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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Snatching Guns Off Enemies

Posted by: JakeSpeed Aug 27 2003, 08:39 AM

A street punk pulls a Colt Manhunter from his belt and pushes it against your forehead.

"Okay chummer, you've fragged me off so I'm gonna slot you. No offense." He snarls.

But this snot-nosed kid doesn't realise that you're a street samurai with wired reflexes 2. Without giving it much thought you snatch the gun from his hand and slap his face for being insolent.

Okay, here's my question:

Forgetting the fact that you'd have probably dropped this kid before the gun's barrel had cleared his belt how would you deal with such a situation i.e. a gun to the head?

Both making a reflex check seems obvious, but what about modifiers or suitable skill checks? What do you guys normally do?

Posted by: Ronin Soul Aug 27 2003, 08:52 AM

It depends on how the character describes it IMO.

One example that happened in a game was the Adept who instead of grabbing the gun actually did a full backflip kick, kicking the gun out of the guard's hand and landing a couple of feet back so he could unleash some big time arse-whupping of his own. I made that an athletics check at TN 8 but I gave him a two dice bonus for an excellent descrpition. Note that the guard had the gun about six inches away from the character's face. The character won initiative and the description of the action was good.

Another example was a guy who grabbed the ganger's arm just above the elbow, twist-threw him, grabbing the gun as the ganger (understandably) loosened his grip on it. That was an Unarmed Combat attack at TN 6 (Ganger's skill +2) with a 1 dice bonus.

Basically it can be done if the character has initiative over the opponent. In other words if the character is acting before the opponent. In the example given by JakeSpeed I'm guessing the character wins initiative. This means he can make an attempt and the ganger can do squat about it, gun to the head or otherwise. If the opponent has a delayed action then it is an opposed Reaction test.

Remember however that I like the dramatic. If the description is evocative I allow it even if it is technically harder than something I wouldn't allow because it's boring.

Posted by: grendel Aug 27 2003, 10:11 AM

It's a reaction test, with the samurai at a target number of 4 and the ganger at a target number of 2 (he's ready for the samurai to make a move) or 4 if some distraction is used (the samurai's backup pulls his own weapon). Piece of cake for anyone running wired 2 against an unmodified ganger.

Posted by: Dim Sum Aug 27 2003, 11:25 AM

[FONT=Times][COLOR=red] Actually, both counter-terrorist military and police units like SWAT conducted reaction tests over a decade ago when looking into refining their takedown / raid procedures.

The test had one basic scenario with several variations (depending on the factors being studied): an armed man, A, held a gun on an unarmed man, B.

In the first variation, A held the gun to B's head with the barrel in contact with B's head. The study found that in over 90% of the time, B was able to swat (okay, okay, bad pun) the weapon aside and engage A in hand-to-hand. B simply did not have time to pull the trigger before A acted.

In the second variation, A held the gun on B but stood roughly a foot away from B. In just over 40% of the time, B was able to move to engage A before A pulled the trigger.

In both the above variations, B was facing A. Basically, the tests found that a reasonably fit person with sufficient willpower to overcome his fear (facing an armed man shoving a barrel between his eyes) could (if trained) act before the gunman would have time to shoot. In other variations, the units tested angles, facings, etc., etc., and the study led to changes being made to tactical procedures to what we know today.

Don't ask for the name of the studies conducted - I can't remember. A friend of mine undergoing the training mentioned it a long time ago. Trivia aside, however, I'd apply a modifier to reaction tests that is relevant to the situation.

Posted by: booklord Aug 27 2003, 01:34 PM

A lot of people here are a lot nicer GMs than me.

I consider a gun to the samurai's head as a delayed action. Ruh-Roh. That means whenever the samurai attempts to make a move, the guy with the gun can say "I'm taking my delayed action" and fire the gun.

That's the bad news.

Now the good news. Silly guy with gun is standing too close. The samurai has a chance to slap the gun away. Which means Melee Combat! The guy with the gun rolls his "gun" skill vs. the samurai's "melee" combat skill. If the guy with gun gets more successes he shoots the samurai in the head. If the samurai gets more successes the guy misses. ( I have a house rule that the defender can only use Full Defense option in melee combat ). If the guy missed then on the Samurai's next action which happens right now he can use his melee combat skill to either disarm or disable or eliminate this guy.

