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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Hiring a Runnerteam 101

Posted by: MrSandman666 Jun 7 2004, 02:26 PM

Hi everybody,

I feel it's time again for some (probably stupid and obvious) questions.
It just occured to me that I have no clue about most things going on behind the scenes when a Shadowrun is set up, which is - as I am the GM - potentially fatal.
This whole thing is intendet as an ongoing installment to generally put questions associated with the "johnson-side" of organizing a run.

This first one is about quality insurance: if working on a tight schedule, how does the Johnson assure the quality of the job done?
Examplesituation 1:
The runners where told to sabotage a certain facility and where offered a bonus if they could do so without being caught. How does Johnson know if they have been caught? Sometimes there's isn't an outright carchase ensuing or some immediate reaction. Maybe there's video footage of the run which is broadcasted in the morning news the next day or the day after. He would hardly demand his money back, would he?
Examplesituation 2:
The runners are told to kill a certain person, maybe make it look like an accident or whatever, in any case something that keeps them from bringing the target's head for proof. How does the Johnson know the job is well done? Does he wait until the info becomes available through legal sources (newspaper, private notes, etc.)

My second question would be how to handle data (or other loot) that is not to be handed over to third parties.
Examplesituation 1:
A team is hired to steal some data, whipe the data of the original host, destroy all the copies of it and then bring the data to the Johnson without keeping any copies for themselves.
How is the Johnson going to insure that all the other copies have been whiped? How does he know the runners aren't keeping a private copy to sell it in about a week?
Examplesituation 2:
The runners are told to enter a facility and surgically remove a certain piece of data from a datastore and leave everything else untouched.
How does he insure that the runners have whiped the file and how does he insure that they didn't steal anything for private purposes?

Sure, for both questions there's the possibility that he finds out later and comes back for revenge. However, for some Johnsons, this is not possible (be it corporate politics or - more likely - a limited budget. remember, Johnsons do not have to work on behalf of a giant corporation). And also it's a really undesirable thing and a great risk too. If it was that easy to pull off for the runners, it would be done more often.
Then there's always the magical *reputation hit*. Well, as I said, not all Johnsons are influential in the Shadows and also most Johnsons don't want their runs to be talked about. After all, that's why most of them come to the shadows: keeping it secret. Hardly anyone is going to connect some sold loot or something like that and no johnson is going to hand in an evaluation sheet to the johnson. There's no "johnson's review" magazine in the shadows. The bad rep may get around if you regularly fail jobs or screw partners and fixers but I have a hard time believing that screwing your johnson will get you a bad rep (except with that specific johnson).

So far so good... I hope I didn't make myself look too stupid with...

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 7 2004, 02:44 PM

Quality assurance: The Johnson simply doesn't pay the runners all of the money up front. Generally, most runs pay 10-30% upfront and the rest on completion. If you botch the run, you don't get all or any of your second-stage cash. There may well be a waiting period in there, as well.

Information leaking: The "industry" polices itself to a large extent. Shadowrunners who break the terms of their agreement usually find themselves with a rotten rep and few job prospects. The Johnson can also have them killed in retaliation and not suffer a personal hit to his rep because it'll probably be pretty common knowledge what the runners pulled.

[edit] Rep hits are more powerful than you might think. The Johnson sends a very clear message of displeasure to the fixer(s) who set up the run. This message gets around the shadows pretty quickly afterwards.[/edit]

Posted by: toturi Jun 7 2004, 02:46 PM

None, there is no real surefire way of ensuring the mission objectives. Just as there is no real surefire way of ensuring that the Johnson isn't going to betray or otherwise set up the runners.

QUOTE

Rep hits are more powerful than you might think. The Johnson sends a very clear message of displeasure to the fixer(s) who set up the run. This message gets around the shadows pretty quickly afterwards.

The Johnson may just be yanking the fixer's chain and may be trying to weasel out of paying the runners.

QUOTE

Information leaking: The "industry" polices itself to a large extent. Shadowrunners who break the terms of their agreement usually find themselves with a rotten rep and few job prospects. The Johnson can also have them killed in retaliation and not suffer a personal hit to his rep because it'll probably be pretty common knowledge what the runners pulled.

