it go. The little subset of 3 points about when it would work dont really apply to SRs without a special campaign setup (like youre not SRs youre Company Men). Suspension of disbelief vs suspension of reality... So yea, good thoughts, anyhow.
Posted by: Dice Jun 7 2004, 04:09 PM
It might be of intereset to some to know that for the last 3 or so years (since i first started playing shadowrun) my character Dice is an agent of a special ops division of the NSA (with appropriate Dark Secret. Oh, and I knew I was and agent from the get go... just because its a dark secret it doesn't mean the *you* don't know it... just that if it became public knowledge it would be.... ummmm... sub-optimal). I joined an existing team of runners as I was a decker (well, decker/covert ops type) but have now moved more into rigging (we got a shed-load of deltaware upgrades made available to us after a time-travelling adventure led us to greatly helping Lofwyr back in Earthdawn times.... He repaid his debt with 5 Million 
of upgrades when we got back... oh, and we got a brucie bonus mysterious cyberware flaw for free too... doh!)
Anyway, long story short, after many missions I ended up having to reveal to the runners that I was an NSA agent, but that all I was passing back to the NSA was details on our Johnsons and Targets. My superiors were basically interested in what the various corps were up to and who was making plays on whom over what etc. They were uninterested in the runners, and were basically just acting as a silent Johnson using the runners (and me) as deniable assets just like any other corp.
Put that way the runners, with some misgivings, accepted the situation, especially as my NSA contacts had got our butts out alive from runs turned sour a few times.
Unlike many games of SR are apparently run, there is little inter-party conflict or betrayal, though sometimes I do have to wrestle with conflicts of interest, but I can usually find a suitable compromise solution.
Posted by: Nightwire Jun 8 2004, 02:48 AM
Might I suggest that a less problematic way to make their life hell would be to "tag" them. If they are sloppy, then they are leaving biologic telltales behind for any enterprising tracking mage, be it corporate employee, legal afficianado or simple bounty hunter.
Another thought; how often do they check themselves for RFID tags? Last I checked Mitsuhama made some dynamite little flea-sized drones. Or if you're really evil they could be nanite-sized, breathed in when they enter a specific area, only to lodge more or less permanently in their lungs like cigarette smoke. Getting rid of those while on the run would make an adventure in itself.
Are these evil enough, or should I go on?
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 8 2004, 04:04 AM
Heck, the mole could not even know he's a mole. Screw mindprobe, Kidnap a sammy, give them an opticam, sound recorder and a GPS that tansmits through a phone or radio, or just phones home whenever he uses his datajack.
Mysterious Cyberware is cool! 
Posted by: Siege Jun 8 2004, 04:21 AM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Heck, the mole could not even know he's a mole. Screw mindprobe, Kidnap a sammy, give them an opticam, sound recorder and a GPS that tansmits through a phone or radio, or just phones home whenever he uses his datajack. Mysterious Cyberware is cool! |
Yeah, but doesn't a sammie go in for his semi-monthly tune-up?
Oh, wait...sloppy runners. Never mind.
-Siege
Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Jun 9 2004, 06:01 AM
Might as well chuck my hat in there...
Firest, to all the "This wouldn't happen" "That wouldn't happen" folks. Pardon me, but behold the awesome power of my imagination. It's really easy to make up contrived situations that require anything you want including why or how a government agency could or would want to infiltrate a runner group. You don't agree with it or wouldn't do it yourself, great, you're entirely entitled but don't tell me someone else can't do it and explain it away perfectly rationaly.
However, I myself always demand party cohesiveness. You don't have to get along and you can get into fights and all that other fun stuff but when push comes to shove, you're a team. I'll usually throw in background story to make this cohesiveness absolute, I don't have time for PC killing each other, I'm trying to run a game where all my players have fun, obviously if one kills another, one of two isn't having fun now is he/she?
If you ARE going to have an NPC infiltrate the group, best be to get them into trouble and NOT to have them killed. Having them killed from the inside by a traitor is shitty. It's supposed to be THEIR story, not the story of how clever the NPCs are.
Personally, since I run in a 4 person crew, infiltrating would be rather difficult. We don't trust anyone except each other and I have an armade of spells to sniff out a traitor and yes, I will not hesitate to use one or all of them because that's why Monkey gave me magic, to use it.
*****
Strange man meets with team, steps out of shadows.
Legs is scanning him 7 shades of radar from the truck.
