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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Martial Arts Skills
Posted by: Smiley Jun 18 2004, 05:36 PM
First off, I realize that I started a thread identical to this one a few months back, but I seem to have misplaced it. That being said, what's the deal with martial arts skills? It says in CC that you can learn a maneuver for every 2 skill points oyu have in whatever martial art. So, since there's 9 maneuvers, you have to know that martial art at 18 to learn them all? But wait, there's more. Some of the martial arts give you the ability to learn to use the maneuvers with melee weapons, which would basically be like needing to learn another 9 maneuvers, right? So you'd have to take the skill to 36. I know I'm missing something. What is it?
Posted by: TinkerGnome Jun 18 2004, 05:41 PM
You could just learn more than one marital art.
I really do think that the way weapons are handled with maneuvers isn't really worth using most of the time.
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 18 2004, 05:41 PM
| QUOTE |
| So, since there's 9 maneuvers, you have to know that martial art at 18 to learn them all? |
| QUOTE |
| I know I'm missing something. What is it? |
Which is okay anyway because those rules suck somehting fierce.
Posted by: Smiley Jun 18 2004, 05:44 PM
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| You could just learn more than one marital art. |
You'd still have to learn 36 points worth of fu. While the karma cost would be less, it's still a tremendous pain in the gonads.
Posted by: Zeel De Mort Jun 18 2004, 05:53 PM
There's an optional rule that basically lets you learn a new maneuver every level of the skill instead of every second level. Costs helluva lot of karma, but it would mean you would only need to take the skill at half the level, if that's what concerns you.
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 18 2004, 05:56 PM
Eh. Most of the maneuvers, other than possibly Evasion, Close Combat and Whirling kinda suck anyway. And regardless, no maneuver is worth the 2 points you have to spend on it as character creation, so I'd personally never buy a martial art other than Brawling unless we were using BeCKS. Remember that with all other martial arts you are *required* to buy a maneuver for every two skill levels you have in that martial art, which means that at character creation other martial arts cost exactly twice as many points as any other skill. Considering how generally sucky the maneuvers are, they're just not worth the chargen cost.
Posted by: Smiley Jun 18 2004, 06:04 PM
Where does it say you BUY them? I thought you just got one for every 2 points of the skill you have.
Posted by: Zeel De Mort Jun 18 2004, 06:15 PM
p90 CC. The third paragraph under Maneuvers: "Each maneuver must be purchased at a cost of 2 karma each".
The fourth paragraph tells you about the cost at creation.
The fifth paragraph details the optional rule for learning more maneuvers. But, as was pointed out, it's unlikely you'll need more than four or so from any particular art, although they are all useful in the right situation. Some much more so than others.
I'd agree that most maneuvers for weapons aren't worth the cost of learning, with a few exceptions like whirling.
Posted by: Cain Jun 18 2004, 07:07 PM
Here's my little loophole...
While some arts, such as Escrima, allow you to apply a previously-learned Escrima maneuver to a weapon skill, notice that it doesn't say that you had to learn those maneuvers while studying Escrima. If you know close combat, it doesn't matter what skill it's linked with; you can apply it towards clubs.
I've discovered that this makes the system run a great deal more smoothly. It does tend to encourage people training to skill 2 or 3 in a lot of different arts, but that's OK in my book-- a lot of real martial artists do the same, only studying a new art until they learn how it works.
Posted by: kevyn668 Jun 18 2004, 07:13 PM
| QUOTE (Zeel De Mort) |
| p90 CC. The third paragraph under Maneuvers: "Each maneuver must be purchased at a cost of 2 karma each". The fourth paragraph tells you about the cost at creation. The fifth paragraph details the optional rule for learning more maneuvers. But, as was pointed out, it's unlikely you'll need more than four or so from any particular art, although they are all useful in the right situation. Some much more so than others. I'd agree that most maneuvers for weapons aren't worth the cost of learning, with a few exceptions like whirling. |
And that's primarily why MA in SR sucks.
Assuming you have the attribute req's, you could spend 6 BPs and get Brawling: 6 OR for 2 additional points (thats 8 ) you get Shmuck Fu: 4 w/ kip up and kick attack. Joy.