Target Modifiers
-- I tend to determine Target Modifiers quickly during gameplay. So I might miss an appropirate one. I may even make one or two up if I feel they're appropriate.

The samurai
Base Melee Target Number
( reach does not apply )
+ Any Wound modifiers
+2 If the guy is standing behind him and the Samurai can't see him. ( possibly reduced if the samurai has blind fighting skill or ability)
(Some weapons such as whip are of limited use in this scenario. (Think about it) Appropriate modifiers would apply. )

The guy with the gun
Point Blank Range target number
( smart gun or laser sight modifiers do not apply do to extreme close range )
( He has a free Called because he actually has the gun to the samurai's head )
+ Any Wound Modifiers
+2 Range weapon in Melee

----------------------------------------------------------------
Things get a little worse ( or better ) depending on the characters if the guy is standing one or more feet away.

Target Modifiers

Samurai Same as before except....
I'd probably give a +1 modifier for each 1/2 meter the guy is standing away from the samurai. ( This modifier would not apply to Combat Pool Dodge dice ) only the melee skill dice. ( This modifier is just to show the difficulty imposed on suddenly attacking someone who already has his gun trained on you )
Penalty for not being able to see the guy would be doubled to +4. ( again blind fighting could lower that )

The guy with the gun Same as before except.....
smart gun or laser sight modifiers do apply. ( but only for this action )
Called shot is no longer free. He'd have to take the Target modifier or just aim for the center of the target.

Posted by: DigitalMage Aug 27 2003, 03:50 PM

QUOTE (booklord)

I consider a gun to the samurai's head as a delayed action. Ruh-Roh. That means whenever the samurai attempts to make a move, the guy with the gun can say "I'm taking my delayed action" and fire the gun.

If the punk has given the Samurai any time at all, the Samurai will now have a delayed action also and then it gets back to a reaction test.

Posted by: Kesh Aug 27 2003, 04:17 PM

I beleive the Israeli Armed Forces unique hand-to-hand combat training includes maneuvers for disarming an attacker and taking their gun (or at least, forcing them to drop it). I've seen a couple clips on documentaries, and it's quite impressive.

Posted by: booklord Aug 27 2003, 04:30 PM

QUOTE

If the punk has given the Samurai any time at all, the Samurai will now have a delayed action also and then it gets back to a reaction test.

Cute. But in this situation I wouldn't allow him to. ( at least not against the guy holding a gun to his head. ) Taking a delayed action is the equivilent of taking your gun and holding up to the other guy's head and then choosing not to fire. Obviously the other guy will take this as an extremely threatening gesture and choose to take his delayed action and try to shoot you in the head.

When that Lone Star officer points his gun at you and tells you to "Freeze" ( taking a delayed action ) players should be aware that the action of taking a delayed action doesn't count as freezing.

I suppose my problem with the reaction test stems down to this. A fast samurai can almost always win that reaction test. ( by virtue of simply overpowering huge amount of dice. ) But all the guy has to do is pull a trigger, as compared to the samurai who needs to make a much more extensive motion.

Posted by: grendel Aug 27 2003, 04:46 PM

Your example breaks down, though, because you're assuming that the combat turn begins with the ganger. If he has a chance to hold an action, that means we're inside combat turn timing already, which means the samurai needs to be able to hold actions, to dodge, and to have full access to his combat pool. Not to mention the fact that now that we're inside the combat turn, the samurai can either wait and roll intiative again, allowing the ganger to hold his action over into the next round but forcing him to act within his iniative phase or lose his held action, or he can drop out of combat turn timing and reset the scenario to a surprise action as stipulated on p. 108 of SR3.

The worse thing in the world anyone could do would be to press their weapon against you. Not only does it bring them clearly inside the lethal radius of hand to hand combat, it lets you know exactly where the weapon is. You would be surprised how quickly you can get clear of a weapon's muzzle when it's pressed against you. The attacker might still get a shot off, but the most it's going to do is deafen you due to proximity.

