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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Shadows of Europe
Posted by: maneius Jun 21 2004, 08:53 PM
What exactly is going to be in Shadows of Europe? I mainly want to know how much it has on London and the UK.
Posted by: Nikoli Jun 21 2004, 08:55 PM
If they told you, you'd be the target of an interdiction run.
Posted by: maneius Jun 21 2004, 09:01 PM
| QUOTE |
| If they told you, you'd be the target of an interdiction run. |
I cower before the power of your awesome wit and intellect
Not only are you funny, you're original too.
Yes, I know you're joking (at least I hope so) but come on, it was a serious question.
Posted by: Nikoli Jun 21 2004, 09:02 PM
Point is, nobody that can tell you, will. the book isn't out just yet.
The ones that would, obviously can't for the same reason.
BTW, didn't mean to be a jerk, just one of those days.
Posted by: Synner Jun 21 2004, 09:07 PM
To quote myself in another thread, and without giving anything away:
| QUOTE |
SoE will mostly cover Western Europe (mostly the NEEC member nations plus a couple of others). Besides Eurohistory, politics, corps, magic and underworld the book will cover:
|
The UK gets one of the larger chapters and is fully compatible with the old London sb (in fact fans who own that are sure to have a ball seeing how things developed in the intervening decade). London gets a visit but so do a number of other locations.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 21 2004, 09:33 PM
It it will be out....when?
I'm not nagging. I'm being good, please please.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 21 2004, 09:34 PM
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| To quote myself in another thread, and without giving anything away:[*] France - Dark hearts hold black secrets... |
HEY!!!!!
Posted by: Synner Jun 21 2004, 09:42 PM
LOL. It's not what you think. At least I don't think it is what you think. It's unlikely it is what anyone thinks. Though it might be what you think if your thinking is twisted enough. SoE is like that in places. The French guys outdid even me in digging up the past...
Posted by: Phaeton Jun 21 2004, 09:43 PM
...
I'm confused...
Should I stay out of this?
Posted by: CountZero Jun 22 2004, 02:21 AM
Is there anything on Germany, or should I just try to pick up the old Germany Sourcebook for SR2 (or will Germany be getting their own book)?
Posted by: Frag-o Delux Jun 22 2004, 02:27 AM
| QUOTE (Phaeton) |
| ... I'm confused... Should I stay out of this? |
Snow Fox's family is from France. I believe she said she is first generation American. Just a little bit of an inside joke.
Posted by: Phaeton Jun 22 2004, 02:28 AM
Ahhhhhh...Got it!
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 22 2004, 02:35 AM
That and Synner's been teasing me, without violating the code of silence, about this for what seems like years.
He's proving that dispite the sterotype, some guys can keep the foreplay going for a LONG time.
Posted by: Frag-o Delux Jun 22 2004, 03:32 AM
Well I'll tell you he has kept me excited about it. But really I am excited about any SR book, so it isn't much of a victory to keep me excited. I like bugs.
I don't know what it is but I am very excited to see some more stuff on Proteus AG. I have been fascinated with that company for awhile, even with the lack of info in English for it.
Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jun 22 2004, 04:07 AM
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox) |
| That and Synner's been teasing me, without violating the code of silence, about this for what seems like years. He's proving that dispite the sterotype, some guys can keep the foreplay going for a LONG time. |
Four and counting.
Posted by: Synner Jun 22 2004, 07:06 AM
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jun 22 2004, 04:07 AM) |
| Four and counting. |
Please don't remind me. This is the longest pregnancy I've ever seen
Posted by: shadd4d Jun 22 2004, 07:27 AM
| QUOTE (CountZero) |
| Is there anything on Germany, or should I just try to pick up the old Germany Sourcebook for SR2 (or will Germany be getting their own book)? |
Synner said something that SoE will use some of the new Germany sourcebook which they released in German. Believe me, having read some of the stuff from Germany and their German only books, there are massive changes, like the change of Berlin, rise of Proteus, death of Nachtmeister, disapperance of a king, Westphalen under siege by Shedim...there's a lot from the new Germany sourcebook that I imagine will appear in the SoE.
The old Germany Sourcebook is interesting though. I'd pick it up just on principle.
Don
Posted by: Synner Jun 22 2004, 07:44 AM
Please note that DiDS2 (the "new" German sb in German) is 350 pages long and gives a far more detailed look at Germany than we could ever hope to fit in a SoNA-sized chapter in SoE. On the other hand a lot of the stuff in the German sourcebooks is very specific and would require more than a passing knowledge of the country to get the full use out of it. I'd also like to note that not all the background in American and German canon prior to FanPro's take over of the line was compatible. Several changes were made to the German material in the English language Germany sb from what was in the original DidS sb (and some of the latter German books too). A lot of effort went into resolving the inconsistencies. Some of the results are already visible in DotSW (see Kaltenstein, Nebelherr and Feuerschwinge), others will be in SoE.
SoE contains some of the major threads and developments from DiDS (but nowhere near all of them) and describes the situation as of 2064 (including several updates for the German fans).
As with London and TNO anyone possessing the original sourcebook will have the opportunity to see how things evolved in the past decade and those books could be considered non-essential complements to SoE; just like CalFree, TT and NAGNA complement SoNA.
Posted by: otaku mike Jun 22 2004, 11:28 AM
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Jun 21 2004, 09:34 PM) | ||
HEY!!!!! |
Don't worry. I think Synner got over himself trying to summarize the complexities of the French chapter (please note the French natural haughtiness in this sentence
). Don't try to see anything relevant in those few words. 
Now please look at the red light... *Zap!*
Posted by: Nikoli Jun 22 2004, 12:54 PM
Not to sounds ethnocentric, by why does Germany rate a 350 pg book, to be released in German only? Is there some movement inside FanPro lbent on making those of use who play in the US jealous or something? Seems rather silly to go through the trouble of running up a print and limit it to any one language. This holds true for any SR book, there is no reason to not print them in any language for any country that has peolpe that want to play. I don't want to learn another language just to get the scoop on more metaplots. The death of a Great Form deserves to be known by all, not just folks who happen to speak a particular language..
