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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Coolness factors and weapons

Posted by: Die blaue Reiterin Jun 4 2004, 10:59 PM

The title says it all. Does all or some of the players in your game have a strong bias for a specific weapon ?

In my gaming group, some of the players are really fond on katanas ( and now that they've seen kill bill, I just don't want to think about it ). Sometime, they just won't stop telling you how good and cool katanas are... Anybody in the same situation ?

Posted by: JaronK Jun 4 2004, 11:19 PM

All my non-combat characters (riggers, deckers) go with the shotguns. They're versitile, and even with low skill you can blow the hell out of someone.

JaronK

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 4 2004, 11:25 PM

I've only played in one game and it only lasted a couple months, but christ, too many katana.

Posted by: Rock-Steady Jun 4 2004, 11:41 PM

Ak-97 and Colt M-23 Assault Rifles. Cheap and customizable.

MGL-6 Grenade Launcher.

Cougar Short Blade.

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 4 2004, 11:53 PM

I actively target people carrying katanas.

Posted by: FlakJacket Jun 5 2004, 12:12 AM

Ah katanas, the 'Shoot Me Now Stick'. Shotguns all the way over here.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 5 2004, 12:17 AM

Wait? A katana is considered cool? I'm always the last to know these things.

That said, I'm all about the shotgun.

Posted by: Hasaku Jun 5 2004, 12:21 AM

I like my weapons like I like my characters, compact and feisty.

Says the guy with a dwarven Adversary shaman and a penchant for P-90s.

Posted by: Adarael Jun 5 2004, 12:22 AM

My coolness-factor weaponry has almost always been as follows:

Under-Hand Spur - I.E. it springs out from the bottom side of your forearm, along the palm of your hand. Lateral cutting surface parallel to the plane of your hand. Nearly every cybered character I've made has had one of these.

Steyr Aug-CSL - Granted, in 3rd edition it takes four skills to use properly, but it's all about the total assassin weapon.

The Colt Manhunter.
We *love* our colt manhunters. Yessss.

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 5 2004, 12:42 AM

Apparently my face needs to trade his Ares Alpha for a shotgun purely for style points.

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Jun 5 2004, 12:45 AM

Gods, if I want a sword in SR I'll take a Katana just because it's better than any other sword but I'll try to get my GM to agree that it's actually a Shamshir, Scimitar, or Sabre (depends on the character design) and just happens to have the same game stats as a Katana.

Weapons I see the most are:
Melee: Katana
Pistol: Ares Predator
Shotgun: Defiance T-250
SMG: Ingram Smartgun
Assault Rifle: AK-98
Grenade: Splash with something horrible inside.

Rarely do heavy weapons come into play.

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 5 2004, 12:46 AM

I just have my GM make stats using CC for the NICW from Red Faction II.

Posted by: Siege Jun 5 2004, 12:48 AM

Hey, the Ingram Smartgun is a beautiful weapon.

Although for non-cybered critters, the HK MP-5 is a nice substitute.

-Siege

Posted by: danbot37 Jun 5 2004, 12:51 AM

there's the ever popular non lethal methods too... I've seen a lot of ares preds loaded with gel rounds, and then there's the super squirt's loaded with gamma scopamaline laced DMSO.

Posted by: Modesitt Jun 5 2004, 01:02 AM

I'm immensely disappointed in the shotgun selection in SR. Even with the CC, we have not given pump action shotguns or double barreled shotguns.

Now, if it hadn't been possible to make them with the CC weapon creation system I'd be REALLY irritable. I'm just really amused that the only 'break action' weapons in SR are a El Chiro shotgun-pistol and missile/rocket launchers.

I DO NOT HAVE MY BOOMSTICK, THEREFORE I AM NOT HAPPY.

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 5 2004, 01:04 AM

QUOTE (Modesitt)

No pump-action shotguns? I thought that somewhere in CC there were stats for one of the dual-mode gas-op Benelli shotguns...And don't forget the Street Sweeper! It's break-action, too...Although it's a ganger weapon and mildly stinks.

Personally, I want a made-for-troll break-action double-barrel firing anti-tank rifle slugs...Or just .700 Nitro Express.

Posted by: Modesitt Jun 5 2004, 01:11 AM

QUOTE

I think the RL Spas is a dual-mode, not sure though. We DESERVE a true pump action shotgun! The street sweeper also doesn't really count - It's a muzzle loader. I suppose we'll have to satiate ourselves with Reynen's work.

Oh, and I take back what I said about making a double barreled shotgun in SR. You can't. A break action gun can only have one shot in it(Pg. 74 CC). Later in that paragraph, it says that you can offset these reductions with Improved Ammo Capacity.

Improved Ammo Capacity only applies to Cylinder and Internal magazine. Even the CC rules don't allow a double-barreled shotgun.

Posted by: Capt. Dave Jun 5 2004, 01:51 AM

QUOTE (Modesitt @ Jun 4 2004, 08:11 PM)

I think the RL Spas is a dual-mode, not sure though.

Yeah, the Franchi SPAS 12 can be operated as a pump action or a gas-operated autoloader. There's a little button in the fore-end that closes off the gas system, for use with low pressure ammunition that isn't powerful enough to cycle the action.

I'd allow a 2(b) shotgun. Firing both barrels at once would count as a short burst, I suppose.

Popular weapons? Dikoted swords and Cougar fineblade long knives...

Posted by: mcb Jun 5 2004, 02:20 AM

It might be tempting to give a double barrel the damage bonus for the short burst without the recoil penalty. Since with a double barrel that has two triggers both barrel can be fire at exacly the same time thus both rounds have left the barrel before the shooter has to deal with the recoil.

Although not all double barrels can fire both barrels at the same time, double barrels with a single trigger have to fire one barrel after the other.

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 5 2004, 04:01 AM

QUOTE

All my non-combat characters (riggers, deckers) go with the shotguns. They're versitile, and even with low skill you can blow the hell out of someone.

Plus great for crowd control. Sucker those gang members to follow you throw a doorway, hall, or other bottleneck then BOOM!. 2 bursts of area effect 13D buckshot is good stuff.

Posted by: cutter07 Jun 5 2004, 04:42 AM

While the SPa-12 is a pretty sweet running design it has a major flaw. As such its been recalled. Heres the details

http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/FA_Recalls%203.htm#Franchi%20SPA%2012

FRANCHI
MODEL SPAS 12, SAS 12 and LAW, SHOTGUN

RECALL: Your Shotgun May Fire When You Take It "Off Safe"!!!

A limited number of SPAS-12, SAS-12 and LAW-12 shotguns, formerly imported by the bankrupt F.I.E. Corporation, may accidentally fire when the "CARRY SAFETY" (the large rotating safety lever located on the right front side of the trigger guard) is rotated from the "ON SAFE" to the "OFF SAFE" position.

Franchi urges all owners to immediately cease all use of these shotguns. Carefully unload the chamber and magazine, with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, and return the shotgun to American Arms, Inc.

American Arms, Inc., the Franchi factory authorized service center, will replace the potentially defective rotating lever safety system with a new push button cross bolt safety system. The service work, replacement safety system, and shipping are FREE OF CHARGE.

