Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ the street index of the centurion laser axe

Posted by: xizor Jul 3 2004, 02:06 AM

i was filliping through the cannon companion and i found what i think is an anomaly.
the ultra new and shiny centurion laser crescent axe has a street index of . 5
that is less than most pistols and equal to the street index of the areas predator.

for such a high tech weapon i don't think that this is right...
just thought that i should bring this to the attention of people out in the matrix.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 3 2004, 02:16 AM

I've never understood why the Street Index is ever less than 1 myself. But when it comes to weapon stats, things like that are a mystery anyway.

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 3 2004, 03:03 AM

A street index less than 1 indicates market saturation. I can buy a Glock for 700. I can head to a nearby town, talk to some people, and get one plus a few mags for maybe 150. That's street index.

The crescent axe is just retarded, though. You're better off ignoring its existence.

Posted by: Tziluthi Jul 3 2004, 03:07 AM

IMO items would only have a street index of <1 when they are goods that you could normally buy over the counter without any legal complications, such as pocket knives, survival kits and so on. Why a laser axe would fall into this category is anyone's guess.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 3 2004, 03:28 AM

Items that might fall off a truck in bulk could also have sub-one SI.

Clearly, though, the Centurion Laser Axe has a .5 SI because everyone and their grandmother has a pair under their bed and a third in the closet.

~J

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 3 2004, 03:34 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Clearly, though, the Centurion Laser Axe has a .5 SI because everyone and their grandmother has a pair under their bed and a third in the closet.

Heh. More likely, it's because people buy them saying "wow, that's cool!" and then discover the alignment issues and don't care for them so much any more. People on the street have probably heard through the hype and simply aren't willing to pay full price for it.

Something that's supported by the Shadowtalk in the Street Samurai Catalog at least. It was SI .5 back then, too.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 3 2004, 03:56 AM

If the market became that saturated, the effect would be found in the "real" items, too. Because the black market would just be selling them through legal channels rather than taking a cut by selling them to a bunch of scumbags.

And I'm sure you do all your buying through the same channels you get your uranium, Arethusa. You're just that bad ass with your connections. Word.

Nevermind that what you describe is essentially a discount from friends/negotiations/used or cheap items/whatever. Becuase you can do the same thing at a pawn shop, an Army surplus store, or anywhere else they trade in used items/stolen/surplus items whether you're using a legal channel or not. Hence my lack of a decent rationale for any Street Index for equal-quality items that's less than 1.0.

Posted by: Person 404 Jul 3 2004, 04:05 AM

Legal channels, perhaps unsurprisingly, face risks from selling stolen goods, especially ones that require paperwork. In the case of mass thefts ("fell off the back of a truck"), it's really pretty stupid to jack a bunch of something and then try to sell it off through legal, public channels.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 3 2004, 04:16 AM

Yes, and you can steal a bunch of Browning Max-Powers, Remington Roomsweepers, and Ruger Super Warhawks off the back of a truck, too. Yet their Street Index isn't below 1.0 either despite having the exact same Availability. Hell, the Ares Predator II has a Street Index of 0.5 yet its not as Available as the aforementioned weapons. If items were so common on the street that they'd warrant mass loss of income, their Availability should reflect that as well.

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 3 2004, 04:19 AM

Just because its legal doesn't mean its public. It could very well be someone who is licensed to deal out of their own home for example, but doesn't make it known to John Q. Foolhearty with a wife and two demons of his own.

However they could deal to their friends who happen to be living in society's cracks, and over time this business acquires a name on the streets for the place to go for these certain items.

As far as the IRS type suits raising questions about their income, I don't think it'd be terribly difficult to circumvent this by selling only to people with decent fake SINs, or getting a competent buddy decker plant the files.

I don't know. I'm sure you veterans can provide better examples than I, the ignorant n00b can.

Posted by: Cain Jul 3 2004, 05:01 AM

QUOTE

Nevermind that what you describe is essentially a discount from friends/negotiations/used or cheap items/whatever. Becuase you can do the same thing at a pawn shop, an Army surplus store, or anywhere else they trade in used items/stolen/surplus items whether you're using a legal channel or not. Hence my lack of a decent rationale for any Street Index for equal-quality items that's less than 1.0.

Actually, Doc, that's a perfect rationale for it. The availiability rating applies to brand-new items. The street index applies to "Like new, only fired once, owned by a little old lady in Pasedena" items. Since the legal price has gone down, the street cost has gone down as well.

Now, the rules don't apply stress to most items, so an item of good used quality is functionally the same as fresh-from-the-factory. If such rules existed, then I'd consider applying them to street-bought items.

But, look at it this way. If I go to a gun store, I would find a very limited selection of brand-new pistols. I'd have no trouble finding something that approximated a streetline special, but finding a brand-new one would be trickier. However, I can find loads of used ones-- so many, in fact, the market would be glutted and I can get a very decent price on it. Now, the big retailers wouldn't bother with used guns-- anyone who's buying a brand-new gun either has so much cash as to not worry about price, or is is after something very specific-- but small-time gun shops or eBay sellers would have to worry about being undercut. Thus, the used price drops significantly, while retail remains unchanged.

In Shadowrun terms, I can walk into any gun store, and find racks upon racks of hold-out pistols. (True today, as well.) I'd have to pay full price for, say, the latest Tiffani purse gun, in this year's fashion colors and with new accessory clip. Or, if I wanted, I could slip someone a few nuyen on eBay and have them send me a gun that they've had sitting around the shop for a few years, and haven't been able to unload. They take a price hit, but at least they've cleared out some dead stock.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 3 2004, 05:07 AM

QUOTE

Now, the rules don't apply stress to most items, so an item of good used quality is functionally the same as fresh-from-the-factory. If such rules existed, then I'd consider applying them to street-bought items.

And thus you could buy them at the aforementioned Army surplus stores, gun shows, and pawn shops through legal channels for the exact same price.

Used does not equal Black Market. You'll also note that when the rules do talk about used items -- namely cyberware -- Street Index isn't modified, only Availability (and even then it remains exactly the same).

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 3 2004, 05:27 AM

So does this mean I can go into a gun store and throw a brand new gun on the floor, pick it up, go up to the teller and say "this one is dented. How about a price cut?"

Posted by: Person 404 Jul 3 2004, 05:28 AM

I think the process goes more like go into a gun store, throw a brand new gun on the floor, get kicked out of gun store.

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 3 2004, 05:58 AM

What if I use magic to knock it off the shelf then walk over, pick it up, and say "excuse me, this fell on the floor. How about a price cut?"

Posted by: Cain Jul 3 2004, 07:04 AM

QUOTE

Actually, in the case of guns, the "black market" doesn't necessarily mean illegal. Pawn shops, private owners, and eBay can all equal a huge grey market. You don't seem to understand that while buying guns and weapons through those channels isn't illegal, it's not precicely legal, either-- hence the term "grey market". And while the normal market may or may not be saturated, if the grey market is, prices for used items will be driven down.

Let's use comic books as another example. (We can substitute in beanie babies, Magic cards, or the collectable of your choice.) New comics have a fixed price-- cover price-- that everyone will be selling at. You decide to sell off a few older comics that you have-- you figure, at 3 bucks apiece for retail, you should make as much back, right?

Now, having sold more than a few comics in my life, I can safely say: Not a chance in hell. Unless the comic you have is ultra-rare, you're going to be lucky to even come close to cover price. While the cover price may be more, the amount you'll get from selling it will be significantly lower-- and if the title's not especially popular, it may even end up in the 25-cent bin.

A similar thing can happen for guns and the like. New guns won't alter their price much, since those prices are set by the manufacturer. However, "like new" guns might just be glutting the market. People will still buy new guns, just like people will buy new comics-- or new Magic packs, even though there's a fair chance of repeats-- but the used market will be saturated and prices will drop.

You'll also note that for used cyber, the price is directly modified, which translates into a street index reduction. Street index only affects price, after all. We could use the price modifiers as street index modifiers insead; the math would still work out.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 3 2004, 07:15 AM

QUOTE

We're not talking about the "grey market" or even weapons. We're talking about the Street Index.

When you buy something with a Street Index, they are not used items (well, they can be, but they're not be default). They're every bit as brand-spanking-new as if you had bought them at the Mall of America.

The description for what Street Index is supposed to represent just makes it that much more baffling -- it's supposed to represent, at least primarily, how many "middle men" ("from thieves to their fences to black marketeers to fixers to runners") your dealer had to go through before said item makes it into your hand. Apparently, some items -- very specific items, not just general items -- are easier to get on the black market than they are through completely legal channels. So much so that it's cheaper because they go through fewer "middle men." Or something. Somehow. And only for very specific items. For some reason. That I can't fathom. Because it's stupid.

Discounts for used, stressed, or otherwise cheap equipment should be a universal modifier. A low Street Index is not an indication of any of those things by default.

QUOTE

You'll also note that for used cyber, the price is directly modified, which translates into a street index reduction. Street index only affects price, after all. We could use the price modifiers as street index modifiers insead; the math would still work out.

No it doesn't and no we can't. They're two completely seperate things. A reduction in price doesn't equal Street Index anymore than any of the other things you're trying to BS with above.

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 3 2004, 07:37 AM

Is there some reason you're assuming that all items you get through a fixer were at some point purchased for full retail price? And is it at all a sensible reason?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 3 2004, 09:07 AM

Arethusa said in the 3rd msg in this thread: "I can buy a Glock for 700. I can head to a nearby town, talk to some people, and get one plus a few mags for maybe 150. That's street index." And I completely agree. Other items that sure as hell have a sub-zero "Street Index" IRL, at least in Finland, include alcohol and tobacco, video games, music, (old) firearms, gasoline, cars, etc.

Goods which are easy to bootleg or steal, goods which people just "have to" get, and especially goods which are heavily taxed or otherwise restricted -- permits, etc. Such goods are often cheaper to buy on the streets, if you've got contacts, than over the counter and legally. The difference in quality is negligible as long as you have decent fixers and don't mind having bootleg items sometimes.

I'll agree that the Centurion Laser Axe Street Index is, uhh, a bit silly, as is the weapon itself. So just change the SI to 2, for example

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 3 2004, 02:11 PM

The problem isn't that they're easy to steal (that would be reflected in Availability), or "have to get" (I doubt if an Ares Predator is in more demand than any other pistol), or heavily taxed (ditto). The problem is the exact opposite -- they're identical. There's no reason why most of the items should have a comparitely low Street Index compared to other items.

Blanket items having a low Street Index with exceptions being significantly higher... that I can almost see. Clothing in general, pistols in general, electronics in general, etc. But there's no logical reason anyone here has given me for an Ares Predator to have a lower Street Index than, say, a Browning Max Power, Remington Roomsweeper, or Ruger Super Warhawk, or any of the other pistols with an identical Availability or similar base cost.

Note also that you put firearms in the (old) category. As in used and outdated. But... oh well, nevermind. I'll give up the topic.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 3 2004, 02:31 PM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

But there's no logical reason anyone here has given me for an Ares Predator to have a lower Street Index than, say, a Browning Max Power, Remington Roomsweeper, or Ruger Super Warhawk, or any of the other pistols with an identical Availability or similar base cost.

People've already said that it's because there are more of them. Maybe if you said why you find that unsatisfactory, it'd help.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 3 2004, 02:41 PM

Okay, I was still under the impression you were saying that no item should ever have Street Index below one. Because you said: "I've never understood why the Street Index is ever less than 1 myself. But when it comes to weapon stats, things like that are a mystery anyway." Anyway...

I agree that there is no good reason why one specific item would have a far lower SI than another similar item, at least when that leads to a far lower street price as well. The 0.5 SI of the Ares Predator that you mentioned, for example, is a bit silly when most other Heavy Pistols are at 1 or more. SIs should be similar with similar items, like you said. Slight variations aren't a proble, but half the street price with two almost identical weapons is odd, since the Predator is certainly not an AK-47 of handguns.

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

Note also that you put firearms in the (old) category. As in used and outdated.

Yes, I put the (old) there on purpose. It takes a while for firearms to end up on the streets and cheap. That's why an AK-97 should have a really low SI compared to an Ares Alpha, for example. High-tech, brand spanking new weapons that are not used in large numbers shouldn't have low SIs.

And yes, weapons sold on the streets probably are used more often than not. That has nothing to do with being outdated though. A 20-year-old AK-74 is hardly outdated. And it can be premium quality, too, assuming it's been maintained well.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 3 2004, 02:49 PM

QUOTE (Zazen)

People've already said that it's because there are more of them. Maybe if you said why you find that unsatisfactory, it'd help.

Because there aren't more of them. That's a reflection of Availability. As has been said multiple times. But like I said, I'm dropping it... just clarifying this one point.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 3 2004, 04:05 PM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

Because there aren't more of them. That's a reflection of Availability.

One wonders how I could ever get ammo for my Slivergun, seeing as there are as many clips of flechette ammo as there are units of the gun!

Availability rates how hard it is to get someone to sell you one, not how many of them there are. Quantity may have an effect on that but it isn't the sole determiner. There is still some bare-minimum difficulty (TN 3), no matter how many are out there, to buying a heavy pistol illegally.

Posted by: mfb Jul 3 2004, 04:29 PM

neither Availability nor Street Index necessarily indicate how many there are. If there are 500,000 Kewl Lazer Axes in a Yak warehouse, waiting for the arrival of the promised Badass Axe Samurai Brigade from Nippon, the Availability for them might be pretty high because the Yaks don't want any of their enemies getting hands on them. however, if you're friends with the right Yaks, you might be able to get one of those Kewl Lazer Axes for only half what you'd pay at Weapons World--after all, there's only 50 Badass Axe Samurai in the entire Badass Axe Samurai Brigade, leaving 499,950 Kewl Lazer Axes that the Yaks will have to offload at some point.

the moral of the story is, economics is a subject that people spend years and years studying, and you shouldn't assume that your limited ability to count the number of dollars in your wallet amounts to a grasp of the subtleties of the economic world--more to the point, you shouldn't assume that the combination of Street Index and Availability can do more than roughly approximate that widely-studied discipline.

because i'm growing moderate in my old age, i'll note here that if you feel insulted by the above, it's because you're not grasping the humor.

Posted by: Cain Jul 4 2004, 02:30 AM

QUOTE

When you buy something with a Street Index, they are not used items (well, they can be, but they're not be default). They're every bit as brand-spanking-new as if you had bought them at the Mall of America.

Actually, that goes both ways. What is true is that the items bought are considered to be of like-new quality, with no significant flaws. Rather or not they're still-got-the-original-packaging new is highly debateable-- and in some cases, directly contraindicated, as in the case of Deckers with the backstory of building their own decks.

QUOTE

Apparently, some items -- very specific items, not just general items -- are easier to get on the black market than they are through completely legal channels. So much so that it's cheaper because they go through fewer "middle men." Or something.

