Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Supreme Court Runs
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 14 2004, 03:19 AM
http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=4418 just gave me a run for Shadowrun.
For the adventure we invent a new type of school. To make some controversial issue here, it's a public school for Orks and Trolls. They're called Cram Schools because they teach eight years of Junior High and High School in four years. The schools were put in place by ORC (Ork Rights Committee) and cost the same as sending a Norm to school for eight years. The idea is that the shortened lifespan requires a faster teaching model.
Obviously, these schools should be open to all races, but limited budgets and local concentrations of Orks and Trolls means that only metahumans attend. Humanis invokes Brown as a political tactic, and the case quickly reaches the High Court.
The two arguments are...
| QUOTE |
| Seattle Board of Education The two races are not equal and thus cannot have equal facilities. The desparity between lifespan and economics prevents Ork and Troll metahumans from achieving equal education and job oppertunities. In order to preserve the intent of the Fourteenth Admentment we must create a level playing field by altering educaiton practices. Evidence shows that Human, Elf, and Dwarf metahumans respond better to eight years of schooling. While Ork and Troll metahumans learn best durning a very short period. |
| QUOTE |
| Jim Crow Giving metahuman access to special schools gives an unfair advantage to those students. Segregation of human and metahuman children in the public schools of a State solely on the basis of race, pursuant to state laws permitting or requiring such segregation, denies to human children the equal protection of the laws guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment. Metahumans exiting the school system earlier will have an unfair advantage at finding work and longer peroid of career training than human students. |
You can add to the arguments if you'd like. I'd love to hear others opinions about the matter.
How does this become a run? Delaying lawyers, screwing with question sheets, tampering with court or lawyer knowsofts, and the like are the simple ones. There was a recent case where a lawyer kept referring to the Justices by their name, but he kept using the wrong name. It really pissed off the justices. Inflicting some kind of memory treatment or psychotherapy on a lawyer to subtly bias judges against his or her argument would be supreme (hahaha).
All the media attention could make the run a nightmare, but the pay would be good form both sides. Publicly embarrass Humanis or stop ORC schools? All you have to do is screw the lawyers...
Which side would win? I want to say some kind of compromise is in order, but this is Shadowrun...
Posted by: Entropy Kid Jun 14 2004, 03:27 AM
If the school was private, with no state funding, would it still be subject to those rules?
I know businesses have the right to deny service, but I don't know about schools. If it were a non-profit corporation, would it count as a "business" and be able to deny service, in this case schooling?
Also, if it still exists (and if I understand it right) Affirmative Action allows giving preference to minorities, so couldn't the school just give preference to orks and trolls until the spaces in the school are full?
Even if technically in the clear, I imagine that Humanis would keep the school or its backers in court until they ran out of money, so there's still plenty of run potential.
Posted by: Phaeton Jun 14 2004, 03:38 AM
Hmmm...Interesting idea, Kanada.
Although politics and legal matters are not my forte, thus I shall lurk and not comment for the moment...*ninja*
Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 14 2004, 03:41 AM
I think the school in question is meant to be a public project. Hence the Seattle Board of Education in the suit 
Since "seperate but equal" was struck down, if it doesn't come back at some point in the meantime, it still works. The only thing that's not completely logical is that it seems that the Humais folk would be somewhat more likely to have want to have their children attend a meta-free school than want to have them go with the metas.
I think it might work better the other way. A school district opens up a "ork and troll friendly" school that teaches a full curiculum in 4 years. The only problem is that the skills are more practical and geared toward helping students learn a trade (read: floor mopping is a class). ORC is suing to have the school abolished and the orks and trolls given a regular "good" education or the like.
The stakes of running against the big dogs at this level are pretty deadly, though. The PCs could easily end up with the entire Humanis movement after them.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 14 2004, 03:43 AM
| QUOTE |
| If the school was private, with no state funding, would it still be subject to those rules? |
You cannot deny service to someone based on race. However, it would not be a big deal because private schools charge per student per need and transportation is external. Public schools must provide transportation, which is a huge added cost, not to mention requiring different sizes for students of different races. If the Board loses, then all Cram schools will become private becuase the city cannot afford it... though not many Orks or Trolls could afford it either.
| QUOTE |
| Also, if it still exists (and if I understand it right) Affirmative Action allows giving preference to minorities, so couldn't the school just give preference to orks and trolls until the spaces in the school are full? |
I agree and think that Affirmative Action is the entire basis of the Cram schools. It is the reason the case has risen to the Supreme Court. Tangent, AA is dangerously close to being overruled today by Brown. I don't know its status in SR, though extraterritoriality can't have helped it. I agree that AA is the best defense Board has... Interpretations of Brown, however, say that the busing of students to diversify schools is required by the ruling - meaning that diversity is required as part of balanced education (I agree with that, too). Today, Brown is really losing favor because there has been little progress in the last two or three decades. The disparity is still on the rise (because of economic reasons, IMO <white flight>).