Send your shotgun carefully packed and insured via the United Parcel Service Company to:

American Arms, Inc.
Franchi Recall
715 E. Armour Rd.
N. Kansas City, MO 64116

If you require additional information or have any questions on this recall, call (816) 474-3161.

Posted by: Panzergeist Jun 5 2004, 06:55 AM

Monowhip. Ever see Johnny Mnemonic? But, honestly, individual weapons aren't nearly as cool as combinations of weapons. My ultimate baddass character would have a monosword weapon focus, a dikoted short sword, and a monowhip implanted in his SURGEd prehensile tail, and a pair of custom-made semiautomatic heavy pistols with homemade explosive incendiary ammo. And some grenades and c-12.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jun 5 2004, 07:24 AM

Nothing says, "Don't £^!# with me" more then a SPAS in my eyes. You don't even need a skill to make the other person scared, just a clip from this thing firing on burst and you become pizza topping.

And that ability is cool....

Posted by: Smiley Jun 5 2004, 09:10 AM

Scoff at katanas if you will, but if you slap some dikote on those bad boys, you're laying down a heaping helping of damage with every swing. And, like someone else mentioned, they're better than the other swords. Why NOT take one if you want to swing a sword?

Posted by: Person 404 Jun 5 2004, 09:13 AM

Actually, at least the way I interpret the rules, they're 'better' in that they're wielded two-handed, which conveniently explains the +1 power over other, (I assume) one-handed swords. Granted, people usually value the +1 power potential over the free hand, but it is there.

Posted by: Lilt Jun 5 2004, 10:04 AM

QUOTE

So, in your game, which weapon always come back for no other apparent reason than its 'coolness' factor?

Well most of these choices aren't going to be purely because of coolness factor. Katanas are about the nastiest melee weapons, Shotguns do a lot of damage... That there's game mechanics, not nessecarily coolness factor.

Then-again, it could be argued that katanas were given a higher damage code *because* of their 'coolness factor' with japanese fanboys...

Posted by: Xirces Jun 5 2004, 10:06 AM

"Katana: The two-handed "samurai" sword..." (sr3, p275)

When using a two-handed weapon with a single hand apply +2TN and -2Power (CC p98).

When using a sword with 2 hands you get +1Power (CC, p99), therefore swords are actually better because you can choose how you wield it and either get additional power or have a knife in your off-hand and get more dice... Plus, they're only half price.

I'm afraid anyone taking a katana is actually choosing the worse option and therefore is taking it for style and concept only, which is a good thing, of course, as we don't like munchkins, powergamers and metagamers.

Posted by: Siege Jun 5 2004, 12:13 PM

The fanboy factor is why I always opted for the Ares Monosword.

Although I gotta admit, the combat axe was pretty cool too.

-Siege

Posted by: toturi Jun 5 2004, 02:51 PM

QUOTE (Xirces)

I have always taken the weapon description for katana to be fluff. I have taken anything listed under the Two Weapon Melee Table (Primary or Secondary) to be a single handed weapon.

Moreover, I have also followed the Rules for Using Two-Handed Melee Weapons.

QUOTE

These include most polearms and most weapons with a Reach of 2, plus any others the gamemaster designates as requiring two hands.

So basically anything that uses Polearms as a skill or has a Reach of 2(or greater) are two handed. Fluff does not a game rule make.

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 5 2004, 03:17 PM

QUOTE (toturi)

Moreover, I have also followed the Rules for Using Two-Handed Melee Weapons.

QUOTE

These include most polearms and most weapons with a Reach of 2, plus any others the gamemaster designates as requiring two hands.

So basically anything that uses Polearms as a skill or has a Reach of 2(or greater) are two handed. Fluff does not a game rule make.

One moment... let me adjust the emphasis on your quote more appropriately....

QUOTE

These include most polearms and most weapons with a Reach of 2, plus any others the gamemaster designates as requiring two hands.

That's not exactly the hard and fast rule you're trying to make it out to be, is it?

I personally operate on the theory that the katana already has the two-handed Power bonus factored in, and allow use of it one-handed without the extra point of Power. Western bastard swords and other hand-and-a-half blades use the same stats and rules.

That's just my house rules, though... I suspect the nihophile fanboy bonus is the more accurate description of the motivation behind canon. That also explains the bo staff's nonsensical damage bonus, I think.

Posted by: Zephania Jun 5 2004, 03:58 PM

OK if you are going to start penalising players for useing the Katana one handed what do you do when they use it in one hand and have a wakazashi in the other as the traditional samurai did?

Posted by: Cochise Jun 5 2004, 04:13 PM

Savalette Guardian ... Dunno why ... I simply like it ...

Then there's the Uzi III .. Whenever a certain player mentions this weapon all players at the table get very nervous. Has something to do with an elven ganger with a SMG skill of 4 taking down two "Wolverine"-Clones (elfish and trollish cyberverisons of good old Logan) in two consecutive actions.
Ever since that day, the Uzi III is a feared weapon, albeit being burst only

Posted by: Xirces Jun 5 2004, 05:30 PM

QUOTE (Zephania @ Jun 5 2004, 04:58 PM)

OK if you are going to start penalising players for useing the Katana one handed what do you do when they use it in one hand and have a wakazashi in the other as the traditional samurai did?

Nowhere in the SR rules is such as thing as a wakazashi.

As far as I was aware (and someone will probably correct me) but the traditional Samurai primarily used the katana two-handed. The wakazashi is a companion blade, kept on the self for ceremonial purposes and when keeping the katana would be impractical or impolite - such as dinner at your friend's house. The katana would be left at the door and the wakazashi would be kept on the belt (a combination of "just in case" and a semi-religious thing - compare the Kris and the Sikh dagger (the name of which I've forgotten)).

Kinda like checking your heavy pistol at the door of the club whilst keeping the holdout in the boot holster.

Not that I'm a Samurai expert by any means (but the stuff I've picked up is from, what should be, pretty good sources).

(edit: I've just re-read this and is it Wakazashi or Wakizashi? - I've also used the latter but got a sudden crisis of confidence when it came to spelling

)

Posted by: cpcarrot Jun 5 2004, 05:41 PM

I was under the impression that the Katana and the wakazashi were the standard combination weapons of the time. Very similar to the rapiar and the dueling dagger of medieval times... The Katana was designed as a single handed weapon certainly and has no where near the length to justify it being used two handed... (It could be but from a purely fencing point of view this would not prove very effective). There was a larger version of the katana known as the Daikatana which was essentially a much bigger two handed blade which may be what you are thinking of...

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 5 2004, 06:12 PM

Katanas are hand-and-a-half weapons. They're short enough and light enough to be used effectively one-handed, but have a two-handed hilt, and can also be used two-handed, for extra speed and power.

And if you think that using a katana two-handed is not effective, all I can say is that you should try facing one in the hands of someone competent sometime. They don't have the reach of the big greatswords (have I mentioned recently that Shadowrun way overrates Reach?), but they're fast and maneuverable and hit plenty hard.

As far as I know, Xirces is entirely correct. While you can fight with the katana in one hand and wakizashi in the other, and it was done, it wasn't done commonly. It was worthy of note when Musashi did it, for example (Musashi also fought duels to the death with sticks, oars, and shinai, so he wasn't exactly a stylistic traditionalist).

