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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Shapeshifter Adepts
Posted by: WalkerUrza Jun 14 2004, 08:19 AM
Hey, could someone explain to me why it was ruled that shifted shapeshifters can't use adept powers?
Posted by: Namergon Jun 14 2004, 08:37 AM
I think the reason would be that their adept powers are linked to their human form.
Personally, I think something is wrong with this rule, partly because the magician shapeshifter can still summon spirits and cast spells in animal form. As a GM, I think I would houserule the following:
- when learning a power, an adept shapeshifter must state in which form it works.
- for each power, the adept shapeshifter can buy an "option" or "extra" that reflects that the shapeshifter trained himself to use this power also in the other form. Maybe the cost would be 25% of the original cost of the power.
- If the adept shapeshifter had taken a geas option on this power, the geas is now applicable on the use of the power in both forms. If the adept doesn't want to have a geas option in one of his forms, he has to fully re-learn/buy the power (full cost).
- The GM would have final say on which powers can believably (sp?) be learn in animal form. Also, maybe some (new?) powers could be used to accomplish things an animal form wouldn't be able normally (like speaking, or using tools).
Posted by: WalkerUrza Jun 14 2004, 09:30 AM
But it's the same spirit as it were, it's all the same essence, what the book has done was say, Shapeshifters are all mages, because a shifter adept is impossable. Yes stun damage is the only thing a shifter "fears" but still... I mean things like quick draw as a say an tiger shapeshifter doesn't make sense...but improved ability brawling *specialized in claws or bites* would... With my group it's a house rule that all powers work in shifted form, but if the form can't physically use or do the power then... your SOL... but yeah...
Posted by: toturi Jun 14 2004, 10:15 AM
I think the main thing that the writers were thinking was the Improved Reflexes 3 and the initiative boost that shifters get. Together with Regeneration, a high initiative is potentially very dangerous.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 14 2004, 03:45 PM
| QUOTE |
| Yes stun damage is the only thing a shifter "fears" but still |
Posted by: Mr.Platinum Jun 14 2004, 03:57 PM
I know Shapeshifters can cast spells in there Doggy form, that sif your making a Physical mage, since we are on the topic of adepts.
Posted by: Luke Hardison Jun 14 2004, 04:28 PM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
Why? In 3rd edition regeneration heals stun too. |
Er? News to me.
Posted by: shadd4d Jun 14 2004, 04:29 PM
Check out the 3rd ed companion. It states they heal stun. The example is a magician recovering from drain.
Don
Posted by: Siege Jun 14 2004, 04:35 PM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
Why? In 3rd edition regeneration heals stun too. |
Say it with me,
| QUOTE |
| It ain't dead till you take the head. |
-Siege
Posted by: booklord Jun 14 2004, 04:35 PM
I believe the part you're refering to is how fast a shapeshifter can recover from physical damage caused by drain.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 14 2004, 04:42 PM
| QUOTE (Siege) | ||||||
Say it with me,
-Siege |
Amen to that.
In 3rd edition if you read the description of Regeneration it says it regenerates "damage". It no longer says "Physical Damage" like it did in 2nd edition. Stun Damage is damage, and Physical Damage is damage. It regenerates all damage.
Merry Christmas.
Whil you're making your PC's have nightmares about this, Vampires regenerate, and are no longer dual natured. They also now permanently add their essence to all their physical attributes. Their "Enhanced Physical attributes" poiwer doesn't have a uses per day or a duration, it's always on. Time to kick the living piss out of someone, Vampy style. They also show a much higher chance to be magically active. Regenrating vampire physads, Welcome to your nightmare.
Posted by: Misfit Toy Jun 14 2004, 04:56 PM
It's one of those rules I always ignore. Always. Because it's simply ludicrous. Shapeshifters are naturally animals. If adept powers were limited to any form, it should be their animal form, not the mockery they can transform into.
You just have to accept the fact that the designers apparently smoke a lot of crack or something... and things start to make more sense.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 14 2004, 05:06 PM
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy) |
| It's one of those rules I always ignore. Always. Because it's simply ludicrous. Shapeshifters are naturally animals. If adept powers were limited to any form, it should be their animal form, not the mockery they can transform into. You just have to accept the fact that the designers apparently smoke a lot of crack or something... and things start to make more sense. |
I pretty much agree with you totally, [articularly like you said, animal IS their natural form.
Posted by: WalkerUrza Jun 14 2004, 06:40 PM
Yeah it's a rule that my group ignores too, but still... It's annoying as all hell when you go to a site that *doesn't* ignore that rule... I guess it's time to start doing a lot of convincing and badgering untill he gives in mabey? *snickers*
Posted by: Siege Jun 14 2004, 06:42 PM
I'd argue that a bimorph doesn't have a true form, per se.
Shapeshifting is what the creature does -- it may lack social skils and knowledge associated with humans, but the (skill? Spell? Ability?) is inherent and natural.
Of course, I may read Terry Pratchett too much...
-Siege
Posted by: Joker9125 Jun 14 2004, 11:34 PM
| QUOTE |
| In 3rd edition if you read the description of Regeneration it says it regenerates "damage". It no longer says "Physical Damage" like it did in 2nd edition. Stun Damage is damage, and Physical Damage is damage. It regenerates all damage. |
That is a rule my group ignors completely. the ability to regenerate stun damage is way to munchy. Seriously that in itself combined with thier normal powers would make them horribly overpowered and nearly unbeatable.
Personally I would rule that they dont regenerate stun damage for game balance purposes.
| QUOTE |
| I think the main thing that the writers were thinking was the Improved Reflexes 3 and the initiative boost that shifters get. Together with Regeneration, a high initiative is potentially very dangerous. |
Since inproved reflexes isnt compatable with any other form of magic or cyberware that does the same thing I would rule that improved reflexes wouldnt work with the animal form it would have to work with human form only. If nothing else but for game balance.
House ruleing that all(or most adept powers work in animal form) and allowing shapeshifters to regenerate stun creates the most munchkin of all character types
So by some of the rules ive seen tus far you could create a starting character like this
Tiger SS physical mage earth elementalist
In animal form
Body 7(edge bonus attribute point body)
Quickness 6
Stregnth 6
Charisma 2
Intilligence 5
Willpower 6
Skills
sorcery 6
Brawling 5
Psyad powers are
4 points of magical power geases so it only works in animal form
Improved reflexes 2 with the talisma geas of an earring
counterstrike lvl 2 with talisma earring geas as well
so now we have a mage that can throw around force 4 elemental manip spells with a constant 13 dice and regenerate the stun damage at the end of every combat turn, has a pretty good body and with a decent armor spell sustained can take alot of damaghe down to L and can regenerate nearly any physical damage done to him (except having his head cut off) and on top of that he has 5 INI Die so he will go before most if not everyone else he is facing. Raises hands in air in frustration at the munchkinness of this. Heaven help the GM if this character gets even 30k and 20 or so karma. Surely I am not the only one that sees any type of problem with this?
Yes i do realize he will be facing alot of moifiers from drain and whatever physical damage he takes during that turn and large groupes of people and nukes will still kill him but that is true for any character, but he still has a HUGE and I mean HUGE advantage over a normal munchkin mage mage or munchkin street sam.
P.S. not sure if the totem modifiers for an earth elementalist would work with a pysical mage
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 14 2004, 11:55 PM
The earring geas is a bit of an impossibility to pull off since you can't get a piercing. You regenerate.
Drain does not follow normal regeneration rules, stun or not, it comes back at a box per minute.
