Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Force 18 Armor --> Help Please

Posted by: Curugul Jul 7 2004, 03:35 PM

How would you deal with a PC who researched rolled and now uses a force eighteen armor spell (Said PC is a troll full hermetic magician with 18 body and high combat pool). His total armor is something like 25+ with all gear on, and he has shielding metamagic (initiate grade force 3).

Our game is a Mercenary game, aka extremely combat heavy. What poses a serious challenge for this monster?

Thanks in advance,

Curugul

Posted by: Infern0 Jul 7 2004, 03:39 PM

How about Gas weapons?

Posted by: Klothos Jul 7 2004, 03:44 PM

force 18? does he have a library/lodge @ force 18 and a spell design skill @ 18

Posted by: shadd4d Jul 7 2004, 03:45 PM

Big deal. He's asking to take a 9M or so hit everytime he casts the spell. Okay, he researched it. Doesn't mean he'll cast it immediately or everytime. Getting a sustaining focus will be 1) expensive, 2) difficult, 3) cost 18 karma. He'd better hope he didn't learn it exclusively, cause you can't stick those in a sustaining focus. Even if he does pull off the magic, he's got some glow around him, aka shoot me, I'm a mage.

Sheilding does jack against physical threats with the exception of elemental manips. Has he calculated out how his armor reduces his combat pool? Factor that in. Also remember that hardened armor doesn't stack. The armor spell doesn't create hardened armor.

With a few rules from the basic book and CC, that cuts the character down to something more managable.

Check out the thread on how to rail against a mage. Make him deal with snipers or even drones. He still has to deal with vehicles and such, which might not be all that easy. He's got a magic of 9? Doesn't mean he's up against spirits, especially if they dogpile him or attack his foci.

When in doubt, there's always missiles, rockets, gernades, and whatnot that can hose his day. Has the opposition discovered the wonders of indirect fire? If that takes out his group, then your only opposition is this troll whom you're just going to x-team into a smear.

I like the Gas ideas.

Don

Posted by: CoalHeart Jul 7 2004, 03:50 PM

A force 18 spell has a learning TN of 36. There's very very little chance he learned this spell legitly. And even if he did manage one success, he has to sit there without intteruption for 18 days straight learning it. Anything that interupts this forces him to start over with a new test.

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 7 2004, 04:05 PM

QUOTE (shadd4d)

Has he calculated out how his armor reduces his combat pool? Factor that in.

I'm pretty sure the Armor spell doesn't count towards quickness and combat pool penalties. I mean, sure as hell wouldn't make sense if it did.

QUOTE (shadd4d)

Also remember that hardened armor doesn't stack. The armor spell doesn't create hardened armor.

The problem is that 26 points of soft armor's still going to reduce absolutely anything to 2D. Even if you play with the deadliest form of overdeadly damage, that's a guaranteed soak of anything short of naval damage with 18 body, because against a TN of 2, 18 dice is an average of 15 successes. The only canon small arm capable of punching through with any power above 2 is an assault cannon, and even then, only if it's packing APDS. That's right: per canon, even rockets will break upon this troll like water on rock.

The problem with all these ideas is that any GM who's spent a few hours learning the most basic ropes can kill the most powerful of characters. Reality bends to his whim. It's not like that's hard. What's difficult is doing it in a way that doesn't make his mundane compatriots hopelessly obsolescent, much less taking on that troll with any measure of believable opposition.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 7 2004, 04:15 PM

Since the troll's existance is silly to begin with, just be silly in return. Put him up against a decent grade 3 melee adept with Pentjak-Silat 9, Improved Pentjak-Silat 9, Distance Strike, Killing Hands: Serious, and Aptitude: Pentjak-Silat. He's throwing approximately 27 dice with a base TN of 3 before his Centering: Melee metamagic technique is used.

It's now a ranged attack, meaning the troll can't counter the attack at all (at best he can dodge, but that gives him a higher TN anyway). The adept's Strength is irrelevant; at worse he's doing 2S damage and most likely 2D with a ton of extra successes the troll has to counter with his Body Test before he has a chance to stage the damage down.