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 14 2004, 03:45 AM
On a related note, the idea is lacking some logical merit. Most Orc and Troll kids are physically incapable of an accelerated education, as they have statistically lower intellignece than the other metas. You're essentially trying to take the slowest kids and put them in the hardest classes. I'd argue that orcs and trolls problems are genetic and inborn, not a product of any system.
There has never been anything to the effect that trolls and orcs mature faster than I can recall, only that they die sooner. They just get screwed.
Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jun 14 2004, 03:51 AM
Actually, there's a Brown equivalent for metas in SR called Grumman v. Tulsa School Board. The man who argued for Grumman (an ork kid, IIRC) was Richard Scott, the sitting Chief Justice of the UCAS.
Then we consider that Bakke would probably be reversed (as it were, being a plurality) in the 1990s-2000s in a decision opposite of Grutter v. Bollinger, which would effectively destroy affirmative action in the U.S. given that in SR SCOTUS really was ultra-conservative by 2003.
This would be a chance to reverse it.
Posted by: GreatChicken Jun 14 2004, 03:55 AM
^ If you want to bring discrimination into play, this 'humanitarian act' towards Orcs and Trolls could be one of the methods to discredit them further (because, as it is, it's highly possible for this place to turn into a school for the delinquent). You could have the players find/destroy proof of this, either to force a review of the system OR prevent it.
Posted by: JaronK Jun 14 2004, 03:56 AM
If you want a real life scenario very similar to this, I remember similar issues surrounding an all gay high school in New York. The idea for the school was that openly homosexual students were facing severe discrimination, leading to much higher suicide and drop out rates, and that a school for them would eliminate this problem. Basically, the exact same arguements as you post came up, with talk of special rights, etc. As I recall, it was a public school. You might want to try looking up the case.
JaronK
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 14 2004, 04:04 AM
| QUOTE |
| Tinker Gnome The only thing that's not completely logical is that it seems that the Humais folk would be somewhat more likely to have want to have their children attend a meta-free school than want to have them go with the metas. |
I think Humanis wants the schools outlawed as the Seattle Board of Education can't afford to bus the Norms that far and provide for their needs (such as desk sizes, school uniforms, books, and so on). That's kinda why I choose to do it that way. Humanis is trying to play the "good guys" being held back by metahuman favoritism.
| QUOTE |
| Tinker Gnome I think it might work better the other way. A school district opens up a "ork and troll friendly" school that teaches a full curiculum in 4 years. The only problem is that the skills are more practical and geared toward helping students learn a trade (read: floor mopping is a class). ORC is suing to have the school abolished and the orks and trolls given a regular "good" education or the like. |
That is a great idea, too. Almost seems like an earlier case doesn't it? Something around 2040 or early 2050s. Very good idea though.
| QUOTE |
| Tinker Gnome The stakes of running against the big dogs at this level are pretty deadly, though. The PCs could easily end up with the entire Humanis movement after them. |
Oh yeah. That's what I'm talking about.
| QUOTE |
| Bit Basher On a related note, the idea is lacking some logical merit. Most Orc and Troll kids are physically incapable of an accelerated education, as they have statistically lower intellignece than the other metas. You're essentially trying to take the slowest kids and put them in the hardest classes. |
Well... they aren't teaching them everything. The classes aren't harder, they're more specialized. Basically, it's like GED training. It only that two weeks to learn everything a High Schooler learns? No, but that's not what the GED is looking for; they are just trying to "induce" rational thought - the scientific method, reasoning, cause and effect, fact versus opinion. Once one grasps those concepts, they have a basis for a lifetime regardless if they can't understand Soh-Cah-Toa.
| QUOTE |
| Bit Basher I'd argue that orcs and trolls problems are genetic and inborn, not a product of any system. |
Special needs for special people. Which brings up inclusion and the mentally handicapped. Years ago, Special Education was its own branch of education, where handicapped students learned separate from Norms. Today (thanks to Reagan, actually), schools must include handicapped students in regular classes and accommodate their needs. This is almost the basis for today's Affirmative Action, diversity. However, the evidence isn't old enough to make any decisions as to whether either side has benefitted. Cram schools are almost like BD (behavior disorder) schools.
| QUOTE |
| Bit Basher There has never been anything to the effect that trolls and orcs mature faster than I can recall, only that they die sooner. They just get screwed. |
Earthdawn mentions it, but the idea doesn't rely on it. Just dying sooner makes an imbalanced field, IMO.
