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Posted by: Cray74 Jun 6 2004, 04:26 AM

From the "Sloppy Runners" thread, an interesting claim was made and I was curious how well it compared to other players' experiences.

Posted by: KillaJ Jun 6 2004, 04:50 AM

My characters and those of my group are hardly perfect. I think that we do a decent risk/benefit analysis before most every "risky" endeavour, but we dont go overboard trying to plan for every possible contingency. We feel that for the sake of gameplay it is better to prepare ourselves equipment wise and have a broad plan that allows for as much improvisation as possible. What it boils down to for me is that it is far more fun to play a criminal then some sort of wildly paranoid planaholic crime robot.

Posted by: Beast of Revolutions Jun 6 2004, 05:02 AM

Umm, how does not knowing the Jonhson's identity make for a proffesional runner team? The Jonhon's anonymity is his own issue; the runners should at least have a preference for knowing more about him then he reveals. And no one never makes mistakes.

Posted by: Ancient History Jun 6 2004, 05:06 AM

Even Band Camp. You haven't GMed 'til you've an overweight died-her-hair-red Wiccan who makes a red-headed bisexual tech geek/Jewish-Wiccan sorceress-witch who plays the flute as her centering ritual. She was trying to channel Band-Camp-girl and Willow at the same time.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jun 6 2004, 05:08 AM

7/10 runners who survive realistic opposition for 3 jobs are professional. 2/10 barely know what they're doing, but take advice well and have good skills. 1/10 seem to be able to get 3 successes at any TN with only 2 dice.

Posted by: Cray74 Jun 6 2004, 05:08 AM

Posted by: Sahandrian Jun 6 2004, 05:56 AM

I chose the stupidest answer, based on things like...

Drinking contests between the assassin and face after every other run
The shaman spending half a run bickering with her boyfriend the adept
The ninja guy getting into fights with his TV, which is also his primary source of information
The rigger using grenades to open doors on a quiet run
The rigger never checking his bike for the tracking device no matter how many hints he got
The ninja guy wasting half an hour on a run hiding in a dumpster on the wrong street
The decker being a skittles addict
The decker taking a bag full of snack foods instead of actual pay for a job
The decker repeatedly trying to kill the cat shaman cause he doesn't like cats
The previous adept, Epoc, trying to hit on the people shooting at him
The general belief that Epoc was a clone
The gnome pimp: Gim-lah
The jewish ninja: Ninjew
Ninjew being homeless yet wearing Armani
Ninjew using his stealth skills to break into hotel rooms to use the shower
Ninjew using his social skills to get into classy dinner parties and steal food
The sniper tracking Ninjew across town and getting into a rooftop swordfight with him just to ask a question...

I know there's more, I just can't think of it...

Posted by: mfb Jun 6 2004, 07:15 AM

nin...jew.

*gibber*

Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 6 2004, 07:16 AM

Assuming that the runner is created from scratch...
Questions to ponder:
1. How many starter runners buy lifestyle?
2. How many starter runners buy hobbies?
3. How many starter runners buy contacts?
4. How many starter runners buy working gear (repair kits etc)?

9/10 runners are the perfect warriors...but have no life.

Posted by: Modesitt Jun 6 2004, 09:21 AM

Posted by: Adarael Jun 6 2004, 11:14 AM

Because I feel like a dork, and I'm really, really proud of our team, I shall answer questions.

Do your PCs always cover their tracks, perfectly balance caution and paranoia to avoid any mistake, and never learn enough about their employer to risk the employer's deniability?
That's really three questions, isn't it? In the order they were given: 1) almost always (sometimes, there's no time, when the unexpected crops up), 2) Oh, I'd like to think yes, and 3) We always TRY to learn too much about our employers. And it's saved our hide several times.

Has a Mr. Johnson ever betrayed one of your runners?
Well, a couple have tried, but none of them's succeeded - yet.

Has any of your PCs misjudged an NPC and got the group screwed over as a result?
We've only misjudged people with regards to their ability, not as to their general motivation. It's gotten things a bit sticky at times, but never out-and-out screwed us.

Have you ever had a run go bad due to PC mistakes?
Yes. Yes indeed we have. Several. One involved asking the Iranian governement to please, please, please deport us.

