Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Using two pistols
Posted by: FXcalibur Jul 6 2004, 09:12 AM
Hey guys, I got a concept for a character who uses two handguns, though not at once. Would I still have to use Ambidex/Off-hand Pistols when using my off-hand or my regular pistols skills?
Also, I don't have my books handy at the moment - Can I shoot two targets at once, albeit close together?
Not related - Does the roomsweeper look like more like a shotgun or a handgun? If I load shock lock inside + silence the thing, do I use regular supression rules or shotgun supression rules?
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 6 2004, 09:49 AM
For the offhand thing: I'd say you'd still need ambidexterity but at at lower level. Probably 4 for no penalty. Seems more like a GM ruling because there's absolutely nothing in the books to say you can't.
So I'd say yes it possible, but talk to the GM for exact rules. It'd probably be treated as defaulting for +2TN but full combat pool or what have you. Probably -1TN per two points of ambi-dexterity.
As for shooting two targets: I don't think that that is actually mentioned in the rules. Technically you'd be firing at one target with a SA and the second with your remaining SA, one right after the other. In game terms you'd probably roll the first then the second as if switching targets, and time wise it'd count as hitting two people basically at the same time.
Another GM ruling I'd say.
As for the Roomsweeper it says it uses heavy pistol ranges, but shotgun rules. Frankly as a GM I'd rule as a shotgun for shotgun rounds and pistols for normal rounds. These skills are pretty shitty. To play it safe just presume shotgun rules.
You'd use shotgun suppression rules, but I'd change it depending on at ammo you're using. Anything shotgun related and its SG suppression. "normal" rounds (ie: heavy pistol) and its a normal silencer is what I'd say.
A shotgun just makes a really loud ass BANG. A heavy pistol bullet won't.
As for the looks, I imagine it something akin to a sawed off shotgun with the barrel cut down right to the wood grip or just before it. It'd look like a typical sawed off shotgun but could probably be used in one hand by anyone, with TN mods of course.
Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 6 2004, 12:19 PM
Isn't there a rule in CC about having a +2 TN penalty for using your off hand to perform tasks normally done with your primary hand? Ambidexterity 4 eliminates that penalty.
Aside from that, using two pistols in series is very similar to having one gun with double the ammo capacity. I'd treat it as such.
Posted by: Arethusa Jul 6 2004, 01:48 PM
Do not load a shotgun with shock lock rounds and suppress it. That's really quite dangerous in terms of destroying the suppressor, and could end up huring you too. You want to pop locks with a suppressed shotgun, just use slugs. Better, take a couple points in demolitions and set some quick shaped breaching charges.
Posted by: Modesitt Jul 6 2004, 02:47 PM
| QUOTE |
| Hey guys, I got a concept for a character who uses two handguns, though not at once. Would I still have to use Ambidex/Off-hand Pistols when using my off-hand or my regular pistols skills? |
You don't use off-hand weapon skills with ranged weapons. That's exclusively a quirk of melee combat. But yes, you need Ambidexterity 8 unless you want to be firing at TN penalties, on top of not getting laser sights, smartlinks, or scope perks. Going phys adept and taking a couple levels of Improved Ability: SomeGunSkill is highly recommended, as is sucking up to your favorite mage to cast Improved Aim on you.
Remember that the way the ranged ambi rules work, you're able to fire both with one action. IE If they're both set on Burst Fire, you can fire off 4 3-round bursts in a single pass. If they're both set to full auto, you can fire two full-auto bursts in a pass.
Pistols are nice, but IMO it's all about SMGs set on burst fire. If your GM will let you switch out or upgrade lower-rated Gas Vents into higher grade ones, snap up either the HK-227 or the Ingram Smartgun. Load them with Ex-Explosive with tracers and go to town. Slap an extended range laser sight and scope on just one of the SMGs if concealability isn't an issue - Then if neccessary, you can use the scope and laser sight with your tracers for rather accurate 'long-range'(150 meters at most) burst fire.
If your heart is REALLY set on dual pistols above all else, pick the Savalette Guardian for your pistol of choice. Still get the joys of tracers, you don't need the stock to get to 6 RC, and you can plink away with high-power attacks.