Nova draws two pistols, covers him and sends a picture of his face to Gauge.
Gauge is already sending agents everywhere looking for a match.
I will speak with him.
<insert amazing schpeel here for wanting to join us and us actually considering this>
Kong: Well it sounds good to me! Just one more thing and you can join us!
Agent: What thing is that?
Kong: I'm gonna cast compel truth, you won't resist and then I'll ask if you have alterior motives for joining us or if you were sent by someone, cool?
Agent: Uhhhhh I don't know how I feel about you casting spells on me like that.
Kong: You want to join us? I'm the mage around these parts. Be really hard for you to work with us if you don't trust me and my magic.
Agent: Errrrrrr
Kong: Would you like a 5 second headstart?
Nova: I should warn you I started counting 4 seconds ago.
Not really conceivable for mine or certainly many groups out there. We're all too paranoid.
Sunday
Posted by: Person 404 Jun 9 2004, 12:28 PM
| QUOTE (Sunday_Gamer) |
| I don't have time for PC killing each other, I'm trying to run a game where all my players have fun, obviously if one kills another, one of two isn't having fun now is he/she? |
This is not obvious.
Posted by: danzig138 Jun 9 2004, 05:09 PM
| QUOTE |
| Pardon me, but behold the awesome power of my imagination. |
| QUOTE |
| I'm trying to run a game where all my players have fun, obviously if one kills another, one of two isn't having fun now is he/she? |
| QUOTE |
| best be to get them into trouble and NOT to have them killed. |
| QUOTE |
| Personally, since I run in a 4 person crew, infiltrating would be rather difficult. We don't trust anyone except each other and I have an armade of spells to sniff out a traitor and yes, I will not hesitate to use one or all of them because that's why Monkey gave me magic, to use it. |
Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jun 9 2004, 05:20 PM
Wow every one is going to work here, I like to thank you all for your input on the subject.
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 9 2004, 05:44 PM
| QUOTE (danzig138 @ Jun 9 2004, 12:09 PM) | ||
And that's cool for you. Just two weeks ago, I ran DNA/DOA (interesting adventure BTW). I normally have five players, but one of them has missed out on the first four runs due to work but he made it finally for this one. We brought his character in, and the others accepted him. No real questions, no magical screening, no background checks with contacts; nothing. Some groups just aren't as paranoid as they should be, and at some point in time, I think I'm obligated to enforce the atmosphere of SR by using this acceptance against them. |
This could be unconscious OoC acting, you know. They know it's a PC coming in, so they don't hassle him too much. NPCs they'd probably hassle a bit more, or at least be more suspicous of. One way you could use this to screw with their heads is to "recruit" a friend, have him bring in a PC with Dark Secret or Amnesia or something and have him run the others through hell. They'll be sure to suspect new PCs (and, probably, NPCs as well) ever after.
Posted by: danzig138 Jun 17 2004, 07:55 PM
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| This could be unconscious OoC acting, you know. They know it's a PC coming in, so they don't hassle him too much. |
Yeah, I figure it's that. happens every time, every game, for years now. And more than once, I have done something similiar with a PC infiltrator, and they still accept anyone played by not-me easily. They just can't seem to learn.
Posted by: Number 6 Jun 17 2004, 08:24 PM
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Infiltrating a team of SRs gets you two things, and Jack just left town. |
That's not true at all. Law enforcement relies heavily on high visibility cases as deterance for other potential criminals. Of course no force can stop every single crime if everyone wantd to be a criminal. But going to jail is a deterant for a good number of people who wouldn't be so nice otherwise. Shadowrunning is no different. If people know that police are actively hunting SR's, quite a few more teens are gonna go to school and become a wage slave rather than risk 'running and prison. Without the risk of prison, the number of shadowrunners, and all the associated violence and chaos, balloons. Violence and chaos are bad for business,
This will have little effect on a group, who knows what they are doin is illegal, hell thats why they play. But to say that law enforcement gains nothing from hunting SR's is plain wrong.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 17 2004, 08:29 PM
Except that a large majority of shadowruns occur on extraterritorial property which LS has no jurisdiction on. It's no the same as organized crime, ext. A SR can have an entire career while doing nothing illegal on metroplex property.
Posted by: Number 6 Jun 17 2004, 08:40 PM
You mean aside from the cyberware, military-grade magic, heavy weapons and the fact that they could be millionaires with no reported income?
If they really wanna bust someone, there's always a way. Who do you think putting Capone away scared more, minor tax evaders or mob bosses?