Posted by: Clipwing Aug 27 2003, 04:48 PM

What do people think if the gun to a person's head happened to be a smartgun? Since it would be mentally linked and the person holding the gun could fire it "at the speed of thought", would the rules talked about be any different? Perhaps just Intelligence dice being used rather than Reaction... Though I think I would use the Reaction opposed test with a +4 modifier (+2 for a non-smartgun) for the snatcher...

Posted by: Zazen Aug 27 2003, 04:54 PM

QUOTE (booklord)

I suppose my problem with the reaction test stems down to this. A fast samurai can almost always win that reaction test. ( by virtue of simply overpowering huge amount of dice. ) But all the guy has to do is pull a trigger, as compared to the samurai who needs to make a much more extensive motion.

That is an excellent reason to modify the reaction test. Simply apply TN bonuses or penalties. I think that the sam rolling 4's vs the gangers TN 2 works out about right.

Posted by: Sunday_Gamer Aug 27 2003, 05:20 PM

Allow me to borrow a page from the Hero System.

Covering someone: If you have an action in which you can fire, and choose instead to "cover" someone, be it from 5-10 feet away or point blank, once you're covered, you're covered, you twitch, he shoots.

So how does one get out?

1) If the shooter is distracted off his target, the whole thing is called off. A door opening quickly, breaking glass, sudden noise whatever, he stops paying attention to his target, he loses his advantage and it's time to play the reflex game.

2) a character who is MUCH faster than his cover, can opt for a straight reflex move, hoping to catch the guy off guard with his speed. Then I go with the flexes check again, but add bonuses to the guy covering (+2 or so) so the covered better actually BE faster, he's gonna need it.

Note that if the covered also has a held action, he'd better use it to stop the guy from putting a gun to his head, know what I mean chummer?

That's the way I run it.

Note also that a gun to your head is a called shot for purposes of damage.
Note that most body armor doesn't have a helmet.

There is a truer adaptation of the Hero System rules that makes the covered actually roll his attack, and hold it, giving the coverer a "feel" for how well he has his target.

Like the scene in The untouchables, Garcia "knew" he had his target, he covered him, rolled as assload of successes and with a smirk, announced "I got him".

One great advantage of this rule is to create tension between PCs and powerful NPCs without actually having to start letting the bullets fly.

I've gotten some great scenes out of my SRers running into a rival group. Because they cover each other and then they start talking, as the conversation progresses, people are covering each other, moving slowly to break someone elses cover by putting an object between them, rolling again to improve their current covering, there's an entire chess game that's precisely like a firefight, but no one is getting shot, and since everyone knows (or have strong indication at least) of how well everyone in the little game is doing, it affects the entire dynamics... well it's a whole lot of very cool scenes, usually.

You know, I never really stopped and thought about it before but I REALLY like these rules, they make for some great scenes in which your PCs can square off against each other or NPCs in a testosterone laden environment without anyone getting shot.

Sunday.

Posted by: booklord Aug 27 2003, 05:22 PM

QUOTE

If he has a chance to hold an action, that means we're inside combat turn timing already, which means the samurai needs to be able to hold actions, to dodge, and to have full access to his combat pool. Not to mention the fact that now that we're inside the combat turn, the samurai can either wait and roll intiative again, allowing the ganger to hold his action over into the next round but forcing him to act within his iniative phase or lose his held action, or he can drop out of combat turn timing and reset the scenario to a surprise action as stipulated on p. 108 of SR3.

First, once the ganger whose holding the gun to the samurai has his action he can simply choose to take another delayed action. ( Like I said if the samurai takes a delayed action it is a threatening motion to the ganger ) I allow delayed actions to be carried over to the next turn. I'm not sure what the book says on the surprise action reset rule ( I don't have the book on me ), but I would never let a samurai "surprise" someone who is standing right next to him, gun pointed at him, and ready to fire upon seeing any sudden movements. That makes no kind of sense.