No, I don't see a problem with this. Shapeshifters, like ghouls and metavariants are Optional Rules. Decline the option if you think it's too mucnhy, because in most games it is. Regenerating creatures work best as NPC's or in specialty games where everyone is paranormal.
Worse is an NPC Vampire. A nice adept vamp can wear a LOT more armor than a PC can because his quickness will be in the 13-23 range if his essence is full, *not* counting adept powers, and his body and str can be in the 13-23 range as well. Add in his 4x running multiplier, and the fact that astrally you cannot see a single thing wrong with him unless you spend an action to percieve, unlike the shapeshifter that looks like an animal astrally. The vamp can get the same 5d6 initiative. And by canon, the vamp can have cyberware as long as it was implanted before he was infected. See DNA/DOA for reference, the character "Nemesis". The rules that allowed this have never been contradicted in later books. THAT's horrific.
Posted by: KillaJ Jun 15 2004, 12:04 AM
A little off topic, but could anyone tell me where the rules are for a vampire npc?
Posted by: Zeel De Mort Jun 15 2004, 12:46 AM
p46 of Critters, which you get when you buy the GM screen.
Posted by: KillaJ Jun 15 2004, 12:53 AM
Much obliged.
Posted by: Zazen Jun 15 2004, 02:52 AM
| QUOTE (Joker9125) | ||
Since inproved reflexes isnt compatable with any other form of magic or cyberware that does the same thing I would rule that improved reflexes wouldnt work with the animal form it would have to work with human form only. If nothing else but for game balance. |
Glyph likes to point out a more compelling reason that this is powerful: shifters use Reaction for attacks in their animal form. Giving them level 3 Increased Reflexes is giving them +6 melee dice.
Posted by: WalkerUrza Jun 15 2004, 02:59 AM
*BOOM* and the question is still not answered for me *pouts*
Oh well, Short of being able to talk to the people behind the rules, I can't actually get a straight answer... Speculation and house rules are all nice and all, but it'd be usefull to know the *real* reason behind how the rules are.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 15 2004, 04:01 AM
We already stated there is no good reason. It's like asking if a tree falls in the forset with noone to hear it makes any noise. There's no right answer.
Posted by: Glyph Jun 15 2004, 05:55 AM
It's like asking what the point is of giving 'shifters an Essense of 8, when their starting Magic rating is still 6, and they can't get cyberware. Not much point to it. It makes sense for their NPC counterparts, though (since they add it to their physical Attributes in animal form). But that gets into yet another of my old rants about shapeshifters - how I hate it when there is one set of stats for NPCs, and one for PCs.
Posted by: Cochise Jun 15 2004, 07:57 AM
| QUOTE (shadd4d) |
| Check out the 3rd ed companion. It states they heal stun. The example is a magician recovering from drain. Don |
*huh?* Must have missed that one ... Care to quote?
Whether or not stun is regenerated is always heavily discussed ... just as the question whether or not regeneration only kicks in upon reaching (physical) deadly *Text can be interpreted that way*
Posted by: Cochise Jun 15 2004, 08:02 AM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Drain does not follow normal regeneration rules, stun or not, it comes back at a box per minute. |
Wrong ... physical Drain is regenerated at 1 box per minute ... There's no mentioning normal Drain. And that's one of the major points that usually leads to the big discussion about regenerating Stun Damage, since this point can be taken as argument for and against healing Stun.
Posted by: WalkerUrza Jun 15 2004, 05:03 PM
*quoted right out of SR companion*
Regeneraion:
Shapeshifter characters regenerate in roughly the wsame manner as shapershifter critters (see the rules on p. 13, Critters)
Regeneration makes shapeshifters virtually immune to death from injury. unless they suffer massive amounts of damage or damage to the brain or spinal cord.
Whenever a shapeshifter takes Deadly physical damage in one shot, or it's cumulative damage reaches Deadly on the condition monitor, rolld 1D6. On a result of 1, the shapeshifter does not regenerate, and may die if they do not receive medical care per standard rules. If the damage results from massive tissue injury (burns, trauma and such), the shapeshifter fails to regenerate on a result of 1 or 2. For any other result, the character suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn.
Wapon foci can permanently slay shapeshifter characters. If a shapeshifter takes a Deadly damage from a weapon focus, or damage from a weapon focus pushes the creature into the Deadly rage on the condition monitor, the shapeshifter must make an Essence Test with a target number equal to twice the Force of the focus. If the shapeshifter achieves no successes on this test, the character automatically dies. Even 1 success allows the shapeshifter to make the Regeneraton Test as above.
A shapeshifter magician who survives Deadly damage must still check for magic loss per standard rules. Additionally shapeshifter magicians regenerate the Physical damage caused by spellcasting Drain at a rate of 1 Damage box per minute. If a shapeshifter takes Deadly Phyical damage from Drain, the player chareacter rolls 1D6; the character does not regenerate on a result of 1 or 2.
Note that Karma cannot be used on the Regeneration Test, unless the gamemaster allows the Hand of God rule (p. 248, SR3)
Shapeshifters can regenerate in both human and animal form.
Note that these rules do not apply to damage from silver weapons.
Posted by: Tyron Jun 15 2004, 07:40 PM
Back in my earlier years of Shadowrun GMing, and before I knew the rules that well, I had a munchkin player in my Harlequin's Back game whom insisted on playing a Tiger Shapeshifter adept, with Killing Hands at Deadly. After trying to persuade him away from that character, I finally gave in because I just wanted to start the bloody game.
After seeing the carnage that character wrought, I understand perfectly why that rule is in place(I wish I would have known about it back when I was running that game 
).
Posted by: Cochise Jun 15 2004, 10:23 PM
| QUOTE |
| *quoted right out of SR companion* |
Thank you
Now let's see where the problems lie
Note: I'm not necessarily using these rules as I'm going to show now, but that doesn't change the fact that they can be interpreted in several ways.
| QUOTE |
| Regeneration makes shapeshifters virtually immune to death from injury. |
This refers to death from injury and not mere unconciousness due to "deadly" stun.
| QUOTE |
| not unless they suffer massive amounts of damage or damage to the brain or spinal cord. |
Albeit being an interesting flavour information, this is normally of no importance for the damage system, since SR combat usually doesn't provide detailed info on what you actually hit, but it indicates a connection to a specific type of damage (physical in this case).
| QUOTE |
| Whenever a shapeshifter takes Deadly physical damage in one shot, or it's cumulative damage reaches Deadly on the condition monitor, rolld 1D6. On a result of 1, the shapeshifter does not regenerate, and may die if they do not receive medical care per standard rules. If the damage results from massive tissue injury (burns, trauma and such), the shapeshifter fails to regenerate on a result of 1 or 2. For any other result, the character suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn. |
Now this is the interesting part. First of all note that there actually is no reference towards Stun Damage, which some people take as indictaion, that Stun can be healed.
However you have to note as well, that this paragraph only deals with regeneration upon hitting deadly physical damage and nothing else. First we learn that shifters have to roll a die when getting to D physical. Then we learn that when massive tissue damage is involved die die result changes.
Finally we learn that any other result (and this appears to refer to the die roll) the damage vanishes. So this paragraph says nothing (and I mean nothing) about automatically regenerating physical damage below D level. It doesn't deal with Stun either and it doesn't say that shifters cannot be k.o.ed ...