You've just described the entire basis for smuggling. Okay, let's go for a real-world example. Right now, there's a huge controversy, because perscription drugs cost significantly less in Canada than they do here. There's an active "smuggling" market, where either people ship the drugs here, or drive seniors up there. This is all illegal on the whole, but each step is actually perfectly legal, which complicates matters. (Technically, it's illegal to leave the country with the intent to buy drugs; but proving intent is damnably hard, especailly since simple posession isn't a crime.)

This whole mess isn't exactly "black market", but it's not perfectly legal and aboveboard either. Thus, "grey market", for things that aren't actually illegal but are transacted in a less-than-legal manner.

QUOTE

Blanket items having a low Street Index with exceptions being significantly higher... that I can almost see. Clothing in general, pistols in general, electronics in general, etc. But there's no logical reason anyone here has given me for an Ares Predator to have a lower Street Index than, say, a Browning Max Power, Remington Roomsweeper, or Ruger Super Warhawk, or any of the other pistols with an identical Availability or similar base cost.

I can see one right off the bat: cheap knock-offs. Remember, by canon, the Ares Predator isn't a specific gun-- it represents a whole lot of different handgun designs with minimal differences. If we also include a bundle of cheap forgeries, that work just as well, then the entire set of handguns will be devalued. The only problem is that by canon, we assume that all guns work identically to their brand-new condition, which isn't the case-- but in any event, that's a different lack, and not a problem with the Street Index rules.

The Ares Predator, in particular, seems to be representative of a whole lot of different handguns-- any semiauto pistol from .40 to .50 BMG would be my guess, although I'll leave it to the gun experts to tell me the specifics. The Ruger Super Warhawk seems to be the representative gun for all single-action, large-caliber revolvers. If we assume there's more semiautos on the market than revolvers, (a fair assumption, based on the last time I went to a gun store) then there's a good reason for them to have a lower availiability.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 4 2004, 04:23 AM

There are a lot of good points being of made. SI is, on a whole, a representation of supply vs. demand. If there is a demand for that type of item and a limited supply, there will be a high SI. If there is a low demand in relation to the supply, there will be a low SI. In the case of the laser axe, there is a lot less demand than there is supply (because of the alignment issues). It's rare that anyone actually buys one compared to how many dealers have them on the shelves.

Eventually, the dealers start cutting the prices, hoping for more buyers. Eventually, the prices dip below the MSRP and you get get a sub 1 SI.

I'd also say that the price people pay for items on a legal basis has some variation which isn't reflected in the rules. Just because a widget normally sells for 1000 doesn't mean that Joe Wageslave pays 1000 for it. Take automobiles today. I recently bought a car and payed about 5% less than the MSRP. If I'd wanted a high demand/low supply vehicle (most of the hybrids these days) I could have expected to pay 5-10% or more over MSRP.

Posted by: tisoz Jul 4 2004, 07:14 AM

The Centurion Laser Axe has a lower SI because when you need the laser realigned you can't take it into Weapons World and have the work done. Because you don't know if the serial numbers are going to show up as stolen and land you in jail.

Predator !! has low SI because there are so many used ones floating around driving the demand down in the secondary market.

At least that's the explanations in my game.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 4 2004, 10:31 AM

QUOTE (Cain)

The Ares Predator, in particular, seems to be representative of a whole lot of different handguns-- any semiauto pistol from .40 to .50 BMG would be my guess, although I'll leave it to the gun experts to tell me the specifics.

I'm not an expert, but .50BMG and pistols don't match. See http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ammo/img/50s.gif for why. That's pretty close to real size, at least on a 17" monitor. No, the .50s you get in pistols are not BMGs. This is why you should always, always use the full names of calibers. The .50 Desert Eagles are .50 Action Express (.50 AE), the .50 Barretts and M2HBs are .50 Browning Machine Gun (.50 BMG). When people first hear of .50 pistols and rifles and machine guns and then they hear about there being .50 BMGs, they are bound to make that mistake.

I blame the US military.

The lower limit of Heavy Pistols is certainly debatable, because there are no Medium Pistols, but I'd consider the "Ares Predator" entry to cover most large-frame low-priced pistols in the .357 SIG - .45 Winchester Magnum range.

QUOTE (Cain)

If we assume there's more semiautos on the market than revolvers, (a fair assumption, based on the last time I went to a gun store) then there's a good reason for them to have a lower availiability.

Sure, the differences between Ares Predators and Ruger Super Warhawks I don't have much of a problem with. Now take Ares Predators vs Browning Max-Powers. The Browning Max-Power entry covers weapons that are otherwise identical to the Ares Predator, except that they have a smaller frame, and somehow they are twice as expensive on the street, even though they are equally expensive when bought over-the-counter and they are just as available in the grey and black markets.

Posted by: Cain Jul 4 2004, 11:28 PM

QUOTE

I'm not an expert, but .50BMG and pistols don't match.

My mistake. .50 AE, then.

QUOTE

I'd suggest the cheap knock-off factor. Ares being the premier gun maker, if someone's going to make a knock-off, they're going to copy the top-of-the-line product and not a midrange one. I also believe that somewhere in the books, it mentions an Ares executive who accidentally flooded the market in an attempt to gain dominance. Another thing to consider is concealability. Smaller guns with equal power would be more popular.

Finally, while I don't know guns very well at all, sometimes very small differences can make a huge difference in price. Just look at car prices for several good examples of this.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jul 5 2004, 12:26 AM

QUOTE (TinkerGnome)

There are a lot of good points being of made. SI is, on a whole, a representation of supply vs. demand. If there is a demand for that type of item and a limited supply, there will be a high SI.

I'm gonna use that the next time one of my players asks for a Barret 121.

Fixer: "Sure i can get one, but your like the 4th person to ask for one and there not that easy to come by to start with..."

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 5 2004, 02:10 AM

Certainly fits with the SI of the Barret and its ammo. There are simply fewer guns on the market than there are snipers looking to buy them

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 5 2004, 03:43 AM

QUOTE (Cain)

I'd suggest the cheap knock-off factor. Ares being the premier gun maker, if someone's going to make a knock-off, they're going to copy the top-of-the-line product and not a midrange one.

It's a safe bet the small-frame Ares "heavy pistol" sells more than the Browning Max-Power. The entry is named after a less-common pistol of the type in order to avoid repetition. There would be tons of cheap knock-offs of those Ares pistols, too, which are statistically identical to Browning Max-Powers.

QUOTE (Cain)

Finally, while I don't know guns very well at all, sometimes very small differences can make a huge difference in price. Just look at car prices for several good examples of this.

This doesn't work too well with these particular 2 gun archetypes, because they both seem to represent guns from a great range of makers, and they are nearly identical except that the other is smaller-framed.

I think you would struggle to find an example of car prices where two cars from the same manufacturer (representing Ares), one sedan and one smaller but otherwise almost identical, cost the same amount when you buy them new and over-the-counter, but the other is half the price when you buy one stolen, smuggled or just under-the-counter. Some price variation might well be present, at +/- 10-20%, but not that much.

Posted by: Cain Jul 5 2004, 07:03 AM

QUOTE

Maybe, maybe not. There's a lot of cheap knock-offs of Britney Spears CD's, and fewer knockoffs of Enya. There's no accounting for taste.

QUOTE

I think you would struggle to find an example of car prices where two cars from the same manufacturer (representing Ares), one sedan and one smaller but otherwise almost identical, cost the same amount when you buy them new and over-the-counter, but the other is half the price when you buy one stolen, smuggled or just under-the-counter. Some price variation might well be present, at +/- 10-20%, but not that much.

Kia cars in general tend to run like that. The newer models tend to hold their value much better, but the low-end Rio's lose their values really quickly. As a little-known fact, the Ford Aspires were originally made by Kia, before they started their own line of sedans. So, if we compare a 97 Aspire to a 98 Sephia, we see very little difference in book cost. IIRC, they were both released as low-cost cars, so they would have been similar in price.

So, what happens when we run an eBay motors search? When checking out completed listings on "Ford Aspire", I get a top price of $1,100 for an Aspire. When ckeching out "Kia Sephia 1998", my top price is $2400. At the bottom end, the cheapest Aspire (a 97, incidentally) goes for $500, versus $1450 for a 98 Sephia.

I'm far too lazy to do a more detailed check than all that, but that should prove my point. Prices for very similar cars can vary widely. I didn't have to struggle much at all to find those cars for comparison, either-- the hardest part was digging up the exact prices on eBay. If I wanted to run a less fair comparison, I'd compare a 98 Sephia with a 2004 Optima.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 5 2004, 07:10 AM

"Cheap knock-offs" don't account for Street Index any more than most of the stuff you've mentioned, too. If it did, just about everything would have a cheaper Street Index. "Cheap knock-offs" would also be listed as a legal price, just like your aforementioned browsing on eBay demonstrates.

Street Index means exactly one thing: The price you pay when purchasing the exact same item on the Black Market. It's not a cheap knock-off. It's not a used item. It's exactly the same as the legal item in all ways except one: You bought it on the Black Market instead of a legal shop.

If there was a "cheap knock-off" aspect to equipment, it would be a universal modifier like "used item" would be. Neither of these are covered for most equipment in the game, however, but then again neither is "superior workmanship."

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 5 2004, 02:21 PM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

Street Index means exactly one thing: The price you pay when purchasing the exact same item on the Black Market. It's not a cheap knock-off. It's not a used item. It's exactly the same as the legal item in all ways except one: You bought it on the Black Market instead of a legal shop.

You're free to see the Street Index like that, certainly. Judging from general trends in Streed Indices, the game designers did not necessarily see it like that. Sub-zero SIs are prevalent in too many item types for such a definition of the Street Index to make absolute sense. The section defining the Street Index does not say the item you buy from black or grey markets with the Street Index modifier is the exact same thing, unused and original, either.

I see items bought with the Street Index as the type of items you'd get from the grey and black markets IRL. Many items are more or less used and rare items are completely new, legal and illegal copies of varying quality are not uncommon.

QUOTE (Cain)

There's no accounting for taste.

Well, no, but the RL market for small arms would suggest that medium-frame medium-large caliber pistols are not significantly less often copied than large-frame medium-large caliber pistols. There are tons of concealable .45s that look more or less like an M1911, for example, and Taurus has as many Beretta-like pistols with medium frames and small frames as it has large frames in it's catalog. That particular argument, therefore, could not possibly account for more than the 10-20% that I mentioned, if that.

And I haven't got a fricken clue what those cars are you're talking about. Car models have completely different names around here, not to mention that american cars often use different manufacturer names around here.

What I want to see, however, are two cars which are basically the same model but of different sizes -- a Toyota Corolla http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/reviews/generations/toyota.corolla/84.87.toyota.corolla.500.jpg and http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/reviews/generations/toyota.corolla/88.92.toyota.corolla.500.jpg for example -- which are of the exact same price as new, but one is ½ the price of the other when bought used (or from a grey or black market, if you can provide reliable figures). I do not think your example comes even close to that.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 5 2004, 04:19 PM

Perhaps. But the description of what Street Index is, within the game itself as opposed to personal (my own included) interpretations, is that it almost exclusively represents the number of middlemen the item had to go through before reaching your hands. That brand new Ares Predator you bought from your fixer is a brand new Ares Predator. It's not a slightly dented Aries Preditor that's only been fired once; it's a brand new Ares Predator.

But, for some reason, because it had to go through more channels and cross more hands, it's cheaper if you buy it from your fixer than a guy at a gun store.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 5 2004, 04:27 PM

Taking the definition literally, yes you could conclude that. Perhaps the SI section could be cleared up a bit, because I'm pretty sure that was not the designers' intention. Still, it never even occurred to me that a weapon bought "from the street" would be brand new and always of the exact same quality as a legally bought weapon.

Posted by: Cain Jul 5 2004, 08:13 PM

QUOTE

And I haven't got a fricken clue what those cars are you're talking about. Car models have completely different names around here, not to mention that american cars often use different manufacturer names around here.

What I want to see, however, are two cars which are basically the same model but of different sizes -- a Toyota Corolla hatchback and sedan for example -- which are of the exact same price as new, but one is ½ the price of the other when bought used (or from a grey or black market, if you can provide reliable figures). I do not think your example comes even close to that.

And prices will vary significantly by area. Basically, the Kia Sephia and the Ford Aspire are the same car, made by the same manufacturer, under a different name. The Aspire is a hatchback, and the Sephia is a sedan-- for the purposes of which we're examining it, the rest of the differences are cosmetic.

The problem is that I'd view a Browning and Ares Predator as different "models"-- admittedly models with very little difference between them, but different models nontheless. Sort of like the difference between a Ford Focus and Ford Taurus-- one's just bigger than the other.

QUOTE

Except that "Ares Predator" isn't a singular item. Check out the "Developer's Say" in the intro to CC. He lists over 60 "Ares Predator" type guns, with different manufacturers! If you can buy an "Ares Predator" that wasn't made by Ares, by canon, the cheap knock-off factor does come into play.

What's more, it's not "exactly the same". The differences are largely cosmetic, and have no affect on game play, true enough-- but there's a ton of differences between them. I mean, what's the difference between the "Ares Predator" made by Ruger, with walnut grips and a ambidextrous safety, versus the "Ares Predator" made by Ares, in blued steel with plastic grips? Or the one made by Cavalier Arms, with a matte black finish and an extra centimeter of barrel length?

With all these variations possible, why not include the "scuffed-up, cracked grip, with a replacement firing pin installed after the first ten thousand rounds, old but still serviceable" Predator? Game mechanics wise, what's the difference?

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 5 2004, 08:36 PM

Once again: That's a trait of *all* Ares Predators, not just the ones bought with Street Index. The legal one you bought at Hank's Gun Emporium can be the very same Ruger-manufcatured "Ares Predator" with walnut grip and ambidexterous safety that you bought from Frank the Fixer. But because Frank had to go through all kinds of middlemen and get around all kinds of laws, he miracously gives you a 50% reduction in price.

Street Index does not indicate quality. Street Index does not indicate brand name or lack thereof. Street Index does not derive used status. Street Index's primary role is middlemen.

SR3 p. 173. Read it sometime.

All of your arguments are also silly when compared to any item that has a Street Index of 1 or higher. Apparently, according to your theories, that slightly used Walther PB-120 knock-off costs twice as much as a genuine brand-name brand-spanking-new Walther PB-120 does.

Oh, and just as a side note, those custom finishes you mentioned above do increase the cost of the weapon as per the Custom Finish customization option.

Posted by: Cain Jul 5 2004, 08:55 PM

QUOTE

Street Index does not indicate quality. Street Index does not indicate brand name or lack thereof. Street Index does not derive used status. Street Index's primary role is middlemen.

Once again, Street Index *does* sometimes indicate used status. What it doesn't indicate is less-than-new quality. See the difference? What's the difference, game-mechanics wise, between a stress-free used item, and a brand new one?