EXAMPLE
Two lone star officers have Fast Freddie the street sam in their sights. Both officers have their weapons aimed and pointed and have just ordered Fast Freddie not to move. Fast Freddie has his in his draw holster in his lined coat. Can Freddie......
A) Surprise the officers using his MUCH higher reaction, and shoot them multiple times before they can get off a shot. ( They don't even get to use combat pool)
B) Wait til the turn is over. Then make a quick draw on the next turn and shoot the officers once each before they have a chance to react.
C) Put his hand on his weapon as a delayed action, signally to the officers that he is about to shoot. ( The officers will undoutably use their delayed actions at this point)
D) Draw and fire, but knowing the two officers already have delayed actions and they both get to use those actions before Fast Freddie can use his. If he can't dodge then he better hope his armor is real, real good.

My answer is D.

QUOTE

I'm not sure smartguns work that way. That almost sounds like the "Safety disabled" option in Cannon Companion. Sure eject a clip. Get all sorts of aiming and range info, but actually pull the trigger for you. I can see all sorts of accidents coming from that.

QUOTE

That is an excellent reason to modify the reaction test. Simply apply TN bonuses or penalties. I think that the sam rolling 4's vs the gangers TN 2 works out about right.

Your ganger has a reaction of about 4. A good samurai has about 10. A really powerful samurai can move a LOT faster. Apply the target numbers and do the math. The samurai is likely to win.

Posted by: kevyn668 Aug 27 2003, 05:56 PM

QUOTE

What do people think if the gun to a person's head happened to be a smartgun? Since it would be mentally linked and the person holding the gun could fire it "at the speed of thought",

Thats covered in M&M or CC, I don't have the books w/ me. The Smartlink system can't fire the weapon unless said weapon has been specifically modified to do so. I believe it involves removing the trigger mechanism completely. A great way to screw yourself IMO.

As for the main debate here. In the situation where the punk has a gun to the cyber sam's head. I gotta believe that being inhumanly fast would be enough to make a reaction check, maybe w/ a modifier but it still shouldn't be too high. If the average human in Sr has reaction of 3, we'll say that this punk is really good so he has Reaction 4 (or even 5). The sam is gonna have a reaction of at least 10 (probably). So even if the action is more exaggerated (moving part of the boady as opposed to pulling the trigger) he's at least twice as fast as the punk ("faster than any human as a right to be"--most overused line in fan fiction). So his motions are a blur as far as the punk can tell. Think "Slapps" or "Bloody Knuckles" from when we were little. Or if you want a cinematic representation, check out any action scenes from the Matrix or (better yet) the Sci-fi channel's Dune/Children of Dune.

Now if said Sam is covered from 3 to 5 meters away...different (or end of) story.

Posted by: Clipwing Aug 27 2003, 06:08 PM

QUOTE (booklord)

I think it's canon that they control firing of the gun as well. I know, for example, that when you're walking smartgun autofire, it automatically won't fire at targets you recognize as friendly. That's also in the novel "Find Your Own Truth" IIRC. So it seems to be part of the rules that the gun fires according to your thoughts, not your finger.

Posted by: booklord Aug 27 2003, 06:21 PM

QUOTE

Yeah it can stop the trigger from working, but I think you still have to pull the trigger to fire. Think of it as a safety mechanism. It'd be really bad if someones smartgun system developed a twitch so they err on the side of caution and require that the trigger be pulled and the smartgun system okays the shot. Operating without a trigger seems to qualify as the "no safety" option in Cannon Companion.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Aug 27 2003, 06:24 PM

An internally smartlinked gun allows firing through the smartlink if the mechanics of the firing process make it possible. There is a gun customization option "remove trigger" that makes it only useable by the smartlinked.

Posted by: Zazen Aug 27 2003, 06:30 PM

QUOTE (booklord)

Your ganger has a reaction of about 4. A good samurai has about 10. A really powerful samurai can move a LOT faster. Apply the target numbers and do the math. The samurai is likely to win.

As it should be. Welcome to the world of reaction enhancement!

Posted by: booklord Aug 27 2003, 06:53 PM

In my previous example.....