You want Shmuck Fu: 6? Fork over 12 BPs and go pick your manuvers...Sucker
Eyeless Blonde is 100% right: there are very few manuvers that are worth 2 BPs. Period.
Kip up?? We used to just house rule that you could make an Athletics test (Tn: 4 or 5, depending).
Kick Attack?? You get a one shot +1 to the Power of that attack and for the rest of the phase everyone gets a -1 to the TN to hit you? WTF?!
There's 2 BPs down the tube.
The Martial Arts system is pretty much the only system in SR I feel I have a legit gripe with. I feel like I'm being double charged for wanting to add flavor to my character by selecting a HTH combat form that jives with his background instead going with the same ole "Brawling" (sounds like "boring", don't it?). I just can't justify 8 or 12 BPs for what I feel is almost part of the background. As it is now, I sometimes have a little blurb in the background about the char spending some time at a local dojo or being an avid fan of kickboxing or "ninja" movies. That way I can RP that he performs facimilies of the moves w/o the benefits that the CC claim they provide.
Posted by: Phaeton Jun 18 2004, 07:15 PM
| QUOTE (TinkerGnome) |
| You could just learn more than one marital art. |
Tough girlfriend again, eh?
Sorry. Couldn't resist noticing the typo.
Posted by: Dax Jun 18 2004, 07:18 PM
I think one of the snags with the SR Martial Arts system stems from the way that Shadowrun deals with skills in general. In one of these threads before, someone pointed out that if you wanted to make a Ninhitsu based character, you should take half a dozen other skills to get the true flavor of the art.
Well, in almost all cases, Shadowrun takes a skill that would have many component parts and gells them together to one skill just to streamline issues. So, they do the same with martial arts.
In reguards to the manuvers, I perfer to go with a 2 for 1 deal. 2 Manuvers for every one Karma point.
Posted by: Apathy Jun 18 2004, 07:19 PM
| QUOTE |
| Kick Attack?? You get a one shot +1 to the Power of that attack and for the rest of the phase everyone gets a -1 to the TN to hit you? WTF?! |
Not argueing with you - the whole manuevers concept kind of blows. But the Kick attack isn't too bad for the speedy guy who's got one or more actions after everybody else is done, because then they don't get to take advantage of the -1 TN before the end of the turn.
Posted by: Smiley Jun 18 2004, 09:28 PM
It's very true that a lot (or most) of the maneuvers really really bite. The ones that DON'T, however, can be purchased for 2 karma apiece, no matter what your skill is? Is that right?
Posted by: Zeel De Mort Jun 18 2004, 09:39 PM
| QUOTE (Apathy) | ||
Not argueing with you - the whole manuevers concept kind of blows. But the Kick attack isn't too bad for the speedy guy who's got one or more actions after everybody else is done, because then they don't get to take advantage of the -1 TN before the end of the turn. |
Kick attack gives you an extra point of reach, not power. So it's actually quite useful in some situations. For example in the case cited above where a superfast guy goes both last in one turn and first in the next one. Or, if you're fighting someone one on one, you can use it to demolish them in one hit. Hopefully!
Anyway a lot of the maneuvers definitely do suck, but I think they're generally a good thing and they add a bit more flavour to combat.
I'd totally agree that they shouldn't cost 2 BP each though. 1 BP would be much more like it. I guess 2 karma is alright, depends what you're getting for that I suppose. But, for example, Close Combat or Whirling are so useful in a lot of different situations they're easily worth the cost.
Posted by: Misfit Toy Jun 18 2004, 09:40 PM
2 Karma per maneuver up to one-half your skill level, 8 Karma thereafter to a max number of maneuvers equal to your skill.
We've completely trashed the way it works by canon rules, though, and instead came up with a system that fits in much better with the way the rest of the skills work while still allowing for the combat options Maneuvers represent. I don't think anyone's interested in house rules in this thread, though, so I won't waste my time on it. 
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jun 18 2004, 09:44 PM
Actually the kick attack is +1REACH, not power. It say it increases the power of the attack and yet...doesn't. 
I made a monk guy using BeCKS2.0 and it works quite nicely. 2 karma in this system isn't really a pain unless you're a cheese face and want money....
But really why bother learning a skill at all thanks to the miracles of skillwires?