Posted by: otomik Jun 5 2004, 06:55 PM

QUOTE

Sikh dagger (the name of which I've forgotten)).

Kirpan
For some it's very practical sharp and carried on the belt, for others will have it unsharpened and concealed in a way that doesn't allow easy access (activists on either side will tell you it's only one of these but it's really a mix).
Jot Singh Khalsa is a fairly famous knifemaker
You can sometimes see a similar attitude in Mormons towards firearms due to persicution early in their history.

Posted by: Xirces Jun 5 2004, 07:15 PM

QUOTE (otomik)

QUOTE

Sikh dagger (the name of which I've forgotten)).

Kirpan

Thanks.

I got a thorough grounding in Sikhism during my school days as it was (probably) the second most common religion at my school at the time, so the favourite for comparitive religious studies, but for the life of me I couldn't recall (but it was 15 years ago and I've had a heavy afternoon).

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 5 2004, 07:41 PM

QUOTE (cpcarrot @ Jun 5 2004, 12:41 PM)

The katana is a two-handed weapon, you can do some stuff with it one handed but it negates all the benefits, incredible speed and cutting power. I take aikijutsu, which has some katana kata, and all the strikes are 2-handed. The Daikatana is a creation of fantasy video games based on the no-dachi, a larger, very rare, and less well-made katana. As mentioned the wakizashi was a ceremonial blade, or used as last-ditch defence when visiting someones home (where you typically left your katana at the door).

The length of a katana varied a bit based on the time period. During the era of the feuding clans katana blades, and their handles, were quite a bit longer. The reach helped you in mass battles and the longer handle gave you more torque on the cut. Later, Tokugawa and beyond, the blade and handle became shorter since a fast draw became more important if ambushed, and there were less wars.

Campbell is right, Musashi is far from revered in many Kenjutsu circles, then and now. The two-sword style was/is considered 'unfair' and disrespectful to the katana. Musashi's use of boken for most of his career came off as contemptuous of his opponents, again was an unfair advantage since it was lighter and therefore faster, and also was much more dangerous than the katana. A katana could cleanly sever a limb, leaving the samurai some years of life or at least a clean kill. Boken shatter bones, almost guaranteeing a slow, lingering death. Musashi was the original 'samurai' min-max munchkin, and was treated like it.

This is all real-life, I don't really know what the intentions were in-game.

Posted by: Glyph Jun 5 2004, 07:58 PM

Actually, a normal sword is better than a katana if you use the advanced combat rules. According to pg. 99 of the Cannon Companion, using a one-handed weapon with two hands gives you +1 to the Power of the attack - making a sword wielded two-handed capable of doing (Str + 2)S damage.

Posted by: Omega Skip Jun 5 2004, 08:02 PM

Err... wouldn't increasing the power make it ((Str+3) M)? Since damage codes are (Power (Damage Level))?

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 5 2004, 08:05 PM

QUOTE (Arethusa)

I've only played in one game and it only lasted a couple months

This explains much.

Posted by: Glyph Jun 5 2004, 08:38 PM

QUOTE (Omega Skip)

Err... wouldn't increasing the power make it ((Str+3) M)? Since damage codes are (Power (Damage Level))?

Yeah, you're right. Got the two confused there. But that still makes a sword as good as a Katana.

Posted by: Cain Jun 5 2004, 09:27 PM

QUOTE

Oh, and I take back what I said about making a double barreled shotgun in SR. You can't. A break action gun can only have one shot in it(Pg. 74 CC). Later in that paragraph, it says that you can offset these reductions with Improved Ammo Capacity.

Improved Ammo Capacity only applies to Cylinder and Internal magazine. Even the CC rules don't allow a double-barreled shotgun.

Umm... Okay, point of order here. Specific-case rules always win out over general ones. If a specific example allows you to do something, then you can in that situation, even though a more generalized rule contradicts it. So, you *can* have Imrpoved Ammo Capacity with break action, despite the apparent contradiction. Since a double-barred shotgun isn't inherently broken, I can't see any problem with it-- certainly not in relation to what I could do with shotguns under the CC rules!

But to bring things back on topic-- the weapon I see most used for the "coolness factor" alone is the katana. Most everything else mentioned have excellent uses in many circumstances-- monowhips are good for low-strength characters, Ares Predators are so common as to be unremarkable (and untraceable!), and shotguns are way too versatile to ignore. A close second are machine pistols, which are generally used to spray lead and not much else.

Posted by: Zazen Jun 5 2004, 11:40 PM

I really like the staff. It looks awfully cool in kung fu flicks.

Posted by: shadd4d Jun 6 2004, 12:00 AM

I'll never forget my best friend's phys ad, ambedexterious, with weapon foci in both hands. They were knives, modelled on the cougar fineblade longblade.

Ouch.

Don

@Die Blaue Ritterin: Du weisst, dein Name hoert sich sehr kommisch an.

DAD, III

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jun 6 2004, 12:08 AM

QUOTE (Cain)

Umm... Okay, point of order here.

QUOTE

Check your Robert's Rules, there, chief. Section 23 clearly states that a point of order is only in order when the rules of debate have been breached. Had that been a legitimate Point of Order, then Zazen wouldn't have been allowed to make any points until the original Point of Order had been disposed of, but since your dispute was with the content rather than procedural nature of the shotgun argument, it was out of order. Sorry.

As a side note, I'm not really a dick. It's just that when I was in student government in college, I was Parliamentarian, and I was also president of Model United Nations. When other people misuse RR, I damn well let them know it.

Posted by: Sahandrian Jun 6 2004, 12:08 AM

Some of my players would prefer the katana, but I'd rather be dual-wielding some full Auto weapons. I prefer a FA-modified Uzi III, but the Steyr TMP works, too.

Posted by: toturi Jun 6 2004, 03:12 AM

QUOTE (John Campbell)

One moment... let me adjust the emphasis on your quote more appropriately....

QUOTE

These include most polearms and most weapons with a Reach of 2, plus any others the gamemaster designates as requiring two hands.

I believe my emphasis was appropriate since anything can be designated by a GM to be two handed. A penknife can be two handed, if so designated by a GM. The only in game keywords in that quote were Polearms and Reach of 2.

Posted by: Arethusa Jun 6 2004, 03:31 AM

QUOTE (A Rodent of Unusual Size @ Jun 5 2004, 04:05 PM)

QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jun 4 2004, 05:25 PM)

I've only played in one game and it only lasted a couple months

This explains much.

For the love of god, can you possibly grow up, you insufferable child? Must you jump at any opportunity to start a fight wherever possible? Do you think before you talk, or does this bullshit simply stumble out on its own? Is it within your capacity to please shut the fuck up with your obnoxious, inane drivel?

Exercise some self control and drop the ad hominem bullshit. You are completely fucking out of line, and I have had enough.

QUOTE (Number 6)

That's not entirely correct. The nodachi is not a creation of videogames, as it was originally an anticavalry field weapon. Its use by single individuals as a personal weapon, however, is directly a result of bad videogames and anime. It was not simply a larger, shoddily produced katana.

As for longer tsuka being an issue with iaido, that's really not very true. It varied more because of fashion and personal taste (and, to some degree, need), but shorter tsuka reportedly don't help on drawing, and many iaido practitioners have done and do just fine with tsuka between 12" and 16". If anything, it helps in close quarters, where a longer weapon is a liability. Certainly, in a time period with little field combat, that could be a compelling factor.