Recoil - Personalized Grip/Gas Vent IV/Retractable stock gets you to 6. Take the version of the retractable stock listed in the CC Gun Modifications section. That one doesn't reduce concealability when not in use.
| QUOTE |
| Also, I don't have my books handy at the moment - Can I shoot two targets at once, albeit close together? |
They don't even neccessairily have to be close together.
| QUOTE |
| Not related - Does the roomsweeper look like more like a shotgun or a handgun? If I load shock lock inside + silence the thing, do I use regular supression rules or shotgun supression rules? |
What they said. Pure GM thing. Maybe you can get him to say 'Silenced like a heavy pistol when firing heavy pistol rounds'.
Posted by: BIG BAD BEESTE Jul 6 2004, 04:41 PM
ARGH! The whole ambidexterity and off-hand skills thing!
OK, +2TN for using the off hand and a further +2TN modifier for using two weapons. Also any uncompensated recoil of one weapon is applied to the other too. Hence the reason why its best to go for pistols and nicely recoil compensated SMGs than the stupid Ryan Mercury twin Ingram Supermach 100 stunt.
Personally, I don't like the off hand weapon skills rules, but then hey I modified the melee combat rules to work in a more heroic/dramatic action way. More precise in stating the maneouvres and less abstract than the official rules. Then again, I also allow the adept Talent of ambidexterity @ 0.5 cost (another option for Improved Senses).
As for shooting a two different targets in the same action with two different weapons. Hmmm, definately a GM ruling, but it should be possible. I like Mr Woo's cinematic Twin Pistols O' Death style too much not to include such options in my games. I'd hike the TN's up though.
As for the good old Remington Roomsweeper. Its a bloody shotgun NOT a pistol. As such I class it under the Shotguns skill (after all, this implies knowing how to shoot the spread effect buckshot) and make it use shotgun ammo instead of pistol. Sorry. Just venting a little frustration there. See the cool Elmore cover illustration for 1st & 2nd Editions. Its the gun that the mage Sally Tsung is holding up. As for sticking a suppressor on it - GAH! I rule the thing would be shredded when firing non-solid slug rounds (but hey, I'm going on common sense here. I'm no gunbunny who has access to this sort of real life info. We have really severe gun control laws over here in Blighty. 
)
Posted by: Raife Jul 6 2004, 05:08 PM
In real life I have no problems firing a pistol with my left hand. I am not ambidexterous, but my aim is nearly as good. I still hit the target, i just have a MINUTE amount of scatter at 50 meters, at 10 meters you can't tell which hand I shot with.
HOWEVER, the wrist is weaker, so I can't fire it as fast with accuracy. I would say that means more recoil rather than less accuracy. This whole "ambidexterous" thing in games in general really cracks me up. People are better with their off hand than they know.
Posted by: Siege Jul 6 2004, 05:13 PM
It depends on what you're trying to do - shooting is one thing, writing is another.
Feel free to adjust the rules to fit your personal experience - as many of the gun bunnies on this forum will tell you, the rules are often written for sake of game mechanic and balance, not for any real grounding in practical experience.
-Siege
Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 6 2004, 05:48 PM
You know, everyone keeps bringing up the penalties which only occur when you are firing both weapons with the same simple action... which is not what the original question is about. If you fire each weapon with a simple action (not the same simple action), you get a +2 TN from the offhand penalty on your secondary hand and nothing else.
Ambidexterity 4 pts takes care of it completely.
Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 6 2004, 06:01 PM
Nope, it's not a +2 offhand penalty, it's a +0 to +4 one depending on what the GM wants to give for it. While the rules don't specifically state it, its implied that you need the same level of Ambidexterity to avoid that particular type of penalty on a 1:1 basis. So if the GM decides its a +2 penalty, you only need Ambidexterity 2 to use your off-hand for that particular action.
Me, when I'm GMing, I don't apply any penalties for using two pistols in that fashion. It's a style choice at that point, and the only thing you're gaining is the ability to switch between ammo types at the cost of having to have twice as many weapons/twice as many Induction Pads/inability to reload without holstering or dropping one of the weapons. Otherwise, nothing is really gained.