Who is to know what the runners pulled? Disinformation can easily be spread. The runners might not have done what the Johnson said they did. The runners could easily say the Johnson set them up or even better they survive the hit squad and now the Johnson's rep is going to take a huge hit instead.

Always ask yourselves "What would I do if X was a NPC?" and "What would I do if X was a PC?" If both answers are different, then I suggest you take a look at the tips for being a GM section in the BBB, in particular, Be Fair.

Posted by: Lantzer Jun 7 2004, 03:33 PM

QUOTE

The Johnson may just be yanking the fixer's chain and may be trying to weasel out of paying the runners.

Its a possibility. Bear in mind that it's all a business, though. A Johnson who constantly whines about his runners is going to have a hard time getting repeat business. Just like the Johnsons who backstab their runners.

QUOTE

That's right, they could. This is where reps come into play. The stronger your rep, the more people will believe your side. Runners work hard to build a good rep so that they have credibility in the shadows. Johnsons do the same. If a Johnson has to set up a group, he probably does it rarely, and mostly to groups with no big rep.

The person with the best rep wins. Until they screw up.

(Actually, if it's ugly enough, _both_ sides reps could take a beating.)

QUOTE

Always ask yourselves "What would I do if X was a NPC?" and "What would I do if X was a PC?" If both answers are different, then I suggest you take a look at the tips for being a GM section in the BBB, in particular, Be Fair.

True enough. The thing to remember about all NPCs is: they are just folks doing their jobs too.

Posted by: MrSandman666 Jun 7 2004, 04:24 PM

Well, my problem with reputation are wider spread and I'll possibly open another thread about this since I find it to be very essential and worth discussing.

More on topic:
My Johnsons hardly even pay half of the pay up front, more like 20% most of the time BUT usually the runners call the Johnson the second they complete the job and get out alive. They will then make an appointment with the Mr. J to get their pay. Till now this has worked out and till now the players never tried to screw with their Johnson but now I have a very creative group of players and I believe it's only a matter of time until they try. Is it reasonable for a Johnson to wait a few days or weeks until the dust has settled and he is sure everything happened as ordered?

As for the information leaking / looting: Who will ever know that the runners broke the terms of their agreement? As long as they don't sell the data/loot to the fixer who organized the job for them, they should be fine. Depending on the loot they could also keep it for a while and sell it off bit by bit. Who is ever to know that they did this certain run and who is to connect that loot with the runners and/or the run and who is then to ask whether they where "allowed" to steal it or not? It's highly unlikely that anyone will ever deduct a breach of contract from a few runners selling things. There's nobody keeping the great overview. Everybody involved only sees a small section of the story but never enough to actually get something harmfull for the runners out of it.
Of course it can always happen that for some strange reason the Johnson hears about the 'ware hitting the streets and the only ones able to sell this would be the runners. However, this is only likely when the data is pretty hot (hot enough to cause some excitement in the shadows/corporate world) or if they are dumb enough to sell large amounts of hot equipment over a short amount of time.

Posted by: Backgammon Jun 7 2004, 05:27 PM

Question 1
Example1: A "bonus" for not being caught? Not being caught is pretty fragging much a requirement. You get caught, the contract is forfeit. You always get to keep the up front pay, but anything else is up in the air. Work out a new one (i.e. please please don't kill me Mr J, I'll make it up to you). As for knowing they got caught... a good Mr J has his feelers inside the target corp and inside law enforcement agencies. Nothing necesseraly very deep, but finding out if the runners got sloppy should be easy. If he's not certain, but thinks maybe things got sloppy, and can make up 101 plausible reasons to delay paying the runners until he knows for sure.

Example2: Someone who orders a hit on someone else probably personnally pays pretty well attention to how it's done. If you asked a hitman to kill someone for you, don't you think you'd be pretty tense about how well it's done? He will find a way to know, that's for sure.

Conclusion: the J always has some sort of way to know how well it went down, usually some small insider information. It's easy to get general inside info. Detailled info is another matter, but general info should be enough to gauge quality. Plus, there's always surveillance.