Just to be sure, let's have a look at two other quotes .. One from Critters and one from SR3:
| QUOTE (Critters @ page 13, Regeneration) |
| A creature with the Regeneration power cannot be killed by any damage except that which injures spine or brain. |
Again, nice fluff, but it also indicates that the damage we're talking about is physical in nature ...
| QUOTE (Critters @ page 14, Regeneration continued) |
| Check for this type of damage whenever the creature takes Deadly damage or its cumulative damage reaches Deadly on the condidtion monitor. To determine whether a creature dies from Deadly damage, roll 1D6. A result of 1 indicates that the creature is indeed dead. If the damage is from weapons that cause massive tissue damage (fire, an explosion, and so on), the creatues dies on a result of 1 or 2. For any other result the creature suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn |
Yes, there's no explicit distinction between damage types here (no "physical" or "stun" before damage), but if you really want to take that as indication that stun can be healed, that also means that any shifter who's knocked out, will have to do his regen-roll and can be killed if he fails.
But then there's the same reference to tissue damage in the next sentence as in SRComp. And yet again "For any other result" the shifter regenerates. That doesn't deal with wounds below D level either ...
Now for the SR3 quote:
| QUOTE (p. 126 SR3 @ Healing Stun Damage) |
| No medical treatment really helps to recover Stun Damage, nor does any magical spell currently knowm to man |
O.k. This doesn't say that Stun couldn't eventually be healed by other magical sources (as the critter power), but it indicates that Stun isn't healable except when resting and you'd normally expect an explicit mentioning somewhere, if that really was the case. None of the above sources said something like that.
| QUOTE |
| A shapeshifter magician who survives Deadly damage must still check for magic loss per standard rules. Additionally shapeshifter magicians regenerate the Physical damage caused by spellcasting Drain at a rate of 1 Damage box per minute. If a shapeshifter takes Deadly Phyical damage from Drain, the player chareacter rolls 1D6; the character does not regenerate on a result of 1 or 2. |
Now this as paragraph that actually includes all damage level below physical deadly, since it exlicitly says that physical Drain is regenerated at the rate of 1 box per level. But again no mentioning of normal Drain (=Stun)
Conclusion: Unless we get an Errata on that one, it's still highly debatable whether or not Stun can be healed via Regeneration.
Since the rules only deal with Regeneration upon reaching D physical, it's even doubtful that physical damage on lower levels is really regenerated (as most groups that I know of handle it).
Posted by: Glyph Jun 16 2004, 02:36 AM
Most people believe that Deadly damage is detailed as the exception to the general rule - in other words, it is the only time when a 'shifter might possibly not regenerate. Otherwise, it seems kind of illogical for a being with rapid healing to be able to fully heal Deadly damage but not heal lesser damage. It would make sense if it only turned damage from Deadly to, say, Serious. But they heal completely. Yet if they take a Serious wound, it doesn't heal? I don't think so.
The problem with disallowing stun damage to regenerate is that it makes regeneration too easy to circumvent for everyone. My personal house ruling is that stun damage from things like blunt trauma, tasers, or gas regenerate like other physical damage, but stun damage from fatique or spellcasting Drain regenerates at the same slower rate given for regenerating physical Drain. Strictly by the rules, though, all stun damage regenerates. If something that is explicitly stated in a previous edition is not explicitly stated in the new edition, then I generally assume it to mean that it is no longer the case.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 16 2004, 03:39 AM
| QUOTE |
| Since the rules only deal with Regeneration upon reaching D physical, it's even doubtful that physical damage on lower levels is really regenerated (as most groups that I know of handle it). |
Not taking D damage, only taking stun damage, ect... is definitely "any other result"
Posted by: Cochise Jun 16 2004, 07:43 AM
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| Most people believe that Deadly damage is detailed as the exception to the general rule - in other words, it is the only time when a 'shifter might possibly not regenerate. |
I'm aware of that. Still the above presented interpretation is possible.
| QUOTE |
| Otherwise, it seems kind of illogical for a being with rapid healing to be able to fully heal Deadly damage but not heal lesser damage. |
The question there would rather be: Does Regeneration only kick in when the creatures life is really threatened? It's still a somewhat "magical" trait. And magic doesn't necessarily behave "logical" ...
| QUOTE |
| It would make sense if it only turned damage from Deadly to, say, Serious. But they heal completely. Yet if they take a Serious wound, it doesn't heal? I don't think so. |
see above ...
| QUOTE |
| The problem with disallowing stun damage to regenerate is that it makes regeneration too easy to circumvent for everyone. My personal house ruling is that stun damage from things like blunt trauma, tasers, or gas regenerate like other physical damage, but stun damage from fatique or spellcasting Drain regenerates at the same slower rate given for regenerating physical Drain. |
A very common solution ...
| QUOTE |
| Strictly by the rules, though, all stun damage regenerates. |
"Strictly" by the rules? Reread what I have presented
| QUOTE |
| If something that is explicitly stated in a previous edition is not explicitly stated in the new edition, then I generally assume it to mean that it is no longer the case. |
You simply interpret it that way ...
________________________________
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Not exactly. The rules only deal with regeneration NOT happening upon reaching D physical. |
Still wrong, since it doesn't state anywhere that regeneration does occur before reaching D level. This paragraph deals with what happens at D level: The creature may or may not regenerate.
| QUOTE |
| Hence the last line of that paragraph... "For any other result...the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next combat turn." Not taking D damage, only taking stun damage, ect... is definitely "any other result" |
The problem there: "For any other result" => What result? The only thing in that paragraph that actually has some sort of a "result" is that die roll.
Have a look again:
| QUOTE |
| Whenever a shapeshifter takes Deadly physical damage in one shot, or it's cumulative damage reaches Deadly on the condition monitor, rolld 1D6. |
Simple Do-When- instruction. Limited to the occurance of reaching D level.
| QUOTE |
| On a result of 1, the shapeshifter does not regenerate, and may die if they do not receive medical care per standard rules. |
First reference to result of die roll (not the injury!)
| QUOTE |
| If the damage results from massive tissue injury (burns, trauma and such), the shapeshifter fails to regenerate on a result of 1 or 2. |
Second reference to result of die roll under special circumstances.
| QUOTE |
| For any other result, the character suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn. |
Third reference to the result of the die roll ... => Sorry, that paragraph still doesn't really deal with damage below D level.
Posted by: toturi Jun 16 2004, 12:24 PM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) | ||
Not exactly. The rules only deal with regeneration NOT happening upon reaching D physical. Hence the last line of that paragraph... "For any other result...the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next combat turn." Not taking D damage, only taking stun damage, ect... is definitely "any other result" |
The portion of Bit's post which he had bolded is the basis to which the argument that any other type of non-Deadly damage (physical or otherwise) is completely healed ie the damage completely "vanishes".
Posted by: CoalHeart Jun 16 2004, 01:36 PM
Just knock the shifter out and use the three seconds to jam it's mouth full of C-12 and stand back as you detonate it.
I think that counts as massive brain trauma.
Also You shuold be able to do a called shot for the head of a shifter to do localized damage to the soft squishy gray matter.
I don't know. I haven't had a problem with players against shifters so far. But I generally don't allow anyone to play as one.
Posted by: Zazen Jun 16 2004, 01:37 PM
| QUOTE |
| The portion of Bit's post which he had bolded is the basis to which the argument that any other type of non-Deadly damage (physical or otherwise) is completely healed ie the damage completely "vanishes". |
The "any other result" mentioned there is referring to the die roll, though. You don't roll a die for non-deadly damage.
Posted by: toturi Jun 16 2004, 01:53 PM
The "any other result" is any other result whether it is a Light/Medium/Serious Wound or a 1 or 2 from a Deadly Wound.