But if that's too much trouble, just have a sniper make a Called Shot to bypass his armor with a high-Power weapon loaded with a Glazer round (+2 Power and +1 Damage Level against the now-unarmored opponent). Even the Armor spell is not immune to the asinine rule, and every single piece he has is completely ignored. And wouldn't you know it? Him shooting that one round before having to reload gives the rest of the team time to find cover and deal with the threat while the troll is rotting away on the street.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jul 7 2004, 04:22 PM

25 points of soft ballistic, but what's his impact? An opponent stealth adept with a tazer can do harsh things to any bum who thinks he's invincible. Especially if the stealth adept greets him right after said bum takes a shower at his own housing.

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 7 2004, 04:30 PM

Toy, don't Glazers do +2 DL against unarmored/+1 DL against armored?

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 7 2004, 04:34 PM

I'm not sure, but if memory serves its +2 Power/+1 Level against uarmored and armor is doubled against, well, armored opponents.

Posted by: FXcalibur Jul 7 2004, 04:39 PM

CC, pg38

Glazers are +2 Power.

Against unarmoured targets, +1 DL.
Against armoured targets, Power is reduced by twice highest armour rating.
Against barriers and vehicles, double barrier/armour rating.

Looks like a pretty good sniper round.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 7 2004, 04:49 PM

QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

25 points of soft ballistic, but what's his impact?

Probably only 20 - 22 points. Since the armor spell provides both kinds of protection, that is.

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 7 2004, 04:51 PM

Ah, my mistake. So, basically, they're EX-EX and flechette combined.

Regardless, problem still exists of everything short of an assault cannon with APDS not having enough power to even scratch this troll. But, as Doc pointed out, this is not a terribly sensible problem, and there's little reason to hold back the opposition.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jul 7 2004, 04:54 PM

I'm just wondering how the guy managed to hit a TN 36 to learn this legendary Armor spell. He'd have to roll on average about 45,000 dice to hit such a TN, and even then the time it would take is non-trivial.

As for how to damage something like this, well if he's got 18 body and a force 18 armor spell his buddies are all deltaware zombiies or running around with custom-built MPCP-24 decks. This is superhero-level stuff you've got here; send them up against guys taken out of comic books.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 7 2004, 05:02 PM

QUOTE (Curugul)

So... this character is in possession of/had a sufficient etiquette to acquire a rating 18 hermetic library (thats what... availability 18/7 and 324,000

... assuming it even exists at all) AND has a spell design skill of 18 (which, alone, should have cost him on the order of 194 karma after chargen assuming it was taken at 6 then given the troll racial max Intelligence of 6). In addition to this add a body of 18 (another 241 karma or so, unless he's heavily cybered). Then throw in everything else this character has improved, and we're looking at a 500+ karma character at the low end.

If the other characters are similarly powerful, and I am forced to assume they are, you should really consider retiring them. The game just isnt really designed to challenge 500 karma characters. Otherwise, your options include prototype superdrones, assault cannons or sniper rifles with apds or av rounds, extremely high force free spirits, placing battles in toxic zones, or the mainstay orbital cow strikes.

Posted by: Nikoli Jul 7 2004, 05:03 PM

Spell like that would attract lots of nasty attention. F-18 glows like the sun in most cases, astrally that is. Any and all manner of evil nasties would likely be attracted to the bum. imagine if everyone he drops suddenly starts getting up as a sheddim controlled thing-killer, and of course, since he brought it upon the party, there's no extra Karma awarded for the waste of resources.

And, I'm thinknig that witha glow like that, he's visible from space, so have fun the next time he pulls that spell on ares turf outside of a building. (orbital weapons platforms anyone?)

Posted by: Cain Jul 7 2004, 05:09 PM

Gas weapons-- the Armor spell is ineffective against gas.

Knockback. Armor does nothing to reduce the knockback of an attack. (Use Gel rounds for best effect.) Even with his high body, a high power attack will knock him flat.

Astral attacks (aka the Watcher Attack Pack™). Have spirits start attacking his focus. Win or lose, he's got to go astral to deal with them-- but once he does, he then runs into 6 force-6 watchers plus whatever other force 8-10 spirits are appropriate for your game. His physical armor now does him no good, and the Friends in Melee modifiers will chew him apart.

The Chunky Salsa effect. Get him in close quarters with a high-powered explosive.

Naval-scale Weaponry. In a merc campaign, you better believe that the tank gunners will be pointing their main guns at the glowing troll. A Vaporizer round will eat him for lunch.

Background counts and mana warps. A minor mana warp will start damaging his sustaining focus.

Don't forget about drain, either. Unless he's got a Magic of 18, he'll be taking physical drain from the spell, that can't be healed magically.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 7 2004, 05:28 PM

If all else fails, I find that dropping an office building on them works.