I personally like using it with two SS weapons, like the Ruger Super Warhawk.
Posted by: kevyn668 Jul 7 2004, 04:46 AM
I'm with MT on this. As long as you're not firing both at the same time, no penalty. I have characters that do it frequently. It doesn't really change the outcome of shootouts given the rules that are already in place.
Rock on.
Posted by: Cain Jul 7 2004, 05:45 AM
It does bear mention that recoil modifiers do apply. I generally do apply a small penalty, to keep people from firing twin shotguns with 1 point RC.
Posted by: Arethusa Jul 7 2004, 05:48 AM
There is a base +2 penalty to both weapons if they're long arms fired with only one hand, I believe. Kind of senseless if you play with the ambidexterity rules that put you at +4 with your off hand with even a pistol, but not like it's the first time.
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 7 2004, 07:10 AM
I don't agree with the rules set forth in the CC (+2TN for "two-handed" weapons weilded in one hand) if you have a sawed-off barrel. Sure the Recoil will be hell if its a shotgun, but aiming? Not a big deal, especially if you're a strongish person.
I envision a sawed off shotgun to be what Mad Max has. You get a slap in the face if you impose a +2TN for that. Especially considering that shotguns by the 2060's use SOLID SLUG, not buckshot. The effect would be like firing a magnum handgun. Sure its heavy but aiming isn't going to be a problem with practice. If Dirty Hairy can do it, I can do it gods dammit. 
Maybe strength minimum 4 to fire it without TN penalties and +1 for every point below that or something. Whatever. *returns to his rock*
Posted by: Arethusa Jul 7 2004, 07:21 AM
The +2 TN isn't for a shotgun that's been sawed down to the roughly size of a large pistol. The +2 TN is basically for trying to fire an M16 with one hand.
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 7 2004, 11:11 AM
Yes, exactly. But according to the CC its the same +2TN if you're a hardliner. If you're elastic (to coin a constitution term) then its GM negotiable.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 7 2004, 02:19 PM
| QUOTE (Cursedsoul) |
| Especially considering that shotguns by the 2060's use SOLID SLUG, not buckshot. |
Who says shotguns in the 2060s don't fire buckshot? There is the "shot ammunition" for shotguns, which represents any shot, including buckshot -- although you'd get about 0.05 buckshot per square meter at long ranges with the canon dispersion.
Shotgun ammunition (like all other small arms ammunition) in SR seems to be pretty much the same stuff as we have now -- SR-physics just makes it do weird things.
It is worth noting that, AFAIK, slug ammunition for shotguns tends to recoil more than shot ammunition.
| QUOTE (Cursedsoul) |
| The effect would be like firing a magnum handgun. Sure its heavy but aiming isn't going to be a problem with practice. If Dirty Hairy can do it, I can do it gods dammit. |
Does Dirty Harry fire a sawed-off shotgun with a single hand in some movie?
I'm only aware of the Smith & Wesson 29 N-frame .44 Magnum with an 8-3/8" barrel, which weighs around 1.5kg empty. If you cut off the stock of a 20G single-barrel break-action shotgun and the barrel down to 8", I guess that's comparable. On the other hand, a pump-action 12G-3½" with a 12" barrel is still a "sawed-off shotgun", but would be hell to fire one-handed -- weighs easily near 3kg loaded, center-mass way in front of the grip, extreme recoil.
You mustn't generalize, and it's all relative. That's nice and cheesy.
Posted by: otomik Jul 7 2004, 09:24 PM
i visualize the Roomsweeper as the Thunder Five shotgun revolver (google it). you can see it briefly being used in a flashback by Spike Jonze's redneck character in Three Kings. It's not perfect but .410 is the closest to heavy pistols that you'll find in a common shotgun gauge and a revolver is the only way you're going to find something close to concealability 6 (but that's still off, but it used to be conceal 8 so...) yeah shadowrun guns are wacky as we've said a million times before.