As for Musashi, well, in a lot of ways, he was a very similar figure, in terms of philosophy and approach, to Bruce Lee. And both men take a lot of flak, despite being very well respected as revolutionaries.

Posted by: toturi Jun 6 2004, 03:48 AM

Arethusa, relax. It would seem that RoUS is conducting a low intensity irritation campaign, going after him with a big hammer isn't going to work. Perhaps you could mirror image him?

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 6 2004, 04:15 AM

QUOTE (toturi)

The meaning of the sentence involves all of the words in it, not just whatever "keywords" you choose to cherry-pick from it to support your point. You're overlooking the use of ambiguating words like "most", which implies that not all Reach 2 weapons and Polearms are two-handed, and "includes", which implies that other things besides Reach 2 weapons and Polearms are two-handed, and the explicit statement that the GM can add anything else he wants to the list of two-handed weapons (that the GM can do anything he wants is always implied, so I think the fact that they made it explicit here is meaningful).

Your interpretation of that sentence as saying that Reach 2 weapons and Polearms and only Reach 2 weapons and Polearms are two-handed is not supportable by the wording. What that sentence actually says is, "The GM can declare anything he wants to be two-handed, but we'd suggest he start by looking at the Polearms and Reach 2 weapons." IMAO, the katana, which is explicitly described by canon text as being two-handed, is another pretty solid candidate, especially since that, by happy coincidence, agrees with normal real-world usage of the weapon.

As I said, I'm nice... I allow use of katanas one-handed with no penalty beyond loss of the two-handed Power bonus. It'd be entirely supportable by canon to enforce the full penalties for using a two-handed weapon one-handed, though.

Posted by: toturi Jun 6 2004, 04:21 AM

QUOTE (John Campbell)

Your interpretation of that sentence as saying that Reach 2 weapons and Polearms and only Reach 2 weapons and Polearms are two-handed is not supportable by the wording. What that sentence actually says is, "The GM can declare anything he wants to be two-handed, but we'd suggest he start by looking at the Polearms and Reach 2 weapons." IMAO, the katana, which is explicitly described by canon text as being two-handed, is another pretty solid candidate, especially since that, by happy coincidence, agrees with normal real-world usage of the weapon.

It is a Canon description, not a Canon game mechanic.

Posted by: JaronK Jun 6 2004, 04:23 AM

Well, if we want to just go with that discription, a whip is two handed... and that's rediculus.

A katana is a two handed weapon. It can be weilded one handed, but that's not how it was meant to be weilded.

JaronK

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 6 2004, 05:29 AM

QUOTE (Phaeton)

I just have my GM make stats using CC for the NICW from Red Faction II.

So you do. I still need to finish that…

~J

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 6 2004, 05:36 AM

QUOTE (Number 6 @ Jun 5 2004, 02:41 PM)

The Daikatana is a creation of fantasy video games based on the no-dachi, a larger, very rare, and less well-made katana.

No, the Daikatana is the creation of John Carmack's D&D game. It just happened that Romero later used it in a game (in said game, Romero caused the destruction of the gameworld because he aided a demon in gaining omnipotence in return for what the demon promised would be information leading to the Daikatana).

Edit: and yes, no-dachi are real. The Daikatana was the mystical "ultimate sword" of this particular D&D game, though, and as such is not a no-dachi, at least no more than the Rod of Seven Parts is a rod or the Hand of Vecna is a hand (they are, but they're also rather a lot more). Incidentally, as far as I can tell Daikatana literally means "large katana".

And I doubt that there has never been a time in history when a bushi tried to compensate for underendowment elsewhere by using a no-dachi in personal combat. I also doubt it worked very well, but people do all sorts of silly things.

~J

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 6 2004, 06:21 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

And I doubt that there has never been a time in history when a bushi tried to compensate for underendowment elsewhere by using a no-dachi in personal combat. I also doubt it worked very well, but people do all sorts of silly things.

I suspect that you'd be rather fatally surprised if you were to go into a duel against someone wielding a no-dachi expecting it to not work very well in single combat. Functionally, there's very little difference between a no-dachi and a claymore and a zweihander... and the Germans wrote entire books about using zweihanders in personal combat.

Posted by: Shadow Jun 6 2004, 06:37 AM

QUOTE (toturi)

Arethusa, relax. It would seem that RoUS is conducting a low intensity irritation campaign, going after him with a big hammer isn't going to work. Perhaps you could mirror image him?

Well he could, but Rous has actually played the game. Since Arethusa is intent on rewriting the rules and going on about how horrible they are, one would expect him to have some first hand knowledge of them.

I would think it terribly frustrating to debate the meaning of the rules with someone only to find out the person had never actually played the game, or at least such a little amount to be virtually none.

I am not saying he (Arethusa) can't know about the game. But come on, to propose that you are qualified to re-write the rules and you have only played the game once? Be real.

Anyways, I am sure you will come back with some whity retort like shut up.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 6 2004, 07:04 AM

You do realize that it's possible to get a grasp of the rules by, y'know, reading them? And if you've got the time to spend to run through dry runs with characters, you can get an idea of how they actually end up working?

~J

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jun 6 2004, 08:28 AM

One cannot understand the rules by reading them. Indeed, reading them is in fact an impediment toward understanding them. Do not attempt to understand the rules; rather, understand them. Zen is achieved not through taking the steps to perform an action, but through simply performing the action.

Oh, wait. I'm full of shit. Of course it's possible to understand the rules by reading them, that's what the sourcebook's FOR.

Posted by: Xirces Jun 6 2004, 08:35 AM

Someone mentioned that, according to the rules, whips should require two-handed use as a reach 2 weapon. It's pretty obvious that isn't the case since whips are listed as a off-hand weapon (cc, p96).

However... the same table lists the katana as a primary weapon (note the total absence of any specific two-handed weapons in that table) which would indicate it can be used single-handed. Having completely ruined my own point I'll go eat some more mushrooms.

It's pretty clear that, as with most of the rules, that the SR designers were swayed by too much popular culture to think about how things work in the real world. It's a sad indictment of geek culture (in particular) that RPGs, movies, anime and computer games seem to draw on each other for evidence of how things work and they merely perpetuate myths between themselves.

If it was written that the katana is two-handed and can be used single-handed with a penalty then some screaming samurai wannabe would be going -

"but, but, but... EVERYONE knows that real samurai used daishi so I've got to be able to use it single-handed, and please add some rules for using two weapons at the same time because then I can be like Drizzt. Cool."

Posted by: Adarael Jun 6 2004, 11:36 AM

Xirces:

QUOTE

I've just re-read this and is it Wakazashi or Wakizashi?

The crap thing? Either, really. Generally the more accepted way is 'wakizashi,' at least in terms of how common it is. But since there's no universal method to romajization, it can be either. And I'm not sure offhand what the kanji is, or I'd give it to you.

Arethustra:
I'd blame the popularization of the nodachi as an anti-personnel weapon not so much on video games or anime so much as Akira Kurosawa's 'Seven Samurai', due to Toshiro Mifune's character using one in that in his efforts to be a 'real' samurai - which, it should be noted, he most certainly was not.