A rating 1 skillwire costs 3x1x500 = 1500 nuyen and 0.2 essence.
A rating 6 Chipjack Expert Driver is 30000 nuyen and 0.6 Essence.
A chipjack is like, 2000 nuyen and 0.1 essence.
Sooo for like 33500 nuyen and 0.9 essence you get 7 dice with any skillsoft. You can pay for this and like, brawling 1 which would cost 3x100 = 300 nuyen for 7 dice 
Munch-Cheese powers, ACTIVATE! 
Posted by: Misfit Toy Jun 18 2004, 09:52 PM
Couple problems there.
1) Chipjack Expert Drivers have a max rating of 3.
2) Even Skillsofts have to obey the "no more pool dice than skill level" rule. So at most, you'd only have two dice available.
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jun 18 2004, 10:00 PM
Where does it say it has a maximum rating?
And thank you for that reminder...I totally forgot about that in my haste to be really useful to the team via knowledge skills. I guess I was blinded by being useful for a change. Silly me. 
Posted by: Arethusa Jun 18 2004, 10:04 PM
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy) |
| 2 Karma per maneuver up to one-half your skill level, 8 Karma thereafter to a max number of maneuvers equal to your skill. We've completely trashed the way it works by canon rules, though, and instead came up with a system that fits in much better with the way the rest of the skills work while still allowing for the combat options Maneuvers represent. I don't think anyone's interested in house rules in this thread, though, so I won't waste my time on it. |
Hey, I'm curious. As has been mentioned, the canon martial arts system is pretty damn terrible, and I'll welcome anything that stands a chance of making the situation less.
Incidentally, one thing that does make things make a bit more sense, as ninjutsu has already been mentioned, is to consider the MA skills to only relate to the pure combat aspects of the art. A 6 in ninjutsu may make you a pretty decently skilled hand to hand combatant, but by no means you are literally skilled in the true art of invisibility. Unfortunately, yes, (even vaguely) realistically reflecting the more complex arts would require many more skills and a lot more advantages and disadvantages, not to mention a lot of game balance issues.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 18 2004, 10:06 PM
| QUOTE |
| Cursedsoul Where does it say it has a maximum rating? |
| QUOTE |
| http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/errata_mm.shtml p. 19 Chipjack Expert Driver Game Effects [4] Add the following: The Maximum rating of this device is 3. |
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 18 2004, 10:20 PM
| QUOTE (Cursedsoul) |
| Where does it say it has a maximum rating? And thank you for that reminder...I totally forgot about that in my haste to be really useful to the team via knowledge skills. I guess I was blinded by being useful for a change. Silly me. |
http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/resources/errata_mm.shtml, at the very least. The reprints should have further details.
But even so, CEDs are really useful, but it emphasizes the inherent problem of skillwires in combat: expert drivers' task pools are the *only* dice pool you can use with chipped skills, so it's usually a bad idea to chip a combat skill anyway. Chipped skills are best with things that require infrequent (eg. one per Combat Turn or fewer) checks, so you can use the whole task pool with each one. That way you cn chip a Rating 3 skill and throw 6 dice at it.
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jun 18 2004, 10:25 PM
Ah, The erratta. Thanks. Sorry for making an ass out of myself. I'm really good at it though. 
Well this kind of poops on my character. I got a bunch of skillsofts so I could be Mr Knowledge Skills. Even so, 4, 6, or 8 dice is pretty good considering the cost.
But...now I have 15000 to spend and like, a few hours to do it in. 
Posted by: BitBasher Jun 18 2004, 10:30 PM
| QUOTE |
| And thank you for that reminder...I totally forgot about that in my haste to be really useful to the team via knowledge skills. I guess I was blinded by being useful for a change. Silly me. |
You were probably blinded by the cheese in your eyes.
If you have to basically cheese the rules to be useful to your team, you need a new team. That's a situation of power escalation. Besides, you dont need skillwires for knowledge skills on chip, you just need a chipjack. So this is all moot anyway.
Skillwires are only necessary for active skills.