Posted by: Misfit Toy Jun 16 2004, 02:50 PM
When it comes down to it, it's retarded to argue that plugging a shapeshifter full of holes with a full burst from a HMG will disappear at the end of the turn, but clubbing one with a baseball bat leaves him for dead. Argue the semantics of the exact wording all you like (because we all know how wonderfully worded the rules are to begin with). It won't change the stupidity of the argument.
Posted by: Cochise Jun 16 2004, 04:05 PM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| The portion of Bit's post which he had bolded is the basis to which the argument that any other type of non-Deadly damage (physical or otherwise) is completely healed ie the damage completely "vanishes". |
I'm perfectly aware of what BitBasher tried to say there. I have responded accordingly and showed that this "basis" is non-existant.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| The "any other result" is any other result whether it is a Light/Medium/Serious Wound or a 1 or 2 from a Deadly Wound. |
Sorry, but are you trying to tell me that the third use of the term "result" suddenly includes a reference to something that the whole paragraph didn't deal with?
Taking a wound (of any level) is the result of a fully resolved attack (skill test, dodging where applicable and damage resistance). But the whole paragraph doesn't deal with that "result". It only deals with a situation where this "result" is already fact and then provides a rule with a result of its own (rolling a die). This new result is referenced exactly three times. Where would that sudden change of reference come from? Exactly! Nowhere, except when you start interpreting something into that actually is not part of what the whole paragraph deals with.
_______________________
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy) |
| When it comes down to it, it's retarded to argue that plugging a shapeshifter full of holes with a full burst from a HMG will disappear at the end of the turn, but clubbing one with a baseball bat leaves him for dead. |
Interestingly enough no one suggested something like that
The primary suggestion is that shifters can be knocked unconcious as anyone else can be.
The secondary suggestion is, that even physical damage doesn't automatically vanish. It only vanishes under certain conditions. And that condition has something to to with taking Deadly physical Damage.
Btw. it's not very polite to suggest that people are retarted because they argue something. So I'd suggest that you quit doing that ...
| QUOTE |
| Argue the semantics of the exact wording all you like |
Huh? People are trying to argue with "what (official) canon says". So arguing the semantics is a necessity
| QUOTE |
| (because we all know how wonderfully worded the rules are to begin with). |
Actually the wording in question is extremly precise ...
| QUOTE |
| It won't change the stupidity of the argument. |
The argument as such isn't stupid ... and as with the reference to being "retarded": This is uncalled for ...
Posted by: Misfit Toy Jun 16 2004, 04:07 PM
I never said people were retarded or stupid, I said the argument was. And it is. And it will continue to be so.
Posted by: Cochise Jun 16 2004, 04:17 PM
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy) |
| I never said people were retarded or stupid, I said the argument was. |
Who's trying to argue with semantics now
There isn't much difference between suggesting that certain arguments are "retarded" or "stupid" and directly saying that ther person voicing them is retarded / stupid.
It's more or less impossible to make a stupid / retarded argument without being stupid / retarded.
| QUOTE |
| And it is. And it will continue to be so. |
You'd have to prove that claim ... Which you can't
Posted by: Misfit Toy Jun 16 2004, 04:20 PM
The fact that you can't tell the difference between having a stupid argument and being stupid pretty much says it all when it comes to arguing over semantics.
Posted by: Cochise Jun 16 2004, 04:49 PM
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy) |
| The fact that you can't tell the difference between having a stupid argument and being stupid pretty much says it all when it comes to arguing over semantics. |
And that would be what? *eg*
I didn't say that I cannot tell the difference between "having" ( what you seem to consider) "a stupid argument" and "being stupid"
I said that accusing others of leading such an argument as equally insulting as directly saying "you're stupid".
And that's a "semantic" difference
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 16 2004, 05:25 PM
The basis of my view is that the paragraph does not deal with when regeneration works, it deals with when regeneration foes NOT work. Unless the curcumstances in that paragraph are met, then regenration removes all the damage at the beginning of the next turn.
The paragraph basically tells us that unless damage meets or exceeds deadly AND the roll to regenerate fails, then in all other cases the damage is wholly removed at the beginning of the next turn. It tells us the specific cicrumstances in which regeneration does not work, and they are clearly laid out. If those specific conditions are not met then the regeneration does not fail.
The whole paragraph deals with the result of what happens when a regeneration roll is failed.
Posted by: Apathy Jun 16 2004, 05:42 PM
Ok, I have a stupid question:
When he regenerates after being blown into various sized bits, what happens to all the spare parts? You chop off an arm and throw it out the window; three seconds later he has an arm again, but isn't there still a severed arm lying on the street outside?
This creates a possiblity for solving world hunger: Capture a cow shifter, tie it up, get dikoted chainsaw and remove an infinite number of flanks until the village is full. It's the ultimate sustainable resource!
The truly evil GM could allow each of the pieces to grow back into a full creature: PC-I hit him with the ATGM
GM-rolls some die...you hit him and he blows into a thousand pieces.
GM-rolls some more die...unfortunately for you, he makes his regeneration roll, and 1000 new very angry shifters grow from the various pieces
Of course, this would be silly, but what should happen? Since the shifter's limbs magically grow back, should the severed magically disappear when that happens?
Posted by: Siege Jun 16 2004, 06:58 PM
Insofar as I am aware, they have not defined what happens to spare parts left over from a regenerating character.
It would be a hell of a catch for an organ-legger to capture a regenerationg creature and harvest it for spare parts to sell...
-Siege
Posted by: Nikoli Jun 16 2004, 07:14 PM
If the parts are compatible with metahumanity.
Posted by: LaughingTiger Jun 16 2004, 07:48 PM
I've always looked at like a scene from the very, very, very bad 80's movie "monster squad" or something similar.
They shoved dynamite down the wolfman's pants and blew him into a billion pieces. There was a gory pause, then the pieces all rolled towards each other, remaking the wolfman. Whatever wasn't splattered all over the alleyway, I'm assuming, was regenerated.
Need silver dynamite.
Posted by: Cochise Jun 16 2004, 08:27 PM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| The basis of my view is that the paragraph does not deal with when regeneration works, it deals with when regeneration foes NOT work. |
One doesn't go without the other. If that assumption is correct I'll now demand the canon reference that tells us how regeneration works on Stund and physical wounds below D level ...
| QUOTE |
| Unless the curcumstances in that paragraph are met, then regenration removes all the damage at the beginning of the next turn. |
Give me quote where it says so ...
| QUOTE |
| The paragraph basically tells us that unless damage meets or exceeds deadly AND the roll to regenerate fails, then in all other cases the damage is wholly removed at the beginning of the next turn. |
I still cannot read that anywhere in said paragraph. All I see is the reference towards the die roll result.
| QUOTE |
| It tells us the specific cicrumstances in which regeneration does not work, and they are clearly laid out. |
Oh, the sentence you initially took very explicity says when regeneration does actually work: For any other result than 1 / 1,2 /depending on circumstances).
| QUOTE |
| If those specific conditions are not met then the regeneration does not fail. |
Yet another part I'd like to see quoted ...
| QUOTE |
| The whole paragraph deals with the result of what happens when a regeneration roll is failed. |
That's still incorrect. No matter how often you repeat it ... sorry ...
Posted by: ShadowGhost Jun 16 2004, 08:56 PM
| QUOTE (Joker9125) |
| Tiger SS physical mage earth elementalist In animal form Body 7(edge bonus attribute point body) Quickness 6 Stregnth 6 Charisma 2 Intilligence 5 Willpower 6 Skills sorcery 6 Brawling 5 |
One thing it looks like you're leaving out is that Shadpeshifters have to have two sets of Physical Attributes - Points must be assigned separately to human form physical attributes and animal form attributes. This character has already used 23 points, over the limit of 21 for Magician/Adept shapeshifter, and leaving human physical attributes at 1,1,1, for Body, Strength, and Quickness, after Shapeshifter racial bonuses.