QUOTE

EXAMPLE
Two lone star officers have Fast Freddie the street sam in their sights. Both officers have their weapons aimed and pointed and have just ordered Fast Freddie not to move. Fast Freddie has his in his draw holster in his lined coat. Can Freddie......
A) Surprise the officers using his MUCH higher reaction, and shoot them multiple times before they can get off a shot. ( They don't even get to use combat pool)
B) Wait til the turn is over. Then make a quick draw on the next turn and shoot the officers once each before they have a chance to react.
C) Put his hand on his weapon as a delayed action, signally to the officers that he is about to shoot. ( The officers will undoutably use their delayed actions at this point)
D) Draw and fire, but knowing the two officers already have delayed actions and they both get to use those actions before Fast Freddie can use his. If he can't dodge then he better hope his armor is real, real good.

My answer is D.

So Zazen ( or any others ) What is your answer?

Posted by: grendel Aug 27 2003, 06:59 PM

QUOTE (booklord)

QUOTE

What we need here is the context of how we got into this situation since it affects how we rule on the outcome.

If Fast Freddie just stepped out of the corner Stuffer Shack to find two Lone Star officers crouched behind their cruisers with Thunderbolts drawn then he's in trouble. The cops have been watching him through the glass door and have each taken held actions. Freddie's pretty much toast if he goes for his gun now.

If, on the other hand, the pair of Lone Star officers have been warned that Fast Freddie is down the alleyway and are moving in a cover-2 formation searching for him when he suddenly steps out of a cross-alley on his way to the usual Wednesday night poker game, it's another situation entirely. Now it's a surprise roll, even though the cops have their weapons drawn and now, technically they're covering Freddie, neither one has had a chance to draw a bead on him. Hold action/take aim requires you to do nothing else, not even move. So it's a surprise roll, with the cops perhaps at a lower target number since they knew Fast Freddie was down the alley.

It's all in the context of the situation.

Posted by: Zazen Aug 27 2003, 07:03 PM

QUOTE

So Zazen ( or any others ) What is your answer?

I'd do just what I said before, roll a reaction test for all of them to see who shoots who, modified in favor of the officers.

For those circumstances I'd probably really stack things in the officers favor considering that the sam has to draw his weapon from under a coat. I think maybe Fred rolls reaction at TN 5 or 6 and the officers at 2.

Posted by: booklord Aug 27 2003, 07:54 PM

QUOTE

If Fast Freddie just stepped out of the corner Stuffer Shack to find two Lone Star officers crouched behind their cruisers with Thunderbolts drawn then he's in trouble. The cops have been watching him through the glass door and have each taken held actions. Freddie's pretty much toast if he goes for his gun now.

This would be the scenario. The cops both have held actions. The question is..... Is it possible ( assume noone distracts the cops for Fast Freddie ) that Freddie could possibly draw his gun from his draw holster. ( a holster designed so Freddie can draw his gun quickly ) and shoot at the cops before the cops can take their held actions and shoot him?

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Aug 27 2003, 08:03 PM

If he just stood there, probably not. I would give him a cance if his first action was to drop and roll, or otherwise make a big sudder movement out of the line of fire. So, dropping prone, drawing his gun, and shooting a cop in the knee would be a valid initiative pass. The drop disrupts the shots that the cops had, and might lead to partial cover.

Of course, a quickdraw holster in the right place, and he could get off two shots before most unaugmented would be able to react. If the cops have smartlink and their guns have the internal hadware, their reaction time to fire would be decreased to almost nil, meaning they get to shoot first except in the most extreme cases.

Posted by: grendel Aug 27 2003, 08:18 PM

QUOTE

The question is..... Is it possible ( assume noone distracts the cops for Fast Freddie ) that Freddie could possibly draw his gun from his draw holster. ( a holster designed so Freddie can draw his gun quickly ) and shoot at the cops before the cops can take their held actions and shoot him?

Well, the short answer is no. Freddie rolls intiative and with his wired 2 gets a 21. He makes a reaction test to try and clear his weapon on his first action, scoring well enough to get the Colt Manhunter out of the holster on his right hip. But, since it's first pass and the cops can hold their actions over more than one initiative pass, both pull the trigger on their Thunderbolts and give Freddie a case of terminal lead poisoning.