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 8 2004, 01:05 AM
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Who says shotguns in the 2060s don't fire buckshot? There is the "shot ammunition" for shotguns, which represents any shot, including buckshot -- although you'd get about 0.05 buckshot per square meter at long ranges with the canon dispersion. Does Dirty Harry fire a sawed-off shotgun with a single hand in some movie? You mustn't generalize, and it's all relative. That's nice and cheesy. |
It says it in the main book that solid slug is the ammo of choice for shotguns. Somewhere in the combat section, if I cared enough or if it mattered I'd give you the page, but it qualifies for neither.
You need to analyze.
I made a general statement but hopefully you would have stopped to think on what else I could've meant, or that I wasn't saying it was the ONLY ammunition. The implication was solid slug ammo is the common load and shot shells aren't. I need to realize that almost no one thinks on my level (not to say anything for/against yours/mine, just that its different). My apologies if you want that.And you also need to realize that I wasn't being entirely gods damn serious. the
should have TIPPED YOU OFF TO THIS EFFECT. Ugh.Anyways the comment was in reference to dirty hairy's .357 magnum, and again, I WASN'T TRYING TO BE COMPLETELY SERIOUS. I was trying to get a general point across, you didn't analyze and by all rights you should have.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 8 2004, 03:40 AM
| QUOTE (Cursedsoul) |
| My apologies if you want that. |
I don't. It's not that I feel offended or anything, I'm not that pitiful, it's just that I'd never heard of anything that would even imply that shotgun ammunition preferenced had in any way changed in 60 years.
Also, since I haven't seen all Dirty Harry movies, I figured there might have been a time when he's fired a shotgun single-handed, so I asked. I also figured that the
would have more to do with the idea that if you see something in a movie, you should be able to do it IRL. I wanted to point out that firing a shotgun one handed, even if sawed off, would be more difficult, on average, than firing a magnum handgun -- because magnum handguns average around .41-.44 Magnum with a 6" barrel, while sawed off shotguns might average around 12G 2-3/4" with a 12" barrel. Some people might not have fully realized this based on the earlier discussion.
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 8 2004, 04:14 AM
I figured I'd pissed you off or something dreadful like that because I tend to do it. Something about how I phrase things seems to enrage people. I'd be a good motivational speaker for the government. 
While you're probably right (I have no IRL experience with the fact, only what I figure would happen) would it really be worth a +1TN change? I don't.
The problem is seemingly every rule in shadowrun outside of Matrix and Magic violates some sort of fundamental logic. I'm sure you can find the flaws there too if you possess the right knowledge. I'm one of the unfortunate people who's had firearms training (the basic target shooting stuff that most clubs offer) and actually fired them. Seems that everyone here seems to also be in the same boat. Not sure if this is relieving or alarming. Probably both.
*cries* I hate having to make the world around me make sense. 
Posted by: otomik Jul 8 2004, 12:20 PM
| QUOTE (Cursedsoul @ Jul 8 2004, 04:14 AM) |
| *cries* I hate having to make the world around me make sense. |
wasn't it the older books that quoted:
“Human beings can only bear so much reality.” - T.S. Eliot
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 8 2004, 12:45 PM
I wouldn't know but that's certainly true. Reminds me of something that (I hope) I coined. "All great sayings are life's simplest truths."
I got lucky. I can be logical and illogical at the same time. Tends to be a bit inconvenient talking to your average cup o' joe, but people like me don't attract the average.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 8 2004, 02:06 PM
| QUOTE (Cursedsoul) |
| I figured I'd pissed you off or something dreadful like that because I tend to do it. Something about how I phrase things seems to enrage people. |
Pissing me off is nothing dreadful, I do it all the time.
I don't mind silly or non-factual talk about guns as long as the people who want facts get them.| QUOTE (Cursedsoul) |
| While you're probably right (I have no IRL experience with the fact, only what I figure would happen) would it really be worth a +1TN change? I don't. |
Between which two? Between the long-barreled large caliber magnum revolver and the light, extremely short-barreled non-repeating shotgun, probably not. Between the light, extremely short-barreled non-repeating shotgun and the heavy, short-barreled repeating shotgun, quite possibly. Between the first and the last, absolutely.
Depends, of course, on who's doing the shooting, etc. For a troll, I doubt I'd be worrying too much until we get to weapons weighing in excess of 5kg at least.