Posted by: Paul Jun 22 2004, 01:00 PM
Because, as I recall it, the Germans really really buy SR product. As I recall it, the game is really successful over there, I mean really succesful. SO much so that there were several source books, and a few novels.
Can anyone check me on this?
Posted by: Nikoli Jun 22 2004, 01:02 PM
That's not the point. It's really successful here, but to my knowledge, every English print SR book has been translated into German. And we haven't seen an US release only, no German translation, 350 pg source book yet.
Doesn't seem balanced
Posted by: shadd4d Jun 22 2004, 01:23 PM
| QUOTE (Paul) |
| Because, as I recall it, the Germans really really buy SR product. As I recall it, the game is really successful over there, I mean really succesful. SO much so that there were several source books, and a few novels. Can anyone check me on this? |
You are correct. Every book has been translated, to my knowledge. There were 3 sourcebooks (Chrom und Dioxin (Switzerland, Germany update, Walzer, Punks und Schwarzes Ice (Austria further updates), and DidSII (big, big, big Germany update, contains info from the other two books plus some stuff they developed) and 2 adventure books, one of which is the book Shockwaves. There's also a trilogy of novels concerning the Proteus AG and some events such as the death of that Eastern Dragon.
Shadowrun over there is probably the #2 game after D&D (I may be wrong on this, but looking at the Fanpro forums, there's a lot of SR fans over there/here).
The new Germany book is great. It's probably (it feels) larger than the main book, but it describes every country in the German alliance. It updates them for post-year of the comet, and it includes a lot of plot hooks and in-jokes.
In-joke example: There's a bar in Düsseldorf named Campino. It's named after some rocker. You have to know German rock music to know that Campino is the lead singer of the band Die toten Hosen (the dead pants/it's pretty much dead around here, i.e. nothing to do/boring here) and to know why that's funny. There's other examples, but that and the Slippery are the only two that actually pop up, so to speak.
I do have 2 gripes with the new DidSII. 1) The map looks to artistic to be useful. Better off buying or downloading a map of present day Germany and making changes. 2) You really need DidSI to know the politics, security forces, etc. This is being solved with the new Target: ADL book, but it is still a bit irksome. On the other hand, it really, really fleshes out Germany: Sachsen as mercenary kingdom, a fleshing out of the dragons in Germany, the various countries and how they have been effected by the YOTC, a real look at the culture and mentality of the region and the environment. Probably, IMHO, the best suppliment I've ever owned, aside from rules expansions.
Don
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 22 2004, 01:46 PM
| QUOTE (otaku mike) | ||||
Don't worry. I think Synner got over himself trying to summarize the complexities of the French chapter (please note the French natural haughtiness in this sentence ). Don't try to see anything relevant in those few words. Now please look at the red light... *Zap!* |
Well we both know France should be the main chapter to properly cover her complexities.
Posted by: Abstruse Jun 22 2004, 02:29 PM
You know why there are more books in German than in English? THEY SELL. That's all the reason they need to translate them. You know why there aren't copies of the German update book? Because 10 people would spend the $30-40 to buy a book on a country they probably won't actually play a single game in. Hell, the original Germany book didn't sell that well. Also why the French France sourcebook wasn't translated. Well, that and it being absolutely ridiculous about many things...
The Abstruse One
Posted by: MYST1C Jun 22 2004, 02:38 PM
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| It's really successful here, but to my knowledge, every English print SR book has been translated into German. |
Nope.
The most recent example would be Shadows of North America that was not translated (there were loads of complaints about that decision).
Posted by: MYST1C Jun 22 2004, 02:42 PM
| QUOTE (shadd4d) |
| Shadowrun over there is probably the #2 game after D&D (I may be wrong on this, but looking at the Fanpro forums, there's a lot of SR fans over there/here). |
According to various polls held among gamers in Germany, the throne of RPGs is firmly in FanPro's hands:
Das Schwarze Auge (FanPro's fantasy system) has been #1 for at least the last decade.
The following places go (in variable order) to Shadowrun, World of Darkness and D&D.
Posted by: MYST1C Jun 22 2004, 02:50 PM
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| Not to sounds ethnocentric, by why does Germany rate a 350 pg book, to be released in German only? |
Deutschland in den Schatten 2 is a compilation of three previously published German sourcebooks (that have all been long OOP), plus revisions, updates and some new stuff.
Hence the size.
I'm sure SoNA could have been of the same size or even bigger. I guess the decision was an economic one. Perhaps a book of that size (with according production costs) wouldn't sell well enough on the American market where SR's position is AFAIK weaker than in Germany.
Posted by: Paul Jun 22 2004, 03:30 PM
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| That's not the point. It's really successful here, but to my knowledge, every English print SR book has been translated into German. And we haven't seen an US release only, no German translation, 350 pg source book yet. Doesn't seem balanced |
Well I guess I would say, and keep in mind I am not in any way officially connected to Fan Pro, that most American Players don't set their campaigns in Germany, so the cost would be prohibitive. I mean there are some die hards like me out there that have our Shadowrun phonecards, and Kage back copies but the average player? Would they be intrested in another Germany book?
Thats assuming the German books would translate well into english, and that we'd find them as appealing as the German crowd does. (You ever hear of the dead pants? I sure as hell hadn't...)
So until it becomes profitable for Fan Pro or whomever to do what you want-they won't.
Posted by: otaku mike Jun 22 2004, 04:23 PM
There is also an important point that seems to be forgotten: Fanpro Germany and Fanpro US are 2 separate companies, with their own market and publishing policy.
Rob Boyle doesn't supervise everything that is done for the german market, though there is a tight collaboration.
So, you can't be angry after Fanpro US because Fanpro D released a german only book. You may object that Fanpro US doesn't translate the book in english, but then lots of people already pointed out why it would be a stupid (commercially-wise) idea.