Question 2
Example1: He won't know. Either he'll see it on the market and now have to plan on how to kill the runners, or he won't and all is well. Payback is the only option in case of treachery.
Example 2: Once again, payback. If the orders are *specifically* not to steal other sutff, then the runners should ask for more money to compensate. Else, they can steal all they want. If he paid them not to steal other stuff, and they still do, then once again it's payback time.

Conclusion: Reputation and Payback are the only tools available to Johnsons when it comes to honour.

QUOTE

Sure, for both questions there's the possibility that he finds out later and comes back for revenge. However, for some Johnsons, this is not possible (be it corporate politics or - more likely - a limited budget. remember, Johnsons do not have to work on behalf of a giant corporation). And also it's a really undesirable thing and a great risk too. If it was that easy to pull off for the runners, it would be done more often.

If the J cannot, from lack of power, execute payback, then he just lost, and the runners won. Period. If he won't, then the runners won again. Imagine YOU, hiring some mafia thug to kill your boss that you hate. Job goes down, but thug gets caught and tells the cops you hired him. He walks, and you're gonna go to jail. Oh shit. Whatcha gonna do? Nothing. You lack the power for payback. You thought playing in the shadows was gonna be easy and that nothing could go wrong, cause you paid good money. Though shit.

QUOTE

Then there's always the magical *reputation hit*. Well, as I said, not all Johnsons are influential in the Shadows and also most Johnsons don't want their runs to be talked about. After all, that's why most of them come to the shadows: keeping it secret. Hardly anyone is going to connect some sold loot or something like that and no johnson is going to hand in an evaluation sheet to the johnson. There's no "johnson's review" magazine in the shadows. The bad rep may get around if you regularly fail jobs or screw partners and fixers but I have a hard time believing that screwing your johnson will get you a bad rep (except with that specific johnson).

Rep is indeed a touchy subject, and merits it's own thread. I'm gonna start one right now, as a matter of fact!

Posted by: Siege Jun 7 2004, 06:14 PM

Typically, I ask for a "mission objectives" list so the Johnson can specify what is and is not required for the job.

Additionally, I ask about any verification requirements, if necessary. Do you really want his head on a silver platter? What grade of silver? Any particular fashion of platter?

And there is nothing wrong with a Johnson waiting a few days for the heat to blow over -- most PCs would wait for that as well, especially if they're moving hot goods as freebies to the job.

A standard Johnson clause might be "contact me a week after completion of the job and we will make arrangements" or he might leave the remaining payment with the fixer to avoid the "wow, Bob's account was short 20% before Jim got whacked and now the remaining 80% just got transferred to...Poppa Doc's House of Guns and Sushi? What the frag?"

And if it's a sensitive job, the Johnson may want to verify the results with his (or her) own intel before confirming satisfactory completion of the job. Granted, the time delay in verification and final payment would be best agreed upon in advance to keep both parties happy. "What do you mean you can't confirm until next year?"

-Siege

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 7 2004, 08:51 PM

20% up front, 20% upon completion of the job and initial verification, 60% upon absolute verification.

Or similar. Time lapses of no more than ten days between completion and payment are probably pretty common.

~J

Posted by: Backgammon Jun 7 2004, 09:09 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Sounds like a pretty lousy deal from the runners perspective... especially since canon mentions a few times "and remember, half up front". Having only 40% of your pay upon having completed your end of the bargain would make more than one runner twitchy. I mean, you've got nothing to hold as hostage against the Johnson should he refuse to pay.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 7 2004, 09:25 PM

So fiddle with the percentages. Remember, the J has an equally tenuous hold on the runners should they decide to screw him.

~J

Posted by: tjn Jun 7 2004, 11:40 PM

True.

If a team runs off with the money, their rep is fragged. However there's always another desperate sinless out there willing to run for some cred.

The Corps, on the other hand, just can't make a new Johnson overnight. Johnsons that ruin their rep need to be replaced, and that costs time, money, and resources.