This means Shapeshifters have *nine* attributes:
Charisma
Intelligence
Willpower (mental stats)
Body (human)
Strength (human)
Quickness (human)
Body (animal)
Strength (animal)
Quickness (animal)
Meaning to have one point in each attribute (before Shapeshifter form bonuses)you have to spend 9 points on attributes, leaving 12 points left over if the shapeshifter is a magic user of any kind.
Since Priority A must be assigned to resources, which is set at 5,000¥, this means you have 27 points for attributes (Priority B) to assign to your *nine* attributes; or if awakened (Priority B), then you have only *21* points to allocate to your *nine* attributes, as you take Priority D for attributes.
This helps balance out the extra powers that a shapeshifter has.
Posted by: Apathy Jun 16 2004, 09:42 PM
| QUOTE |
| Give me quote where it says so ... |
I hope I'm not mis-quoting either one of you, but I don't think BitBasher's saying that his opinion is specifically stated in canon. I thought he indicated that the wording is sufficiently vague that it could be interpreted either way, and that his interpretation might make sense given the context of the overall uber-ness of regeneration.
To summarize (in spoiler to save space):
I personally hate the 'all or nothing-ness' of the regeneration rules. By Cochise's interpretation, Vamps and Shifters aren't much of a threat - you can drop 'em with a single stunbolt and be finished before the end of a combat turn. On the other hand BitBasher's interpretation makes them pretty much invulnerable.
A few options for home-rules:
1. Any regenerating creature needs to also list a vulnerability (silver, wood, whatever). Any damage done with that vulnerability have a 50% of not regenerating.
-or-
2. Creature rolls for regeneration every phase it has damage using (essence)D6 against TN4 (modified by wound modifiers, massive trauma, weapon foci, etc.). Each success represents one box of physical or stun recovered at the end of that phase.
-or-
3. Same as #2, but also make regenerating a complex action, so the critter has to break off combat/run away while healing.
-or-
4. Vamps have to drain essence to regenerate (requiring a successful attack), and shifters have to shift out of animal form and back into it again to regenerate (requiring 1 or 2 complex actions).
-or-
5. Creature spends their essence to regenerate, gaining 3 or 4 boxes on their condition monitor for every point of essence they give up. Essence lost this way is recovered at the same rate as essence lost by projecting mages.
Anybody have alternate suggestions?
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 16 2004, 10:12 PM
I think apathy has my side of the case down. I will say that I use a more organic method for regeneration in my game. I will also say that regenerating creatures in my game are feared. They are stpically very intelligent, and do not rely on their regeneration to survive, they typically try to avoid damage anyway.
Regeneration in my house rules works this way... Take a creature's current body and add 10. This number represents the amount of damage it actuallt takes to kill a metahuman. Take that number and divide it by the number of passes in a round. This is how many boxes of damage a creature regenerates per pass.
Vampires who are low on essence regenerate slower than a vamp full on essence, and a Dzoo Noo Qua regenerates at a hellacious speed, being a troll.
If you dont want to get killed by a regenerating creature, then either prepare well ahead, or don't fight one.
I would like to add, that in canon a vulnerability does *not* stop regeneration. it just helps the creature get to D damage sooner. By the rules, vamps can walk in the sun and take a box of damage once a minute and it goes away almost instantly. looks like a sunburn, if that. Vampires are unholy nasty.
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jun 16 2004, 10:20 PM
Never mind, I was reading only the immediate rules, not the complete rules under a different heading.
Posted by: ShadowGhost Jun 16 2004, 10:41 PM
I don't consider them to be unbalanced die to low starting attributes and skills.
An average, mundane, starting character with cyberware can beat a shapeshifter to death easily.
Shapeshifters are very vulnerable to silver. Weapons made from Silver, or coated with silver receive a +2 to the power + 1 to the Damage Level. They would also automatically cause an additional Light Wound on contact.
Simple silver plated shot or flechettes will do wonders. And silver plating is easy, and cheap. Even high school kids can silver plate stuff.
Two bursts from a shotgun with silverplated shot/flechettes does 13 D+. If the first burst doesn't put it to deadly, the second one will. End of Shapeshifter.
Armor doesn't change with forms, and splitting Physical Attribute Points between human and animal forms isn't going to leave it with huge body or combat pool to roll the damage off with.
And under the choke rules, it's easy to get low TNs to hit with.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 16 2004, 10:47 PM
| QUOTE |
| Two bursts from a shotgun with silverplated shot/flechettes does 13 D+. If the first burst doesn't put it to deadly, the second one will. End of Shapeshifter. |
| QUOTE |
| Armor doesn't change with forms, and splitting Physical Attribute Points between human and animal forms isn't going to leave it with huge body or combat pool to roll the damage off with. |
Posted by: Cochise Jun 16 2004, 10:55 PM
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| I hope I'm not mis-quoting either one of you, but I don't think BitBasher's saying that his opinion is specifically stated in canon. |
*hmm*
Look at this:
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| In 3rd edition if you read the description of Regeneration it says it regenerates "damage". It no longer says "Physical Damage" like it did in 2nd edition. Stun Damage is damage, and Physical Damage is damage. It regenerates all damage. |
That pretty much sounds like it's canon ...
Note that my initial remark dealt with the Stun part ... The potential non-regeneration below D physical was just a sidenote.
| QUOTE |
| I thought he indicated that the wording is sufficiently vague that it could be interpreted either way, and that his interpretation might make sense given the context of the overall uber-ness of regeneration. |
That's one possible interpretation
But not the only one. My point is that it's not that "clear", as the initial answers (not only from BitBasher) indicated.
| QUOTE |
| By Cochise's interpretation, Vamps and Shifters aren't much of a threat - you can drop 'em with a single stunbolt and be finished before the end of a combat turn. |
a) That's not "my" interpretation. It's one possible interpretation.
b) You can take down all other beings with a stunbolt as well.
I don't really think that denying stun to be regenerated really removes the threat such critters do represent.
___________
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| I think apathy has my side of the case down. I will say that I use a more organic method for regeneration in my game. |
*g* Take a guess why I initially wrote: "Note: I'm not necessarily using these rules as I'm going to show now, but that doesn't change the fact that they can be interpreted in several ways."
| QUOTE |
| I will also say that regenerating creatures in my game are feared. |
Same is true for my games, although they I don't let them regenerate Stun Damage.
| QUOTE |
| They are stpically very intelligent, and do not rely on their regeneration to survive, they typically try to avoid damage anyway. |
So the question if Stun is regenerated or not, should actually be nor real problem!?
| QUOTE |
| I would like to add, that in canon a vulnerability does *not* stop regeneration. it just helps the creature get to D damage sooner. By the rules, vamps can walk in the sun and take a box of damage once a minute and it goes away almost instantly. looks like a sunburn, if that. Vampires are unholy nasty. |
Sunlight is still an Allergy for vampires ... but Allergies do not prevent regeneration either ...
Interestingly enough I expected that you'd use the Companion rules at least for the justification of automatical healing below D level (Stun still being a different discussion):
| QUOTE (SRComp @ p. 37) |
| Shapeshifters only suffer the effects of wounds caused by silver until the beginning of the next Combat Turn, as with other damage (see Regeneration, p. 36). |
Because here it more or less really says that all wounds are regenerated instantly. Problem here: The reference to p. 36 brings us back to the previously debated problems of multible interpretations. So although this might sound as if all wounds are regenerated, it's still possible to interpret the rules on p. 36 as the limiting factor to this rule.