QUOTE

SR3 p. 173. Read it sometime.

What does Astral Projection have to do with anything?

No wonder why you're confused. You should try reading p 273, BBB, sometime-- that's where the SI rules are. Didn't you wonder what Astral Space had to do with buying things on the sly?

Anyways, if you had read the correct page, you'd see that the first paragraph indicates usage of both shadow and grey markets, and the sentence you refer to includes: "usually" "Tends to" and "if"-- a whole lot of qualifiers.

QUOTE

All of your arguments are also silly when compared to any item that has a Street Index of 1 or higher. Apparently, according to your theories, that slightly used Walther PB-120 knock-off costs twice as much as a genuine brand-name brand-spanking-new Walther PB-120 does.

Not all items have knock-offs. Heck, some items can't be duplicated cheaply. If you go wandering around a flea market, you can find all kinds of stuff-- some of which was even acquired legally. Stuff that's easily duplicated, such as DVD's, can be found for dirt cheap. Stuff that's more difficult to make-- such as big illegal fireworks-- tends to be much more expensive.

QUOTE

Oh, and just as a side note, those custom finishes you mentioned above do increase the cost of the weapon as per the Custom Finish customization option.

Wrong. Custom Finish is for making guns look especially nice, nicer than stock models, or adding a nonstandard finish. All of the finishes I mentioned are perfectly standard, and don't make the gun look any better than normal.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jul 5 2004, 09:09 PM

Smuggling and fencing result in one of two outcomes.
One, the price is lower than the legal purchase price because it may have a questionable history.
Two, the price is higher than the theoretical legal price, but still less costly than going through all the nonsense to be able to purchase it legally.

If the black market wasn't cheaper or showing some other benefit, it wouldn't exist. In many items (SI greater than 1), the benefit has to do with not having a questionable item linked to your SIN or even being able to purchase it without some hard to get paperwork. With some items (SI below 1) the benefit is cost with some easily ignored extra risks involved.

Posted by: OurTeam Jul 5 2004, 09:58 PM

In a free market with multiple sources for a given item (say an "Ares Predator") the price of the item is not dependent upon how many middle men it goes through. It will be sold for whatever the market will bear, which is controlled by supply and demand, plus the results of whatever negotiation happens between the buyer and seller.

How many middle men a particular vendor has to go through will affect his cost, and thus his profit, but doesn't directly affect what the market will bear.

In the negotiations, think about car salesmen in the USA. They spend all day, every day, negotiating a selling price. The average person doesn't stand a chance without help. Even though my Fixer finds me jobs and fences my loot, I keep in the back of my mind the idea that he's just a used car salesman without a business license.

Posted by: The Grifter Jul 6 2004, 12:02 AM

Public Service Announcement:

The Centurion combat axe sucks hardcore. And so does that fraggin oral whip.

Thank You

Posted by: Zazen Jul 6 2004, 04:56 AM

I don't like these interpretations for less-than-one SI's here.

The cheap-knock-off thing is lame. If it's a "cheap" knock off, then what makes it cheap? It costs the same as a real Predator, so it can't be cheap in terms of price. If "cheap" means it's not well constructed, then that's a blatant misnomer. It works exactly the same, so in fact it is well constructed.

The thing about Ares Predators not all actually being Ares Predators is also a major stretch. Is it reasonable for you to ask a contact for an Ares Predator and recieve another pistol entirely? If for some reason it were, why does one always recieve a pistol with stats identical to that of the Predator? (i.e. you ask for a Predator-like gun and recieve a Cavalier Prey-eater. Next month you ask for a Predator-like gun and recieve a Browning Carnivore. Why, if such a wide range of pistols is acceptable, do you never recieve a Colt Manhunter?)

That makes for a pretty bizarre situation, regardless of whether it is canon. ( Which I don't think it is! As I read the "Developers Say" bit about the 60-to-one ratio, I notice that he is not saying that the listed Ares Predator actually represents 60 other pistols. What he is saying is that it is unreasonable to list 60 pistols in a Shadowrun rulebook to represent guns that are very similar.)

I don't see why these interpretations are necessary, either. Why can't they simply be prolific?

Posted by: Neon Tiger Jul 6 2004, 06:01 AM

The thing why Predator has S.I. < 1, is because there is 2 "updated versions" of it, namely the Predator II and III. It's the same as with mobile phones nowadays, whenever Nokia(or insert the manufacturer of choice) releases a new model, all those trendy, rich, young people go into a frenzy about getting a new phone for themselves.

Hell, I'll even tell you a real life example. I recently bought a Nokia N-Gage for 108,90 €. When the N-Gage hit the markets, it's price was around 300 €. Why did it's price drop so much? Because the N-Gage QD is just around the corner, and the retailers want to get rid of their old stock, that's why.

And also, I have studied some economics and I can say that S.I. and availability are both a function of supply and demand. Look at the item lists, and most easily gotten stuff has S.I. of 1. Now look at some harder to get stuff, like heavy weaponry and such, their S.I. is at least 2, if not even more.

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 6 2004, 06:25 AM

There are really two separate issues being debated here. Doc did explicitly say he didn't understand why street index ever drops below 1, which, of course, has been gone into throughout this thread, starting the third post in the thread.

He explicitly questioned how street index can be low while availability fails to reflect market saturation, and the about only answer here is that availability is undeniably fucked up throughout the game and in few places as fucked up as it is with weapons (note, there are exceptions where weird availabilitis are rationalized through shadowtalk or obscure reasonings, but that's fairly rare). But that's just how it is with the canon weapons numbers (for a good time, turn to the stats for a club and take a look at availability and legality), and the only sensible thing to do is revise it for your game.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 6 2004, 06:39 AM

QUOTE (Arethusa)

He explicitly questioned how street index can be low while availability fails to reflect market saturation, and the about only answer here is that availability is undeniably fucked up

The proper answer is that the availability does not fail to reflect market saturation. It simply fails, as it should, to reflect only market saturation.

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 6 2004, 07:35 AM

Given that, to my knowledge, there are no other factors that are not, for all practical purposes, more or less equal to other quite similar heavy pistols, market saturation'd be the main thing in question, here.

Posted by: Cain Jul 6 2004, 08:02 AM

QUOTE

The thing about Ares Predators not all actually being Ares Predators is also a major stretch. Is it reasonable for you to ask a contact for an Ares Predator and recieve another pistol entirely? If for some reason it were, why does one always recieve a pistol with stats identical to that of the Predator?

Yes, and because there's only so many configurations on the market.

When most people go gun shopping, they go for a gun to fill a role. They might walk in with a few brand names and ideas, but they'll generally settle for any gun that will fit the bill. If I need a duck-hunting shotgun, I might have my heart set on that Remington, but I'll probably settle for the SKS.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 6 2004, 08:27 AM

So I guess if someone wanted to buy a genuine Ares Predator (as opposed to all the similar models and knockoffs and so forth) you'd be forced to increase the Street Index?

Posted by: Zazen Jul 6 2004, 08:33 AM

QUOTE (Arethusa)

Can you clarify this? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 6 2004, 01:41 PM

QUOTE (Cain)

When most people go gun shopping, they go for a gun to fill a role. They might walk in with a few brand names and ideas, but they'll generally settle for any gun that will fit the bill. If I need a duck-hunting shotgun, I might have my heart set on that Remington, but I'll probably settle for the SKS.

Er, I'm guessing that wasn't intentional, but the SKS is a light rifle. Probably worth clarifying.

QUOTE (Zazen)

Can you clarify this? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

Basically, if you have two weapons that are largely identical— save for a point of concealability or an extra round or whatever— and one has dramatically lower street index and nothing else, the rationale provided being that it's quite a bit more common, it makes no sense for them to be equally difficult to acquire. I think that's what Doc's second point was. Hope that's clearer.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 6 2004, 01:46 PM

A large supply in relation to demand doesn't necessarily make something easy to aquire. There's a certain base difficulty in aquiring any illegal item.

When you get right down to it, the whole concept of etiquette being used as the sole factor in determining whether or not you can get something is a little silly. Somehow you being extra nice means that your fixer happens to have a Barret laying around.

Posted by: Solstice Jul 6 2004, 03:54 PM

QUOTE (Arethusa)

A street index less than 1 indicates market saturation. I can buy a Glock for 700. I can head to a nearby town, talk to some people, and get one plus a few mags for maybe 150. That's street index.

Uh....sorry to butt in here but I deal guns on a regular basis and there is no way in hell you could get a Glock anything for $150. Even if there is alot of Glocks floating around they still never fall below a certain value...because they have value that doesn't change...like a tool. I could do that with a Smith or a Taurus or something like that.

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 6 2004, 04:29 PM

Somehow, I really don't get the impression you deal in the type of guns I was talking about.

Posted by: Cain Jul 6 2004, 04:37 PM

QUOTE

So I guess if someone wanted to buy a genuine Ares Predator (as opposed to all the similar models and knockoffs and so forth) you'd be forced to increase the Street Index?

Well, if I wanted an Ares Predator specifically, for a collection or something, I'd be forced to buy it new. You never know what's on the used market at any given point. I might be able to find all kinds of good used pistols in the range that I want, but not that specific one. Kinda like the difference between saying: "I want a sportscar" and "I want a 88 Camaro, cherry-red."

QUOTE

I don't know guns, but I do know that's how it works for used cars. Small cosmetic or minor functional differences-- like leather seats-- can make for a huge difference in cost, even if they're equally easy to obtain.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 6 2004, 10:50 PM

QUOTE (TinkerGnome)

When you get right down to it, the whole concept of etiquette being used as the sole factor in determining whether or not you can get something is a little silly. Somehow you being extra nice means that your fixer happens to have a Barret laying around.

If this were true, there wouldn't be a Time portion of Availability. Being extra nice motivates your fixer to actually go out and obtain it for you.

~J

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 6 2004, 11:20 PM

Yes, but at the same time, throwing wads of extra cash his way should have a better effect. I know it does, but somehow it also makes it take longer... If you could up the SI to lower the availability (without lengthening the time) or lower the time it'd make more sense.

Posted by: Solstice Jul 7 2004, 12:41 AM

QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jul 6 2004, 11:29 AM)

Somehow, I really don't get the impression you deal in the type of guns I was talking about.

If what your saying is true (which it isn't) you need to hook me up cause I could make some serious cash over here.

I'll revise somewhat...there is no way you could get a Glock for anywhere near $150 unless it was a) worn out (not likely) b) a crackhead needs money c) it was a murder weapon and you'll never be able to do anything with it except stuff it in your sock drawer.

Used they go for ~$350-$360 so your saying you can get one for less than half used price on the "street"....nah I don't think so. I buy guns on the "street" all the time, and while there is good deals to be made it's nothing like your making it sound. Sometimes you'll get the odd person that knows nothing about nothing and will let a gun go real cheap but it's not that common. I've come pretty close at a few yard sales. For example I got two guns for $400 then turned them around for $400 each.

In other words it's not like you walk down to the corner and get a Glock for $150. Nice try with the analogy but it's not happening.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 7 2004, 01:22 AM

QUOTE (Cain)

Well, if I wanted an Ares Predator specifically, for a collection or something, I'd be forced to buy it new.

Why? You might have a sentimental attachment to them. You might not know enough about pistols to realize that those highly similar models will work just as well in your Predator-specialized hands. Or maybe everyone in your gang has the same gun and you need to match theirs. Or maybe you're an underground simstar who gets a few bucks from an Ares contact under the table when preds are featured in your chips. Any number of wild and zany reasons are possible.

So do you raise street index when someone wants an Ares Predator that is actually an "Ares Predator"?

QUOTE (Arethusa)

Tinkergnome hit it on the head. There is some bare-minimum difficulty to buying a heavy pistol on the streets. For example, I can buy regular ol' weed pretty cheap or I can buy "dro" or "haze", both rarer and more potent varieties. It all comes from the same people, it's all just as easy to get, but dro and haze are in shorter supply and cost more.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 7 2004, 01:45 AM

On one hand, that would be a reflection of their actual costs as well, apparently due to quality and thus rarity. If legal, those differences in costs would be similar. On the other hand, if they're just as readily availble then they're not in shorter supply by definition. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Posted by: Cain Jul 7 2004, 03:34 AM

QUOTE

So do you raise street index when someone wants an Ares Predator that is actually an "Ares Predator"?

They'd just be forced to buy it new.

Let's say that you want to buy a Chevy Corvette. Year doesn't matter, but you really want a Corvette, and won't settle for anything else. Well, you start looking in the classifeds and, for some odd reason, you just can't find one. You can find lots and lots of functionally identical sports cars, but not the Corvette.

What do you do? Well, if you *really* want it, the only recourse you have is to go to a Chevy dealership. They might not have one used, but they sure as hell will have a new one.

The rules assume that brand doesn't matter-- only the game functionality. As such, there's no difference between a brand-new and quality-used item.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 7 2004, 04:41 AM

That's your take. It is not what the rules say or even imply. As previously mentioned, the rules assume it deals more with how hard it is to get it on the streets and how many middlemen it has to go through to get there. It has nothing to do with quality, namebrands, used status, or any of the other things you keep trying to say it does.

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 7 2004, 05:03 AM

QUOTE (Solstice)

QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jul 6 2004, 11:29 AM)

Somehow, I really don't get the impression you deal in the type of guns I was talking about.

Well, there is money to be made in that market, if that's the kind of life you want. I certainly wouldn't recommend it.

And I don't think you're talking about the 'street' I am. This has nothing to do with yard sales or gun shows. The people buying a gun for $150 probably haven't ever been to either.

I never said once could walk down to your local street corner and just pick something up, but if you know the right people who know the right people, which, from what you're saying, is absolutely not what you're talking about, you can get very low prices for firearms. Keep in mind, however, that these are not people with whom any mainstream firearms enthusiast would ever sensibly want to deal with it. A, b, and c are all viable possibilities for your new mystery weapon, and who knows where else it's been. You sure don't, and that's the price you pay. Welcome to the life.

It was not a "nice try." It's a market I get the impression you are wholly unfamiliar with, and perhaps you could lay off the ignorant superiority.

Posted by: Cain Jul 7 2004, 05:40 AM

QUOTE

That's your take. It is not what the rules say or even imply. As previously mentioned, the rules assume it deals more with how hard it is to get it on the streets and how many middlemen it has to go through to get there. It has nothing to do with quality, namebrands, used status, or any of the other things you keep trying to say it does.

Actually, the rules are quite explicit about how the Ares Predator, in particular, represents over 60 guns in a single catalog.

Besides which, I still can't find the rules you mentioned on p 173. If you'd keep reading your book, you'll eventually get the the Street Index section-- it's only ahundred more pages, so it shouldn't take you more than a month or so, if you start now and read straight through.

At any event, let's look at the sentence in question:

QUOTE

Because obtaining something illegally usually involves the item going through numerous middlemen... the price of an item tends to rise dramatically, especially if it is a hot commodity.