Posted by: Synner Jun 22 2004, 08:10 PM
The original Germany sb didn't sell that well in the first place (it's actually still available in many places) so its easy to see why FanPro US would be reluctant to put out a book twice that size on the same country 9 years on. In fact single country sourcebooks seem to have a poor sales record as compared to books like SoNA. Adding to this the fact that a lot of the material is German-centric and will never be used in most games and it's bad commercial sense to have the book translated from German to English, laid out again and printed (all of which costs significantly).
A DiDS2 (and an upcoming Target:AGS) mades all the sense for the German audience though since its their backyard getting coverage and many of them actually play Germany-based games. Furthermore, in Europe setting books appeal to more gamers than just GMs a common trend in the US.
The France sourcebook was a similar but different issue. Not only did it pose the same problems as DiDS, but it also ran roughshod over canon and introduced a number of "setting breakers".
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 22 2004, 08:37 PM
I have it but never really got into it. There was just too much and too much a sense of holding something alien, like being invited to a party where you know no one and know one will talk to you.
Admittedly I have a slight bias against Germans but If I'm typical, it might explain why it didn't do well.
Posted by: FlakJacket Jun 22 2004, 10:18 PM
Plus with the France sourcebook, whilst they got a franchise - not sure what the right legal term is - to use the Shadowrun world and do a book on the place, they didn't show it to any of the FASA/FanPro people before sending it off to the printers AFAIK. That along with breaking canon, having a serious case of 'Our country and stuff is so much cooler than everyone else's so nyah!' and generally being a bit on the crap side, it isn't canon and didn't get translated officially.
Posted by: CountZero Jun 22 2004, 11:48 PM
Hmm... I haven't had the chance to pick up the Germany sourcebook, and I kind of liked "Ragnarock and Roll". So, is there even a teeny weeny chance that Shadows of Germany 2 will either come out a) in a translated print version. b) a translated print-on-demand version (ala http://www.rpgmall.com/) or c) an E-book (either http://www.drivethrurpg.com/catalog/index.php or http://www.rpgnow.com)?
Posted by: Nath Jun 23 2004, 12:48 AM
As far as I remember, France sb did not contradict canon as it stood at the time of its publishing (1997). There might be an issue with the novel Night's Pawn (1993) since France introduced a son of Richard Villiers, but I'd note that same novel was also contradicted in Blood in the Boardroom, Darren Villiers becoming Richard's brother instead of his nephew. Only after France publishing did American authors add elements to SR canon that contradicted that book they never saw. France is still munchkin, filled with bad idea and stupid plots, and deserves a hefty load of critics, but no bashing for its respect of canon.
Posted by: otaku mike Jun 23 2004, 02:02 AM
Talking about "my country is the best of the world" syndrome reminds me of the incredible dragon per square-meter ratio in Germany 
If we limited ourselves about adding new dragons in SoE, it's mainly because Germany already had too much
BTW, I noticed the SoE wallpapers are no longer available on the official website. Anyone knows why they've been removed? Adam?
Posted by: FlakJacket Jun 23 2004, 03:17 AM
| QUOTE (Nath) |
| As far as I remember, France sb did not contradict canon as it stood at the time of its publishing (1997). |
Pfft. Details details. *Makes dismissive hand gestures*
Posted by: TW Jun 23 2004, 07:11 AM
| QUOTE (otaku mike @ Jun 23 2004, 03:02 AM) |
| Talking about "my country is the best of the world" syndrome reminds me of the incredible dragon per square-meter ratio in Germany If we limited ourselves about adding new dragons in SoE, it's mainly because Germany already had too much |
Yeah, the authors of DidS1 (Gemany in the shadows) really went over the top regarding the presence of big scale lizards in the AGS, true. But, the authors of DidS2 noticed that, offing Nachtmeister was the first step of getting rid of those pesky wyrms on AGS territory, next were Kaltenstein and Schwartzkopf (though not offed, they're 'off the map' and pursue interests elsewhere, as indicated in DotsW).
Posted by: Abstruse Jun 23 2004, 11:44 AM
Is Germany worse than the British Isles in that respect? They've got a few over there too...
The Abstruse One
Posted by: booklord Jun 23 2004, 01:42 PM
| QUOTE |
| Talking about "my country is the best of the world" syndrome reminds me of the incredible dragon per square-meter ratio in Germany |
After reading through the on-line Earthdawn dragon sourcebook, I came to the conclusion that there was probably two main councils of common (Western) dragons.
Now the notable Barsaive dragons, Dunklezahn, Ghostwalker, Sirrurg, and (by some guesses) Masaru and Hestaby, seem to have relocated themselves from Eastern Europe to the Americas sometime between Earthdawn time and the end of the fourth world. ( when the dragons were all forced into hibernation ) The only clues why may be buried in those "Aina" novels.
There was another western dragon council mentioned in Earthdawn times located around Vasgothia. The only known member of it was Lofwyr and at one time before he was kicked out Alamais. Vasgothia seems to be where Germany is in Europe. I suspect that this council stayed right where it was all the way until the end of the fourth world. That would explain why so many dragons woke up in or around Germany and why almost none of the German dragons can be traced back to the Barsaive dragon council in Earthdawn. They were part of the other council.
| QUOTE |
| Is Germany worse than the British Isles in that respect? They've got a few over there too... |
Celedyr is almost certainly a Barsaive dragon given his relationship to Earthroot ( I suspect he is Nightsky) but chose to instead go to the British isles possibly due to the incident involving the Great Tree and Earthroot. Rhonabwy is hinted to have a history with Lofwyr. I suspect that he may therefore also have relocated to the British Isles after a disagreement with the Vasgothia council.
The British Isles may have been a popular spot for dragons that fell out of favor with their councils. Close enough to mainland Europe so they weren't completely separated yet far enough away to avoid the major conflicts and intrigue that seemed to plague Barsaive and the Theran empire.