Have you, as a GM, ever been tempted to send LoneStar after the PCs for their mistakes?
I can't speak for my GM fully, but I'd say at least once. For the game *I* run... well, yeah, but they turned themselves in, weaseled their way out, and then paid the cops in question (Hong Kong City Police, not Lone Star) for their time. It was surreal.

How many LoneStar officers have your runners killed?
Precisely zero.

How many people do you think your PCs have killed on average?
Average per run: 4-5, because usually somebody has some psychopathic bodyguards that try and mix it up. And it's hard to get ninjas not to kill.
Killed total: Probably between 100-150. But we saved a lot more than we gacked.

When was the last time your GM made a perception check to detect one of your PCs' concealed guns?
Um... 3 runs ago, I think? The thing is, generally we don't carry guns in day-to-day affairs, because when we carry guns, it means we're usually actively doing something illegal. And otherwise, our guns usually have a total concealability of between 12-16, depending on the gun.

When was the last time you had inter-PC conflict?
Oh, usually every game. But it's never really serious. The last serious inter PC conflict we had only resulted in shouting.

On the subject of runners having lives:

1. How many starter runners buy lifestyle?
I paid the money for a permanent lifestyle, I BETTER get something outa it.
2. How many starter runners buy hobbies?
What, like, say, "Seattle Punk Bands" or "Magical History and Myth" or decide to join corporations because they like inventing things, or have parties and such? Yeah.
3. How many starter runners buy contacts?
Well, admittedly, we lack some of those. I bought SOME, but they were all rendered useless pretty fast. Except for George, because he's my college buddy.
4. How many starter runners buy working gear (repair kits etc)?
Do not speak to me of kits! I have SHOPS! Facilities!

Posted by: Sahandrian Jun 6 2004, 11:53 AM

Posted by: Traks Jun 6 2004, 12:05 PM

Oh man. Talking about topic:
There are two teams, in one are selected 9/10 guys, while in other group all are ominous "10/10 guy syndrome". So one team make runs professionally, while other fail them. There is not much point answering to questions

Professional team at last decided to take acid to their missions in case someone gets shot and spills lot of blood. So kudos to them.
Other team take guns to run when not needed and don't take when needed not mentioning that they do not buy any tools, they even don't use mobile phones.

Posted by: Sahandrian Jun 6 2004, 12:14 PM

We once forgot to bring phones, so we broke into the guard room of the corp facility we we hitting, called the J to give him a report on the status of the run, then dialed for pizza.

The "professional" guy in the group was rather upset.

Ah, the days when I could actually play and others were willing to GM...

Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 6 2004, 02:41 PM

Cray, remove the quote from me at the start of this thread, youre taking it out of context. Every canon instance I can think of (examples in the book, novels, etc), one of three things happened. 1) It was the pentultimate professional, like Ryan Mercury or Talon, and they pwnd 2) It was a close win but the runner pulled it off because they *were* professional, like in Headhunters 3) Splat, grease mark, notation in the obits. I didnt say they were perfect or flawless, I said they were professionals that dont make pansy common obvious mistakes because they know better. Dont twist what I said.

And there is no way of knowing who you are really working for unless the players believe what the GM says as truth. Its impossible to know for sure. All the in game checking and digging and still, it could be a shell company or a false front. A megacorportation could easily issue a Johnson a rating 10 fake idea just to use for this one hiring session. How are the runners gonna crack that, repeatedly. If theyre running searches and 24/7 survellaince on their employer what time are they using on the run. They *only* know what the GM tells them they find in game, and then they can choose to have their players believe that. But Machiavellian to the core, there is no way to be sure. And professionals dont like acting on things that arent a certainty...

As far as avoiding betrayels, Ive said numerous times thats a real risk. Avoiding infiltration is another matter entierly, and is easy. Hell just using mind probe on people new to the team makes it nigh impossible.

And weve had every question you asked come up. The players were just smart enough to not let it compromise the team, except for 1 time when they were newer. So out of 300+ sessions, something like 1500 hours of playing SR, we had a big mistake once.

Id say thats pretty professional.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 6 2004, 03:26 PM

Really it's two questions. Are runner teams 10/10 professional? Dependso n when you're talking about.

I'd say starting characters are about 7/10 and every 50 karma or so that goes up by 1/10. By the time you hit about 200 karma, a nonprofessional runner is an oddity. They either get killed, retire, or wise up.