Posted by: Lantzer Jun 6 2004, 02:41 PM

I'm voting 'Other' for the Ruger Warhawk.

For the Mage or decker with a low initiative and shooty skill, the big-arse revolver says it all. 'Like I'm gonna need more than six shots!"

Posted by: Hasaku Jun 6 2004, 03:09 PM

It's been a while since I've seen it, but I could have sworn he shortened his no-dachi sometime during the film.

Posted by: Zazen Jun 6 2004, 03:22 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

You get an idea, but I've found Arethusa to rely a little too much on those rough ideas. He's got the kind of personality that speaks too confidently when unequipped for a discussion. That annoys people.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 6 2004, 05:35 PM

QUOTE (Adarael)

??

Er, that didn't work. http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/fg=r/inline/jap/%cf%c6%ba%b9?TR has a picture of them.

~J

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Jun 6 2004, 06:17 PM

Well, the kun reading of the first character in that link can be either WaKi or WaKe, so you could also say it could be read as wakezashi. I'd agree that wakizashi is the most common and best reading of it though.

I'd also say you should be able to use a katana one-handed in SR without any penalty despite what the flavour text says in SR3, just cos I love it.

Posted by: Mystical_X Jun 6 2004, 06:50 PM

My characters always seem to have at least one set of throwing knives on them, but now that i think back i think that i have actually thrown one only once or twice. mostly i use them as a really small melee weapon (good for sneaking up behind and sticking in people)

I think some of their coolness factor , to me anyway, is that my uncle works in a circus doing the "Wheel of Death" thing. he could hit an apple dead center with a knife at 20 yards.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 6 2004, 10:58 PM

But can he do it at 15, 12, and 10 as well?

~J

Posted by: Mystical_X Jun 7 2004, 03:07 AM

QUOTE

But can he do it at 15, 12, and 10 as well?

~J

yea, but my aunt would never let him in the kitchen because he couldn't chop anything without cutting himself (and he tended to juggle the steak knives, but thats a different story

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 7 2004, 03:14 AM

That's pretty impressive. Being able to hit with the point from any given distance is amazingly difficult.

~J

Posted by: Noctum Jun 7 2004, 03:22 AM

I have to say that I'm fond of Twin Cougar Fine Blades, with an Ambidexterity 8 Physad, with Edged Weapons 6, improved combat ability(Edged) 6, and counterstrike 4 Geased. your swinging 15 dice on the attack before combat pool, and 19 dice on defence before combat pool. Now thats some nasty stuff.

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jun 7 2004, 06:42 AM

I gotta say, even if Mystical X's uncle COULD only hit the target with circus-grade precision from 20 yards and not from 10, 12, and 15 as well, I'd still be impressed. That guy's coolness factor would still be leaps and bounds above me, anyone I know, or anyone that anyone I know has ever met. And that's cool.

Posted by: Luke Hardison Jun 7 2004, 01:47 PM

QUOTE (Noctum)

Actually (and check my math) I believe that's 18 dice on attack, 22 on defense before combat pool. You get half your improved ability dice on the offhand, too.

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 7 2004, 04:37 PM

just to add some fuel to the fire, was there noe a modern swordmaker that made some sowrds useing classical europena designs and the metal folding used on katanas? i belive he found that the european styles swords performed just as well as a katana in the tests.

i do suspect that if europe had not moved on to rapiers and gunpowder we would have seen similar gains in metal tech as the ones in japan...

Posted by: Shadow Jun 7 2004, 04:50 PM

Hobgoblin, European swords (of an equal time period) are superior to Katana’s in everyway.

*gasp* did someone just say that?

Katana's are great swords, and very pretty, but they are the simplest form of sword. The blade curves during the folding process. It is a natural side effect of it. Advanced manufacturing techniques are needed to keep the sword straight, and therefore make it stronger.

Katana wielders (and by the way, Katana is the modern name, it literally means sword) had to practice for a long time before they were ever given anything more than a practice sword.

This was to make them better. right?

No.

It is because if you hit something with a Katana at the wrong angle you will shatter the sword. Contrary to popular belief they cannot cut through car, nor deflect bullets.

The greatest Katana's ever crafted (at least as generally accepted) were made about 200 years ago. And they were folded a whopping 30 times.

Anyone can find this out with a little research, I recommend it.

-Shadow

*hating the mythology around Katana's more by the minute, the truth is so much better*

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 7 2004, 04:56 PM

thanks for the info. who uses anything bigger then a bowie knife/machete these days anyways? combined with a gun with cilencer and your equiped for a nice range of silent but deadly takedowns

if anyone selects gear for style over useability then they are asking for a good stomping by the gm anyways

Posted by: Siege Jun 7 2004, 04:59 PM

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

thanks for the info. who uses anything bigger then a bowie knife/machete these days anyways? combined with a gun with cilencer and your equiped for a nice range of silent but deadly takedowns

if anyone selects gear for style over useability then they are asking for a good stomping by the gm anyways

Damn, somebody better tell the SEALs they're wasting time learning the knife.

-Siege

Posted by: mcb Jun 7 2004, 05:00 PM

Every time someone mentions sword use in a game universe were guns are present I always think of the seen where Indiana Jone shoot the swordsman. Swords are great in a good game of D&D but in Shadowrun they seem very much style and fluff. There seem to be very few incidence were the sword is more usefull than a firearm.

mcb

Posted by: hobgoblin Jun 7 2004, 05:08 PM

QUOTE (Siege)

QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 7 2004, 04:56 PM)

thanks for the info. who uses anything bigger then a bowie knife/machete these days anyways? combined with a gun with cilencer and your equiped for a nice range of silent but deadly takedowns

if anyone selects gear for style over useability then they are asking for a good stomping by the gm anyways

Damn, somebody better tell the SEALs they're wasting time learning the knife.

-Siege

heh, i see the grin but i want to comment that i see a knife as usefull but anything big (like say a sword or similar) is just silly to bring onto the modern battlefield. even more so to the urban one where concealability and flexibility is what you want and big items have a bad habbit of being very low on either...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 7 2004, 05:16 PM

They're quieter than even suppressed guns, they outperform guns at extremely short distances (extremely tight terrain would be the place for this), and they don't run out of ammo.

Shadow, not entirely correct. The curve of a good katana has some rather nice aerodynamic properties, so it's hardly just the effect of the manufacturing technique and nothing more. Furthermore, show me a sword as sharp as a proper katana that won't shatter when you hit something with it badly.

Katana are not the überweapons that some make them out to be, but they're quite nice swords, and in several ways outperform European swords (the reverse is also true).

~J

Posted by: Siege Jun 7 2004, 05:19 PM

Generally speaking, you won't find many scenarios where a sword is better than a firearm in real life. Although every once in a while, somebody does run out of ammo and hth combat is joined -- I recall a story in Korea about a company of men who learned bayonet fighting and successfully engaged a Chinese unit after their ammo was expended.

That being said, modern weapons and future weapon platforms are ill-suited to the rough-and-tumble nature of melee combat.

However, in SR, spirits and nasty things highly resistant to gunfire abound. Which begs why any sane person would attack one in melee, but there ya go.