Posted by: Bull Jun 23 2004, 02:13 PM
Few things of note here...
FanPro, and several other foreign companies, licensed the rights to both translate and sell Shadowrun product within their home countries, as well as produce new books.
In Germany, Shadowrun was popular enough that FanPro (The "orginal FanPro", when itw as just a German RPG company) not only translated almost every book that came down the pipe, but also wrote... 4? 5? of their own books. There was a France, Japanese, and reportedly a Polan SB as well.
The licensed original material wasn't/isn't considered canon material in any way, as FASA didn't ahve any hand in the creation or editing of the products.
FASA decided to do a Germany Sourcebook after seeing an English summary of it, but made changes as they saw fit to adjust it to their needs, to fit it into the Canon gameworld.
When FASA closed it's doors and WizKids bought Shadowrun, they wanted to keep the game line going. The people most familiar with Shadowrun and in the best position to publish SR material was FanPro, so they gave Fanpro the license to print Shadowrun material.
Germany 2 was already in the works at that point, AFAIK, and had FASA still been around it likely wouldn't be canon still, though FanPro reportedly made a lot of efforts to keep Germany 2 close to the Canon SR world.
of course, with Fanpro at the reigns now, it's no surprise that it is considered Canon, but it's very German centered, and has been mentioned, a lot would be lost on non-Germans, likely.
Also, as has been noted, the original Germany book didn't sell all that well, and overall single-place/country SB's sell like drek. But SoNA and the Target books have shown that books with less single location focus can sell decently, so the info from Germany 2 was used as the basis for the info in SoE. Plus info and material from it is avilable to the Freelancers in case the data is relevant for other Sourcebooks...
Bull
Posted by: Nath Jun 23 2004, 02:14 PM
| QUOTE (Abstruse) |
| Is Germany worse than the British Isles in that respect? They've got a few over there too... |
Wales alone have all the three British Great Dragons: Rhonabwy, Celedyr and the Sea Dragon. Germany got five in the English version, Lofwyr, Kaltenstein, Nebelherr, Feuerschwinge and Nachtmeister, and six with Schwarzkopf in the original German version (even seven if you count Alamais in Germany in the Nachtmachen hideout in Night's Pawn, but you can't blame the German for that one). Now Nachtmeister's dead as well as more or less Feuerschwinge and Kaltenstein, Alamais moved to Norway, Schwarzkopf to Czechia and Nebelherr had been downgraded to adult status.
Posted by: TW Jun 23 2004, 02:48 PM
err, Kaltenstein isn't dead! That, in fact was THE major change done by the FASA guys while translating DidS1. They offed Kaltenstein in a half sentence, but only did so in the english translation of the book. For german fans and german SR authors, Kaltenstein wasn't involved in any fight with Lofwyr and Nebelherr and thus didn't die. Hence the hint on what was going on between Lofwyr, Kaltenstein and Nebelherr in Dotsw to get things back on canonical tracks.
So according to Fanpro (global) canon, in 2063, Kaltenstein is very much alive and kicking
IIRC, Nebelherr was an adult from the start, there wasn't any downgrading necessary.
Posted by: Abstruse Jun 23 2004, 02:49 PM
What, did he de-age? Leonization for dragons...
The Abstruse One
Posted by: Nath Jun 23 2004, 03:15 PM
| QUOTE (Germany Sourcebook - page 24) |
| By early 2012, four great dragons - Lofwyr, Nebelherr, Kaltenstein, and Feuerschwinge - had each appeared at least once in Germany. |
| QUOTE (Dragons of the Sixth World - page 168) |
| NEBELHERR Adult Western Dragon |
EDIT: Of course, rather than de-ageing, we could explain that just by the fact, the people on Shadowland really believed Nebelherr was a great dragon in 2054 and until , as DotSW put it, that if size might be usually the best indicator of a great dragon, it is not entirely reliable.
Posted by: TW Jun 24 2004, 10:26 AM
| QUOTE (Nath) | ||||
EDIT: Of course, rather than de-ageing, we could explain that just by the fact, the people on Shadowland really believed Nebelherr was a great dragon in 2054 and until , as DotSW put it, that if size might be usually the best indicator of a great dragon, it is not entirely reliable. |
Well, I should have known better than to start arguing with "Monsieur Encyclopedia"
Posted by: Jérémie Jun 24 2004, 11:56 PM
Almost a month since SoE got to the printer... and still no entry in the Fanpro/FFE page.
Any update ?
Posted by: Blaze Jun 25 2004, 07:45 AM
Having just read through this thread the only things that surprise me so far are the bits SoE isn't covering. I was kinda expecting (...and counting on...) it to deal with Greece and Western Russia. Oh well, can't have the moon on a stick- I'll just have to dump the crew in Eastern Poland instead... 
-JH.
Posted by: Synner Jun 25 2004, 08:17 AM
| QUOTE (Blaze) |
| Having just read through this thread the only things that surprise me so far are the bits SoE isn't covering. I was kinda expecting (...and counting on...) it to deal with Greece and Western Russia. Oh well, can't have the moon on a stick- I'll just have to dump the crew in Eastern Poland instead... |
It was essentially a question of space, SoE covers 14 countries in 240 pages. To have done Russia and Greece in the detail they require would have meant at least another 50 pages, so it was decided to save them for later projects.
Regarding dropping the team off in Poland... well, if you can hold on just a little longer I think everyone is in for a big surprise which will make it even more interesting. There are teasers in DotSW's Lofwyr and Calozerca btw.
Posted by: otaku mike Jun 25 2004, 08:41 AM
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| It was essentially a question of space, SoE covers 14 countries in 240 pages. |
err, last time I counted, that was 13 countries Peter
You work too much
Posted by: Synner Jun 25 2004, 08:57 AM
Euskal Herria 
Posted by: Skarn Ka Jun 25 2004, 11:01 AM
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Euskal Herria |
Free Corsica...