For the teams I've been on... there was the one run which had the vindictive mafia wannabe, the former hairstylist Baccus shaman, the newbie rigger (literally), the guy who couldn't go to the bathroom without a skill chip, and the albino dwarf mage who managed to get himself shot in every adventure.

There were also teams of good runners, but they're not as much fun to talk about.

Posted by: The White Dwarf Jun 6 2004, 03:44 PM

Thats a good point Tinker, I guess karama/presumed-experience levels of the runners in question would matter. Ty.

Posted by: Phaeton Jun 6 2004, 04:05 PM

*post deleted by user*

Posted by: lodestar Jun 6 2004, 04:11 PM

Most of my runners are 9/10 professionals, but constantly playing professionals makes for less exciting roleplaying and more of tactics excersise. Characters that have other motivations outside of being a professional make for interesting story telling. For example: Our friend Ivan, while for the most part a cutting edge professional, when a contact decided to fuck him over he dealt with it in what could be considered a less than professional way, and the next three sessions revolved around a little vengeance.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 6 2004, 06:01 PM

Posted by: Cray74 Jun 6 2004, 06:18 PM

Posted by: Die blaue Reiterin Jun 6 2004, 07:20 PM

Sahandrian : Whoah.... never thought a gaming group could come up with such... ahem... peculiar ideas. And I thought our troll cook-fu was bad...

My gm uses to say that I am too paranoid for my own good. Is there such a thing as too paranoid ? Anyway, I guess that since my character got almost killed 3 times because of assassins ( ah, the hunted flaw drakes get ), I get the right to be paranoid. The only problem is that the other players in our gaming group are much more of the door-bashing, guns ablazing, ask questions later, variety. It usually means they try to find trouble while I stay back. It can be tedious at times.

Posted by: Centurion Jun 6 2004, 07:33 PM

Posted by: Sahandrian Jun 6 2004, 11:58 PM

Posted by: k1tsune Jun 8 2004, 08:17 AM

*Looks at Run From Hell PLUS other unfinished runs*

This one time, at band camp...

-Alex

Posted by: Darkest Angel Jun 8 2004, 12:36 PM

I was torn between all of the above and none of the above, most of the time you try to be professional and get the job done, but shit happens and even the most experienced runner can make a rash decision when put on the spot.

Sometimes you make what you think is the right choice, and it turns out a bad move further down the line. Sometimes you're forced into a situation you know is bad, but the alternative is worse. Sometimes the bad guys know more than you do, and take full advantage of that. Sometimes the bad guys get lucky. And sometimes, just sometimes, the force just isn't with you when you're doing something you've done a thousand times before with no ill effect.

As I say, you do the best you can, and if that's not good enough you look for an exit strategy before one finds you.

There's no such thing as the perfect runner, because even if you do everything right there's no guarantee you'll finish the run, same goes the other way, you can make what with hindsight might be every wrong choice you could, and still come out at the end of it and call the mission a success.

Posted by: toturi Jun 8 2004, 02:16 PM

Remember the None of the Above option lies above the All of the Above option.

Posted by: sidartha Jun 8 2004, 08:11 PM

The true measure of a professional runner team is how they react when the run goes to shit. For instance. One of the best teams I ever been on was told to extract alive a very high grade initate from an unfamiliar city. During the course of the run the target ran to ground with two bodyguards.
The team fractured and began high survalence, waiting for the target to re-surface.
Eventually we caught a lead and tracked the target, captured and delivered him, and went home 30,000 richer.
Any fool can plan for when everything goes right. What takes skill is acting in a coordinated and calm manner when the shit hits the fan and you need to run.
To answer some of the questions posed.,
All team members buy lifestyles and contacts. Sometimes these are background related other times they are purposely cultivated.
Whenever we carry weapons in a non-running situation they have conceal of 9-12 (4 conceal+2 conceal quick draw holsterx1.5 trenchcoat=9)
By the second run at the latest all members of the team have at least, Pocket Secretarys and Rating 4 Radios with Subvocal Mics.
Only one J has ever backstabed us, and he set off a three run campaign of vengance to restore the teams reputation of "Don't Frag With Us Or We'll Destroy You".
despite having two runs that I personally remember as going to Hell with postage due, I still consider my team to be within the top fifteen percentile even when we screw up.