Now, a good stick and/or knife skill set would be highly useful in a variety of scenarios, although learning those skills takes more time and effort than most agencies are willing to devote, apparently.

-Siege

Posted by: Shadow Jun 7 2004, 05:47 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

This is pretty much what I was saying.

The person I responded to said something about how Uber Katana's were and I was just trying to shed some light.

From my reading (and I could be wrong) the curve of the blade was 'left in' because the original sword was made to be used from horse back. And they found when striking down from the mount, the shock of impact was less, and they were more likely able to retrieve their blade, if it was curved.

If you look at most Calvary weapon (saber' come to mind) they are curved.

Yes Katana's are excellent swords. Is each and every one imbibed with the spirit of a 100 slain samurai and capable of cutting through metal. No. Not even one. And no matter how much anime says otherwise, it never was that way. Ever.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 7 2004, 05:54 PM

When it comes down to it, a katana is pretty much the Flechette ammo of the melee world, while western blades are the APDS ammo. A katana will slice through flesh and light armor as if it were butter, but European blades were designed to punch through equally masterfully-forged steel armor.

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 7 2004, 06:40 PM

QUOTE (mcb)

Every time someone mentions sword use in a game universe were guns are present I always think of the seen where Indiana Jone shoot the swordsman.

Of course, the swordsman's big problem in that scene wasn't that he had a sword and Indy had a gun. At that range, the gun has no significant advantage. The swordsman's problem was that he was wasting time showing off instead of just killing Indy. If he'd simply thrown a blow to the head, it would've been all over before Indy got his gun clear of the holster.

Posted by: Shadow Jun 7 2004, 06:42 PM

Accept that Indy was about thirty feet away from the guy, and he had a .357 with a 6 inch barrel. He could of put 6 holes in the guy before he got close enough to use the sword, let alone throw it.

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Jun 7 2004, 06:46 PM

Well as I recall the swordsman was a good 5-10m away at the time.

Anyway, in SR terms an advantage (at least for my character) of katanas and the like over firearms is that I can do more damage in a single hit than with any regular firearms (I don't own a panther cannon, but even so I could probably surpass that with enough drugs). So they're handy for taking out spirits and things when the usual full auto from your assault rifle does nothing.

Likewise for barriers (both normal ones and those created by spells).

Generally though firearms can take care of most of your problems.

Posted by: A Rodent of Unusual Size Jun 7 2004, 06:55 PM

The guy also demanded Indy's attention while doing the asinine flashy moves. If he had just charged, it would have been a different story.

Posted by: mcb Jun 7 2004, 07:00 PM

http://www.indygear.com/gear/guns.shtml

Interestingly enough it probably wasn't a 357 in the shooting of the movie or in the story. The above link talks about all the different handgun used in the filming of the movies.

Also Raiders of the Ark was set in 1936 the 357 Magnum was only introduced in 1935 so the likely hood of Indy having aquired such a new revolver would be unlikely though possible.

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Jun 7 2004, 07:06 PM

Just to back up Shadow some more and dispel even more Katana-Worship, the kind of folding used on Katanas was Stolen by the Japanese from the middle east, where it was used for centuries before them. Hence a real metalsmith will call folded metal "Damascus" after the city famous for it's folded steel blades. Even the ancient Vikings used folded swords. The fact is that we did see the same folded grains in the metal of many European swords.

However Europe didn't use the highly stylized ritual combat of the East, in Europe it was pretty much kill the other guy by any means possible. As such swords really weren't used much, Axes were vastly cheaper and just as effective for a grunt soldier, and pikes were quite superior in group combat.

If I had to point to a single sword as superior to all others I'd go with the Gladius. It was manufactured primarily in Toledo, Spain, and as such used Damascus-style folding. The Roman Legions carried it and managed to kick the ass of pretty much every other army they ever met. Part of that, of course, was tactics, but I doubt they were using highly inferior equipment in all those wars.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 7 2004, 07:20 PM

And the kind of propellant used by European firearms was stolen from the Chinese. That doesn't make it any less effective.

As for the gladius, I really can't say that I've seen anything to make me think they would be much to speak of. They were meant to be produced in large numbers and quickly, and that just isn't conducive to quality.

~J

Posted by: Shadow Jun 7 2004, 07:26 PM

QUOTE (mcb)

I was just guessing on the revolver. Do to poor editing he actualy uses two different guns. One is a 1911 (I think) in the scene in Nepal. The rest of the movie he uses a revolver.

I don't know if they ever made .45cal revolvers, but I recall them hinting that was what it was.

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jun 7 2004, 07:36 PM

The trick to the gladius wasn't superior craftsmanship. They weren't meant to be struck against other swords in a parry. Roman tactics mostly involved quick, underhanded thrusts for the kill, meant to go get in under the shield of the opponent and gut him (or her, those kooky Romans were always killing civilians).

Posted by: Siege Jun 7 2004, 07:56 PM

QUOTE (Shadow)

QUOTE (mcb @ Jun 7 2004, 11:00 AM)

Actually, according to the website it was a Browning.

-Siege

Posted by: Cain Jun 8 2004, 04:12 AM

While I'm hardly a katana-fanboy, it does bear mentioning that even the "common" katanas were made with the Damascus techniques. The "common" European sword wasn't, although their finest decidely were. Japan, being a relatively metal-poor country, simply couldn't afford to mass-manufacture blades like Europe did, they had to make the most out of their limited resources.

BTW, Shadow-- a blade folded 30 times would result in over a million layers. That just sounds wrong to me, somehow. Are you absolutely sure a katana was folded that many times?

Posted by: Capt. Dave Jun 8 2004, 04:18 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 7 2004, 11:12 PM)

BTW, Shadow-- a blade folded 30 times would result in over a million layers. That just sounds wrong to me, somehow. Are you absolutely sure a katana was folded that many times?

I realize that question wasn't directed at me, but I've seen that number a few times. It takes a great skill to do something like that, obviously. I suppose it could be done.

Sword, katana, take your pick. I personally, like the claymore. Or a lance, but I guess that's fallen out of use in 2060...

Edit: Hmm...dikoted steel lance on a drone horse...with heavy security armor...

Posted by: Siege Jun 8 2004, 04:26 AM

Well, armor tailored to have a medieval feel.

Bike 6
Polearm (Lance) 5/7
Edged weapons (sword) 5/7

Bike
Riot Shield
Lance
custom-tailored armor
custom-designed bike helmet

Delusion -2 (Searching for Holy Grail)
Delusion -2 (reincarnation of Questing Knight)
Honor bound -2 (You know, Chivalry and all that drek)

I see a poser gang motif forming here. Or an adept with issues.

-Siege

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jun 8 2004, 06:47 AM

You got the delusion wrong. Out-of-place chivalrous types harking back to a bygone era have delusions that cause them to charge windmills because "they might be giants"

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jun 8 2004, 06:55 AM

QUOTE (Shadow)

Is each and every one imbibed with the spirit of a 100 slain samurai and capable of cutting through metal. No. Not even one. And no matter how much anime says otherwise, it never was that way. Ever.

WHAT!?!?!

*jumps out window*

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 8 2004, 07:02 AM

That's not true. It was exactly like that on June 12, 1732, and on alternate Sundays for three months thereafter.