-karma

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 7 2004, 05:38 PM

What I'd personally do is this:
In a routine run-gone-bad (these are bound to happen when a combat mage troll thinks he's invincible) someone happens to fire an ATGM at the runners, hitting the troll with a few successes. The troll stages the 7D attack down to a Moderate and is only mildly pissed off, much to the enjoyment of the player and disbelief of the missile gunners.

People hear stories of an unstoppable troll. A nearby reserve artillery battallion puts a missile launcher on 24-7 standby in case the troll is spotted. A few blimps or tiny surveillance drones hang high in the sky, following the troll's every move. The next time the troll is 25 meters away from anything people don't want blown to bits, they fire a rigger-ridden Sea Saber at him.

You can reasonably have about 30 dice against a TN of 2 for the attack roll (ramming), and there's very little the troll can do to dodge. He'll be facing a 120D + 40 Over-Damage or so Anti-Vehicular damage.

But then my group is currently in a war-zone, so I guess I don't count. Plus I'd never let a character have a Force 18 Armor spell, for reasons mentioned above.

Posted by: Clank Jul 7 2004, 06:04 PM

What's his Sorcery? The Force might be 18, but unless his Sorcery Skill is ungodly also, he's probably walking around with a tenuous 3-4 successes. Dispel the damn thing. If it's in a focus, he's gotta replace the spell and pay the Karma again.

If it's not in a focus, then he's got +2 to any other spell he casts anyway.

If he's breaking the game, tell him. If he prefers to be a munchkin, munchkin right back. Put him up against a force 30 Manabolt (he's obviously proven that super force spells aren't THAT hard to come by).

Want to be legal about it? Anything higher than Force 4 is Illegal, so get Lonestar after him (If he can survive almost anything, then he's gotta have a reputation). They can't stop him? He becomes public enemy #1. Lonestar requsitions the use of a battleship to stop the nation threat. Armor, Schmarmor; he can't soak 1L N. He should feel very proud to be the most wanted Man in SR history and you've given him a story to tell his children (b/c telling any hardcore SR fan will just get him a 'WTF? Force 18??? What are you, stupid?!' response).

Get him addicted to drugs/BTL. Oh how the mighty have fallen... AND you have an after school special. A game with a message... aren't you the quintessential GM. :)

Armor is a personal barrier around your body, but what does that mean? it stops combat stuf, but what if he tries to pick up a fork? Will it slide across the table? Will he ever eat again?

I'm assuming you're trying to find a noble, game response to a very ignoble action. You'll be hard pressed to find one. Your best bet is to tell the player they've broken the game.

Posted by: DarusGrey Jul 7 2004, 06:56 PM

Send him up against a troll adept with maxed strength, bioware enhanced strength,
titanium bone-lacing etc, adept power strength..and strength boost.

15strength+4 lacing+5 levels of adept power + 4 of bio/cyberware and give him strength boost of 10 levels.

Don't forget Killing hands D!.

28-38D unarmed combat. Even that badass can't stop that.

Posted by: BenLarkin Jul 7 2004, 07:09 PM

Send a Troll Go-Gang after him with some chains and a pack of stim and trauma patches!

The Troll gang tackles the mighty mage down and slaps him with patches until all of his Magic goes away.

Posted by: Backgammon Jul 7 2004, 07:13 PM

QUOTE

Dispel the damn thing. If it's in a focus, he's gotta replace the spell and pay the Karma again.

What? No he doesn't. Where'd you read that??

Posted by: Clank Jul 7 2004, 07:33 PM

QUOTE (Backgammon)

What? No he doesn't. Where'd you read that??

Whoops, misread that; I thought you had to re-bind the focus per casting.

Posted by: Sammiel Jul 7 2004, 07:34 PM

overwhelm him with successes. aside from using the asinine called shot to avoid armor rule, a physad sniper lightly cybered and highly initiated can achieve a TN of 2, skill 10, improved rifles 10, combat pool + whatever other blah that adds dice, avg 28 dice we'll say, 23 successes.

so 14D from a barret, +23 successes

23-15 is 8, so hes taking a Deadly wound + 8 overflow. alternatively, you could instead fire from a sport rifle.

Leaving him with a Deadly wound and 6 overflow

then fire again, which the barret cant do.