Now it's possible that other mitigating circumstances might crop up: the next customer in line might stumble out the door and foul the cops' line of fire, the cops might be more interested in taking Fast Freddie in alive, Fast Freddie's shaman friend could unleash the City spirit he's been talking to on the cops.

But, without any of that happening, Fast Freddie's options are looking rather thin.

Posted by: booklord Aug 27 2003, 08:19 PM

QUOTE

Okay here goes. Yes he can drop prone. That's a free action. So the order of events would be.
1) Freddie drops prone.
2) Cops take their held action and shoot at him. ( And if Freddie is VERY lucky miss )
3) Freddie draws his gun and shoots at the cops. ( with a nasty target modifier for sudden movement and lying prone )

QUOTE

Of course, a quickdraw holster in the right place, and he could get off two shots before most unaugmented would be able to react. If the cops have smartlink and their guns have the internal hadware, their reaction time to fire would be decreased to almost nil, meaning they get to shoot first except in the most extreme cases.

The ONLY ways I can possibly see that happening is either through the physical adept power that allows them to act first regardless of initiative OR Fast Freddie is able to draw a weapon without the cops realizing what he's doing. ( Maybe a small gun in a sleeve holster or a cyber-arm gun )

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Aug 27 2003, 08:28 PM

QUOTE (booklord)

( Maybe a small gun in a sleeve holster or a cyber-arm gun )

Both valid examples of "a quickdraw holster in the right place." A quickdraw holster in the wrong place would give no chance at all.

I never said that dropping prone would prevent the cops from shooting, but it should make them lose any aiming bonuses that they were holding, and might provide partial cover depending on what is nearby. Again, smartlink and compatable guns make it much easier for the cops to get a shot off before their target falls out of their current line of fire.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Aug 27 2003, 11:40 PM

QUOTE (Sunday_Gamer)

I've gotten some great scenes out of my SRers running into a rival group. Because they cover each other and then they start talking, as the conversation progresses, people are covering each other, moving slowly to break someone elses cover by putting an object between them, rolling again to improve their current covering, there's an entire chess game that's precisely like a firefight, but no one is getting shot, and since everyone knows (or have strong indication at least) of how well everyone in the little game is doing, it affects the entire dynamics... well it's a whole lot of very cool scenes, usually.

From the way you say it, it seems very much like the sceen at the end of enemy of the state. With people that keep coming in and covering someone untill someone comes in makes a distraction, someone jumps and moves to suddenly, someone else jumps and pulls the trigger and you end up with a whole load of dead guys.

Cool as sin!!!

Can you send me an e-mail explaining the rules you use in a bit more detail???

Cheers.

Posted by: DigitalMage Aug 28 2003, 10:10 AM

QUOTE (booklord)

Strictly by the rules the smart Street Sam would choose B) as held actions cannot be carried over to the next Combat Turn.

I don't think A is possible as the cops know Freddie is there and therefore can't be surprised.

Regarding C), why does Freddie have to put his hand on his weapon to indicate he is holding an action to pull the weapon. He could just as simply hold his action while holding his hands in the air (though the Reaction test to quick draw may suffer a higher TN because of it).

Without signalling his intentions, he now has a delayed action as well as the officers so it would come down to resolving as an Initiative Tie - i.e. Highest Initiative Score in first Initiative Pass - this is difficult to determine if the situation didn't arise within a Combat Turn, and so the GM could rule that the cops move first as they had the advantage, or the GM coudl rely on the other steps to reolve initiative ties (highest adjusted Reaction, then highest unmodified Reaction, and then finally a D6 roll).

D) Is certainly an option if Freddie is not smart and tries to act right away, rather than assess the situation (and effectively wait into a new Combat Turn or until a point when he can hold his actions).

The way I would handle this outside of a Combat Turn is to have everyone make a Reaction test with appropriate modifiers, however I would only allow each character take one action - e.g. Quick Draw and Shoot once, Shoot once (for each cop) or make one melee attack (if appropriate). This would mean that Freddie may be able to Quick Draw and take out one cop before he got off a shot, but he wouldn't get another Simple Action to shoot the other cop before Cop 2 opened fire.