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jun 18 2004, 10:42 PM
| QUOTE (Cursedsoul) |
| Well this kind of poops on my character. I got a bunch of skillsofts so I could be Mr Knowledge Skills. Even so, 4, 6, or 8 dice is pretty good considering the cost. But...now I have 15000 to spend and like, a few hours to do it in. |
15000, eh? Well, you could go with alpha plastic bone lacing; that's always useful. Or you could go the analyst route and pick up an alphaware gas spectrometer with a rating 4 chem program.
On the bioware front, you can get a mnemonic enhancer 1 for 15k. Really a good idea for someone with knowledge skills; in fact you might want to free up another 30k somewhere and pick up the enhancer at rating 3 for the extra knowledge skill die. Then again maybe not; I'm not sure if that bonus applies to chipped knowsofts
On the gear side, did you remember communications? You can get a sweet setup for 15k there: a rating 3 microtranceiver, a pocket sec, and rating 5 broadcast encryption (always go with odd numbers on broadcast encryption; 3 is good for a starting character, 5 is wonderful, 7 is godlike).
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jun 18 2004, 10:59 PM
Yeah I got all that fun stuff.
and I know I don't need a skillsoft for knowledge, I just got overhasty while typing.
I just upgraded 10 of my knowledge skillsofts from R2 to R3 because the difference is exactly 1500.
And as good as a ME is, I just can't take it and feel good about myself afterwards.
Oh and my character took these to be useful to a better degree. 75 karma for language, read/write AND knowledge skills is pretty nasty.
I speak 3 languages, including English which I got for free at R5. Only have 6 knowledge skills though at 4, 4, 3, 3, 5, and 2/4.
Only really useful active skills are electronics and Electronics B/R. He's a martial artist who's got Wing Chun at R6 and two extra maneuvers, Whirling and Stunning Fist.
He's part of a Monk order. I invented a maneuver called stunning fist that works as follows:
Stunning Fist: The character makes a standard melee success test as normal at -2 power and -1 damage level. In addition to damage, the opponent is also stunned (+2 to all target numbers) for a number of combat turns equal to the full natural power of the attack minus 1/2 impact armor rating plus any successes generated on a body or willpower (whichever is greater) test made against target number 4. No combat pool is allowed for this test. Impact armor applies normally to resisting incurred damage. This modifier stacks with that imposed by shock weapons. If damage is fully resisted, the stunning effect still applies.
I also managed to procure for myself +1 reach, but I've got some seriously massive strictures (I modelled it after a Magic order) with 5 normal ones plus a NO FIREARMS rule plus dues for a total of 7.
aside from grenades and other explosives like plastique all weapons I use have to be muscle powered.
The +1 reach is conditional: can only be used when unarmed or using a worn weapon (IE: shock glove or hardliner).
Thus, if I counter attack, I get +2 reach which is swanky.
I also managed to get whirling because I wanted to be able to deal with a lot of opponents at once. Sure whirling is kinda crappy, but I figure a shock glove will work, and I just don't feel right if I can't be all Mr.FlailingAboutWildly
I figure that what kills a lot action in games is players not having the knowledge skills or the contacts to cover themselves. I figure this will be a fun way to bolster both of these fronts.
Besides, being able to speak a total of 8 languages all at once is just too damn much to resist.
Posted by: Zeel De Mort Jun 18 2004, 11:01 PM
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| But even so, CEDs are really useful, but it emphasizes the inherent problem of skillwires in combat: expert drivers' task pools are the *only* dice pool you can use with chipped skills, so it's usually a bad idea to chip a combat skill anyway. Chipped skills are best with things that require infrequent (eg. one per Combat Turn or fewer) checks, so you can use the whole task pool with each one. That way you cn chip a Rating 3 skill and throw 6 dice at it. |
Well, you can always get a DIMAP option on your chips if you like. It'll let you use an appropriate (i.e. combat, in most cases) pool up to its rating. Of course you do suffer [DIMAP rating]M stun when you disengage, and it does add a lot to the cost, but hey it's an option.
Posted by: Phaeton Jun 18 2004, 11:23 PM
| QUOTE (Zeel De Mort) | ||
Well, you can always get a DIMAP option on your chips if you like. It'll let you use an appropriate (i.e. combat, in most cases) pool up to its rating. Of course you do suffer [DIMAP rating]M stun when you disengage, and it does add a lot to the cost, but hey it's an option. |
You suffer damage from those things?
Well, so much for the IKKF chip...
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