And Greece that-should-have-been-but-isn't ?
Posted by: sirdoom Jun 25 2004, 02:04 PM
According to Fanpro's Fantasy Shop newsletter Shadows over Europe is "out now" in the US.
"Schatten über Europa"(the German translation) is in the layout process and nearly on its way to the printers.
note: F-Shop information is 3/4-official
Posted by: shadd4d Jun 25 2004, 02:07 PM
Hey, Sirdoom.
Oddly enough, it's listed as out of print at Amazon, but having been released on June 1st.
Don
Posted by: Nikoli Jun 25 2004, 02:40 PM
Kinda like how the Pentium 4 was "out" and "available" but no store hasd one in stock for 6 months after "release"
Posted by: Synner Jun 25 2004, 09:30 PM
Let's just agree that the first person to actually lay their mitts on it posts confirmation here... the timing seems about right though.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 25 2004, 09:36 PM
Ok when the main name on the product doesn't know where it is, we have a problem.
I looked at stiggybaby, nothing and they're usually pretty good.
Posted by: Toa Jun 25 2004, 10:00 PM
Is there something to the rumor I read that Russia will be covered in Shadows of Asia?
Posted by: FlakJacket Jun 25 2004, 11:01 PM
Um... I highly doubt it. Most of Russia, thanks to the Yakutians, is west of the Urals so classed as European. They do have land in the far east like Vladivostok but that got covered in Target: Smuggler Havens so I don't think they'll waste wordcount repeating it. If they ever did a Target: Eastern Europe maybe, but not in the Asia one.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Jun 25 2004, 11:32 PM
Flashpoint: Balkans War fever spreads across the Ukraine and beyond as a brutal warlord with corporate ties begins a conquest to unite the Eastern Bloc. Caught between old loyalties and new money, then PCs must subvert the military might of three nations to survive. Can they overcome the rising tide of hatred, or will they become its next victims? Flashpoint: Balkans takes the characters and players to the world of 2064 throughout Eastern Europe in three dark adventures about loyalty, professionalism, and nuyen. An adventure set for experienced and beginner Shadowrun players.
Coming in 2064. 
Posted by: FlakJacket Jun 25 2004, 11:46 PM
So expect it late '66 then?
Posted by: otaku mike Jun 26 2004, 12:54 AM
| QUOTE (FlakJacket) |
| Um... I highly doubt it. Most of Russia, thanks to the Yakutians, is west of the Urals so classed as European. They do have land in the far east like Vladivostok but that got covered in Target: Smuggler Havens so I don't think they'll waste wordcount repeating it. If they ever did a Target: Eastern Europe maybe, but not in the Asia one. |
You know, the strict geographical definition of Asia would show Europe as a Euro-centric invention based on nothing else than the "we are better than the rest of the world" idea that was common during renaissance and until WW2.
Even if we accept the idea of Europe as a valid continent, Asia still goes from Turkey to Japan, from Siberia to India, from the east side of the Ural to Irian Jaya's end of Indonesia, From Arabian to Kamchatka peninsula (err, Kamchatka island now
). That's definitively a lot of possible land to cover.
Posted by: FlakJacket Jun 26 2004, 01:01 AM
I would have classed Turkey as near-east and the Arabian Peninsular and Iran as the middle east. Anything east of that is asia IMO.
Posted by: Nath Jun 26 2004, 01:17 AM
| QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Jun 26 2004, 03:01 AM) |
| I would have classed Turkey as near-east and the Arabian Peninsular and Iran as the middle east. Anything east of that is asia IMO. |
In the opinion of geographers, Near- and Middle East are parts of Asia.
Posted by: FlakJacket Jun 26 2004, 02:31 AM
Ah well, that probably explains why I got such lousy marks for geography.
Posted by: Skarn Ka Jun 26 2004, 02:36 AM
| QUOTE (otaku mike) |
| That's definitively a lot of possible land to cover. |
Oh yeah...
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jun 26 2004, 02:39 AM
| QUOTE (FlakJacket) |
| Ah well, that probably explains why I got such lousy marks for geography. |
Remember the campaign medels for Gulf War 1.0 was the "South West Asia campaign medal"
Posted by: Synner Jun 26 2004, 10:58 AM
| QUOTE (Snow_Fox @ Jun 25 2004, 09:36 PM) |
| Ok when the main name on the product doesn't know where it is, we have a problem. |
Please don't read anything into the comment. The build up to the convention season, at least four other book projects in varying stages of development and regular business can have negative sideeffects on the chain of communication. From what I have heard SoE should be hitting the shelves any day now, and that's enough for me. Since I live in the ass end of Europe I'll probably be the last SR fan to see it on sale anyway.
Posted by: Domino Jun 26 2004, 11:13 AM
I bet you can't wait for it to come out; so you can stop answering these where the H is it questions instead of pride for the work you've done and getting it published.
Posted by: Toa Jun 26 2004, 02:49 PM
So... is it time for a Shadows of Europe subforum yet?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 26 2004, 04:46 PM
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Let's just agree that the first person to actually lay their mitts on it posts confirmation here... the timing seems about right though. |
I won an auction for a copy months ago
~J
Posted by: Synner Jun 26 2004, 05:10 PM
As some of you will have seen by now (thanks Bull) Shadows of Europe is now available at Origins. It should make its way into stores over the next coupla weeks. I can't wait till we start getting reviews!
Posted by: Synner Jun 29 2004, 08:59 AM
Yay, we get our own forum. Now let's see what people really want to know about SoE...
Posted by: BIG BAD BEESTE Jun 29 2004, 01:45 PM
Where's the elf porn?
Er, no wait a moment. That was just the April Fools Day stuff over on FanPro's SR homepage wasn't it?
Oh well, open the gates and let the games (and criticism) commence!
(Psst, Synner. You run for the shelters and I'll cover you OK?)
"Ooo, Look! Is that Lofwyr and Maria Mercurial's lovechild over there..."