[Edit]It should be noted that with "a light shotgun", I still mean something decisively more hefty than a .410. The Roomsweeper might represent a .410 revolver, but I think an 8S or 10S Damage Code shotgun should be much heftier, possibly 2-3/4" through 3-1/2" 12Gs of varying barrel length.[/Edit]
| QUOTE (Cursedsoul) |
| The problem is seemingly every rule in shadowrun outside of Matrix and Magic violates some sort of fundamental logic. |
Simple rules about real life will always violate some fundamental logic, obviously. Having a geometric moment here: It's like a triangle with Realism, Fantasy and Simplicity as the points, and I know where in there I want my games to be, pretty much.
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 8 2004, 04:07 PM
If I use your triangle as my base my desires fluctuate wildly. Generally simplicity can be sacrificed for realism and/or fantasy.
Take Wizardry 8 for example. By most CRPG (if you call a game akin to say, final fantasy an RPG that qualifies) standards its stupidly complex. You need to have a pretty firm grip on how the game operates or you'll have a tough time. However it pulls it off wonderfully, as do most of the other Wizardry games (I hear 5 really sucks, I've only played the first, can't get 6-7 to run on my DOSless OS).
Arcanum would be another game where simplicity gets kind of pushed aside. 64ish character points and all sorts of permutations. Sure like Fallout you COULD do a thousand things, but 3 or 4 are about it for functional. Still, you can mix n' match to great effect if you know what you're getting into rules wise.
I'm sure there are better examples but I don't play a lot of VGs because 99% of them fail to make me want to do more than take a dump on the head of whoever created them.
To me shadowrun is one of those games where you can go with any of those three extremes with relative ease. AD&D isn't cutting it for Realism unless you're all Middle Ages history buffs, and Vampire just ain't simple.
I don't really seem to have a point so I guess I'll just leave it at the dull nub that it is.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 8 2004, 04:16 PM
As long as we're playing Shadowrun, this is me:
| CODE |
| Fantasy Realism +------------------+ \ / \ / \ * / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \/ Simplicity |
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 8 2004, 05:33 PM
Interesting. What I want out of shadowrun really depends on my mood at the time. Most days I tend to float around the middle area, favoring fantasy/realism off and on.
What I want also depends on who I'm playing with. If I ever got enough friends for a game I'd probably not care for realism because raw uncut fun is what I'd be after. Laughing, joking, smiling, insulting, you know, fun.
Bunch of strangers as in here? More along the "top" line between realism and fantasy. Magician? Fantasy. Decker? Fantasy. Sammy? Realism.
I'm still on the learning curve of roleplaying because I get so precious little practice so simple + fantasy (IE:AD&D) is about where I'm at in terms of roleplaying. Trying to make the leap over to realism (hence, shadowrun, a world closing in on our own) because I prefer a basis for comparison.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 8 2004, 05:46 PM
Of course what I want out of Shadowrun cannot always be the same, in that respect such a triangle is silly (except as a "probability cloud" model, electron-style). But I almost always play Shadowrun with the same guys and the same campaign has been running for a long time. Also, to allow for such simple ASCII art, I decided it'd be better to vary to definitions of the arbitrary dimensions of the triangle instead of the location of my Preference Spot.
D&D, IMNSHO, is halfway down the triangle, one space off Fantasy-Simplicity line.
Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 8 2004, 06:13 PM
perhaps a line would be better? Number it like, 1000 to 0 to 1000 or something? Coordinate Grid? Ugh....this is turning into some really ugly math problem that I just don't want to look at.
AD&D, 3e at least, is foolishly simple and fantasy happy so yeah, I pretty much agree. I prefer the many dice that it uses to SR's d6's only because D6's tend to hate me.
SR has a lot more potential for interest and actually doing meaningful things. AD&D's m4d ph47 lewt mentality just doesn't jive with me very well, and a lot of campaigns degenerate into that I imagine. There are exceptions, and I actually got to be in one and it was quite fun. Of course, given the same circumstances only in SR and I'm sure I'dve died from sheer immersion into what was going on.
Posted by: Person 404 Jul 8 2004, 10:51 PM
I can buy realism being opposed to fantasy, and simplicity being opposed to realism, but simplicity opposed to fantasy?
Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)