Posted by: Siege Jun 17 2004, 08:48 PM
Punishment as a deterrent to others isn't as effective as all that.
Primarily because very few criminals ever think they will get caught or even stop to consider the consequences of their actions.
But the current US prison model continues to apply negative reinforcement in an attempt to influence self-corrective behaviors.
-Siege
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 17 2004, 09:14 PM
and since there's over 2 million prisoners in the US now, enough that if they were all in the same place it would be around the 4th largest city proper in the US... It AINT WORKING.
Posted by: CoalHeart Jun 17 2004, 09:19 PM
2 million prisoners out of 250-300 million american citizens. That's a little less than 1 percent. 99% effectiveness tends to count as 'working'
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 17 2004, 09:30 PM
You consider having 1 out of 100 people in the US incarcerated working? That rate is far, far from good.
Oh yeah! http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_pri_cap
About 6 times higher than the UK.
Posted by: Xirces Jun 18 2004, 03:58 PM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| You consider having 1 out of 100 people in the US incarcerated working? That rate is far, far from good. Oh yeah! http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_pri_cap About 6 times higher than the UK. |
And our prison system sucks.
The trouble with prisons is that the wrong people get stuck in there. I almost feel like quoting System of a Down...
But I won't because quoting pop culture on DS makes baby Jesus cry.
(assuming SOAD can be counted as pop culture, I know The Simpsons can)
Anyway.
Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jun 18 2004, 06:58 PM
| QUOTE (CoalHeart @ Jun 17 2004, 02:19 PM) |
| 2 million prisoners out of 250-300 million american citizens. That's a little less than 1 percent. 99% effectiveness tends to count as 'working' |
Ah, but you are forgetting the other 6-7 million people on parole or probation who also live under the thumb of the correctional system.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 18 2004, 08:07 PM
I'm not forgetting, that's why I said "prisoners" =)
Posted by: CoalHeart Jun 18 2004, 09:00 PM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| You consider having 1 out of 100 people in the US incarcerated working? That rate is far, far from good. |
Maybe I look too much into the optimistic side of things, but...
I personally think it's good. But then again I also vote for reducing prison population by forcing prisoners to brutally fight and kill eachother in gladitorial combat on PayPerView tv.
You're still not looking at the big picture. 99 % of all americans are 'Good' people. So the majority wins. Screw that 1 % they're not adding to the moral fabric, or prosperity of this country.
What I do think we need are better laws. Prisons themselves work fine. The laws themselves need work.
Er.... No Don't get on my case about this Political opinons shouldn't be posted on boards because it's massive flame bait.
Now if they could only make Windows work 99% of the time that would be a miracle.
So anyways Back on topic.
'Punishing' your players for being sloppy is a good thing. It reminds them to be more professional. But always give them an out. Turn sides, snitch on a J, take some sort of suicide job.
Just like all things in life, you take the good with the bad... and that bad sometimes feels so good.
Posted by: tisoz Jun 18 2004, 09:57 PM
The last tabletop game I was in managed to meet about once a month for 2-4 hours. Over half the original players changed characters. 3 new players came and went.
What does this have to do with anything? We didn't have time to grill every new character. We would never have gotten anywhere. No one was interested in exploring this facet of the game. Were we sloppy? Probably. But when there was legwork that pertained to the task at hand, we were pretty thorough. It could be assumed we were as thorough in checking out the new characters, but didn't roll it out. In other words, checking out the new guy was done behind the scenes.
Every time I see a GM pull some little trick that only succeeds because of suspension of disbelief, that suspension of disbelief is gone. From then to eternity, every time the situation is repeated the game grinds to a halt while the players make sure they don't get screwed again.
In a current PbP game, I would be making checks about every scene change and in between, but how long do you do it before it becomes tedious and a distraction? Do you make a list of things your character always does and checks? What if the GM uses that info to put you in a situation where you obviously wouldn't do something and then punishes you because in the same post they explain you already did it? There are too many ways for a GM to make the game interesting without resorting to punishinmg the players for trying to let the game move along.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 18 2004, 10:27 PM
| QUOTE |
| You're still not looking at the big picture. 99 % of all americans are 'Good' people. So the majority wins. Screw that 1 % they're not adding to the moral fabric, or prosperity of this country. |
| QUOTE |
| What I do think we need are better laws. Prisons themselves work fine. The laws themselves need work. |
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