Enless the corp specifically tells the Johnson to stiff the runners, the tradeoff between a few tens of thousands verses the cost of ruining the rep of their resource is not good for the bottom line.

Independant Johnsons are a different matter, but the Corps do set the tone and the expectations in the unwritten rules. The shadows exist at their sufferance. The shadows had damn well play by their rules.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 8 2004, 12:09 AM

QUOTE

Example Situation 1:
The runners where told to sabotage a certain facility and where offered a bonus if they could do so without being caught. How does Johnson know if they have been caught? Sometimes there's isn't an outright carchase ensuing or some immediate reaction. Maybe there's video footage of the run which is broadcasted in the morning news the next day or the day after. He would hardly demand his money back, would he?

When you take your car to a mechanic, do you really know if he or she fixed your car? Sometimes it is very obvious, and other times not so. He charged you for a new fuel pump, but maybe all he did was clean the filter. She claimed it took four hours and that the bolts had rusted solid, but perhaps it took ten minutes and not a second more. The Johnson doesn't know, maybe he never will. There will be runners that count on it, just as there are informants who lie to get more money, mobsters who skim on the construction costs and so on. This is the problem with criminal endeavors.

The Johnson would not demand his money back should he discover betrayal. He might inform every fixer and Johnson he knows not to hire the runners, or he might inform the suicide Johnson of three potential candidates. If the job cost him enough in terms of his own reputation or even job, he will try to kill them. Period.

QUOTE

Example Situation 2:
The runners are told to kill a certain person, maybe make it look like an accident or whatever, in any case something that keeps them from bringing the target's head for proof. How does the Johnson know the job is well done? Does he wait until the info becomes available through legal sources (newspaper, private notes, etc.)

The Johnson almost always has a mole or person inside the target building that reports to him. Even if the person is only a security guard that copies reports, or a secretary that keeps a blog. They will send messages in completely innocuous ways or even without their knowledge. He will have personal deckers monitoring the necessary systems and so on depending on the critical level of the mission.

QUOTE

Example Situation 3:
A team is hired to steal some data, whipe the data of the original host, destroy all the copies of it and then bring the data to the Johnson without keeping any copies for themselves. How is the Johnson going to insure that all the other copies have been whiped? How does he know the runners aren't keeping a private copy to sell it in about a week?

This is the same as the first example. However, he'll also put out a request to buy information identical to the target information. If something surfaces in the next few days or week, the Johnson will get a heads-up. Then, depending on many things, the he will decide not to use the runners again as above, buy the information, or kill them.

QUOTE

Example Situation 4:
The runners are told to enter a facility and surgically remove a certain piece of data from a datastore and leave everything else untouched. How does he insure that the runners have whiped the file and how does he insure that they didn't steal anything for private purposes?

How does he know the file is there in the first place? If he knows it exists, he can ensure it is gone. As to knowing if they stole anything, he puts out a request to buy information about the target corp, if the runners show up as sellers, he knows.

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 8 2004, 05:23 PM

QUOTE (Lantzer)

Johnson's are a dime a dozen for the big corps. What businessman doesn't have massive Negotiations to begin with? As long as the runners never learn who's behind them, a corp can burn every team it hires, swap Johnsons, and never come through on a single deal. If one or two teams find out who the corp is the rep hit won't even be that bad. First, occasonally screwing your runners is pretty much accepted on both sides as standard. Second, even if the corp DOES get a bad rep, so what? Aztech can have the worst rep in the biz, killing runners, never paying, etc, but guess what? 90% of the time YOU WONT EVEN KNOW YOU'RE WORKING FOR THEM. Until you feel the knife in your ribs, and start to wonder just who hired you.

You have to remember, for a corp profit is life, but the amount of profit is meaningless. Everythings marginal. If a run nets

1 after expenses, it was worth it. RL is full of examples of corps who took a yearly profit in the tens of dollars, or even a hefty loss, just to keep their name out there and undermine their competition. It's all part of the tooth-and-nail process of staying alive.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 8 2004, 05:31 PM

Amount of profit is life. Ever hear of stockholders?

And most businessmen won't have massive Negotiations scores any more than most cops would have massive Pistols scores.