See all those qualifers? Therefore, if something doesn't have to go through a lot of middlemen, the price will tend to go down, yes?

Anyway, there's ample evidence in the opening to CC that items all represent new-equivalent quality, and not necessarily "still-in-the-wrapper" new. In fact, unless you're degrading items for each and every second they're away from the factory, you're treating all items as "like-new quality". (And I'd love to see where you're finding degradation rules from.)

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 7 2004, 06:40 AM

QUOTE (Cain)

Actually, the rules are quite explicit about how the Ares Predator, in particular, represents over 60 guns in a single catalog.

Which has nothing to do with the Street Index whatsoever anymore than buying a Mercury Comet instead of a Ford Americar does.

QUOTE (Cain)

Besides which, I still can't find the rules you mentioned on p 173. If you'd keep reading your book, you'll eventually get the the Street Index section-- it's only ahundred more pages, so it shouldn't take you more than a month or so, if you start now and read straight through. nyahnyah.gif At any event, let's look at the sentence in question:

You know, mocking a minor typo once is pretty sad. Doing it twice, let alone insulting a person because of it, is simply pathetic. Grow up. Until you do, please don't bother replying to my posts, or at least directing them towards me.

Posted by: Cain Jul 7 2004, 07:39 AM

QUOTE

Aww, did I get under your skin? Mr Pot, calling Mr. Kettle! Considering that you're famed for abrasiveness, I take it as a positive that I've gotten to you.

At any event, you evaded my questions. Do you apply degradation for every single time a gun is fired? Every second it's away from the factory? And if so, where are you getting your rules from?

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 7 2004, 09:15 AM

No, you didn't. And while I may attack what a person says, I'm not the pathetic loser who goes around saying "Duhhhhh! You typed a 1 instead of a 2! You're stoopit! Duh huh huh! It's time t'go beat off now! Wooo!!"

Regardless, the point you can't seem to get into your head is that there's no difference between a legal purchase and a black market purhcase except the cost. None. Zip. Zilch. Nadda. You can buy your precious used Ares Predator knock-off pistol at a pawn shop through legal channels and you can buy a brand-spanking-new never-been-fired straight-from-the-factory brand-name Ares Predator from your fixer, and the latter one is *still* half the price. And you know why? Because that's the only difference between the two. One you bought legally, one you bought illegally. In all other ways they're identical.

Street Index does not determine quality. Street Index does not determine brand name. Street Index does not determine Availability. Street Index does not do any of the things you keep attributing to it, and the rules certainly do not say they do despite your completely unfounded claims to the contrary. The only reference the rules make to Street Index is that it's a measure of the difficulties inherent to buying it on the black market, with numerous middlemen being the typical cause.

And it's because of that that I find it hard to believe that many Street Indexes would be below 1. I can't imagine how buying a brand-new never-been-used brand-name top-of-the-line gun on the streets, getting around the paperwork, and having the weapon pass through so many different hands before it hits yours would make it 50% cheaper than buying the exact same one from a straight-from-the-factory-to-our-shelves gun store when you have all the proper paperwork and permits available.

And again, because you seem to have trouble with this concept, Street Index does not determine if a weapon is used, old, or a cheap knock-off. No matter how many times you want to say the contrary, it simply isn't. You may want to rationalize it to yourself that way, but that doesn't change a single thing about it.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 7 2004, 09:16 AM

Uh oh! There's at least one typo in that last post. Quick, get the Vaseline out and start typing your response, Cain!

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 7 2004, 11:45 AM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

[T]there's no difference between a legal purchase and a black market purhcase except the cost. None. Zip. Zilch. Nadda. You can buy your precious used Ares Predator knock-off pistol at a pawn shop through legal channels and you can buy a brand-spanking-new never-been-fired straight-from-the-factory brand-name Ares Predator from your fixer, and the latter one is *still* half the price. And you know why? Because that's the only difference between the two. One you bought legally, one you bought illegally. In all other ways they're identical.

If your character happens to have Connected: firearms, puts a few thousand, hell, let's be ridiculous and say that one billion rounds have been fired from this gun, and then goes and sells it to their contact, what will they get? Price, adjusted by street index, less the fixer's cut. No less.

I fail to see how you can make this statement based on that.

~J

Posted by: Pinel Jul 7 2004, 11:52 AM

Let's see if I can try to reconcile a few views without touching the personal animosities. Apologies for being the intrusive, smartass newbie with a long post - I've been out of my home country and out of SR for a couple of years, but coming back to both next month. And since I happen to be a diplomat working in international trade and economics, and it's a slow afternoon...

First off - Misfit Toy, I don't think anybody is disputing that the rules on SI (and Availability, for that matter) are at best incomplete. The views expressed here can only be personal interpretations aimed at rationalizing a weakness in the books, unless one of us happens to be sleeping with one of the game designers

So, if we don't want to review gear stats throughout the source books, how do we explain the wide variations in SI (and availability) between near-similar items ? We can pick one or more reasons:

1) Product life cycle: While having the Predator represent a wide number of similar weapons can lower Availability (through the sheer volume of similar items up for sale), it doesn't explain SI very well. What does affect SI is the product's life cycle (cf. the Predator 2 and 3 example). In many industries, old product versions are not offered at a lower price to maximize the sales of the "new and improved" item -this is especially true when newer versions offer only minimal improvements. So that Predator 1 might only be cheaper through your fixer because while everyone (legit and not) is buying up version 2, Ares isn't lowering the version 1 price to avoid "sales cannibalization". Indeed, Ares might see the grey and black markets as the most profitable way of clearing out version 1 without hurting version 2 sales.

2) Supply and Demand: Ironically, this produces two contradictory effects which can cancel each other out (but not always). First, a very popular product will not tend to have a SI below 1, by virtue of limited stocks (cf. the Barrett rifle mentioned earlier). But that tends to be an early phenomenon. The second effect occurs afterwards: copycat items start arriving, usually at a lower price. This tends to lower the price of the original item - sometimes a lot, sometimes not much, depending on factors like proprietary technology and the quality / reputation of the original. But this factor has a lesser effect on SI as the others.

3) Shadow Production: A very popular but well-controlled item might stimulate the development of illegal production. This is not an automatic consequence of point 2 above, BTW, since some products are licensed legally but are very hard to copy, while other products are the opposite. The Ares Predator you get from your fixer might be a re-engineered Phillipino copy, without the legal process or physical tracing measures incorporated by Ares and other "public" manufacturers. That would give it both the same game stats as the "official " Predator, and a reduced price to boot, but only on the black market since it comes from some hidden jungle factory and the sales revenue goes straight to the Huk Rebels' war chest (litterally). The Browning would not enjoy a similar low SI because it may not be the object of similar production (maybe the design isn't as easy to re-develop as the Predator's ?).

4) Shadow trends & popularity: It makes sense that legitimate buyers don't have the same shopping habits than black market customers. As was mentioned earlier for the laser axe, a SI might be below 1 because runners don't trust a particular item or the excessive number of low-quality versions flooding the black market: that Predator is so popular that runners aren't sure of what they're going to get, and only cheap copies are available on the street as opposed to the certainty of getting a brand-name item at the local gun store.

These are just a few of the many reasons why similar items might have not only a different SI, but one that is below 1. I could elaborate until everyone's computer screen bled, but I don't want to be barred from this forum on my very first post !

Posted by: Baatorian Jul 7 2004, 12:18 PM

You know, in regards to street index, you can look upon the fact that things can be cheaper aboard.

I mean, I can get a 50 gram packet of golden virginia from my local shop for £9.50 (roughly), that's the "legal" price. However, if I get someone to bring me the same 50 gram packet from overseas, the price works out to about £3.50 a packet.

Now, it's brand new, packaged, exactly the same, everything is the same, yet it's a HELL of a lot cheaper (thank God).

In regards to the laser axe.. uhm... perhaps they THOUGHT they'd sell really good, so the happy-happy workers in Korea or something made a serious boat load of them, then everyone realised they were actually crap and they couldn't shift the things, so they're selling them cheaper to "other" sources, who then smuggle them into Seattle and sell them off on the streets for a little profit. Dunno, weird street index for that one.

- Baatorian

Posted by: John Campbell Jul 7 2004, 05:40 PM

The laser goofyass axe's numbers make perfect sense. They have nothing to do with all of the axes on the street actually being cheap knockoffs of the expensive Ares ones that you have to buy legally in the store (and I have no idea where you came up with that idea, or what makes you think it's a rational explanation), and not much to do with the number of middlemen the weapon went through (while that is a factor, it's not the only one, and the referenced rules passage does not, in fact, say that it is... and uses too many "usually"s and "tends" to support a hardline interpretation of even what it does say). It's just straightforward supply and demand.

They're expensive to buy legally, because they're complex and technically advanced devices that're expensive to manufacture, and because they're illegal to possess normally (no permits, even), so there's undoubtedly lots of red tape that has to be expensively cut through to sell them legally, and Ares wants to recover those expenses and make at least a small profit selling them.

The Availability is moderately high, because there aren't many of them floating around out there, because they suck and no one buys them, which keeps both the number manufactured in the first place and the number of those that find their way onto the street low, so it's difficult to find someone who has one to sell at all.

But the SI is low, because they suck and no one wants to buy them, so if you do find a shadow dealer who has one, he's probably going to be quite willing to let it go cheap just to get rid of it, because he doesn't know when he'll find someone else who's willing to buy it for any price. He doesn't have to worry about recovering manufacturing and similar costs, because he probably didn't buy it for full legal price to begin with... it may have been smuggled in and bypassed the bureaucracy, or some Ares employee who doesn't care if Ares makes a profit on it as long as he gets his personal palm greased might have knocked it off the back of a truck, or it might have been stolen, or looted from someone who got themselves dead trying to fight with the ridiculous thing, or whatever. In any case, his investment in it is lower than a legal supplier's, so he can charge less and still be making a profit... and will, because if he charges too much, he won't be making a profit because he won't be making a sale.

Posted by: Nikoli Jul 7 2004, 06:41 PM

Isn't street index a percent of markup?
Item-x is 100:nuyen: and has an SI of 1 would cost 100 at char-gen but 200 (before negotiation) afterwards.

that equation would be price*(SI+1)=Cost before negotiation

therefore an SI of .5 at a base price of 100 would cost 150 after SI markup

Posted by: Pinel Jul 7 2004, 07:08 PM

Nope, SI is a straight multiplier to the base item cost. Items with a SI of 1.0 cost the same on the street as they do in the stores.

Posted by: Nikoli Jul 7 2004, 08:01 PM

That has to be the silliest thing I ever heard.

Posted by: Cain Jul 7 2004, 08:58 PM

QUOTE ("Misfit Toy")

And while I may attack what a person says, I'm proud to be the pathetic loser who goes around saying "Duhhhhh! You typed a 1 instead of a 2! You're stoopit! Duh huh huh! It's time t'go beat off now! Wooo!!"

Fixed your typo for you.

QUOTE

Regardless, the point you can't seem to get into your head is that there's no difference between a legal purchase and a black market purhcase except the cost. None. Zip. Zilch. Nadda. You can buy your precious used Ares Predator knock-off pistol at a pawn shop through legal channels and you can buy a brand-spanking-new never-been-fired straight-from-the-factory brand-name Ares Predator from your fixer, and the latter one is *still* half the price. And you know why? Because that's the only difference between the two. One you bought legally, one you bought illegally. In all other ways they're identical.

Stat-wise, they're identical. In terms of quality and use, they're identical. However, in generalized cosmetic terms, they can be wildly different. Do you apply a modifier based on one being the 2058 model, and one being the 2059?

Or, let's look at cars. What is the difference, stat-wise, between a Ford Americar, Honda Accord, and Chrysler-Nissan Sentra 11?

Posted by: Solstice Jul 8 2004, 12:15 AM

QUOTE (Arethusa)

No I think I am familiar with it. In fact I've dealt on that side of the street more than a few times. That is why I say your full of it. Firearms have a value regardless of who is buying or selling. Now certain things like the need to get rid of a stolen gun can cause a person to sell for less but not that much less. That is just asinine.

They know they can get $xxx for it so why sell if for less than half price? You can be a convicted serial killer and still go buy a gun from a private person so there is no motivation for people to sell that cheap. It's not like having the gun is harming them so there is no reason to sell for less than half price. Your logic is flawed man. I don't believe you sorry.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 8 2004, 12:23 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 7 2004, 02:58 PM)

There's nothing different about them because there's nothing different about them. No matter WHO or WHERE or HOW you buy them. Whether you buy them legally or by them on the streets they're exactly the same. If one is used when you buy it legally, it's still used when you buy it on the streets. If it's a cheap knock-off when you buy it legally, it's still a cheap knock-off when you buy it on the streets. If it's brand new when you buy it legally, it's still brand new when you buy it on the streets. If it's a brand name when you buy it legally, its still a brand name when you buy it on the streets.

Why? Because Street Index has no bearing on that whatsoever. The one and only difference is the cost. EVERYTHING else is 100% identical. There is no difference in stats, quality, brand-name, or previous ownership.

If you want to use vehicles as an example, buying a Toyota Elite or any of the alternate variations legally costs 66,400 nuyen. Buying that exact same vehicle on the streets costs you 132,800 nuyen. That does not denote used quality. That does not denote a cheap knock-off. That denotes NOTHING of what you keep saying it alledgedly does. The only difference is the price.

Now taking that same scenario to the next step just to prove it further, buying a Toyota Elite as a Used Vehicle (0.40 Mark-Up factor) would only cost you 26,560 nuyen if you bought it legally. If you bought it on the street... shock shock... it still costs twice as much; 53,120 nuyen. Why? Because Street Index has no bearing whatsoever on previous ownership or anything else. Buying the exact same vehicle on the streets will always cost twice as much. Just like buying the exact same Ares Predator will always cost half as much on the streets.

You could go to a gunstore and buy an Ares Predator and then walk right across the street and sell it to a bum. And thanks to the glory of Street Index, you're now selling it at half its value even though you never even took it out of the box. Likewise, if you went to a lot and bought a Toyota Elite then sold it to the same bum across the street, you'd be able to afford two Toyota Elites 'cause the Street Index was 2.

Notice the trend there? They were exactly the same product. The only changes were 1) the cost and 2) the number of middlemen involved.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 8 2004, 12:39 AM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

This smells like a personal house interpretation to me. Ahh yes... the reek of pretending your opinion is Canon. Please do provide a quote from a rulebook that supports the your repeated claims as to a lack of any difference whatsoever between street-bought and store-bought goods.

I'll help you out: there isnt one. Cosmetic/age/whatever differences are never directly addressed by the street index rules. You interpret this to mean that there *are* no differences, others interpret this to mean that those differences arent enough to warrant stat changes.