Does that make sense?

Posted by: KawikaKeAloha Aug 28 2003, 04:16 PM

QUOTE (Kesh)

what you are refering to is called "krav maga"

usually they kill the armed attacker with the attacker's own gun. that's really cool.

there are different techniques for long, short and hand-weapons. from up-close to close to a leg away.

the success rate is usually around 80%-95%. don't ask me why the success rate is so high, but it's a proven fact. maybe the attackers aren't ready or don't think that somebody unarmed is going to make a leathal move on them, since they are heavily armed. THAT is what i call everyday shadowrunning psychology.

Posted by: Buzzed Aug 28 2003, 05:42 PM

This is a perfect situation to incorporate a suprise test. Chances are more in the gangers positiion since he would get the suprise bonuses. But if he doesn't have reflex enhancements, then it would still be a fair chance that the sam would win the suprise initiative.

[EDIT] Nm, doesn't look like the ganger would get a bonus.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Aug 28 2003, 06:16 PM

The surprise TN bonus for the Reaction test doesn't help a damn when unwared people face off with hyperwired sams. Most people without any kind of improved reactions will have at most a Reaction of 5, more often 4, the ganger is more likely to have 3 or even 2. The sammie only needs 1.7 times the Reaction of the surprising person in order to win the test, or an average of 9 to beat just about everyone, every time. And how many street sammies have you seen with Reactions lower than 9?

I agree with Herald in that an unexpected move like dropping prone might be the best solution, getting rid of some or all of the Take Aim bonuses of the cops. The cops would still get to fire, though, and would still be doing that at an advantage, so Freddie still has to be pretty dang lucky, or pack heavy armor. Perhaps if he clearly won a Reaction test, TN 2 for the cops and TN 6 for the Samurai, I might consider allowing him to draw his weapon and fire before the cops could react. Freddie better have a Reaction over 20 before he tries that, though.

Therefore, I s'pose my answer is a modified D) Draws and gets shot.

Posted by: Buzzed Aug 28 2003, 06:31 PM

Actually in suprise tests, reaction dice are rolled at a target number of 4. target number 2 if it was a planned ambush.

So the sam would roll 3 dice and the ganger would roll 1 die. Both at target number 4 it seems. Successes are compared. Then normal reaction is rolled.

If the sam rolls more suprise successes then the ganger, he gets to make his back flip when it gets to his combat phase. If he loses the suprise, then he can't do anything during any of his phases, not even a simple action, because he would have to roll 0 successes to lose the suprise test.

If the ganger wins the suprise, then he rolls his gun skill without the sam being able to use his combat pool during his combat phase. If he lost the suprise, but rolled 1 success, then he can do any action that doesn't involve offence against the sam. If he lost the suprise without a success, then he can't do any actions at all.

After the suprise combat round is resolved then normal combat begins.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Aug 28 2003, 06:42 PM

QUOTE

So the sam would roll 3 dice and the ganger would roll 1 die.

Ehh, no. Reaction is rolled, not Initiative. (Right?)

I know TN 2 only really applies with planned ambush, but that modifier was being thrown around (sort of appropriate, since the opponent is aiming at the sammie, waiting for him to move in a certain way, similar to ambushing someone once they cross a given line). I just wanted to show that it's nowhere near enough to just give -2 TN to the "ambusher" if you wish non-wared people to stand a chance against the sammies, unless you use combat drugs liberally.

Posted by: Buzzed Aug 28 2003, 06:55 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

I know TN 2 only really applies with planned ambush, but that modifier was being thrown around (sort of appropriate, since the opponent is aiming at the sammie, waiting for him to move in a certain way, similar to ambushing someone once they cross a given line).

As a Gm I wouldn't grant a tn bonus to the ganger since the sam would probably be weary of the gangers actions before it happoned.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Aug 28 2003, 07:04 PM

QUOTE

As a Gm I wouldn't grant a tn bonus to the ganger since the sam would probably be weary of the gangers actions before it happoned.