~J

Posted by: Lantzer Jun 8 2004, 05:36 PM

True, to a degree. Sure, a corp can replace Johnsons.

The problem with rotating Johnsons frequently is that a new Johnson has no Rep. No Rep means less people will do business with him.

So without a good network of contacts, and people willing to vouch for him, how is a new Johnson supposed to do his job?

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 8 2004, 05:41 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jun 8 2004, 12:31 PM)

Amount of profit is life. Ever hear of stockholders?

And most businessmen won't have massive Negotiations scores any more than most cops would have massive Pistols scores.

~J

Yes. Profit has very little to do with the value of many stocks. In RL, profit is usually worse because of current tax structure.

Yeah, management with no ability to interact, ass-kiss and wheedle is gonna go far. Maybe as far as a nice desk job in a 5' cubicle in the basement.

It must suck to address your stockholders: "Assets grew 200%, sales went up 400%, we drove our 2 strongest competitors out of business, we now are the sole owners of incredible new technology that it cost us

0 to research, and stocks split 10 times last year. But overall we made

1.
"No profit!!1!! You're fired!"

Lantzer, you're right. I'd suspect even a truly vile corp would keep a few good Johnsons with a clean rep, for the odd run where they don't want to screw someone. But again, most runners don't even know what corp they're working for. They could be screwed, get half their team killed, and be working for the same corp the next day.

Posted by: Siege Jun 8 2004, 05:42 PM

Presumeably the Corporate Office has a rolodex of names who may (or may not) be interested in doing business with a Johnson.

The Johnson is a relatively nameless face who might be the person responsible for the job originally or he might be a minion who's acting as intermediary for another person/department.

This, of course, is dependent on what view of the Johnson/Fixer/Runner relationship you choose to endorse.

The fixer may actually have no idea what person/company he's doing business with or they might have a long professional relationship.

-Siege

Posted by: Abstruse Jun 8 2004, 06:11 PM

What keeps the runners honest? You screw a J or a fixer, everyone in town knows about it.

What keeps a Johnson honest? A quote (probably butchered) from Neuromancer. "You're Mr. Nobody. You pay to keep from becoming a Mr. Somebody."

The Abstruse One

Posted by: MrSandman666 Jun 8 2004, 06:50 PM

Hm, well ok... I guess this discussion won't go much further without running in circles. I think we all agree that Johnsons usually don't have a rep (except for the odd neutral freelance johnson who is hired as a middleman). Their job is to be unknown, most of the time. Some corps probably have some prestige-Johnsons, for the odd job when it's ok for the runners to know who's behind it but I think this will be more of an exception then a rule.

So, to sum things up:
A Johnson will usually give some feedback to the fixer or whoever got the runners to him, causing them to get worse or less jobs.
He will eventually keep the payment until he at least somehow has an idea that the job was done right (this idea is so incredibly simple, effective and reasonable I can't believe it didn't occur to me before).
He will, should he be screwed bad enough, search retribution of some kind.
He will start his own efforts to find out whether the runners really didn't steal and sell anything.

Did I get this right? Did I miss something?

Posted by: Backgammon Jun 8 2004, 07:21 PM

QUOTE (MrSandman666)

So, to sum things up:
A Johnson will usually give some feedback to the fixer or whoever got the runners to him, causing them to get worse or less jobs.
He will eventually keep the payment until he at least somehow has an idea that the job was done right (this idea is so incredibly simple, effective and reasonable I can't believe it didn't occur to me before).
He will, should he be screwed bad enough, search retribution of some kind.
He will start his own efforts to find out whether the runners really didn't steal and sell anything.

Did I get this right? Did I miss something?

Yup, sounds about right!

Posted by: Backgammon Jun 8 2004, 07:30 PM

QUOTE (Number 6)

#6, I disagree with everything you said.

Johnsons are not a dime a dozen. It takes a very rare kind of person to be a Johnson. First of all, you need to find a cold-blooded sonofabitch to broker deals that kill, maim and rob people. Yes, corporate culture can breed pretty tough people, but there is a HUGE differance between the tough corporate player and someone that has other people killed on a monthly basis.