TN of 2 again cause of a customized grip, 21 dice

18 successes, -15 soak, leaves 3

11 more boxes of dmg

Assuming my math is right. now, admittedly, I didn't add the trolls combat pool for dodging or soaking, but good bet he would blow it all on the first shot, assuming he had a combat pool of 7, he would still take a deadly wound with 2 overflow, leaving him with no combat pool for the second attack. I assume he would choose to soak instead of dodge since the TN is lower.

Given that he managed to research a force 18 spell, I dont think an assassin that skilled is unrealistic for the game.

Although a simple sleight of hand or magic fingers will leave this troll sans his focus.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 7 2004, 07:51 PM

First off, as pointed out above unless this is a 500+ karma game so far the GM flubbed in letting him have the spell, as he needed a force 18 lodge and a level 18 spell design skill, which is the killer.

The problem is also that shadowrun combat breaks down at skills that high. With that many dice either you take nothing, or roll bad and get annihilated. It becomes more and more binary assuming you dont cheat at dice rolls. Retire the campaign.

Posted by: Curugul Jul 7 2004, 08:08 PM

Thanks for all the great responses, most were very helpful.

I request clarification on one point:

QUOTE

I believe he was under the impression one could buy spell formula's, such as force 18 armor, as per the pricing/rules on page 305 of the SR3 Main book... Is this not the case? Could anyone explain the spell-design rules exactly? We always played you could purchase spells as per those rules. Are shamans ruled differently than hermetics for a force 18 armor?

Thanks in advance,

Curugul

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 7 2004, 08:13 PM

It depends on who you ask. Most people think high force (> force 8 or so) spells are pretty hard to come by on the open market. Also, once he gets the forumulae he has to learn the spell with the TN 36 test in a lodge of a rating equal to or greater than the spell rating (also a rather impressive feat).

Posted by: Apathy Jul 7 2004, 08:26 PM

easy ways to address this:

damage from crashes ignore armor
damage from falling ignores armor (I think)
gas attacks ignore armor
viral and bacterial attacks ignore armor
the toxic power sludge engulf ignores armor
the air elemental power air engulf ignores armor
narcojets ignore armor
DMSO rounds ignore armor (I think)
the knockdown rules ignore armor
critter/spirit powers like confusion, and fear ignore armor, and aren't effected by sheilding
a spell this high will attract spirits like crazy
strain3 fab would love to eat this thing, along with the mage
astral attacks ignore armor (if you can get him to project or perceive
astral attacks against the sustaining focus (the physad with astral perception, smashing blow, and distance strike)

Posted by: CoalHeart Jul 7 2004, 08:32 PM

QUOTE (Curugul)

Sure you can buy the Formula. But that doesn't mean you can learn from it.
And no. Shamans are not treated differently. They can buy formula from talismongers or other shamans of the same totem.

No they're not ruled differently for the armor.

Spell Design rules are explained in the MITS.

For mages you need Skill = Force AND Sorcery Library Rating = Force.

For Shamans it's different. You just need a Lodge = Force.

My advice to you, even though I do run a semi high powered game. Take the spell away. Refund his money (if he bought it) Tell him to do the etiquette rolls infront of you to buy the library, and spell formula. And then make him roll a 36 with whatever dice he has for spell learning.

I believe you just made a mistake thinking Buying a spell is enough. But when in reality you need to buy it (or make it) and then Learn it.

Posted by: The Jopp Jul 7 2004, 08:33 PM

Why not have some LEGAL action taken against him.

1. Does he have a LICENSE for this spell (All spells above F2 are illegal and require a license)

2. Levitate. Levitate him fifteen floors up, hell, just levitate his left foot ans spin him around and around and around and around REALLY fast. Ooh, I'm getting dizzy.

3. Have an enemy mage mindprobe him for that spell and let them face an opposing team all with F18 armour spells.

4. Wards, wards, wards wards, wards and MORE wards.

5. Have Mr Harvey Orror pay him a visit.

6. Have a water elemental give him an enema. (Yes, due to his silliness he deserves it)

7. Use "Fashion" modified with a LOS to give him a non see through basic clothing or shape him like something out of Versace collection.

8. Drop a Cow on him.

9. Give him Amnesia, he just forgot all his spells and have to relearn them all over again (one dice roll would be enough but it is STILL that little killer with a TN of 36)

10. This is too horrible to mention but it includes Britney Spear songs, 50kg of butter, a padded room and the entire collection of encyclopedia britannia from 2000. And the room will be locked with the offending person thrown inside it.