While some interpretations are lamer than others (I dont really like the cheap knock-off theory either), theyre all just that - interpretations. The difference between some of the interpretations presented and yours is that other people are trying to interpret the rules such that they make sense, whereas you are trying to bend the rules around your interpretation and finding (surprise!) that it doesnt work.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 8 2004, 12:46 AM

Read the rules for Street Index. They make it clear that the only difference is the cost, and then list the usual reason for that (ie, middlemen). It's all the other things brought up in this thread that's the "personal house interpretation." By canon, there is no difference whatsoever between them. If you buy an item legally and then turn around and sell it on the streets, whoever buys it gets stuck with the Street Index even though there has been no change whatsoever in the product.

Quality, brand-name, etc. has no bearing on that. Nothing in canon says otherwise that I'm aware of. You can legally buy an Ares Predator that's "used" or a "cheap knock-off" from a pawn shop or buy a brand-new brand-name Ares Predator from a respectable store, and the price would be identical. Just like the price would be identical if you bought an Ares Predator on the streets from the Crime Mall or bribed some worker at an Ares factory to turn his head while you swiped one, and the price would still have the same cost... just at a 0.5 mark-up of the legal price because you bought it illegally instead.

Because that's... the... only... difference.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jul 8 2004, 02:02 AM

QUOTE

Because obtaining something illegally usually involves the item going through numerous middlemen (from thieves to their fences to black marketeers to fixers to the runners), the price of an item tends to rise dramatically, especially if it is a hot commodity.

This is the only line explaining causes for street index at all. It does not have any solid "always" variety terms. That means it accounts for the possibility of exceptions while not explaining the exceptions. Low SI is the exception and the reasons given in various opinion posts do not contradict what is stated in the relevant text (although some don't make any sense).

Based on the "Fencing the Loot" section, the SI of an Ares Predator is exactly the most that a runner can expect from fencing such a gun. 50% of the retail cost. There are no rules for selling something to an interested buyer or buying directly from an interested seller, just buying and selling through intermediaries. Keep that in mind and quit with the analogies that do not apply to the actual rules in the books. Anything beyond the rules is GM whim, so no one here can be "right" or "wrong" on those parts (except claiming that it is a rule).

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 8 2004, 02:25 AM

The point you guys keep missing is that, at no time, is the quality of the item altered by buying it on the streets vs. buying it legally. There is nothing in the rules that says or even suggests that. Why you keep harping on me for actually pointing to the only relevant rules on the subject while simultaneously dismissing that simple fact is beyond me.

Posted by: Person 404 Jul 8 2004, 02:28 AM

Perhaps because with a few exceptions (cyberware, vehicles apparently), there are no rules for gear quality in canon?

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 8 2004, 02:31 AM

Which is my point.

There are no differences in quality, because it doesn't matter. And Street Index has no bearing on that. Because it is a non-issue. You get the same quality (however you want to describe it) whether you buy it legally or illegally. Buying a used knock-off from a legal source vs. a street resource is still modified by the exact same Street Index as buying a brand new brand name item from a legal source vs. a street resource.

Buying something on the streets does not make it used, cheap, or a knock-off. You might describe it that way for fun, but that's all it is. It's not what Street Index represents. You can describe that brand-new gun you just bought as being a used, cheap, knock-off... but that doesn't mean you get a discount on it.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jul 8 2004, 02:37 AM

If you were arguing only against the quality argument, then my post was poorly timed. I have difficulty finding reason in that argument as well, but I am curious if its backers can make a more convincing point.

Posted by: Person 404 Jul 8 2004, 02:52 AM

Not that I'm a huge fan of this argument, but should point out that all the prices in canon (sans SI) are for new, name-brand, retail items. You can say that the SI issue applies equally to knock-off used crap bought legally and good stuff bought legally equally, but I don't know of any canon sources for buying said knock-off used crap at retail (i.e. SI=1) prices.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 8 2004, 03:07 AM

You know what? Nevermind.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 8 2004, 03:18 AM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

As I said before, there also isn't a difference in quality for (most) gear that you've used compared to stuff you haven't. Get a HVAR, modify it for belt feed, and rig it up with a belt the size of the earth. By the last bullet, the performance will be the same as the first. Does this mean that Shadowrun should abandon reason even more and price them the same?

~J

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 8 2004, 03:36 AM

What exactly is your argument?

That Street Index indicates quality? It doesn't. Unless you're saying that a sports car you buy from a corrupt car salesman is twice the quality of the exact same sports car (and I do mean the exact same one, not one like it) you buy from the exact same salesman's lot but instead go through all the paperwork.

That Street Index indicates that you're buying a cheap knock-off? It doesn't. Unless you're telling me the only place you can get an Aries Preditor is on the streets without a license or permit.

So what's the argument here? By the rules (and I noticed upon looking back up that Cain conveniently changed his post where he said the rules said that Street Index was an indication of quality and brand name), the only thing Street Index changes about an item is its cost. There is no change in quality, brand name, color, tint, or anything else. You can get crappy equipment from a legal source and Grade A equipment from a less-than-legal source. Street Index is not an indicator of those things; GM fiat is.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 8 2004, 06:14 AM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

What exactly is your argument?

That Street Index indicates quality? It doesn't.

I haven't been around for a few days, so I guess I'm a little behind in the discussion. I hope I can catch up quickly.

I quite agree that SI should not indicate quality. You've also said that it does not indicate the available supply. So now I'm curious, what does SI represent?

Posted by: Cain Jul 8 2004, 07:00 AM

QUOTE

Quality, brand-name, etc. has no bearing on that. Nothing in canon says otherwise that I'm aware of. You can legally buy an Ares Predator that's "used" or a "cheap knock-off" from a pawn shop or buy a brand-new brand-name Ares Predator from a respectable store, and the price would be identical. Just like the price would be identical if you bought an Ares Predator on the streets from the Crime Mall or bribed some worker at an Ares factory to turn his head while you swiped one, and the price would still have the same cost... just at a 0.5 mark-up of the legal price because you bought it illegally instead.

About time. You finally started making sense. Which, incidentally, is what I've been saying all along.

QUOTE

The point you guys keep missing is that, at no time, is the quality of the item altered by buying it on the streets vs. buying it legally.

Exactly! Now you have it!

If a gun/car/other item is statistically identical to item X, then it functions identically like item X, and retails for as much. But on the street, sometimes that means the prices can go down. You with me so far?

So, Street Index is supposedly a reflection of how readily a given item filters into the shadow markets. It's distinct from availiability, which describes how common an item is. Thus, the Predator and its ilk must "fall between the cracks" much more often than other guns.

This could be due to a number of reasons. Shadowrunners and wannabes get the gun, use it once, and toss it to avoid incrimination. Ares (or another manufacturer) has a regular deal with various people to trade guns for biz. (Given that Ares owns Weapons World, this is a very likely outcome.)

QUOTE

Buying something on the streets does not make it used, cheap, or a knock-off.

Nor does it mean it's still in the original packaging. As you pointed out, SI does not indicate quality. In fact, it's assumed that all items are in like-new condition, regardless of actual age/mileage. But what it *does* mean is that the item has probably changed hands a few times, which could mean it's seen more use, and therefore been devalued.

Posted by: Cain Jul 8 2004, 07:10 AM

BTW:

QUOTE

If you buy an item legally and then turn around and sell it on the streets, whoever buys it gets stuck with the Street Index even though there has been no change whatsoever in the product.

Here's where you're completely wrong. The SI rules only apply when *purchasing* things on the shadow or grey markets. When you're selling things onto the shadow or grey markets, the "Fencing the Loot" rules take effect. That's where your "middleman" comes into play.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 8 2004, 07:17 AM

That's some pretty confusing stuff right there.

QUOTE

So, Street Index is supposedly a reflection of how readily a given item filters into the shadow markets. It's distinct from availiability, which describes how common an item is. Thus, the Predator and its ilk must "fall between the cracks" much more often than other guns.

If it enters the black market more easily than other guns, doesn't that mean that it is (among illegal weapons dealers) more common?

QUOTE

As you pointed out, SI does not indicate quality. In fact, it's assumed that all items are in like-new condition, regardless of actual age/mileage. But what it *does* mean is that the item has probably changed hands a few times, which could mean it's seen more use, and therefore been devalued.

Quite confusing! Apparently the item has been devalued, but the devaluation is not based on the quality or condition of the item! So the item is cheaper because it has seen more use, despite there being no evidence of that use on the like-new condition item?

Posted by: Cain Jul 8 2004, 08:58 AM

QUOTE

If it enters the black market more easily than other guns, doesn't that mean that it is (among illegal weapons dealers) more common?

More common != more availiable.

For example, everyone might have a Browning Max-power or two in stock, so you can find thm readily enough. However, they've got tons of Predators and predator knockoffs, so the price on those tends to drop.

The availiability rules only apply for finding one item. If your supplier has dozens, it'll affect price, but not availiability. Thus, the SI reduction.

QUOTE

Apparently the item has been devalued, but the devaluation is not based on the quality or condition of the item! So the item is cheaper because it has seen more use, despite there being no evidence of that use on the like-new condition item?

Do you collect Magic cards? What's worth more, a lotus in perfect mint condition, completely unused; or one that's been played with extensively? And will that wear make a difference in tournament play?

Posted by: Birdy Jul 8 2004, 10:47 AM

Did you take into account:

- End user prices are inflated compared to what you pay "at factory" (IRL I buy a suit for 100€ at a high-quality clothing plant. That same suit then gets a label sewn in and ends in an expensive shop for 450€)

- Thieves don't sell their stuff for end-user prices. Even more so if they steal in bulk

- Dealers lack a good many expenses that regular shops have (taxes, health care, shop rent, guarantee/insurance)

Birdy

Posted by: Zazen Jul 8 2004, 01:36 PM

QUOTE (Cain)

QUOTE

If it enters the black market more easily than other guns, doesn't that mean that it is (among illegal weapons dealers) more common?

More common != more availiable.

But you just said in your last post:

QUOTE

It's distinct from availiability, which describes how common an item is

Do you think that availability describes the commonality of an item or not?

QUOTE (Cain)

Do you collect Magic cards? What's worth more, a lotus in perfect mint condition, completely unused; or one that's been played with extensively?

You have said that items are assumed to be in like-new condition, so I'd say there's little difference between the extensively used and new card, because the like-new card mysteriously shows no evidence of its extensive use. It is like-new, after all!

Posted by: Lindt Jul 8 2004, 02:13 PM

Children... settle down. Someone way back on the first page said that the Pred. isnt the Ak-47 of handguns. I completly disagree. Its far and away the AK-47 of heavy pistols. Its the Colt 1911 of today, everyone who has a handgun has one of those. Having a street index of .5 shows that. "Oh, Mr Man, why is it cheeper to by it from a dealer then Ares Arms 'World O Guns'?" Because every dead fool and their pet poodle has one. If you walked into a small gun shop, and asked to buy 3 Colt model 1911s, odds are you would still have a choice of finishes, grips, and acc. mounts. Hell they just want to get rid of them. If you buy it used, its going to be cheeper, but Ares 'World O' Guns' dosent sell used guns, now do they. Not when they can get you to buy a new one at 2x the price. But they will toss in a 3 year money back gurantee, a walnut box, and a cleaning kit, along with the owners manual. Remember however, that it might be tough to get (fictional example, an AK-2058), it still might be cheep. "But Mr. Man, how does THAT work?" Lets say your local grey market pawn shop has 2 sitting in the back, that because its aginst the law to sell assult weapons with out the right permits, he dosent advertise. But you walk in looking for something that has a little extra bang. You spend 5 min haggeling over the cost of a Enfield .12 guage (and make your search check aginst its avil of 8, because its new) the broker mentions he might have something better, and since they are only taking up space, he could let it for for say, 75% of the new ones at 'Kalinichoffs Gun O Rama'.
That being said, that stupid axe is close to the same. Mabey because it dosent have any compitition?

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 8 2004, 03:58 PM

That's the thing though. Every time you guys mention a flooded market, that would be reflected in Availability -- and by the rules, Availability works with both legal and illegal purchases and it is a direct reflection of how easy it is to get one.

If everyone and their uncle had an Ares Predator, the Availability would be way lower (if not "Always") in addition to a low Street Index. But that's simply not the case. It has the exact same Availability as SI 1 or higher pistols meaning that there's approximately the same number of Ares Predators on the market (whichever market that may be) as there are Browning Max-Powers, Remington Roomsweepers, and Ruger Super Warhawks.

Street Index is not Availability anymore than it's a degree of quality or brand name.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 8 2004, 04:20 PM

Alright, well, now for something completely different:

Perhaps Ares intentionally distributes the Predator through the gray markets at a reduced price as a means of advertising the reliability of its products to shadowrunners? Someone who buys an Ares Predator simply because its cheap might then be impressed by its design and performance, and go on to buy other Ares products (ones with higher SI's, like the HVAR, which also might be directly introduced by Ares into the black and gray markets) because, well, he knows they work. And hey, while they might end up equipping people who run against them, in the end isnt it better that they use Ares products while doing so?

As for the laser axe, I'm partial to the description that they have a reputation for sucking and black/gray distributors simply wouldnt be able to unload them if they charged full price. At retail stores, they have that gadget factor where its just kinda cool to have an axe with a laser on it, so they get a hefty pricetag for the rich weapons enthusiast target market. That applies less among shadowrunners.

But hey, if you're selling something that fell off the back of a truck, half price is still profit.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 8 2004, 04:27 PM

QUOTE (Lindt)

Someone way back on the first page said that the Pred. isnt the Ak-47 of handguns. I completly disagree. Its far and away the AK-47 of heavy pistols. Its the Colt 1911 of today, everyone who has a handgun has one of those.

It was me, and I haven't changed my view.

The AK-47 is 57 years old, and has been obsolescent since the 70s. Russia got rid of them over 20 years ago, and even China has been phasing them out since around those times. The legal, civilian market of the AK-47 is rather small. The semi-legal, military market is huge. The illegal market for them is fricking massive, with "Grey Kalashnikov" densities nearing 40 per 100 adult males in many countries. (I live in a country where that density is about 30 per 100 adult males.)

There are hundreds of millions of AKs and knock-offs (you can't have a cheap knock-off of a near-free weapon) in the world. Pictures of warehouses full of nothing but AKs keep popping up from Afghanistan and Iraq. They are still made in large numbers in Africa and Asia, and the old ones rarely go out of circulation with pre-60s AKs still soldiering on all around the globe.

The Ares Predator does not even begin to compare, nor does the M1911, and it seems like a very stupid idea that a pistol ever could.

[Edit]Forgot the important bit. The Soviet Union and China were, at the height of their power, pumping out several million of these guns per year, and they were doing it at near-zero cost for themselves. It was in their interest to give out lots of guns to anyone who might be sympathetic with them, and it was also in their interest to sell them dirt cheap all over the world in immense numbers. "Semi-legal" arms trade can be a major source of income to an oppressive regime, after all. Since then several other more or less oppressive regimes have followed suit.