Second, you need to find people that are willing to face the very big risk of going to jail, or getting killed, as well as knowing too much.

Johnsons are very rare. They are nearly insane power players willing to put it all on the line to grow in power within the corp.

Add to that the "Johnson skill" factor. You think it's easy to fool runners into not knowing who they work for? It takes a lot of skill to be a Johnson.

Amount of profit meaningless: well, that's more or less true. The only thing that matters is GROWTH. Stock price is directly related to business growth, not profit. And stock prices are the sole and only thing of matter.

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 8 2004, 07:36 PM

"Do you understand your value to the organization Resnick?"
(brief pause)
"You're a sadist. You lack compunction. That comes in handy."

Pretty much sums up most Johnson's as well.

Posted by: MrSandman666 Jun 8 2004, 07:43 PM

Do keep in mind that not all (not even most) Johnsons are actually professional Johnsons. Sure, the corp will his profesional Johnsons around for when something "official" (i.e. fitting the corporate agenda not something public) needs doing but in the end there are still all the private agendas of the corps, jobs offered by private persons, runs coming from the mob or gangs or some small coprs or organizations.
And in those cases, Johnsons are just normal people who have some shadowy dealings. Most of them probably aren't even good in negotiating with runners. Tthey will be nervous and unexperienced. And most of all they are expendable (well, as expendable as it gets when you have limited personel). Plus they don't tend to have a street rep.

Posted by: Number 6 Jun 8 2004, 07:55 PM

QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jun 8 2004, 02:30 PM)

#6, I disagree with everything you said.

Johnsons are not a dime a dozen.

Ok. Well, I think this is a pretty subjective topic to begin with. However, my understanding of the setting is a world where corporations have run amuck, growing in power to surpass even nations. Runaway capitalism as it were. In such a system everyone is a dime a dozen. Wage slaves have barely any identity, they push triplicate-copy papers in tiny identical cubicles and can be replaced with someone identical in a matter of minuites. The main difference in management levels is the size of the cubicle and the importance of the papers to the corps survival. I doubt a society inundated with this philosophy would treat Johnson's much differently. They already have a term for those that choose to live outside this system, SINless, Shadowrunners.

I'm not sure there's such a difference between the hardened corp player and a cold-blooded killer. At least in Gibsons novels. Jail, power, et al; You mean like Cheney and Haliburton? Or Martha Stewart?

"You have a problem with authority Mr. Anderson. You believe that you are special, that somehow the rules do not apply to you. Obviously you are mistaken."

Pretty much sums up the corporate mindset.

Posted by: Backgammon Jun 8 2004, 09:08 PM

QUOTE (Number 6)

I'm not sure there's such a difference between the hardened corp player and a cold-blooded killer. At least in Gibsons novels. Jail, power, et al; You mean like Cheney and Haliburton? Or Martha Stewart?

There are definatly people who are fitted to being Johnsons. I'm not denying the concept of corp Johnsons. But there isn't this huge and unlimited pool where you can just pull out a new one after you burned the old one. Cheney, Stewart, that other name I don't recognise... that's 3. And they're all pretty exceptionnal people. It takes an exceptionnal person to want and achieve that much power, and so by definition they are few. Once again, I'm not saying there aren't any Johnson. Just that there isn't that many per corp. Corps need to be careful to protect their Johnsons, they are valuable assets.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 8 2004, 09:16 PM

Haliburton is a corp itself. Though it would be kinda cool if it could combine into Ultimate Form Johnson.

~J

Posted by: Clyde Jun 8 2004, 10:29 PM

Sandman, I think you've got the jist of it here. But I also think that you aren't looking far enough back. You start your timeline at the point where the Johnson has a mission and hires the runners and that's good: you're thinking from the standpoint of your NPC.

I would suggest asking yourself how the johnson gets his objectives. Does the corp have an intelligence arm that feeds him targets for a shadowrun? Does he make it up himself? Where does he get his information from? How did Mr. J know that Scientist "X" wants to change jobs? Why does he know that the new prototype weapon from Ares is really ready (and that it's worth stealing)? If you think about the answers to these questions, it'll be pretty obvious how the Johnson will know whether or not he's been successful.