_____________
| QUOTE (ShadowGhost) |
| I don't consider them to be unbalanced die to low starting attributes and skills. |
The problem also exists for NPC-shifters that have very different rules (especially those constantly by the shifters Essence improved physical attributes easily bring NPC shifters in areas where they even beat above average trolls ...
| QUOTE |
| An average, mundane, starting character with cyberware can beat a shapeshifter to death easily. |
How? You have to constantly force him to make a regen roll. That's a 1 in 6 chance every time it occurs.
| QUOTE |
| Shapeshifters are very vulnerable to silver. Weapons made from Silver, or coated with silver receive a +2 to the power + 1 to the Damage Level. They would also automatically cause an additional Light Wound on contact. |
And all that is still regenerated normally.
Problem however: I do not see Runners too often bringing along silver weapons. Normally the encounter with such a being is not planned.
| QUOTE |
| Two bursts from a shotgun with silverplated shot/flechettes does 13 D+. If the first burst doesn't put it to deadly, the second one will. End of Shapeshifter. |
Nope ... Both times he'll take his die and roll ... on a 1 or 2 he's dead. Otherwise he'll simply stand up again.
Posted by: ShadowGhost Jun 16 2004, 11:01 PM
| QUOTE (BitBasher @ Jun 16 2004, 10:47 PM) |
| Only if the shapeshifter rolls that 1 on 1d6. Also the shapeshifter should be wearing armor and all that goodness, since there's really no reason to ever shoft out of human form. Remember, silver does do extra damage, but it doesn't in any way by the rules written stop regeneration. |
Actually it's a one or a two on the regeneration roll with Damage from silver. And Karma doesn't apply to this roll. So it's a one in three chance it dies permanently.
If you still have actions, pin it to the ground with a sword/spear/knife. It will regenerate with a weapon still stuck inside it, causing instant wounds.
Not to mention, Regeneration only heals wounds - it doesn't spit out the silver-plated rounds already buried in it's flesh. It may regenerate, but the silver-plated shot inside its flesh cause automatic light wounds right off the bat.
All you need is 10 little pieces of silver plated shot still stuck inside the shapeshifter and it will keep dropping dead every time it regenerates. 10 Automatic light wounds tend to do that.
Posted by: Person 404 Jun 16 2004, 11:02 PM
This may be more of an issue with vicious blow than shifters, but if you don't let shifters regenerate stun damage, consider the following scenario:
Physad (purely for plausibility purposes) with vicious blow versus shifter.
Round 1: Physad beats the shifter to death with his bare hands, using vicious blow. Shifter does not roll a 1, is perfectly fine at the beginning of...
Round 2: Physad beats the shifter into unconsciousness using his bare hands, not using vicious blow. Shifter remains unconscious, can now be torched at earliest convenience.
Does something seem ever slightly so odd with this picture?
Posted by: Misfit Toy Jun 16 2004, 11:07 PM
Of course not. It's perfectly reasonable... somehow.
Punch a shapeshifter in the face and he goes down for the count. Punch a shapeshifter in the face with a katar and he's completely unphased three seconds later.
Hit a shapeshifter in the face with a mace, and he's toast. Hit a shapeshifter in the face with a mace that has some spikes thrown on and he's completely unphased three seconds later.
Shoot a shapeshifter with a gel round and he's out of the picture. Shoot a shapeshifter with an explosive round, and he's completely unphased three seconds later.
Throw a concussion grenade near a shapeshifter and he's all but kicked the bucket. Throw an IPE offensive grenade near a shapeshifter and he's dusting off the debris three seconds later.
It's all completely logical.
Posted by: ShadowGhost Jun 16 2004, 11:09 PM
| QUOTE (Cochise) |
| Nope ... Both times he'll take his die and roll ... on a 1 or 2 he's dead. Otherwise he'll simply stand up again. |
Actually, it's a simple action to stand up. Doesn't leave it with much options to do anything in the first initiative pass.
Leaving you plenty of time to aim, shoot; shoot. Reload. Repeat as necessary.
Posted by: Cochise Jun 16 2004, 11:15 PM
| QUOTE (ShadowGhost) |
| Actually it's a one or a two on the regeneration roll with Damage from silver. And Karma doesn't apply to this roll. So it's a one in three chance it dies permanently. |
Again, this is arguable, since:
| QUOTE (SRComp @ p. 37) |
| Note that Karma cannot be used on the Regeneration Test, unless the gamemaster allows the Hand of God rule (p. 248, SR3). Shapeshifters can regenerate in both human and animal form. Note that these rules do not apply to damage from silver weapons( see Silver Allergy / Vunerability, below) |
| QUOTE |
| If you still have actions, pin it to the ground with a sword/spear/knife. It will regenerate with a weapon still stuck inside it, causing instant wounds. |
Something that is not encompassed by the SR Damage rules ...
| QUOTE |
| Not to mention, Regeneration only heals wounds - it doesn't spit out the silver-plated rounds already buried in it's flesh. It may regenerate, but the silver-plated shot inside its flesh cause automatic light wounds right off the bat. |
And where do you suggest that the silver goes, when the body regenerates?
Not to mention the fact that this is yet another part that is not encompassed by the SR rules.
Even worse: Cyberware is explicity purged from a shifters body when regernation works ...
| QUOTE |
| All you need is 10 little pieces of silver plated shot still stuck inside the shapeshifter and it will keep dropping dead every time it regenerates. 10 Automatic light wounds tend to do that. |
... Thus it's very safe to assume that your little 10 pieces of silver will be purged as well ...
Not to mention the other fact that there's no way of telling if these 10 pieces are really to be considered different sources for the allergy (Thirs part that isn't encompassed by the SR rules) ...
Otherwise I could say that a shifter who's bathed in silver dust, takes hundreds of millions of light wounds ...
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 16 2004, 11:23 PM
| QUOTE (ShadowGhost) | ||
Actually, it's a simple action to stand up. Doesn't leave it with much options to do anything in the first initiative pass. Leaving you plenty of time to aim, shoot; shoot. Reload. Repeat as necessary. |
Quickdraw and fire a weapon, ect.. he still has options. it is not cut and dry "I'll pop off and die now, thanks!".
For the rest I agree with Cochise. The fact the cyberware is explicitly ejected is a precedent that all other things would be too.
Posted by: ShadowGhost Jun 16 2004, 11:35 PM
| QUOTE (SRComp @ p. 37) |
| Note that Karma cannot be used on the Regeneration Test, unless the gamemaster allows the Hand of God rule (p. 248, SR3). Shapeshifters can regenerate in both human and animal form. Note that these rules do not apply to damage from silver weapons( see Silver Allergy / Vunerability, below) |
Maybe you should finish reading the page.
Under Silver Allergy/Vulnerability:
"If a shapeshifter takes Deadly damage from a silver weapon or accumulates Deadly damage from a combination of silver and non-silver weapons, roll 1D6; on a result of 1 or 2 the character fails to regenerate and dies immediately."
Even *if* it purges the silver shot upon regeneration, once can assume the shot isn't spit away from the body, and with multiple pieces of silver shot touching it, it still takes at least a light wound, if not more from being touch by several pieces in different places...
"The mere touch {of silver} causes pain and burn like welts. A shifter bathed in silver dust would have the same effect as 3 degree burns covering an entire humans body - pain and burn-like welts covering every inch of skin. Sounds like a Deadly wound to me.
As for the Hand of God Rule - that applies to all, including the puny mage with a 2 body who is ripped to shreds with an 18D Panther Assault Cannon with 8 successes.