~J

Posted by: k1tsune Jun 8 2004, 07:23 AM

Muahaha. Just posting here to say.. I'm ba-ack!!
And I voted monowhip. Everyone wants a monowhip.

-k1tsune/Alex/whatever ya want to call me..

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 8 2004, 07:27 AM

"Such happy people…"

~J

Posted by: Bob the Ninja Jun 8 2004, 08:20 AM

I'd like to add that swords, no matter the nationality, could not cut metal armor. That's an important note.

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 8 2004, 08:37 AM

That's odd. My friends at the SCA are always coming back having to patch their chainmail. Historic chain also shows signs of patching after being cut open.

Some plate, sure. Hell, in japan they even made bullet-proof steel breastplates.

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 8 2004, 09:08 AM

QUOTE (Shadow)

An interesting combination of historical accuracy and ignorance. I'd say the rapier was the equal to the katana, but not superior. The katana weds an incredibly lethal draw cut with a speed near that of the rapier itself. The rapier itself is a very deadly weapon. I would submit that putting the tip through an eyeball, kidney, heart, takes at least as much training as a katana.

The blade curve doesn't have shit to do with the folding. It had to do with the way the blades were tempered. Maybe you meant 'forging' instead of 'folding'?

The katana did change. Originally it had a much different handle and was longer to suit use from horseback, though mounted 'samurai' (as they didn't really exist at this period) more often used lances. Later the handle and blade curvature was straightened to suit combat on foot. There are historical examples of many types of swords, but most were discarded because they didn't suit the combat philosophy of the time. Swiftness and flexibility were highly valued, so heavy armors never really developed. If they had, the katana would have been discarded. The katana was the perfect weapon for their philosophy, a fast, light weapon that when used properly killed quickly in a single blow. Take a look at some of the kata, they are 95% ATTACK with barely any emphasis on defence. Kill your enemy before he kills you.

You know why the best katana were made 200 years ago, and will never be duplicated?

The unique mixture of elements on the beaches of Japan. When forging a very little amount of sand would get blown onto the steel, which metalurgists say created possibly the greatest steel for that type of sword ever. Today the composition is different, especially with the japanese disregard for pollution control.

I agree, the truth is better.

Monstone Spider: Yep, the Japanese stole everything from China and made it better. Few innovators really. 200 years later they did the same with USA automobiles. Yeah, the roman gladius was awesome. Very quick, excellent thrusting AND cutting capability. I like the cavalry version for the extra reach. If i had to rank, i'd probably put the rapier and gladius tied in 1st, katana in 2nd. All fine weapons though.

Cain: Yes, there were some pretty crappy 'common' katana made. Quality varied immensely. Look into the WWII for examples, some officers had blades made by National Living Treasures, others had ersatz blades (stamped out from sheets).

QUOTE

That's a really good analogy for Shadowrun. Thx.

Posted by: Entropy Kid Jun 8 2004, 09:15 AM

I don't remember my sources, but I did read this. So much for establishing credibility....

Damascus style swords were made from separate pieces of metal that were heated, hammered, and twisted, then hammered again- not "folded." The twisting is where the patterns in the blade came from.

Although the armor worn by daimyo could stop arrows, the bullet stopping breast plates (I think) you're referring were imported from Europe. It had a name that translated to something like "armor of the southern barbarians." "Southern" because they traded at Kyushu. At some point they might have fabricated a local bullet-proof "vest," but they didn't originally.

If Lone Wolf and Cub can be considered credible, isn't Ogami Itto's dotanuki translate to "the sword that cuts through torsos" or something similar? I never heard or read anything about armored soldiers getting cut in half, but I'm not as knowledgeable about history as other posters are (seem to be).

I've seen pictures (read: woodcut prints) of samurai with large two-hand swords fighting, but I don't know if the pictures are being stylized, so I can't use that to say that no-dachi were used in one-on-one combat on foot with any regularity, but the imagery from the period shows big swords.

Posted by: JaronK Jun 8 2004, 09:26 AM

As a note... I think he meant swords cannot cut through plate metal. Chainmail is a whole other story... your basic axe or sword will slice through it with surprising effectiveness.

JaronK

Posted by: Bob the Ninja Jun 8 2004, 09:26 AM

I should have said plate instead of metal. Whoops. Anyway, the reason maile needs to be replaced is usually breakages in the linkages, not the rings themselves.

I was just tired of some people saying that a katana can cut through machine gun barrels. I'd suggest actually trying that. It'd be a rude awakening.

Posted by: mcb Jun 8 2004, 02:15 PM

Horse crap! I'll bring the sword you bring the plate. A heavy sword will easily punture any plate you could wear and still move in. You just have to get the angle correct and enought energy behind the thrust. In combat that is not alway easy but in principal the sword can alway be made harder and tuffer than the armor.

mcb

Posted by: toturi Jun 8 2004, 02:21 PM

I would refer you to the great "Katana vs other swords" debate over at the NWN forums that seems to resurface every few weeks or so (though the last one was quite some time ago, it is almost as regular as certain topics seem to resurface in this forum).

Posted by: JaronK Jun 8 2004, 06:12 PM

Obviously a sword can get into the weak points in armour if your opponent is standing still. However, it's very difficult to do... you may be able to bash in the side of platemail, but it's not easy, and a good opponent makes it much harder. You absolutely will NOT be able to cut through armour with a slashing cut, and it's pretty darn hard to pierce it straight on too, almost impossible with decent platemail.

In combat, most knights used their swords like overglorified clubs when fighting against other armoured knights... you'd knock your opponent down and then finish them off with a thin dagger.

JaronK

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 8 2004, 06:37 PM

It's really hard, though not impossible, to cut through plate with any sword short of a claymore or the like. The katana is actually really bad at it... the long drawcuts it's designed for are brutal against exposed flesh or soft armor, but tend to skate off steel. Western swords early on were broad-bladed cut-and-thrust weapons that had the mass and forward balance to shear through mail, and inflict significant blunt trauma through it if they failed to do so. As plate armor became more common, though, the swords that were intended to be used against it evolved to either huge two-handers that accomplished the job through brute force, or narrow, stiletto-pointed hand-and-a-half weapons that could still be used for cutting against lightly armored opponents, but were primarily designed for a two-handed thrust that could puncture plate (which katanas are also really bad at... they can be used for thrusting, but the curved blade puts the primary application of force out of line with the point, which, again, tends to make it skate off plate).

And, of course, mass weapons - axes, maces, warhammers, flails, and the like - which could defeat any armor were always popular. And spears, which have been the primary weapon of pretty much every military everywhere in every time from prehistory to the American Civil War or so, can punch through plate with relative ease.

Most SCA mail (including mine) is butted... the rings are simply bent closed, and rely on nothing more than the stiffness of the metal to keep them closed. Butted mail comes apart in combat, even against the simple rattan sticks that we use (insert rant about rattan's SR damage code). The rings aren't actually damaged, though... they just get bent open a bit and fall out. Over the winter, when we were having fighter practice indoors, I'd sweep up the floor afterwards, pick up all my lost rings, and just put them back in, bend them shut again.