Quickly receeding hoofsteps...
Posted by: BIG BAD BEESTE Jun 29 2004, 02:22 PM
Oh, and just to answer the original question there...
As Synner states its one of the largest chapters in SoE (would have been far bigger but heck, we didn't have the space). Now we tried to cover as much as we could, but realise that the chapter was written as an introduction to the UK for people who have never lived there (IE: American shadowrunners). In this regard it isn't as detailed as the information originally given in the London Sourcebook. Not really surprising when you have to write into an existing history, explain a new country, catch up on over ten years of Sixth world events and how they affected the UK and still manage to squeeze some original new plotlines in there. All whilst bringing over the "feel" of the country to the reader (and mainly to the GM so they can impart that atmosphere to the players).
However, I think we managed it quite nicely considering the wordcount limitations. There was far more written that had to be painfully chopped out (heh, just talk to Synner the Scalpel wielder), and hopefully some of those ideas and paragraphs will manifest in other products. I know that I'll be using them were I can. Take heed all you UK convention goers - you have been forewarned!
PS> I'm not the one to blame about calling football soccer - its so the Americans wouldn't get confused with their nice armoured take-a-break-every-five-seconds version of a real man's sport like Rugby.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jun 29 2004, 03:51 PM
Rugby isn't a sport, it's a bar brawl (probably started over a football match) that someone slapped a few rules on
~J
Posted by: lspahn72 Jun 29 2004, 05:47 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Rugby isn't a sport, it's a bar brawl (probably started over a football match) that someone slapped a few rules on ~J |
yeah but enjoying violence while intoxicated is universally enjoyed!!!
Posted by: DarusGrey Jun 29 2004, 07:51 PM
I bought shadows of europe from the fanpro booth at origins the moment they made it available!.
Do I win the bought first contest?.
Aside from that..its...huge =/. I sadly spent most the con reading through it as opposed to playing games!..sad..so sad.
I don't feel qualified to give much additional feedback other then its good and worth the buy ^^.
Posted by: Synner Jun 29 2004, 09:11 PM
Darus, even first impressions would be appreciated at this point.
Posted by: DarusGrey Jun 30 2004, 03:03 AM
Not much to say other then I really like it..my only complaint is the first two chapters which seem really bland for some reason(just my opinion).
Rest was exicitng to read and learn about.
(Sorry..Im horrible critquer..just an avid fan..^^)
Posted by: BIG BAD BEESTE Jun 30 2004, 01:22 PM
ARGH! Bland he says!
Looks like your a REAL freelancer now huh Synner?
Posted by: Sepherim Jun 30 2004, 05:15 PM
First one down! Repeat, first one down! Mayday, mayday... damm, the radio is blown! 
Posted by: Nath Jun 30 2004, 05:20 PM
I think he already got some critics on his Lofwyr chapter in Dragons of the Sixth World. Me, on the other hand, is first in line with the Eurocorps. And it's in the first chapter (unless he meant 'section' by 'chapter', then it comes third).
Posted by: Synner Jun 30 2004, 07:23 PM
| QUOTE (BIG BAD BEESTE @ Jun 30 2004, 01:22 PM) |
| ARGH! Bland he says! Looks like your a REAL freelancer now huh Synner? |
Man that particular choice of words smarts.
Honestly though its hard to make the Eurohistory sound any more interesting with cramped wordcount and still fitting in some surprises (and surprises there are). And don't worry NMAth I'm almost sure he meant the NEEC bit. I expect mixed reactions to the NEEC since a lot of people aren't into that kind of political intrigue and some of the subtext.
I'll get really worried when people tell me the UK, Portugal and the Czech Republic are bland or dull.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 1 2004, 02:46 AM
Nothing on Stiggy baby, Amazon said it's sold out.
Posted by: BIG BAD BEESTE Jul 1 2004, 12:30 PM
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| I'll get really worried when people tell me the UK, Portugal and the Czech Republic are bland or dull. |
No worries there Term. We'll have their names....
Yup, NEVER upset a writer. Especially one who can imortalise your handle in the next sourcebook dealing with nasty horrible Aztechnology-inspired ways to die.
Thank you, thank you kindly for your generous comments and donations.
Posted by: mfb Jul 1 2004, 12:33 PM
no. the worst thing a freelancer could do to you would be to quote you, and put Bung's name on it.
Posted by: BIG BAD BEESTE Jul 1 2004, 12:35 PM
Always another possiblity. And we haven't even begun to explore the possibilities offered by Jon's Freelancer Crack...
Posted by: Sepherim Jul 2 2004, 12:16 AM
Using Jon's Freelancer Crack would be way too mean.
Posted by: Skarn Ka Jul 3 2004, 11:18 AM
Nevermind... Posted it in the wrong thread.
Posted by: Aesir Jul 5 2004, 10:14 AM
Heh. Reading you developer guys posts is like the real world equivalent of happening upon the "Laughing Man" handle in Shadowland. I feel so silly saying that...
Posted by: Adhoc Jul 5 2004, 12:22 PM
It's ok, most of us are ordinary human beings....
The large majority of us are humans...
and for the rest.....
Adhoc
Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jul 6 2004, 03:30 AM
| QUOTE |
Underworld: The refugee of the Dumpshockers. |
Shouldn't that be "refuge?"
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 6 2004, 03:55 AM
| QUOTE (BIG BAD BEESTE) |
| Yup, NEVER upset a writer. Especially one who can imortalise your handle in the next sourcebook dealing with nasty horrible Aztechnology-inspired ways to die. |
Actually, I would love to see my handle in a SR sourcebook, even if the context was my horrible death... that would crack my sh*t up.
So... if getting a writer upset at me is a good way to get my handle in a sourcebook... what's the best way to upset a writer?
Posted by: Adam Jul 6 2004, 04:28 AM
We typically appreciate it more if you just buy us drinks.
Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jul 6 2004, 06:45 AM
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) | ||
Actually, I would love to see my handle in a SR sourcebook, even if the context was my horrible death... that would crack my sh*t up. So... if getting a writer upset at me is a good way to get my handle in a sourcebook... what's the best way to upset a writer? |
How?, indeed.
Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 6 2004, 07:00 AM
I guess I'm in the minority (again), then. I'd hate to see my name in any of the books and roll my eyes every time I see a name from here, one of the lists, or elsewhere in them. Even moreso when its a handle used by the person writing the entry (and almost every time I've seen that, they were the definitive expert on the subject -- oy).
What I get a kick out of is when they come up with a really creative or witty handle for someone and breath some life into it with equally creative or witty commentary by that character. That's what roleplaying is all about. Copying someone's screen name just pales in comparison, especially considering the rather blase and uninspired handles a lot of people (myself included which is one of the reasons I jump so frequently... haven't found one that 'sings' to me yet) come up with online.
Posted by: Skeptical Clown Jul 6 2004, 07:17 AM
The vaguely nepotistic way in which Shadowtalk handles are drafted is something that goes back to the very beginning. Not saying that's a good quality though; I agree with Misfit Toy, it's kind of silly.
Posted by: tjn Jul 6 2004, 08:54 AM
Misfit Toy, is there any time you're not deathly serious about this game?
Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 7 2004, 09:35 PM
If preferring creative writing over unimaginitive chatter makes me "deathly serious," I suppose not.
Posted by: tjn Jul 8 2004, 10:27 AM
And somehow putting a name of a friend as a SL poster instead of making up a meaningless name turns it into "unimaginitative chatter"?
If the SL poster in question isn't an already defined character, what does it hurt?
What gets my eyes rolling is usually the opposite. Because "witty" or "creative" names usually aren't.
Posted by: BIG BAD BEESTE Jul 8 2004, 01:38 PM
Well, i try to invisage each STalker as a character and adopt that character's personal attitude about the text they're replying to. Just like if I'm reading through , oh say, posts on Dumpshock. Each and every one has there opinions, some are imformative and try to help instruct others, some are disinformation, others just can't keep the wisecracks out or just want to boast in the usual "Me-Me-Me!" fashion. Unfortunately, the wordcount limits some of the characterisation of the STalkers and all you're left with after editing is the raw facts/comments. *Sigh* Such is the Way of the Writer.
Anyhow, the street names that stick and cross-over from one sourcebook to the next are usually those with the most character. My favourites are the ones with a good dose of humour - they make reading the text fun.
Posted by: Abstruse Jul 8 2004, 03:30 PM
Most of the times the Shadowland users have "clever" names, they're just bad puns. I'd rather see a Synner or AncientHistory or whoever post.
The Abstruse One
Posted by: Skeptical Clown Jul 8 2004, 04:33 PM
What I preferred was when I had a feeling that individual posters had some sort of personality or existence outside of being a poster in a sourcebook. These days I just get the feeling they're all faceless ciphers, there to provide some information that anyone could have, and to make some reader smile. It's sort of breaking the fourth wall. The punny names aren't really much better though.
Posted by: Black Isis Jul 8 2004, 07:52 PM
I do miss a bit of the banter between characters, and stuff that carried over -- the things that come to mind are the Nightfire/Neon Samurai conflict. More personality and opinions and less bare facts with the shadowtalk would be more fun to read -- but admittedly, that takes away space from the content you might rather see squeezed in there (I mean, come on....SoE is already huge, by most standards).
Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 8 2004, 07:59 PM
| QUOTE (Skeptical Clown @ Jul 8 2004, 10:33 AM) |
| What I preferred was when I had a feeling that individual posters had some sort of personality or existence outside of being a poster in a sourcebook. These days I just get the feeling they're all faceless ciphers, there to provide some information that anyone could have, and to make some reader smile. It's sort of breaking the fourth wall. |
Exactly.
And creative names don't have to be puns. Neon Samurai, Laughing Man, Orange Queen, and Slamm-O are all interesting and largely original names for largely original characters within the setting. And for at least two of them, they're pretty creative.
That said, I'm infinitely more interested in seeing what they have to say, both on the topic and in reference to other posters, than just seeing some bland nobody (whose name was stolen/an homage to a real-life poster) just spouting some fact about the preceeding paragraph, especially since those comments could usually have been added to the actual text instead.
Posted by: Black Isis Jul 8 2004, 08:30 PM
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy) |
| I'm infinitely more interested in seeing what they have to say, both on the topic and in reference to other posters, than just seeing some bland nobody (whose name was stolen/an homage to a real-life poster) just spouting some fact about the preceeding paragraph, especially since those comments could usually have been added to the actual text instead. |
I don't have a problem with an author including a Shadowtalk post with the moniker of someone on Dumpshock who is known for a vast array of knowledge on a particular topic as a tip of the hat -- a shadowtalk post by "Ancient History" on a historical event comes to mind as something I wouldn't be overly upset about seeing; I'm pretty sure this has actually been done before too.
Like you said though, if the shadowtalk is just stuff that could have been stated in the actual "textbook" part, skip it and just put it in there. Make the shadowtalk interesting.
That said, I am still waiting for the copy of SoE I have had on preorder since last September, so I don't know if any of this is applicable to that particular book.
Posted by: Ancient History Jul 8 2004, 09:19 PM
<crosses fingers> I wanna be a shadowposter too!
Posted by: Frag-o Delux Jul 8 2004, 09:36 PM
The elves and dragons would have you killed. You know to much about the fourth world, they can't have everyone knowing about it.
Posted by: tjn Jul 8 2004, 09:37 PM
| QUOTE (Misfit Toy) | ||
Exactly. And creative names don't have to be puns. Neon Samurai, Laughing Man, Orange Queen, and Slamm-O are all interesting and largely original names for largely original characters within the setting. And for at least two of them, they're pretty creative. |
I'll give ya Slamm-O, but the rest of those screen names (not the characters behind them) aren't exactly what I'd consider original. And Orange Queen and The Laughing Man are puns.