| QUOTE |
| Crimsondude 2.0 Actually, there's a Brown equivalent for metas in SR called Grumman v. Tulsa School Board. The man who argued for Grumman (an ork kid, IIRC) was Richard Scott, the sitting Chief Justice of the UCAS. |
That was about inclusion into human schools, correct? Crow v. Seattle is more like someone sueing to attend an all Black Collage.
| QUOTE |
| JaronK If you want a real life scenario very similar to this, I remember similar issues surrounding an all gay high school in New York. The idea for the school was that openly homosexual students were facing severe discrimination, leading to much higher suicide and drop out rates, and that a school for them would eliminate this problem. Basically, the exact same arguements as you post came up, with talk of special rights, etc. As I recall, it was a public school. You might want to try looking up the case. |
I'll see what I can find, thanks.
Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jun 14 2004, 04:06 AM
Same thing applies. Historically black colleges can't prohibit white students from attending (I'd have to look up the case, though).
Posted by: Siege Jun 14 2004, 04:07 AM
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| Same thing applies. Historically black colleges can't prohibit white students from attending (I'd have to look up the case, though). |
Although there is a fair amount of social pressure.
-Siege
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 14 2004, 04:15 AM
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jun 13 2004, 11:06 PM) |
| Same thing applies. Historically black colleges can't prohibit white students from attending (I'd have to look up the case, though). |
Yeah, that's why I think Crow will win. It's a public school, diversity and equality to all. Grumman was 2036, almost thirty years past and settled law by Crow. So instead of just Brown (which was probably precedent), Humanis has Grumman, too.
Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jun 14 2004, 04:15 AM
Well, it's also not prohibited if they are private schools under the Constitution. it may be if they receive federal funds, though.
But if it's a public school, the case probably went:
- Summary Judgment in the District of the Seattle Metroplex
- Affirmed or appeal rejected by the Ninth (or whatever follows) Circuit Court of Appeals
- Likely rejection to hear en banc by the entirety of Circuit appeals court judges
- Cert. denied by SCOTUS
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 14 2004, 04:31 AM
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
But if it's a public school, the case probably went:
|
So what runs would need happen to make it to the Supreme Court?
You'd first need to have the District of Seattle rule in favor of Seattle.
That would give Crow grounds to appeal. Then you need Circuit Court of Appeals to hear the Appeal and agree to a new trail. How does it get to the SCOTUCAS agreeing to hear the case?
With Scott as current Chief justice and Grumman as precedent, I don't see Humanis losing. Maybe ORC would just drop the schools after the District of Seattle or Appeals Court ruling.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 14 2004, 04:56 AM
The http://www.gopusa.com/news/2003/august/0818_gay_school_lawsuit.shtml doesn't really compare (sadly) as they will admit any child that applies...
If the Cram schools agree to admit any student, can they deny transportation? Maybe we could make the entire Crow v. Seattle Board of Eduction about bussing and public schools. Jim Crow claiming the school should pay to bus him the ten miles to the nearest school and the schools telling him to take a hike (hahaha - puns I love 'em).
Posted by: cha-cha Jun 14 2004, 08:31 PM
Hmmmm.....in terms of runs, and this is just me thinking out loud (er..you know what I mean), you could even go so far as to have a fissure in the ORC movement, itself, with all the runs that could be included within.
One side (A) would not want orks/trolls treated any differently and sees this is a way to alienate and ostracize them from the educational system. The "floor mopping" class someone mentioned.
Another side (B) might posit what you are talking about. Saying that separate curriculae are important to inculcate an ork/troll culture etc etc. Not about floor mopping, but about being within your own cultural paradigm and not facing the horrendous prejudice that these kids have to face in the classroom and playground. Very much an ethnic studies paradigm that allows many minority students on american college campuses to live in dorms with folks with similar cultural interests (usually from the same ethnicity, but for legal reasons, open to everyone).
Everyone has made good arguments about some of the legalities, so I won't repeat that.
Imagine, though, if Humanis had infiltrated certain aspects of the ORC movement and, under the guise of providing orks/trolls with a distinct education, they are trying to remove their presence from the public school system by funding their opponents well meaning program. Now your runners are hired by side A to investigate the possible Humanis element and how deep their penetration of the ORC movement goes. It reminds me of the extreme Nation of Islam and Ku Klux Klan positions that argue that racial separation is a good idea and that miscegenation is the worst thing ever and how two wildly different sides wind up meeting.
Or maybe side B hires the runners to gather dirt on side A....matrix snoops, surveillance, etc etc. Or maybe the fissure is getting violent and someone needs bodyguards. It does not have to be Humanis vs. ORC...so many movements have internal dissension, and I, as a GM, might exploit that AND add the Humanis element...
Sorry to ramble..hope I added to the idea gumbo we are creating 
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)