But it's only good once - the character burns all Karma and Good Karma to invoke this. To use a second time requires a minimum of 1 Karma Pool point.
The second time there's no Karma left to use. And a street sam waiting for you to try and stand up when you regenerate again.
Shapeshifters are tough. But not invulnerable. And slow as hell if they dump everything into human form. Their max initiative is Reaction 7 + 1D6 for a max of 13. One action to get up and ready weapon - if they find it - chances are it they dropped it when they took a deadly wound.
And once they're down, a WP grenade will work nicely. It keeps burning for 15 combat turns, inflicting damage every turn (10L, reduce by 1/2 impact armor), setting off any ammo and explosives worn by the shapeshifte.
Posted by: Cochise Jun 16 2004, 11:42 PM
| QUOTE (Person 404) |
| Does something seem ever slightly so odd with this picture? |
Yes, it looks odd to a certain extend. Then again it has something to do with magic ~shrugs~
But SR has lot's of those ...
________
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy) |
| Of course not. It's perfectly reasonable... somehow. |
Irony doesn't save the day
| QUOTE |
| Punch a shapeshifter in the face and he goes down for the count. Punch a shapeshifter in the face with a katar and he's completely unphased three seconds later. Hit a shapeshifter in the face with a mace, and he's toast. Hit a shapeshifter in the face with a mace that has some spikes thrown on and he's completely unphased three seconds later. Shoot a shapeshifter with a gel round and he's out of the picture. Shoot a shapeshifter with an explosive round, and he's completely unphased three seconds later. Throw a concussion grenade near a shapeshifter and he's all but kicked the bucket. Throw an IPE offensive grenade near a shapeshifter and he's dusting off the debris three seconds later. |
Take a heavy crossbow and call a shot against the head => target receives full armor under cannon rules => victim resists at TN 6S - armor + successes
ow poison the arrow, call the shot again => Chose bypass armor => target doesn't receive armor not even the one that is worn there => victim resists vs TN 6S + Damage of the used poison (possibly staged through successes) ...
| QUOTE |
| It's all completely logical. |
Indeed
___________
| QUOTE (ShadowGhost) |
| Actually, it's a simple action to stand up. Doesn't leave it with much options to do anything in the first initiative pass. |
Shoot while lying on the floor? Quickdraw a gun and return fire? + many more options
| QUOTE |
| Leaving you plenty of time to aim, shoot; shoot. Reload. Repeat as necessary. |
Which also assumes that you beat the shifters initiative and can stay out of hand to hand distance ... A task that might be not to easy to fullfill ...
| QUOTE |
| Maybe you should finish reading the page. |
Be sure that I have done that more than a dozen times
| QUOTE |
| "If a shapeshifter takes Deadly damage from a silver weapon or accumulates Deadly damage from a combination of silver and non-silver weapons, roll 1D6; on a result of 1 or 2 the character fails to regenerate and dies immediately." |
So that says that a shifter instantly dies in this situation, just as a normal character would when taking body +11 boxes of damage. But where does that exclude the use of karmapool?
| QUOTE |
| Even *if* it purges the silver shot upon regeneration, once can assume the shot isn't spit away from the body, and with multiple pieces of silver shot touching it, it still takes at least a light wound, if not more from being touch by several pieces in different places... |
*hmm*
a) gravity sometimes works wonders.
b) There's still no rule that says that multible silver pieces cause multible light wounds ...
| QUOTE |
| "The mere touch {of silver} causes pain and burn like welts. A shifter bathed in silver dust would have the same effect as 3 degree burns covering an entire humans body - pain and burn-like welts covering every inch of skin. Sounds like a Deadly wound to me. |
Can you tell me where you got that from?
| QUOTE |
| Shapeshifters are tough. But not invulnerable. And slow as hell if they dump everything into human form. Their max initiative is Reaction 7 + 1D6 for a max of 13. One action to get up and ready weapon - if they find it - chances are it they dropped it when they took a deadly wound. |
Still only looking at PC-shifters ...
Still not considering that you can shot while lying prone
Posted by: ShadowGhost Jun 17 2004, 12:04 AM
| QUOTE | ||
So that says that a shifter instantly dies in this situation, just as a normal character would when taking body +11 boxes of damage. But where does that exclude the use of karmapool?" |
"Note that Karma cannot be used on the Regeneration Test, unless the Gamemaster allows the Hand of God Rule"
Sounds pretty self explanatory to me. Regen. test is a one shot roll, Karma cannot be used unless HOG rule applied.
However, Fail to regenerate from Deadly Damage from silver inflicted wounds and the character *dies* immediately. No more Regeneration. No Karma
| QUOTE |
| *hmm* a) gravity sometimes works wonders. b) There's still no rule that says that multible silver pieces cause multible light wounds ... |
Simple common sense. Getting burned in two different places causes two different wounds. Getting burned in 10 different places causes 10 wounds.
| QUOTE |
| "The mere touch {of silver} causes pain and burn like welts." Can you tell me where you got that from? |
SR3 Comp., page 37. Silver Allergy section, second paragraph. Not to mention the willpower 6 test to resist the urge to retreat from the contact with silver.
| QUOTE |
Still only looking at PC-shifters ... Still not considering that you can shot while lying prone |
Certainly... if you have another pistol in a quickdraw holster for quickdraw & fire.... or spend a simple action to ready a weapon that's handy (i.e. knockback didn't send one you had in your hand flying several meters away from you.)
As for Melee range - who said the shooter would stand close? And knockback sends the shifter further away each time.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 17 2004, 12:58 AM
| QUOTE |
| As for Melee range - who said the shooter would stand close? And knockback sends the shifter further away each time. |
Posted by: Apathy Jun 17 2004, 04:42 AM
| QUOTE |
| Getting burned in 10 different places causes 10 wounds |
So...If I cut off one of your fingers or toes, you get a light wound, and if I cut off 10 of your fingers and/or toes, you will die.
Hmmm...
I just don't see it.
[edit] Sorry about the sarcasm. I understand that your interpretation is a possibly legitimate one based on the rules as written. I personally don't think it passes the common sense test, so I would interpret it differently, but YMMV.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 17 2004, 04:53 AM
yeah, SR doesnt work that way. Eat one bullet take one wound, eat 10 rounds at the same time.... take one wound.
Posted by: kevyn668 Jun 17 2004, 05:12 AM
| QUOTE (ShadowGhost) |
| Simple silver plated shot or flechettes will do wonders. And silver plating is easy, and cheap. Even high school kids can silver plate stuff. |
Yep. I saw "The Monster Squad"
Very underrated flick, IMHO.
Posted by: Glyph Jun 17 2004, 06:30 AM
Two things to keep in mind for regeneration:
First, they are healed at the beginning of the next combat turn. If you take a 'shifter down with Deadly damage early enough a combat turn, and you (or a teammate) have additional actions, then you can shoot the 'shifter in the head with an action, or use similar means to dispatch the 'shifter before it fully heals next turn.
Secondly, awakened 'shifters who take Deadly damage still have to make Magic Loss checks, so taking a Deadly wound is not something they should take lightly.