My suggestion is that Mr. Johnson is a lot like a CIA Officer who's got diplomatic cover. That is, he's at the US Embassy in Country X's capital, but his job title is "Cultural Attache" or "Agricultural Assistance Underadvisor" or something. He's got the benefits of diplomatic immunity: if you touch him, you start a war. However, he's easily traced to the US so he can't do much directly. What this officer can do is convince other people to spy for him: whether through bribery, blackmail, patriotism (a lot of people spy for the US because they believe their government is corrupt) or even just for the power (look at Achmad Chalabi for that). Mr. J runs a network of moles, recruited spies, deckers, mages and analysts. He can ask for an "official" covert ops team if he thinks the job is worth it, but has as much chance of getting it as the US Station Chief in Istanbul does of getting Delta Force to come into a US allied country.

Mr. Johnson usually knows if the job has been botched. He'll know because whatever intelligence network told him the job had to be done in the first place is probably there after the run. Of course, this could be tricky for him. For example, if the runners manage to shoot the security guard that Johnson has paid off he's lost his confirmation. Then he has to wonder: Did the runners know that guard X was his man? Was he followed to the Meet and survielled there so that the target corp made the runners a counteroffer? So factor this stuff into Johnson's thinking. If the job is unusually hard to detect, maybe he'll even request that the runners' bring along a more trusted "company man" along. That man may even be a shadowrunner (not part of the team) who has a needed specialty and who isn't meeting the Johnson for the first time like it seems. Either way, be creative and be ruthless. It's all shadowrun in the end.

Posted by: MrSandman666 Jun 9 2004, 07:01 AM

That's a good point there... I'm pretty sure this'll bring up some more questions as I think about it but for know I'll just accept it and play with it for a bit in my mind. I definately think this will help coming up with new stories and creating more detailed runs and NPCs.

Posted by: BGMFH Jun 9 2004, 08:15 PM

When you only have one man inside, you order a Shadowrun, sans-casualties.

Yeah, the price jumps, but hey, its worth it to keep Osama's toweldresser on the payroll right?

Posted by: Lantzer Jun 9 2004, 08:45 PM

QUOTE (Siege)

This is an interestng idea, but I see perhaps a few problems.

I agree that a corp could have a compilation of their Johnsons' files on what fixers to contact, etc. So a new Johnson could get whatever info he needs to do his job.

I agree that a fixer may have no idea who the Johnson represents. He doesn't really want to know. What he really needs to know, however, is: Are his wallet, contacts, Rep, or personal freedom going to get burned by doing business with this guy?

Upon contact with a new Johnson, a fixer has to figure out:
1) Will he pay out?
2) Is he for real - not going to get cold feet, and not a cop?
3) Is what he wants something the fixer wants to get tangled up in?
4) Why did he call me?
5) Is he a cop?

For a faceless newbie Johnson, fixers will be less trusting/cooperative, because the newbie is a unknown quantity.

How will this effect things? Well, if I was running a corp's shadow department, I'd put my newbies on jobs with those fixers who have a record of being more trusting, desperate, greedy, or risk-taking. The newbie would have to build a solid track record with them before some of the more careful fixers would even talk to him.

You need the grapevine advertising.

Posted by: Siege Jun 10 2004, 07:05 AM

A lot of it will depend on the job requested.

The more detailed and complex the job, the more likely it will go to a proven Fixer that has a track record with a given employer -- at least enough to establish a modicum of trust.

If it's little more than grunt work, the fixer is working his way up the food chain like anyone else and has to hope like all hell he's not getting hung out to dry as an expendable asset.

Provided, of course, on which corporate perspective you choose to endorse in your game.

And some runners would take most jobs with little or no questions asked -- even working on the fixer's line of, "Well, I know jack about the Johnson, but he's contracting these job specs. Interested?"

-Siege

Posted by: Dice Jun 12 2004, 03:25 AM

Ok, lets get this straight....

If Corps are going to burn runners on a regular basis then where does it stop?