When the Soviet Union started phasing the 7.62x39mm AKs out, they had to dump those dozens of millions of weapons somewhere. Most they probably sold at about $5 each where ever they could, and the rest they just dumped somewhere. Several other countries have since faced a similar situation when phasing out the same guns. Plus, in many a standing army with AKs as their standard guns, their price is measured in packs of cigarettes or bottles of booze -- which aren't exactly expensive in such countries.[/Edit]

Posted by: gfen Jul 8 2004, 04:32 PM

Blah. Blah. Blah.

Lindt is the only one who seems to have gotten in in all of this.

Street index reflects the price on the street.

Thus, the predator is ubiqitious. Its common. They get stolen more often than some thing esoteric. They get used in robberies more often than something esoteric. People need to dump them.

You don't know what history is on that street bought pistol, who's used it, where it came from, whatever. Its off the street.

As for the axe? Who knows, plenty of reasons have been suggested. I like the thought that no one wants them because they're junk, not being a walking rules lawyer, is the availability of the axe very high? If so, that perfectly validates the theory that the SI is low becuase its junk.

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 8 2004, 04:35 PM

I think you're all missing the good doctor's point, which is, specifically, that if street index represents ubiquity and thus market saturation, why the fuck aren't they also easier to acquire?

Posted by: Skeptical Clown Jul 8 2004, 06:02 PM

Rarity isn't the sole determinant of price. Street Index and Availability aren't particularly sophisticated mechanics, but they're functional. Availability reflects the Supply side of the economic equation; Street Index reflects the Demand. Supply and Demand are, themselves, horrifically complicated factors that economists will debate over until the end of time, so I wouldn't expect a simple catchall explanation for how it works in a game.

Posted by: Cain Jul 8 2004, 08:03 PM

SC's got it. Let's say a shopkeeper has two different types of guns in stock. The first, he has only one or two-- he has no trouble buying them or keeping them in stock, but he there's simply not a whole hell of a lot out there. The second kind, he's got crates and crates full of them, some collecting dust in the back room.

Both guns are equally availiable-- meaning, that it's equally likely that you can go into a gun store and find what you want. However, because there's so many of type X in stock, the price on them drops.

Let's try an example closer to home. We all shop for gaming books, yes? Let's say that you're going to buy gaming books, with money to spend but no particular idea as to what you want to buy. We'll start off at our supersize Borders and Nobles, to take a look. They actually don't have anything in stock today; it appears they've filled the racks with graphic novels. Maybe if you look around, you can find one or two old things, but nothing you want.

So, instead you have to go looking for a place that carries the books you want. Eventually, you end up at your friendly neighborhood gaming store. You see several super-shiny Shadowrun books lovingly placed on the front racks, and a ton of new D20 stuff sitting in the bargain bins. But they don't have the Shadowrun book that you want, so you go to a different store. Once again, you find several shiny Shadowrun books in the nice racks, and the exact same new D20 stuff in the bargain bins.

The Shadowrun books are an example of moderate availiability and low market saturation. It's not hard at all to get a hold of them. D20 products, OTOH, are an example of moderate availibility and low price-- they have supersaturated the market to the point where they've devalued themselves. They're not any more *availiable*-- you'd find them in as many places as you'd find Shadowrun books-- but the prices have dropped because they've got too much stock.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 8 2004, 08:12 PM

I can give an example even better than that. I can walk into my FLGS looking for games and find Shadowrun books in two places. The new stuff is all over in a section with the other books, and it'll cost me retail. That's because these are new books and haven't been collecting dust. There are people out there who want those books and haven't gotten them yet.

Now, in another part of the store are some more SR books. They're all 50% off the retail price because they're old and not in demand. Some of them aren't too terribly easy to find (I believe I saw a copy of R:AS there a while back, but forgot to pick it up), but they're still half price because they're "obsolete" older books.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 8 2004, 08:19 PM

It's amazing how your brilliance has changed on the subject, Cain. First, it was so obvious that Street Index represented quality and brand name, but now it's been your point the entire time that it had nothing to do with those things. Fascinating how that works.

In any case, I do like the idea of Supply vs. Demand, though it still doesn't seem to reflect that accurately. Unless there are just as many Ares Predators on the market as there are Browning Max-Powers, but because everyone has one (despite the relatively high Availability thereof), no one needs or wants to buy one to the point where the Predator costs half as much. Eh?

It also means that a Combat Axe, although readily available, is in such high demand that it has a Street Index of 2. Sames goes for the Toyota Elite and most other things in the game with a SI over 1. And, apparently, so many people with over a million nuyen to blow are trying to get a DocWagon variant of the Citymaster that it warrants a Street Index of 2.5.

Oh, and this demand is only the demand on the Street. If you buy it legally, Demand has no impact on the item.

Odd.

In any case, Availability (and the base cost) is both Supply and Demand. If the Supply was so much to warrant a low Availability score, then the Demand must obviously not be enough to lower the Supply.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 8 2004, 08:20 PM

QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Jul 8 2004, 02:12 PM)

Actually, that's a reflection of Availability. Unless, of course, you're buying those books from an illegal source instead of a legal one where you can always find them without a problem.

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jul 8 2004, 08:23 PM

Whoa, R:AS is an old book that's not easy to find anymore? Man, I'm too young to feel this old...

Posted by: Thanos007 Jul 8 2004, 08:23 PM

[QUOTE]Oh, and this demand is only the demand on the Street. If you buy it legally, Demand has no impact on the item.

The price is already adjusted for demand.

Thanos

Posted by: Lindt Jul 8 2004, 08:28 PM

Austere Emancipator: My point is its the standered in its class. You think Assult Rifle, you think Ak-47. IN Sr, you think Heavy Pistol, you think Ares Pred. Ill admit, it wont have the market saturation that an AK has now, but then again, Ares hasent be dumping them out by the millions for 60 years. When it comes down to the line, a low avil is how easy it is to find, a low SI is how easy it is to BUY. With a SI of .25 someone is just getting rid of them, but only to the people that know how to find them. Think RPG-7s. Millions and Millions, and if you could get one, getting 100 isnt that hard.
And yes, Thanos, is you buy it leagly, its the listed price, no change.

Posted by: Skeptical Clown Jul 8 2004, 08:42 PM

Personally, I never claimed it was a very GOOD mechanic... I said it was functional. If Street Index is lower than 1, it just means that the demand on the street is lower than the supply available on the black/grey market. The rationale behind it may be preposterous, but the mechanic itself is fine.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 8 2004, 11:26 PM

The bottom line is that the availability and street index values dont actually represent anything cold/hard/specific. Like nearly everything else in the game, they attempt to vaguely define in a simplistic manner a situation that is actually quite complex. When any value you encounter seems nonsensical, you can attempt to come up with an explanation that works for you, change the value, or decide not to care.

I generally prefer to try to come up with explanations for strange values rather than changing the value, but in some cases (such as the magical gear availabilities) I simply can not. Whatever. There exist untold multitudes of potential explanations for why something might have a Street Index of X or an availability of Y. Either come up with one that suits you or dont... but, please, dont insult people for their attempts at the same thing.

Posted by: Cain Jul 9 2004, 03:58 AM

QUOTE

First, it was so obvious that Street Index represented quality and brand name, but now it's been your point the entire time that it had nothing to do with those things.

You really need to work on that reading comprehension, Funk. I've been making that point all along-- you're the one who's been arguing differently.

QUOTE

In any case, I do like the idea of Supply vs. Demand, though it still doesn't seem to reflect that accurately. Unless there are just as many Ares Predators on the market as there are Browning Max-Powers, but because everyone has one (despite the relatively high Availability thereof), no one needs or wants to buy one to the point where the Predator costs half as much. Eh?

I agree with you a bit more, here. Still, there's a difference between "everyone has one" and "everyone has a crate of the damn things".

Try this-- do you read comic books? There's probably a bunch of comic stores near you. If I want to go in there and buy a random X-men comic, I'll have dozens of titles to choose from, with plenty of copies in stock. The availiability is therefore low.

Now, let's say that instead, I want to go in and buy a trade paperback of a certain popular saga. Well, all comic stores will have it in, but they probably only have one or two copies. The availiability is equal for the comic books-- I don't have to search any harder to find one-- and the differences are mild, but the prices are going to be wildly different.

Availiability does not exactly represent supply, I'll have to edit my comments on that. Availiability represents how easy it is to get a hold of said item. A large supply helps, but isn't required. Street Index indicates how common said item is on the street, which includes all the rigamarole required to get it there.

(And yes, I do allow people to buy "hot" items at a steep discount. Of course, "hot" means that someone is actively looking for said item, and the trail is still warm. Generally, only desperate Shadowrunners will take those sort of deals. Buying things at SI presumes that all trails have gone stone cold, and there's virtually no chance of the rightful owner coming looking for it. Using this theory, I once did a setup for an entire campaign... but that's a tale for another day.)

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 9 2004, 04:02 AM

So in a very restricted sense, it's sort of like an AK-47 of heavy pistols. After all, it's not because the AK is thought of as a standard AR that its SI is so low -- indeed, I doubt it's thought of that way in many Western cultures, I'd even bet against it in the US. The reason the SI is low is that they've been dumped out by the millions for 57 years.

As for RPG-7s, I doubt you could easily get a hundred in the US. In the areas where they are used by militaries/militias, maybe. But in those parts, acquiring an RPG-7 generally requires nothing more than a stroll to the bazaar.

Regardless, I do think the AK-47 is/used to be a good example of a weapon with a very low SI while still having an Availability significantly higher than 2/12hrs, at least around here. But Predators aren't like AK-47s in the more important ways. I realize that SR writers might like to think they are, but it still is a ridiculous idea.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 9 2004, 04:06 AM

QUOTE (Cain)

You really need to work on that reading comprehension, Funk. I've been making that point all along-- you're the one who's been arguing differently.

Right. Here's a few blasts from the pasts...

QUOTE (CAIN)

QUOTE (Zazen)

So do you raise street index when someone wants an Ares Predator that is actually an "Ares Predator"?

They'd just be forced to buy it new.

Yep. Your whole argument the entire time has been the exact opposite of everything you said throughout the discussion. <thumbs up>

Posted by: Zazen Jul 9 2004, 04:10 AM

QUOTE (Arethusa)

I think you're all missing the good doctor's point, which is, specifically, that if street index represents ubiquity and thus market saturation, why the fuck aren't they also easier to acquire?

This has been addressed several times!

It IS easy to acquire. There is no easier heavy pistol! Yes, the TN is not 2, but 3. What does that mean? That the market may indeed be saturated, but that 3 is the minimum TN required to access the market at all.

Despite this, you may still disagree that SI has anything to do with supply. If so, then I ask that you abandon the attempt to show why this notion is wrong, but instead show me what is correct! Do what DF has refused or forgotten to do: tell me what you say SI represents.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 9 2004, 04:13 AM

I haven't refused or forgotten. I'm of the mind that it's not a very good mechanic at all because it's somewhat redundant with two other stats already listed (Price and Availability). The middleman and getting-around-legal-constraints make a lot of sense to me, too, but only for a Street Index higher than 1. I've simply been waiting for someone to come up with a good, solid explanation for low Street Indexes, which I still haven't seen yet.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jul 9 2004, 04:21 AM

The market forces for the black market tend to be quantitatively different than those on the legal market, even though the concepts are the same. SI is a simplified attempt at reflecting the differences in one simple multiplication problem. More specific details are reflected to some extent in the negotiation phase or by spending more cred to lower availability.

SI is not itself any specific market force, but a measure of the differences between the two markets.

How's that as an explanation?

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 9 2004, 04:26 AM

QUOTE (Zazen)

QUOTE (Arethusa @ Jul 8 2004, 11:35 AM)

I think you're all missing the good doctor's point, which is, specifically, that if street index represents ubiquity and thus market saturation, why the fuck aren't they also easier to acquire?

I don't disagree; I just think that, until now, it hasn't been explicitly addressed. I might've missed something, though; I'll admit I've only been skimming this thread.

QUOTE (Funk)

I've simply been waiting for someone to come up with a good, solid explanation for low Street Indexes, which I still haven't seen yet.

You got one on the first page, third post in the thread. Your assumption that weapons purchased illegally must be perfectly new and purchased recently legally before being laundered is the core flaw in your reasoning. Were this the case, yes, no street index above 1 (or even at 1) would make any sense, but it is simply not.

Posted by: Necro Tech Jul 9 2004, 04:27 AM

I should know better than to jump in on this one but.......

I think of street index as product desireability and perceived value. Not everything that performs the same function is equally desireable. While the Colt and the Predator have roughly the same stats and perform the same function they might be very different guns. I have never owned a pistol but I know for a fact the although many rifles fire the same calibur (I believe even the same round) they are put together is very different ways. This applies to all products.

Look at cars. Two cars in the same class like a Honda Accord and Toyota Camry depreciate at different rates. The same cars bought new off the lot three years later will cost less obviously but the percentage off MSRP will be different. Why? perceived value. Stolen cars however are a different story. Honda are much more expensive on the black market. Why? I don't have a clue.

As availability vs. commonality the two don't need to be related. After all, the availabilty is yours, not your fixers. While he can get either gun just as easily the perceived value of the predator is lower. Maybe its not sexy. Maybe people on the street don't want to pay full value for a gun to support those scum sucking goons at Ares. Maybe a gun thats a little bit lighter and a little more concealable is really worth twice as much. Who knows? But also remember that the street has regular customers. Joe shadowrunner might be able to get the fake sin but 99% of the sinless can't and those are the ones the market revolves around.

Or maybe, the game designers wanted to throw in a little market realism to keep gear acquisition from being a bunch a fixed number dice rolling.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 9 2004, 05:29 AM

QUOTE (Arethusa)

Actually I've been saying the exact opposite: The quality is exactly the same between the two. Whether you want to say they're used, cheap knock-offs or brand-new never-been-used it doesn't matter -- you can buy junk legally and you can buy top-of-the-line illegally and vice-versa. Street Index has no bearing on that.

QUOTE (Necro Tech)

Or maybe, the game designers wanted to throw in a little market realism to keep gear acquisition from being a bunch a fixed number dice rolling.

They did a better job in older editions when they listed flat price changes for entire categories of equipment. But when you have two items that are pretty much identical as far as Availability, Price, and function go, yet have a Street Index that's grossly different, it doesn't make much sense (as shown in that no one has yet given a good, solid reasoning for that difference that isn't already covered by another mechanic or simply GM fiat).

Like I said earlier in the thread, if all Heavy Pistols had a price reduction of 50% on the streets, that would make a bit more sense. Individual weapons would still have their individual Availabilities based on supply and demand would value their price within whichever market you're buying on. But again, the wild differences between otherwise identical items doesn't make any sense.