Posted by: Cochise Jun 17 2004, 07:20 AM
| QUOTE (ShadowGhost) |
| Sounds pretty self explanatory to me. Regen. test is a one shot roll, Karma cannot be used unless HOG rule applied. |
Look who hasn't read my prebious answer to that
Read the next two sentences right behind that one and you'll find:
Note that these rules do not apply to damage from silver weapons( see Silver Allergy / Vunerability, below)
So your "pretty self explanatory" rule does not count for wound inflicted with silver weapons.
| QUOTE |
| However, Fail to regenerate from Deadly Damage from silver inflicted wounds and the character *dies* immediately. No more Regeneration. No Karma |
And there's the problem: Fail regen roll, remember that use of Karma is only prohibited for damages from other sources => Use Karma => No instant death ...
| QUOTE |
| Simple common sense. |
I guess not *g*
| QUOTE |
| Getting burned in two different places causes two different wounds. Getting burned in 10 different places causes 10 wounds. |
First of all the damage system of SR doesn't distinguish different places when dealing with damage. Second, BitBahser already showed that in SR you can take 10 bullets but only receive one wound.
Also note that by this logic of yours 10 objects with a surface of 1 square centimeter would do ten times the damage of one objekt with a surface of 10 square centimeters. The amount of touched skin and the resulting skin problems would be the same.
| QUOTE |
| SR3 Comp., page 37. Silver Allergy section, second paragraph. |
I was more intereseted to hear where you got the rest I quoted from. Because that sentence about pain and burns can be interpreted again. There are major differences between superficial burnings (like a sun burn *which has interresting parallels to an allergic skin reaction*) and stronger burning through fire (or ice!).
| QUOTE |
| Certainly... if you have another pistol in a quickdraw holster for quickdraw & fire.... |
"Another"? Where did the first one go? Ah, I see ...
| QUOTE |
| (i.e. knockback didn't send one you had in your hand flying several meters away from you.) |
... but may I inquire which rule says that knockback / knockdown causes a person to lose his / her gun?
| QUOTE |
| As for Melee range - who said the shooter would stand close? |
The question is rather: Who said that he wasn't? Who said that the shifters didn't surprise his opponent?
You're trying to argue on specific cases, that favour the shooter, instead of looking at it globally ...
| QUOTE |
| And knockback sends the shifter further away each time. |
Provided that he really is knocked back.
If he really takes D Damage, he'll drop on the spot (no knockback there). Lower wounds might knock him back, but he can roll against that (and might succeed) ...
_____________
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| First, they are healed at the beginning of the next combat turn. |
Correct ...
| QUOTE |
| If you take a 'shifter down with Deadly damage early enough a combat turn, and you (or a teammate) have additional actions, |
What if situation
What if you don't manage that. What if you don't have additional actions ...| QUOTE |
| then you can shoot the 'shifter in the head with an action, |
And that would change what? He's taking another D wound => He'll have to make another die roll.
| QUOTE |
| or use similar means to dispatch the 'shifter before it fully heals next turn. |
And the severing of specific body parts isn't encompassed by the SR damage rules either ...
| QUOTE |
| Secondly, awakened 'shifters who take Deadly damage still have to make Magic Loss checks, so taking a Deadly wound is not something they should take lightly. |
Provided that it is an awakened shifter in the first place ...
Posted by: toturi Jun 17 2004, 10:36 AM
| QUOTE (Cochise) | ||
Sorry, but are you trying to tell me that the third use of the term "result" suddenly includes a reference to something that the whole paragraph didn't deal with? Taking a wound (of any level) is the result of a fully resolved attack (skill test, dodging where applicable and damage resistance). But the whole paragraph doesn't deal with that "result". It only deals with a situation where this "result" is already fact and then provides a rule with a result of its own (rolling a die). This new result is referenced exactly three times. Where would that sudden change of reference come from? Exactly! Nowhere, except when you start interpreting something into that actually is not part of what the whole paragraph deals with. |
The entire paragraph explains the earlier paragraph with specific reference to Regeneration due to Deadly damage. All this and proceeding paragraphs are doing is elaborating on damage and in particular Deadly Damage. The fixation on Deadly Damage is due to the fact that nothing else will stop a Regenerating creature from Regenerating.
Posted by: Cochise Jun 17 2004, 11:15 AM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| The entire paragraph explains the earlier paragraph with specific reference to Regeneration due to Deadly damage. All this and proceeding paragraphs are doing is elaborating on damage and in particular Deadly Damage. The fixation on Deadly Damage is due to the fact that nothing else will stop a Regenerating creature from Regenerating. |
... The word "result" does still only reference the result of the die roll ~shrugs~
Posted by: toturi Jun 17 2004, 11:39 AM
| QUOTE (Cochise) | ||
... The word "result" does still only reference the result of the die roll ~shrugs~ |
A null result is still a result.
Posted by: Cochise Jun 17 2004, 11:46 AM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| A null result is still a result. |
If you don't roll a die you don't have a result within the reference made in that paragraph => There is no such thing as a "NULL" result in that context.
You're still trying to broaden the reference of the word "result" to something this is not subject of said paragraph ...
Posted by: toturi Jun 17 2004, 12:00 PM
| QUOTE (Cochise) | ||
If you don't roll a die you don't have a result within the reference made in that paragraph => There is no such thing as a "NULL" result in that context. You're still trying to broaden the reference of the word "result" to something this is not subject of said paragraph ... |
If so, then it would have been the "any other result of the roll..." but it is not.
Posted by: Quix Jun 17 2004, 02:18 PM
What I don't get is that if regeneration doesn't apply to damage that is less then deadly what is the point of the line
"For any other result, the character suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn"
{which I don't have a page reference for because I swiped it from some elses post and didn't get the page too}
If regeneration only applies to Deadly damage then why talk about standard damage penalties, in all cases the shifter would be unconcious wouldn't they?
Posted by: Cochise Jun 17 2004, 02:22 PM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| If so, then it would have been the "any other result of the roll..." but it is not. |
*erm* No ... since "result" is already there reference to the die roll, there's no need for saying "for any other reulst of the roll" ...
That's what references are for: To minimize what you have say.
I repeat: The word "result" is used thrice. On its first occurance it references the die roll. On its second occurance it does the same. And now at its third occurance you're trying to tell me that all of the sudden it references something that is neither mentioned in that paragraph nor referenced in the first two instances?
Sorry, but that logic is flawed ...
___________
| QUOTE (Quix) |
| What I don't get is that if regeneration doesn't apply to damage that is less then deadly what is the point of the line "For any other result, the character suffers the standard damage penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn" |
It would be nice if you took the time to read all postings. The answer to has been given
| QUOTE |
| If regeneration only applies to Deadly damage then why talk about standard damage penalties, in all cases the shifter would be unconcious wouldn't they? |
Would a shifter be unconcious with a physical M wound? No ...
Posted by: Misfit Toy Jun 17 2004, 02:51 PM
| QUOTE |
| *erm* No ... since "result" is already there reference to the die roll, there's no need for saying "for any other reulst of the roll" ... [...] Sorry, but that logic is flawed ... |
Considering your own personal readings of other parts of the text (such as the lack of reminding you that they're talking about Physical Damage after already defining it at the beginning of the paragraph), that's a pretty hypocritical statement.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 17 2004, 04:10 PM
| QUOTE |
| *erm* No ... since "result" is already there reference to the die roll, there's no need for saying "for any other reulst of the roll" ... |
And therein lise our major interpretational difference. I say that "for any other result" refers to anything other than meeting the conditions above, namely for any result other than "the shapeshifter taking a deadly wound and failing the roll". Taking a moderate wound is a different result than taking a deadly wound and failing the roll.
It can be interpreted either way, either is strictly right. It's all up to the GM.
Using a literal interpretation, things here can get even far more wacky though. A Shapeshifter has a 66% chance of surviving a DN cannon shot for 35 boxes of damage for example. If he takes 12,500 boxes of damage from a nuke, he survives on anything except a 1-2.
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