But my point is, for every Slamm-O there's ten Antiflags or other disposable screen name that appear once, maybe twice, and then are never used again. It wouldn't hurt anything if instead of these disposable names the writer threw out a nod to someone.
| QUOTE |
| That said, I'm infinitely more interested in seeing what they have to say, both on the topic and in reference to other posters, than just seeing some bland nobody (whose name was stolen/an homage to a real-life poster) just spouting some fact about the preceeding paragraph, especially since those comments could usually have been added to the actual text instead. |
I agree in that what the shadowland posters say is most important, but I disagree that a dumpshock handle has to be spouting some fact that should have been in the actual text. One does not follow the other.
Posted by: Black Isis Jul 8 2004, 09:43 PM
| QUOTE (tjn) |
| And Orange Queen and The Laughing Man are puns. |
Okay....clue me in here, what is the pun with Orange Queen and the Laughing Man?
Posted by: cha-cha Jul 8 2004, 09:50 PM
If the pun with the Orange Queen is the one I am thinking of, her name is Hestaby and she is associated with Mt. Shasta.
Going from memory here, Shasta cola's tagline back in the day (early/mid 80's) was "It Has to Be Shasta"....get it...Hestaby Shasta...???? Orange Shasta etc etc... A little nod to us old fogies out here!
Is this the right one I am thinking of?
Posted by: shadd4d Jul 8 2004, 10:13 PM
I feel really old now, even though I'm 23, that I actually remember that.
Don
Posted by: Adhoc Jul 8 2004, 10:23 PM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| <crosses fingers> I wanna be a shadowposter too! |
Unless you've been edited out after the final edits of SoE was approved, you will be/allready are (ScU-chapter).
Adhoc
Posted by: Siege Jul 8 2004, 10:23 PM
I don't know if "Laughing Man" is a pun, per se - but it does reference Harliquinn.
-Siege
Posted by: DarusGrey Jul 8 2004, 11:17 PM
http://www.dominatus.com/ah.jpg
Posted by: shadd4d Jul 8 2004, 11:30 PM
Go AH.
BTW, I want this book.
Don
Posted by: Ancient History Jul 9 2004, 01:00 AM
| QUOTE (Adhoc) | ||
Unless you've been edited out after the final edits of SoE was approved, you will be/allready are (ScU-chapter). Adhoc |
| QUOTE (Adhoc) | ||
Unless you've been edited out after the final edits of SoE was approved, you will be/allready are (ScU-chapter). Adhoc |
Danke, Adhoc.
I didnae want tae jinx it. And now:
Posted by: last_of_the_great_mikeys Jul 9 2004, 01:08 AM
I'll never be a shadow talker. 
Posted by: otaku mike Jul 9 2004, 01:24 AM
Your name is too long, takes too much space
Posted by: Frag-o Delux Jul 9 2004, 01:26 AM
They might use it if they do a wrestling report.
Posted by: Sepherim Jul 9 2004, 01:27 AM
I don't see any real problem with writing a post with a real-guy's handle on it. It makes the player happy (usually), plus it offers a personality behind that name that is partially crafted out already. Besides, often, such handles are the same that their characters had (at least, that's my case) and many of those characters have/had been good enough to inmortalize them.
Posted by: Ancient History Jul 9 2004, 03:51 AM
I think I'm going to excise the quote and put it on my website somewhere.
Posted by: Adhoc Jul 9 2004, 08:42 AM
| QUOTE (Ancient History) | ||||||||
Danke, Adhoc. I didnae want tae jinx it. And now: |
Ancient History:
"Danke" = german
"Tak" = danish
...bu you're welcome.....
Adhoc
Posted by: Skeptical Clown Jul 9 2004, 03:24 PM
| QUOTE (Sepherim) |
| I don't see any real problem with writing a post with a real-guy's handle on it. It makes the player happy (usually), plus it offers a personality behind that name that is partially crafted out already. Besides, often, such handles are the same that their characters had (at least, that's my case) and many of those characters have/had been good enough to inmortalize them. |
The harm is purely aesthetic, of course. I don't think it adds personality, because even if I recognize the name, I rarely know much about the person or the character, and that rarely comes up in the text.
Posted by: FlakJacket Jul 9 2004, 10:15 PM
| QUOTE (Adhoc) |
"Danke" = german "Tak" = danish ...bu you're welcome..... |
Pfft. German, Danish, what's the difference? Denmarks the lumpy bit that sticks out the top of Germany right?
Posted by: shadd4d Jul 9 2004, 10:33 PM
Hey. Don't be knocking my old Motherland (to talk with my ancestors)!
That place is my second home (Germany I mean).
Besides, check out the official shadowrun site.
Don
Posted by: Synner Jul 10 2004, 01:21 AM
For those who haven't caught this yet... http://www.srrpg.com/fanpro/intro_soe.shtml
Posted by: shadd4d Jul 10 2004, 02:36 PM
Of course, it ain't cool when F-Shop announces that it hopes to get the English one in sometime this month. But the German translation is at the printers this week.
Arrr.
Don
Posted by: Synner Jul 10 2004, 03:36 PM
Christian Lonsing and the FanPro D crew made the translation a high priority and they've managed to get it done in record time (kudos guys). It'll still take a few weeks before hitting the shelves but it'll likely keep to the release date Christian announced a couple of months ago on the FanPro D boards.
The F-Shop is probably just playing it cautious so as not to disappoint anyone, specially since I hear they have a rather large pile of standing orders to get through as soon as the book comes in.
Posted by: shadd4d Jul 10 2004, 04:50 PM
My problem is rather that I'm flying home to America on August 4th and would like to have the book before then. That's more or less my major concern.
Plus I can see that they have a large hill of orders to cut through, given how long people have waited on this book (for a long time. It's noted as a sourcebook for Shockwaves which has been out since 2003)
Don
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