Posted by: Necro Tech Jul 9 2004, 05:52 AM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

Like I said earlier in the thread, if all Heavy Pistols had a price reduction of 50% on the streets, that would make a bit more sense. Individual weapons would still have their individual Availabilities based on supply and demand would value their price within whichever market you're buying on. But again, the wild differences between otherwise identical items doesn't make any sense.

Thats what I was trying to say. The guns are statistically the same but are not the same gun. Two different manufactures. Anymore would just be repeating my post. Since no one on this board can test the two weapons we just have to take the developers word for it that for the Sinless, the Browning(earlier reference to Colt was brain malfunction) is worth more to them for the reasons stated in my post.

Posted by: Cain Jul 9 2004, 07:34 AM

QUOTE

Then you definitely need to read the thread. Clearly, you haven't been able to follow my arguments. I won't make the automatic assumption that it's because you're stupider than a lombotomized toad; instead, I'll just use simple words.

At any event, have you ever been to a flea market? You can buy all kinds of new/slightly used stuff for lower than retail. Functionally, it's the same; but pricewise, it's different. A flea market is a perfect example of the "grey market", btw-- it's technically legal, but a lot of not-so-legal activity goes on.

Now, there are plenty of things at a flea market that just about everyone has. However, if people only have a few of Item X, the price will generally be higher than Item Y, which they have crates and crates of.

For this example, we'll use music CD's. Everyone who sells music CD's is going to have No Doubt, and the latest Britney Spears cacaphony. They're equally availiable, meaning that you can go to the exact same stores and expect to find both copies. However, the "cheap knock offs" have duplicated tones of Britney CD's; or a bunch fell off a truck, or what-have-you. So, each and every music stand will have 15+ Britney CD's, while they only have 2 or 3 No Doubt CD's.

Based on that, which will be most likely to be in the bargain bin?

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 9 2004, 07:47 AM

QUOTE (Cain)

Now, there are plenty of things at a flea market that just about everyone has. However, if people only have a few of Item X, the price will generally be higher than Item Y, which they have crates and crates of.

Once again: Availability and Price. Everything you're buying there is a legal purchase unless someone is specifically performing illegal sales in public view with little to no worries about an off-duty cop being in the crowd. So Street Index doesn't apply.

QUOTE

For this example, we'll use music CD's. Everyone who sells music CD's is going to have No Doubt, and the latest Britney Spears cacaphony. They're equally availiable, meaning that you can go to the exact same stores and expect to find both copies. However, the "cheap knock offs" have duplicated tones of Britney CD's; or a bunch fell off a truck, or what-have-you. So, each and every music stand will have 15+ Britney CD's, while they only have 2 or 3 No Doubt CD's.

So now you're saying that the only Audio MiniCDs you can buy on the streets are crappy music... that buying a quality band is impossible on the streets because, since Audio MiniCDs have a Street Index of 0.75, all music you buy on the streets is a "cheap knock-off" to reflect the price difference. Riiiiiiiiight.

That's the only thing I can gather from what you keep vomiting from your fingertips, because otherwise you're talking about Availability again.

QUOTE

Based on that, which will be most likely to be in the bargain bin?

Which Bargain Big are you talking about? The one at the store where you make the rest of your LEGAL purchases, or the black market one where you make your ILLEGAL purchases? You know, considering that's the canonical difference between paying the STREET INDEX and not paying the STREET INDEX.

Oh, and please don't let me stop the flip-flopping of your argument so you can try and steal other people's more insightful takes on what Street Index represents as if they were your arguments the entire time (only to prove otherwise yet again in your last post).

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jul 9 2004, 07:53 AM

Not being an econonmist, I suppose I'll probably be labelled as being stupider than a lobotomized toad on this, but...

Is it at all possible that SIs below 1 reflect an item that is taxed or has some other artificial bump up on the price? That's pretty much how it works with cigarettes, if I'm not mistaken. You get them cheaper through black market channels, because you're skipping state taxes. I can see the same being true with the Ares Predator. Since the most common legal means of getting one is through Weapons World, who gets them at basically manufacture price since they're owned by Ares, most of the markup is pure and simple profit. They're paying less for the Predator than the Browning. With the axe, I can see it's SI being lower than 1 because it got some horrible legal settlement against it because somebody bought it and caused millions of nuyen worth of damage to themselves doing something they were able to blame on the bum laser. If this got enacted as sort of a special tax on the Centurion, I can see the SI reflecting models that have been absconded with by shadowfolk before that tax could be enacted at a legal point of sale. Heck, I think I'd even support a tax on ALL combat axes, but that's just me. And I would use the revenue from it to pay for social services for children who've lost limbs.

Posted by: Birdy Jul 9 2004, 07:54 AM

Flea market is a good example. Even more so, if you have a border nearby. Some things that where new but cheaper than buying them officially. From what I learned by talking to a police officer some years back, they found the following stuff on the flea market during raids:

cigarets (only difference to original: No taxmark, Skimmed from the plant)

Bicycles (later turned out to be from a truckload full that had been stolen)

Car radios (still packaged and shrink-wrapped, skimmed from the plant)

All cheaper than legally bought since no one would buy them otherwise (You don't get a guarantee on flea market items definitely sold by dealers, not the original thiefs, so there is "overhead")

Another example:

There is no difference between a VW Golf (Rabbit in the US IIRC) build for the german market and one build for say the Netherlands. Both come from the same plant in Wolfsburg. Even with taxes and the overhead for re-import it was cheaper! for a german to acquire a so called EU re-import (a car from the Netherlands etc) than to buy one for the german market. If you bought directly, you even get better guarantee terms

And another one:

Modern Scoda, Seat and VW compact cars (Up to the Passat) are technically identical, using the same blueprints etc. This puts them into the "Pred and copies" class.

The cars sell for different prices (VW->Seat->Scoda)

Used car prices (even the theoretical "Schwacke" price for prime vehicles) vary astronomically, out of proportion to the original prices.

Why? Some stupid old-timer still believe that german cars are something special. Same with the Pred. Some people think it's special so it can be sold for a higher price.

Birdy

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jul 9 2004, 07:57 AM

By the way, I didn't mean to sound sarcastic when I was asking if that was possible. I'm really not an economist (for those of you who didn't figure that out), and have absolutely no idea if what I suggested is possible or not. I just meant to ask if anyone else thought it made sense, or if I was a flaming idiot (I am, but is it creeping into Shadowrun now, too?)

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 9 2004, 08:10 AM

QUOTE (Birdy)

All cheaper than legally bought since no one would buy them otherwise (You don't get a guarantee on flea market items wink.gif definitely sold by dealers, not the original thiefs, so there is "overhead")

The problem there is that it should be a universal trend in the black market/flea markets if it were true; everything you buy there that's legal (with or without a permit) is something "no one would buy [...] otherwise." An Ares Predator has the same Availability and Legal Code as a Browning Max-Power, so any Browning Max-Powers you buy on the black market, be they skimmed from the factory and still in their shrink-wrapped packaging, should have the same mark-down since "no one would buy them otherwise."

QUOTE

There is no difference between a VW Golf (Rabbit in the US IIRC) build for the german market and one build for say the Netherlands. Both come from the same plant in Wolfsburg. Even with taxes and the overhead for re-import it was cheaper! for a german to acquire a so called EU re-import (a car from the Netherlands etc) than to buy one for the german market. If you bought directly, you even get better guarantee terms wink.gif

That's reflected in the regional cost differences that sometimes show up in Shadowrun sourcebooks. There's little stopping a character (post-creation) beyond border crossings from going to one region where items are drastically cheaper and then coming back home. This applies towards legal purchases as well as street purchases, so again... it can't be an accurate reflection of what Street Index represents.

QUOTE

Modern Scoda, Seat and VW compact cars (Up to the Passat) are technically identical, using the same blueprints etc. This puts them into the "Pred and copies" class.

The cars sell for different prices (VW->Seat->Scoda)

That doesn't change the fact that you can still buy a VW illegally for the exact same price as a Scoda assuming they were just variant models of each other. Brand names have no bearings on Street Index. A Ford Americar and a Mercury Comet have the exact same stats -- of which Street Index is -- even though they're technically different vehicles.

Posted by: Pinel Jul 9 2004, 09:56 AM

Only on bulletin boards can you find conversations that last so long even when everyone is saying almost the same thing I'm not an economist either but I'll throw this in anyway:

Most of the disagreements here stem from people trying to apply the exact same market dynamics to both the Open and the Shadow economy, which doesn't work. Illegal commerce is by nature influenced by a lot of other, non-traditional market forces like the urgency of disposing of hot items, the cost of "sanitizing" stolen gear, etc.. This could be one of the reasons for SIs below 1, but nothing in the rules confirms that. So don't assume that two similar guns which are equally priced and available on the open market will remain so equal on the shadow market, but don't look to the rules for a clear explanation either.

QUOTE

Misfit Toy, you're right unless you accept the possibility that similar game stats for two items doesn't imply similar economic situations. Maybe the Browning would also have a SI of 0.5 except that its manufacturers include a lot of ID and anti-theft features compared to the Predator. This would make black market Brownings more expensive because of the work involved in "sanitizing" them. I agree that universal market trends make sense and are easier to accept, but the Predator SI doesn't fit that logic so we can either change the stat or rationalize it.

IMO it's easy to make up a believable answer (based on real-life economic principles) to why the Predator and the Browning can have the same game stats and Availability, but different SIs. Some of the reasons which appeal to me the most (compiled from all the other posts in this topic):

- The Predator is so popular and easy to replicate that there are dozens of illegal variants produced at lower cost, although none of these variants are available on the legal market. Availability doesn't change because the legal and illegal supplies are roughly the same size, although made up of differently-costed items from different sources.

- Alternatively to the reason above, the numerous illegal copies might have created a high percentage of lemons in black market Predators (only), and the street price is lower because black market demand is lower. Runners don't want to risk getting a flawed item (the chance is much lower if they buy a black market Browning) and fences must lower the price of their Predators to move them. Legit buyers in stores don't have that problem (and so pay top price) since they'll never risk picking an illegally-produced lemon off the shelf.

- Ares is purposely flooding the grey / black market with cheaper, older-version Predator 1 models to clear their stocks. They don't lower the price on the open market to protect sales volumes for the newer versions. At the same time, they want to improve the odds that criminals using their weapons will have the older, less powerful ones when facing Ares and other law enforcement troops.

Posted by: Birdy Jul 9 2004, 12:47 PM

QUOTE

QUOTE (Birdy)

Even on a flea market there are differences between brand names. Even so they might cost the same if bought legally.

That depends on wether you see the three stats as "one package" or not.

If you see the stats as one package (and you seem to) than your option is right.

If you see (Price, Avail.) as one package dealing with "Legal purchase" and SI as a factor of "how available is this thing in the grey/black market" it changes the end result.

In that case there are simply fewer BMP than APE in the legal market (smaller production run/less imported/fewer clones imported) and the SI [partially] reflects the fact that fewer can be "skimmed" at the factory. The economic model of SR is not (and IMHO doesn't need to be - it's a g<beeep> game!) to correctly take such things as customer base and customer preferences into account (i.e. I can easily order a .45 Government in germany but it would most likely be difficult to get one on the black market since it's not a typical european weapon. If I go for a Walter P1/P32 or a Browning HP that should be far easier. Avail is equal [Order and wait] but SI will be different since one is a european mass market stuff, the other is a foreign import)

Birdy

Posted by: Skeptical Clown Jul 9 2004, 03:21 PM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

With the original example of the axe, I think it's pretty easy to explain. The axe is unpopular; it was sent to a bunch of distributers, but got bad feedback and people rarely bought it. It still sits on the shelves of stores, probably available indefinitely because hardly anyone buys them. No sale or clearance price because... there aren't any rules for those.

When one pops up on the street, most street dealers probably don't have the room or the inclination to keep one of the things sitting around. They're looking to move it for more valuable and popular equipment.

Posted by: Cain Jul 9 2004, 07:10 PM

QUOTE

Translation: You've never been to a flea market.

QUOTE

So now you're saying that the only Audio MiniCDs you can buy on the streets are crappy music...

On the streets? Possibly. In stores in general? Dude, haven'y you noticed that you can pay more for one CD than another? Or is it in Funkelstienland everyone pays the exact same price for everything in a generic category?

QUOTE

That's the only thing I can gather from what you keep vomiting from your fingertips, because otherwise you're talking about Availability again.

Wrong! But thanks for playing! As a consolation prize, we're giving you another free chance to pass sixth-grade reading comprehension!

QUOTE

The "grey market" one that you seem to conveniently keep forgetting about, every time it disproves one of your arguments. I guarantee you, at any given flea market, you'll be lucky to find a legit music CD that's not in some kid's walkman. Same's true for the DVD's. Technically, they're not illegal to buy, only to manufacture, which is why it's a "grey" market.

QUOTE

The problem there is that it should be a universal trend in the black market/flea markets if it were true

Not necessarily. Look, every time a ninja or samurai movie makes it as a summer blockbuster, the flea markets get filled with knockoff katanas. It also has to do with locale-- it's cheaper to buy drugs in Canada than the US, so while there's a thriving grey market for the drugs here, there's not a corresponding one in Canada. Since the regional differences you cite are an advanced rule-- not fully implemented in 3e-- SI is the basic reflection of that.

Anyway, Availiability still only reflects how many people are selling said item, not how many they have for sale. We had another thread on that a while ago-- what happens if someone wants to buy a belt of AV ammo? The availiability rules presume that you're only buying one item.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 9 2004, 07:17 PM

QUOTE

Are you really this dense? Your arguments apply at all markets, not just black or grey ones. Street Index does not reflect any of the things you keep babbling on about. You're talking about Availability.

QUOTE

Anyway, Availiability still only reflects how many people are selling said item, not how many they have for sale.

Again, that's not specific to the grey or black markets. I have no idea why you can't get that through your skull.

Feel free to keep calling me stupid even though you're clearly the one who can't comprehend a simple fact.

Posted by: jebo Jul 10 2004, 09:58 AM

Hey, I don't normally post on message boards, but I saw the opportunity to needlessly lengthen this thread by posting something that restated various points already mentioned. That and I'm tired and feeling like a jerk.

X is a fixer who deals in stolen guns and is representative of the overall black market.
Y is a shadowrunner who wishes to purchase a gun illegally for unstated reasons.

To purchase the gun Y calls his contact, X, and asks about two specific guns: the Ares Predator and the Browning Max-Power. X has each of these guns in stock and would be willing to sell them to Y, if Y sweet-talks him enough, sounds like a safe business partner, etc. (etiquette)

At this point, note that due to the availability rating of each gun being 3, Y must devote an equal amount of sweet-talk to X to be able to negotiate a price for either gun. The availability rating represents only the amount of work Y has to do to convince X to sell to him(or alternatively to go looking for the item), not the overall supply of the gun in the black market.