Unless all the corp ever wants is punks to do general damage or violence then you need the confidence of a Fixer to find 'the right people for the job'. If a fixer gets a rep for setting up runners with non-paying Mr J's or worse gets a rep for having the runners they hook up disappear and never be seen again, then that fixer won't get many runners wanting to do business through them.

Also, if you are going to burn the runners you may as well burn the fixer to avoid paying him too...

And your disposable Mr J may as well get burned by the Corp, save paying him, and he *definitely* knows too much to simply pay off, so a swift killing is in order... better hire out some runners to do it... D'oh! A never ending cycle of hiring Mr J's to arrange the whacking of their predecessor...

Basically, everything in SR boils down to trust and reputation. The Corp has to trust it's Mr J not to simply go to Lone Star (or its Rival Corps) and simply expose the Corp's criminal activities etc. Mr J has to trust that the Corp won't just whack him after the run to tie up loose ends.

Mr J has to trust that the Fixer isn't really a cop, and actually can find the right people for the job. The Fixer has to trust that Mr J isn't a cop, won't whack him to tie up loose ends, and will actually pay up per contract (and pay the runners too, within reason... see above)

The Fixer has to trust that the runners he finds aren't cops, and are up to the job in question. The runners have to trust that the Fixer isn't a cop, and hasn't set them up with a bad Mr J, or for an impossible mission (dum dum der da dum dum der da dum dum der da diddle deee diddle deee...)

Frankly, If corps weer to screw runners more than 1% of the time then the chances are that no group of runners/fixers etc would get any chance to build up a rep for being good at their job enough for a corp to hire them in the first place... unlees, as I said at the start, the Corps only ever want to get cheap street punks to do general thuggery.

If you want to hire professional runners with professional skills to do a professional job for you then you have to treat it just like any other business transaction and pay up.

Sure, the PC's might be the sort that attract the 1% of bad runs more often than an average NPC crew will, but even so anything over 1 in 10 runs where the Johnson deliberately screws the runners would be unbelievable to me.

Posted by: Siege Jun 12 2004, 12:58 PM

Even if the runners and possibly the fixer managed to get screwed and live to tell about it, there are always more runners hungry for nuyen.

Which means a pretty hefty amount of fodder to cast about and a rumor mill only covers so much.

-Siege

Posted by: toturi Jun 12 2004, 01:06 PM

QUOTE (Siege)

But are there so many professionals? You might have a dime a dozen runners, but are they good?

Posted by: Siege Jun 12 2004, 01:13 PM

QUOTE (toturi)

QUOTE (Siege @ Jun 12 2004, 08:58 PM)

But are there so many professionals? You might have a dime a dozen runners, but are they good?

That's why you don't screw the ones you can't afford to lose and are sure will be killed so nobody else finds out. "When you shoot the Devil in the back, be sure not to miss."

I'm reasonably sure the really good professionals have a tighter connection with gossip spreading back and forth much faster than the lower masses and any rumor will go fast and far.

Now, really, how many PC teams are in that category of "das uber" professional? Depending on the game, they might be the best of the best or they might be the dregs of the Barrens.

But based on the game standard, the "let's screw the runners" should be varied accordingly.

-Siege

Posted by: toturi Jun 12 2004, 01:37 PM

QUOTE (Siege)

I believe that there is a natural equilibrium. Good runners retire, bad runners die. A certain number of untested runners enter the trade to replace these runners. I do not think a good Johnson would be foolish enough to screw with his runners. You might be screwing with an untested but he might turn out to be a good runner and you have just shot yourself in the foot. If he is a bad runner, he'll be dead soon enough anyway.

Posted by: Siege Jun 12 2004, 01:59 PM

I don't think a Johnson screws with his runners for fun and personal amusement.

One of the better examples is mentioned about the Johnson who sacrificed a team of five years for a solid position at Ares.

Shadowrunners are an asset like anything else -- an expendable asset. If, by their deaths, they can achieve the desired objective -- whoops.

Assets, pawns -- whatever you call them, they are means to an end and will be used accordingly.

-Siege