Assuming this is a case of the ganger drawing his weapon right before the samurai, so the samurai can see it happening, I probably wouldn't grant the ganger any modifiers either. It'd still come down to some sort of unarmed/armed combat/pistols check, though, to see how it ends up, put the sammie would certainly have a good chance of reacting on the situation quickly.

I was thinking more about the situation where someone already has a weapon trained on the sammie, and the sammie didn't see it being drawn, or couldn't/wouldn't react to it for some reason.

I would certainly not rule this with initiatives in any case, in the middle of a Combat Turn or not.

Posted by: Laughlyn Aug 28 2003, 07:45 PM

This is exactly why police officer, soldiers, etc don't put their weapons against peoples' bodies. Besides the fact that you can divert the shot much easier, you also have your weapon within their reach.

The bottom line is that you need to pull the trigger quickly if you want to be that close. Either that or sit back a meter (farther for a troll) and say your piece.

Posted by: Fortune Aug 28 2003, 08:45 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

I just wanted to show that it's nowhere near enough to just give -2 TN to the "ambusher" if you wish non-wared people to stand a chance against the sammies, unless you use combat drugs liberally.

Why not? That is the whole point of Initiative-ware, after all. I think granting the -2 TN to the ganger (or the cops) in a surprise test is more than fair.

Posted by: Laughlyn Aug 28 2003, 09:05 PM

It also really depends on the situation. The above given situation sounds about right. With a 2TN for the ganger and 4TN for the runner. The TNs should not be based on the character (PC or NPC), but rather on the situation.

If you take a ganger with a gun against said runner's head with a buddy doing the talking…I'd change the TN for the runner to a TN 5 or TN 6. Simply because the ganger with the gun has nothing else to do beside hold the gun to the runners head.

Still though with both gangers holding their guns on the runner, they'd stand a better chance. With as many boosted people out there on the streets as there are in Shadowrun, I'd make it a point to keep 2+ meters away from people who are conscious.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Aug 29 2003, 07:22 AM

When 2 cops have their guns trained on the sammie, it's not so much about the sammie's reaction speed, but the cops'. Regardless of how quickly the sammie's synapses work, he'd have to put his hand on the weapon, draw it out and fire in the time that it takes the cops to depress the trigger 1cm (or less, if they're any good). I don't think that's about reflexes, but Quickness and skill. But I suppose that can't really be reflected with SR rules, so I won't try.

I have tried this situation out with a few people with an airsoft pistol. Generally, even the slowest and worst shooters can get off a round before the other can even get a grip on his, even if the gun is on the hip or thigh. Moving the whole hand in two large arcs takes a hell of a lot of time compared to what it takes to twitching the index finger a tiny bit. Based on all of this, -2 TN is nowhere near enough.

But I definitely agree with Laughlyn on that if the stupid ganger actually drew the gun before the sammie and pressed it against his head, while going for a witty one-liner, TN 2 vs TN 4 is ok. I won't even try to argue that using TN 4 for both would be bad, since it's a lot easier to just swing aside a bit than to draw and fire a weapon. And in this situation, reactions really do count for both. I am certainly not trying to say that the ganger with the gun should stand a real chance against the sammie. I AM saying that Freddie would be in deep shit if that happened in my games.

Posted by: kenny26 Aug 29 2003, 10:53 AM

QUOTE (Dim Sum)

i find this very interesting.

i didn't know that it was that easy (if you can overcome the fear, that is...).

taking this into consideration, i'd say that the guy with the gun held to his head would have to take a will check (TN 6-8 or even higher) or the result of an intimidation check, whichever is higher. if he fails the will check, he won't dare move.
however, if he succeeds, i'll have him make a reaction check (4) against the gunman (the gunman would suffer a +2 TN if he is actually pressing the gun against the other guy's head). if he fails, the gunman gets a free called shot (for holding it to the head) with all combat pool available, and possibly the aiming modifier depending on how long before the other guy took action.

and about the time it takes to react. i'd say the victim's amount of successes from the will check would reduce the base time of X (i haven't thought of any yet).

however, if the victim wins the reaction test, he may take imidiate action (most likely with an unarmed strike of some kind).