Currently X has 5 Browning Max-Powers and 25 Ares Predators in stock, all brand new off the back of a truck. X desires, for whatever reason, to sell them all in a month. He expects that he could sell exactly 5 of each gun every month at retail cost.

Since X can sell all of his BMP’s at retail, the street index is 1.0.

The monthly demand (5) is less than X’s supply (25) of the AP, but X estimates that he could sell all 25 AP’s in the next month if he priced them at half of retail cost. X is willing to sell at this price because he acquired the guns for 10% of retail cost. This places the street index at 0.5

End result:

Retail price / Black market price / SI

AP: 450 / 250 / 0.5

BMP: 450 / 450 / 1.0

The availability of the gun represents only how hard it is to find someone to sell to you. The street index represents supply and demand numbers in the black market. These numbers are not comparable to going to a retail store, because the retail market has a whole different set of costs, supply and demand.

So an axe can have a high availability TN; either few black market suppliers have them, or they are wary of selling to just anyone. If those same suppliers have an oversupply of that item they are likely to sell it at less than retail cost, assuming that they still make a profit.

Alternatively, a car could have a low availability TN and a high street index in a case where suppliers are readily available, but buyers who need to keep their names off of a registration (say if they plan to crash the car through a bank wall) are more plentiful than the supply of stolen cars.

Now insult me, that's always fun.

Posted by: Cain Jul 10 2004, 09:18 PM

Thank you, jebo. Couldn't have put it better myself.

QUOTE

Your arguments apply at all markets, not just black or grey ones. Street Index does not reflect any of the things you keep babbling on about. You're talking about Availability.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong!

First of all, the argument does apply a bit at all markets; but there's this thing called "Manufactured Suggested Retail Price" that means new items will tend to be sold within a fixed price range. New, legit items were paid for at the full price, so the question becomes, how much of a profit can they make off of said item? Stock that sits around collecting dust, even if you paid pennies for the lot, is effectively worthless.

Street index does, therefore, reflect all of the things I mention. Availiability only deals with how hard it is to get a hold of a single item (read p 273) and not how many the dealers have in stock.

If you want another example of availibility vs street index... have you ever watched a TV? Seen an ad for a furniture store or a car lot? Ever notice how often they have "We're overstocked!" sales? Basically, for some "unknown" reason, they have more stock this weekend than usual. The availiability remains the same-- you can still go to the competition, and find the exact same item-- but now the prices are dropping as supply increases.

Posted by: kevyn668 Jul 11 2004, 08:09 AM

The "Overstocked Sale" is usually a lie.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 02:44 PM

And you KNOW how often you see those at the black market.

Street Index = Black Market.

Black Market != Thrift Stores.
Black Market != Sales.
Black Market != Stores Advertising on Television.

Thus...

Street Index != Thrift Stores.
Street Index != Sales.
Street Index != Stores Advertising on Television.

Street Index has nothing to do with any of the crap you keep spouting. It is ONLY the price difference when buying things illegally. I-L-L-E-G-A-L-L-Y. As in not buying it at a retail store. As in not buying it from a store advertising on television. As in not buying it through any legal channels whatsoever.

Considering you can't even get WHAT the Street Index applies to straight, it's no wonder you can't come up with a decent explanation for what it's supposed to represent.

You've gone from used items to cheap knock-offs to frelling color differences, and now you're claiming that it applies to legal purchases, too. Hell, you're saying that it *is* Availability even though Availability covers Availability (a novel concept, huh).

What's next? Concealability isn't really how well you can conceal an item, it's how much damage it is despite the Damage Code? That's the exact same idiocy you're constantly churning out in this thread.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 11 2004, 07:27 PM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

I haven't refused or forgotten.

QUOTE

I'm of the mind that it's not a very good mechanic at all because it's somewhat redundant with two other stats already listed (Price and Availability). The middleman and getting-around-legal-constraints make a lot of sense to me, too, but only for a Street Index higher than 1.

So you're saying that you have no solid idea what canon Street Index is supposed to mean, but that you know for sure what it doesn't mean. I can certainly respect the position of not knowing but refuting, having adopted it a few times myself.

Have you considered, however, that discounting supply as a factor describes a system where the supply of an item will never affect its price? Even if the black market is absurdly bloated and availability (in your opinion, the sole representation of supply) drops to -30, they'll still cost full price. Don't you find that odd?

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 07:30 PM

Nope, of the ideas offered forth so far, supply is one that almost works. The only problem is that it would only apply to the black market since that's the only thing Street Index applies to. It's also never dynamic, it's as constant as Price and Availability are.

Also, if it truly represented supply, why doesn't it have any impact whatsoever on Availability or how many items are available? The only change is that it alters how much you pay, and only on the black market.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 11 2004, 08:03 PM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy @ Jul 11 2004, 02:30 PM)

Nope, of the ideas offered forth so far, supply is one that almost works. The only problem is that it would only apply to the black market since that's the only thing Street Index applies to.

You must've confused my post a little. Black-market supply/demand is what I'm saying is a factor in SI. Of course it only applies to the black market.

QUOTE

It's also never dynamic, it's as constant as Price and Availability are.

As you surely know, the GM can change numbers as he sees fit. The current system has the great advantage of allowing him to create a wide variety of effects by manipulating only two or three stats. The decision to sever the connection between SI and supply/demand makes adjusting for changes in black-market supply or demand a difficult and complicated one for the GM. He'd have to create a whole new (redundantly applied!) stat to represent it.

You can see how SI is a more valuable tool for the GM if it is said to have a connection to supply and demand.

QUOTE

Also, if it truly represented supply, why doesn't it have any impact whatsoever on Availability or how many items are available?

You are saying, I think, that if supply is a factor in SI, it cannot be a factor in Availability. This is quite untrue! It should certainly be a factor in both, and I have seen nothing to indicate that it is not.

Posted by: Cain Jul 11 2004, 08:04 PM

QUOTE

Street Index has nothing to do with any of the crap you keep spouting. It is ONLY the price difference when buying things illegally. I-L-L-E-G-A-L-L-Y. As in not buying it at a retail store. As in not buying it from a store advertising on television.

BZZT! Wrong answer!

QUOTE

As in not buying it through any legal channels whatsoever.

And wrong yet again!

Look, let's go back to the big controversial one. Senior citizens in the USA are going across the border, to Canada, to buy their perscription drugs. This is what's known as the g-r-e-y market, which is legal at every step but illegal overall. In other words: It's perfectly legal to go to Canada, it's perfectly legal to buy perscription drugs there, and it's perfectly legal to posess said drugs. However, it's illegal to do the whole thing. What's more, some drugstores are even doing this-- they buy from a Canadian distributor, which in turn allows them to sell for a lower price. In short, there are *several* thriving legal markets in illicit goods, many of whom can (and do!) advertise.

The grey market involves buying things through less-than-legal channels. Legal items that were acquired through less than legal means is the best example of this. To a degree, illegal items purchased through similar means are also allowed-- knock-off CD's, for one, are legal to own and legal to buy; they're just illegal to manufacture and illegal to knowingly sell.

Therefore:

Street Index != Black Market
Street Index = Black, Grey, and other quasi-legal markets

Grey market = Flea markets
Grey Market = Sales
Grey market = Legal advertising

You can't seem to get the difference between a thrift store and a flea market, can you? No wonder why you can't tell the difference between availiability and street index.

QUOTE

Also, if it truly represented supply, why doesn't it have any impact whatsoever on Availability or how many items are available? The only change is that it alters how much you pay, and only on the black market.

Because 1: Availiability only determines how readily you can find *one* copy of said item, not cases of them; and 2: It is not the "black" market, it's the Shadow market... and, if you'd read your book, you'd see that.

Let's even quote the book. The relevant sentence is on p 273, which apparently you haven't read. I guess you must be stymied by the Astral Space section.

QUOTE ("SR3 BBB")

The Street Index affects the price of the item if purchased through the shadow or grey markets.

Don't worry, I know that some day, you will be able to read your BBB all the way through. But don't stress yourself out; focus on your Dick-and-Jane primers first.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 11 2004, 08:11 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 11 2004, 03:04 PM)

The relevant sentence is on p [b]273[/i], which apparently you haven't read. I guess you must be stymied by the Astral Space section.

I looked for page [b]273[/i] but was unable to find it. Did you mean page 273, or page 273?

Now that this obnoxious quip is out of the way, might we stop harping on a single typo that occured a week ago?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 11 2004, 08:15 PM

Do you ask a fire to stop burning, or a plague to stop spreading, or the rain to stop falling? Do you ask the earth to stop spinning, or the waters to stop flowing? Why, then, do you ask the Dumpshockers to stop incessantly recalling tiny errors?

~J

Posted by: Zazen Jul 11 2004, 08:25 PM

That you're right makes me want to cry.

Posted by: jebo Jul 11 2004, 08:34 PM

QUOTE

I'm going to avoid the black/grey market issue.

The SI would in fact be dynamic, as would price and availability. They would all change with time. The weapon list represents where all three factors are at a specific point in the timeline to me.

QUOTE

Also, if it truly represented supply, why doesn't it have any impact whatsoever on Availability or how many items are available? The only change is that it alters how much you pay

SI can still be an indication of supply. Supply does impact availability, but it is not the only factor to do so. Inherent transaction risk would have a large impact on availability in my mind. If I'm selling you a hold-out pistol I'm less worried about it than if I'm selling you an assault cannon. Because the price is higher, the item is more illegal, etc. the risk goes way up. You might want to rob/kill me at the transaction, it has a higher probability of being a police sting, or I just want to make sure you have good credit. Ok, probably not that last one, but you get the idea.

Since the transaction is more risky to me, you need to have better etiquette to convince me to even tell you I have one. I'm not going to sell assault cannons to just anyone even if I have 1,000,000 of them; it's too risky. If I did have that many I might lower my standards a bit, say from availability 16 to 14.

Of course, the SI is 2 for an assault cannon, so for a more topical example compare the uzi III to the AVS: same price, more illegal, higher availability, lower street index.

As to "how many items are available," that is not a listed stat anywhere I know about. That is something to be inferred from the nature of the item, the flavor text, and the street index.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 09:02 PM

You guys do realize, of course, that you're arguing that Ordinary Clothing is in shorter supply than Armored Jackets, right? And in Cain's case at least, this applies to both legal and illegal markets. Oh hell, that there's fewer articles of Ordinary Clothing on the market than REAL LEATHER Clothing.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 11 2004, 09:11 PM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

No, they're arguing that multiple factors are at work that are abstracted and there can be multiple reasons for SI and availability. There's a difference. They are arguing that that COULD explain the availability or SI of regular clothing, but I believe in this case they do not. Abstract, Abstract, Abstract. And you are not given all the market conditions to specifically determine what causes what.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 09:18 PM

Nope, they're arguing it's definitely that. At least when it suits their argument. At other times it's definitely that its a cheap knock-off (of which real leather is still cheaper than ordinary clothing). At other times its definitely that its used clothing (of which real leather is apparently donated to Good Will far more often than ordinary clothing is). At other times its definitely because they have a different color. At other times its definitely because {insert idiotic Cain remark here}. etc.

On all markets, of course.

Apparently, the one thing it definitely isn't in most cases, is the added cost for dealing with middlemen. Page [b]273[/i] -- despite making it clear that that is the primary reason for it -- should be completely dismissed because that does nothing to explain low Street Index values.

But of course I'm sure Cain'll waltz in and say "of course, good job BitBasher, I've been saying that all along!!!!!!" So thumbs up to that.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 11 2004, 09:18 PM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

You guys do realize, of course, that you're arguing that Ordinary Clothing is in shorter supply than Armored Jackets, right?

Remember that "shorter supply" only has meaning in relation to demand. Ordinary clothing may well be in shorter supply, in relation to demand, than armor jackets. That doesn't mean that armor jackets exist on the black market in greater quantity than that of clothing, though. Only that the quantity exceeds the demand by more.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 09:19 PM

See. It's definitely supply. Which, if it were, page [b]273[/i] definitely wouldn't have mentioned it. That would have been too easy.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 11 2004, 09:39 PM

How do these middlemen decide how much profit to charge? Some items have identical availability and legality codes, yet differing SIs. If availability is the only representation of supply/demand, there's no reason for them to pad more for one than the other. Yet they do!

Perhaps the page you mention might shed some light about how they decide to raise prices on items:

"Because obtaining something illegally usually involves going through numerous middlemen, the price of an item tends to rise dramatically, especially if it is a hot commodity."

Aha! It seems that if the demand outstrips supply the price of the item tends to rise dramatically, which is done by applying Street Index.

Now, a good question is: why mention middlemen at all? I say it is because supply/demand considerations are out of the scope of a shadowrunner. You're just buying a pred. You don't get inventory listings of a hundred arms dealers and know why they're cheap. All you know is that you got charged less by these middlemen because it's not a hot commodity. The game is kept to a lower level by sticking to that, which IMO is a good thing.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jul 11 2004, 09:56 PM

So, who's up for petitioning FanPro to release a "Marketplaces of the Dark and Shadowy" sourcebook for some "realistic" market information instead of these three sissy numbers?

Posted by: Cain Jul 12 2004, 04:06 AM

QUOTE

Nope, they're arguing it's definitely that.

Actually, the only "definite" comment is that your reading comprehension needs work.

If you want an explaination for ordinary clothing, think about Flats from SSC. That could mean that flats have replaced ordinary clothing among the poor and SINless. That shouldn't affect the SINless demand for body armor, however.

Posted by: Nephyte Jul 12 2004, 05:43 AM

From what I've overheard such things as guns can in fact be sold for much less on the street then the price they can be bought for in the store. Why?

A) They were stolen. Thus selling them for anything is pure profit.

B) They were smuggled in from some place where they were much cheaper then where you are buying them.

C) If the black market is saturated with lots of handguns people are going to move them for less then they would if there are few handguns in the black market.

Street Index under 1 is very very common in real life. Ugh, I can't believe I just used a game mechanic and real life in the same sentance. Anyways, the point is, the reason why there is a black market in the first place is that you can get Hot goods for less then you'd have to pay in a store.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say the only time street index should be above 1 is if the item is not available for purchase to the general public but is rather a restricted item. Anything that can fall off the back of a truck *cough cough* should generally have be sold through illegal channels for lower then store price.

No one is ever going to make money selling black market nikes for 150 bucks if the regular nikes sell for 100.

In regard to other items such as guns, computers and the like, I can only say find the seediest bar in your nearest big city and see what you can pick them up for there. I'll go out on a limb and say you won't be paying sticker price for them either.

I think Street index is a poorly designed game mechanic as a set item should never have a set Street Index but rather be variable, and up to the GM. That's just my opinion however.

Posted by: Cain Jul 12 2004, 07:08 AM

Yeah, that's the big reason for the black/grey market today. You can buy legal items for less there than you can elsewhere. Right now, I'd say the biggest grey market in the USA is for *legal* perscription drugs, which are cheaper across the border. Software is probably a distant second.