Western mail in period was usually riveted shut, which makes it a whole lot more durable (though also much more of a pain in the butt to make). We've got a few fighters now who've started fighting in riveted mail, and, over the whole winter, I found two of the riveted rings... versus usually a dozen or so of my rings every week. Both of them had simply popped the rivet and come open; the rings themselves weren't cut or broken in any way. Cutting the actual rings is really difficult to do, even with real weapons, because you have to hit them hard enough and drive them in far enough that you're using the occupant's body as an anvil to shear the ring against. This is, obviously, not a lot of fun for the occupant, and you'll do serious damage to him long before the armor itself is actually damaged.

Posted by: Lindt Jun 8 2004, 06:37 PM

*gouges out eyes* Im sick of this, Katana, meet Ares HVLMG. Ares Arms 1 Fudal Japan 0. Dont bring a sword to a gun fight.

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 8 2004, 06:45 PM

John, I dunno if you do your own mail but http://www.theringlord.com/ is now selling rings with pre-punched holes for rivets. Now pretty much anyone can make their own riveted mail for a decent price. In mild steel, brass, even blackened stainless. Never patch, or have to throw your chain in the dryer again!

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 8 2004, 06:54 PM

QUOTE (Lindt)

*gouges out eyes* Im sick of this, Katana, meet Ares HVLMG. Ares Arms 1 Fudal Japan 0. Dont bring a sword to a gun fight.

Gracias.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 8 2004, 06:54 PM

Lindt: bring all the LMGs you want. I'll bring a pocketknife and kick your ass. The caveat is that we start with weapons at our sides and two feet away from each other. Melee weapons may not be universally applicable anymore, but they still have their uses.

~J

Posted by: Lindt Jun 8 2004, 07:08 PM

And at that case I have all ready failed to use my LMG correctly. Or I just club you to death with it...

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 8 2004, 07:11 PM

QUOTE (Number 6)

You must have a different definition of "decent price" than I do. At the prices they're offering, enough riveted rings to make a hauberk like mine would run you over $700, and would still require hours upon hours of assembly. I could buy an already-finished riveted mail hauberk from one of the local merchants for $500, and not have to put all the work into it myself. And my own hauberk, which I did put the work into, only actually cost me about $25 (No, I didn't leave a zero off that. Baling wire is cheap.).

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 8 2004, 07:22 PM

Yah but the tools required aren't, and I doubt I could do the chemical process required to make black stainless. I may need to get into doing my own anyway since noone sells the oval rings commonly used to join japanese 4-in-1.

Pretty cool you have locals that will do riveted, around here they all say the manpower required makes it not worth doing. Where did you get that hauberk? Do they have a webpage, and what gague and size were the rings?

Posted by: Shadow Jun 8 2004, 07:49 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 7 2004, 08:12 PM)

BTW, Shadow-- a blade folded 30 times would result in over a million layers. That just sounds wrong to me, somehow. Are you absolutely sure a katana was folded that many times?

I would like to point out to the part where I said I am not an expert. I have just done a lot of research on this subject. My reading suggest that 30 folds was the most ever done for a 'Katana'. Generally speaking it was between 18 and 24.

Again I may be wrong.

@ Number 6,
no need for name calling. And yes I meant forging. I didn't feel like going into an in depth post saying the entire history of sword making in Japan.

I already did that once, I am sure I could find it for you if you want.

Posted by: Bob the Ninja Jun 8 2004, 08:38 PM

QUOTE

mcb wrote:
Horse crap! I'll bring the sword you bring the plate. A heavy sword will easily punture any plate you could wear and still move in. You just have to get the angle correct and enought energy behind the thrust. In combat that is not alway easy but in principal the sword can alway be made harder and tuffer than the armor.

Try it. Seriously. I have done quite a bit of research on plate (and I just received my Masters in Medieval Studies), and I fight in it regularly. One cannot cut the major plates with a sword. Dent the hell out of them, sneak in under the arm, yes, but not cut through.

Look at late Medieval or rennassance fighting manuals (Talhoffer being the most famous probably), and you'll see what I mean.

Posted by: Cochise Jun 8 2004, 08:53 PM

He wants to puncture the plate ...
Obviously you are talking about different things.

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 8 2004, 09:09 PM

QUOTE (Number 6)

Yah but the tools required aren't, and I doubt I could do the chemical process required to make black stainless.

I may need to get into doing my own anyway since noone sells the oval rings commonly used to join japanese 4-in-1.

What, pliers and wire cutters? And a hammer if you want to do riveted? Yes, granted, my tools may have actually cost me more than the materials, but they were still pretty cheap, and I use them for all sorts of other things, too.

Coloring stainless I'm not sure about... I've always done mild steel, because the modern rust-proof alternatives simply do not look like period iron or steel.

QUOTE

Pretty cool you have locals that will do riveted, around here they all say the manpower required makes it not worth doing. Where did you get that hauberk? Do they have a webpage, and what gague and size were the rings?

I didn't say we had locals that made riveted, I said we had a local merchant who sells it. It's actually made in India, where the manpower required is a whole lot cheaper. That's actually the reason that I don't make mail for sale anymore... there are enough places getting it made with cheap Third World labor that the prices I can charge for it without getting drastically undercut are a whole lot less than I consider my time to be worth.

My hauberk I made myself from scratch, with spools of wire and a lot of work. The riveted ones people around here are using are ones Sir Karl got made in India, which he sells for $500 or so (price varies a bit depending on the exact type). They're available in stainless, galvanized steel, and aluminum, that I know of... all of them are, I think, 14 ga. wire, 3/8" inner diameter, and riveted. I don't think he has a website... if he does, I don't know the URL.

Posted by: mcb Jun 8 2004, 09:11 PM

QUOTE (Bob the Ninja)

QUOTE

I did not say cut, I said puncture (I even misspelled puncture so I’m sure there in lies the problem

). Plate provides excellent slashing protection but depending on the situation chain mail may actually give better puncture protection especially when well padded underneath the mail and hitting the target in a soft area, ie lower abdomen or over a large muscle. To defeat plate one simply needs to stab it with a sufficiently hard sharp pointy thing. A short heavy sword with a sharp point would work fine, for that matter a good 24oz framing claw hammer would put sufficient focus to drive the moderately sharp claw through most plate armor. I good pickaxe is always good for punching holes in plate armor also. It all come down to focusing a lot of energy on a small enough area since plate armor is very inflexible, especially on the larger pieces it cannot distribute the blow of a sharp point the way chain can.

mcb

Posted by: Bob the Ninja Jun 8 2004, 09:25 PM

Ah, I was misunderstanding you. Yah, the switch from slashing to thrusting/cleaving weapons is partially explained by armor development.

People often assosiate rapiers with this movement, but I think that's another topic entirely.

Posted by: Garland Jun 8 2004, 09:28 PM

Nevermind that rapiers were still cutting weapons and it was the smallsword that was the real "hole-puncher."

Posted by: JaronK Jun 8 2004, 09:55 PM

Rapiers were originally designed with the ability to stab a weak point in mind, so yes, they were for piercing. They cut too, of course.

JaronK

Posted by: John Campbell Jun 9 2004, 10:12 PM

QUOTE (John Campbell)

QUOTE (Number 6)

Do they have a webpage, and what gague and size were the rings?

I don't think he has a website... if he does, I don't know the URL.

As it happens, he does, in fact, have a website, and I have discovered the URL: http://www.highland-arms.com/