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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ LOS

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 17 2004, 05:38 PM

Maybe this is another case of research, but why is it that clear glass doesn't block LOS where tinted glass does?

I ask this because, when looking at glass, you are not receiving the photons reflected off your target, those were absorbed by the glass.
Photon strikes the glass molecule, the atoms in the molecule absorb the photon (remember, it's a wave with particle like properties) and pop some eletrons out an "orbit" or quantum level. Since this requires more energy to maintain the electrons slide back to the starting orbit and release another photon in the same direction (prisms, magnification and cheap glass aside), which strikes another molecule and starts the process all over.

Basically, anything solid between you and your trarget should block LOS, regardless of opacity.

Or

There is no LOS because air molecules would act int he same manner as the glass.

Or

Computer screens and monitors should also grant LOS because the photons are still being transmited in the same manner as looking through glass. Therefore, anything that allows you to see the target live should be considered LOS, inclusing TV.

So, which is it?

Posted by: kevyn668 Jun 17 2004, 05:41 PM

QUOTE

Maybe this is another case of research, but why is it that clear glass doesn't block LOS where tinted glass does?

Maybe I'm not understanding you but....it seems to me that the difference is you can see through the clear glass.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 17 2004, 05:42 PM

It's magic. There doesnt have to be a literal physics sane interpretation. magic follows it's own clearly defined set of rules. Also, for the purpose of this exercise tinted glass referrs to one way glass. If it was just tinted but you could still see the target behind it it would still be valid LOS albeit with a panalty.

The bottom line is that if you can see somehting without anything electronically altering the image then you're fine. That's why fiber optics and mirrors work too.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 17 2004, 05:42 PM

Pay no attention to the reasoning behind the rules! Look the other way, citizens!

Umm... don't try to overthink it. Your brain will blow up.

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 17 2004, 05:46 PM

I'm just saying, in my typical roundabout fashion, that magic is controlled by perception of reality in SR terms. Could someone who was told from the begining that it was possible, cast a spell using a monitor as LOS?

Also, yes, i did mean one-way glass, not just tinted.

Physics explains our world to us in ways that we all typically find universally verifyable. It helps our minds define our perceptions of the world, therefore, one's understanding of physics does impact one's magic.

Posted by: cha-cha Jun 17 2004, 05:48 PM

hmmmm....interesting point (my love of physics tempered by my ignorance of it aside)! I would hazard a guess that the astral plane is going to be the great equalizer (ignoring that the rules would have a hard time explaining to a gamer not versed in the photon explanation that seeing someone through clear glass is not, technically, "seeing" them).

I imagine that viewing the person is going to create the link and, as the spell does not travel through the material world (but only "shimmers" on its way to the target) and goes through the astral, it bypasses the physical reality around us, and, by default, our physics of them, never touching any of the photons, electrons, etc. The seeing of the person only establishes the astral link.

Does that make ANY sense? Just an amateur guess over here!

Posted by: Zephania Jun 17 2004, 05:50 PM

I think you're wrong about the computer screen thing, here's how it works:

Camera views area
Image is digitised (each pixel is given a value of 0 or 1)
This data is encoded
Then modulated
Then transmitted (however, wires, radio waves, etc)
Then recieved
Then demodulated
Decoded
Finally it is interpreted as whatever your system wants it to appear (digital to analoge conversion)

You are not seeing the actual object even through fiber optics, you're seeing a generated image of what was there a micro second ago.

Also its why fibre optics shouldn't work for magic but hey 60 years in the future...

Hope that has cleared the camera thing up for you.

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 17 2004, 05:51 PM

But the spell does travel over the plane in which the caster is within, this has been stated numerous times in MItS.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 17 2004, 05:53 PM

QUOTE

No, that's an inherint limitation of magic. Magic is partially, but not entirely controlled by perception. Growing up being told that mahic causes no drain doesnt mean magic won't cause you drain. Being told you dont have to see you ratget, just think about them doesn't let you target spells that way.

Magic is only really controlled by perception is only partially true. There are still physical constraints.

QUOTE

Physics explains our world to us in ways that we all typically find universally verifyable. It helps our minds define our perceptions of the world, therefore, one's understanding of physics does impact one's magic.

Magic is the same. magic follows its on laws and definitions, it's just that those of magic and phsyics do not always exactly meet in the center.

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 17 2004, 05:53 PM

Well, you don't see things in real-time through glass, because of the time taken to pop the electron from one orbit to another, albeit very fast.

the point is, perception is percteption is perception.

Photons are still being generated, regardless of source, and they are still being perceived by your mind.

For those keeping score at home here is a http://resources.yesican.yorku.ca/trek/radiation/final/index_em_matter.html for the physics I'm talking about

edit, btw, this is what happens when my philosphy teacher cancels class, I start these threads...

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 17 2004, 06:05 PM

QUOTE (Nikoli)

Well, you don't see things in real-time through glass, because of the time taken to pop the electron from one orbit to another, albeit very fast.

Actually, glass molecules really don't absorb and re-emit visible photons, or at least not a significant number of them. If they did, the light would be scattered in all directions, creating a matted surface. This is in fact how white paint works.

Regardless, this is irrelevant. As was said above, magic has less to do with perception than it does with symbolism. What you're doing when you cast a LOS spell is you are holistically creating a symbolic link ("line of effect") between you and the target. It may confuse you less to think of LOS casting as similar to ritual magic, but without a linking test because seeing the target with your own eyes is enough of a link already.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 17 2004, 06:08 PM

And while we're at it. a spell does not travel anywhere unless it's an elementla manipulation. The caster brings the magical effect into being at the target. It does not cross the intervening space as a spell. A manaball does not travel from the caster to the target for instance, it simply manifests at the target.

Posted by: Nikoli Jun 17 2004, 06:15 PM

Then, could one not use a monitor for a ritual link?

Posted by: Person 404 Jun 17 2004, 06:47 PM

In fact, one could; the rules for doing magic this way are in SOTA. Just don't expect it to be easy.

Posted by: BitBasher Jun 17 2004, 07:50 PM

QUOTE

Then, could one not use a monitor for a ritual link?

According to SOAT kind of, bu that's ritual sorcery, and we're talking about spellcasting. Not the same thing. Ritual Sorcery requires other things instead of LOS.