Ah hell, I'll mention it anyway. The PLAYER must sit in that room listening to ALL of Britney Spears albums covered in butter and may only leave once he has memorized the entire collection of books.

THEN the same procedure will be taken with the CHARACTER. This will ensure that the player has learned to ROLEPLAY.

Posted by: Cain Jul 7 2004, 09:21 PM

QUOTE

Ahhh! Light dawns!

Yes, those rules are for obtaining the spell formula. However, he still needs to make a roll to learn the spell-- which, as has been pointed out, requires a roll of TN 36, followed by expenditure of karma. He also spends 9 days per attempt to learn the spell.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 7 2004, 09:51 PM

QUOTE (Curugul @ Jul 7 2004, 08:08 PM)

Thanks for all the great responses, most were very helpful.

I request clarification on one point:

QUOTE

That was based off your opening post which stated:

QUOTE

How would you deal with a PC who researched rolled and now uses a force eighteen armor spell

(bold mine) Which indicated he researched the spell, not purchased the spell formula.

For a troll to even find that spell to buy the formula is a bit impressive considering the troll's charisma max and the TN he needs in etiquitte to find it, and he cannot default on the etiquitte roll since the TN would be higher than 8.

He still then had to have a force 18 lodge, another impressive etiquitte roll for the troll, which is now a pair of 18's I believe in etiquitte, although circumstances can drop that.

You cannot just go purchase things like that. There's rules for aquiring them.

It's the 36 on the roll to learn the spell that I find hard to believe, but even regardless of that, you're pretty well screwed as the GM. Games with that many dice and karma tend to fall apart threat wise because of the sheer number of dice rolled.

Bollom line IMHO: Gm is screwed, and in more ways that one. start a new game at a reasonable power level.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jul 7 2004, 09:59 PM

I notice many comments about "high karma level games" and other assumptions based on what people associate as being neccessary precursors to a force 18 spell.

So, I will ask:
What's the sorcery skill?
What's the karma pool?
What's the spell design skill?
What's the ettiquette?
What's the initiation grade and the magic rating?

I've seen a roll of 36 on 4 stealth dice. Although it does require an obscene number of dice to be statistically reliable, that doesn't mean it can't happen with less.

Posted by: FlakJacket Jul 7 2004, 10:12 PM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

But if that's too much trouble, just have a sniper make a Called Shot to bypass his armor

Can you use a called shot to bypass armour spells? I always thought they were a kind of 360 degree bubble as it were that fully surrounded you- thus not leaving an opening to call a shot to.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 7 2004, 10:27 PM

The omnipotent Called Shot rules care nothing for logic. There is no armor it cannot bypass.

Posted by: Apathy Jul 7 2004, 10:30 PM

QUOTE

Can you use a called shot to bypass armour spells?

There's a long thread about called shots that discusses this. I think that the general consensus was that called shots shouldn't be able to bypass total coverage armor like the armor spell, but that a literal interpretation of the FAQ would allow it.

Incidentally, this same literal interpretation would allow you to destroy a main battle tank with a called shot from a heavy pistol.

Posted by: ShadowGhost Jul 7 2004, 10:37 PM

QUOTE (Sammiel @ Jul 7 2004, 07:34 PM)

overwhelm him with successes. aside from using the asinine called shot to avoid armor rule,

It's an Armor Spell - it provides 100% armor to your entire body - it can't be bypassed with a called shot.

Chemical weapons, via injection, DMSO (contact), inhalation. Seven-7 is a 10D. Contact or or inhalation. Green Ring is 8S.

A few DMSO splash grenades loaded with Seven-7 and some with Green Ring-8 and this troll is toast - if the troll doesn't completely dodge, he is exposed and must resist the damage with body only, and armor does nothing to reduce the power unless it is Hazmat gear.

Posted by: Adarael Jul 8 2004, 12:20 AM

Well, it looks like most of my basic responses have been covered, yeah. But there's one that should scare the bejesus outa anyone - essence drain.

Have fun losing magic rating, buddy.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 8 2004, 12:21 AM

Yes, generally speaking, "researching" and "buying" are different things. Hence my confusion.

Some questions:

1 What is the troll's etiquette?
2 What is his willpower?
3 What is his sorcery?
4 How does he have a body of 18?
5 How many people in the world do you think have a spell design skill of 18?

Posted by: Beast of Revolutions Jul 8 2004, 01:57 AM

A force 18 armor spell should be perfectly balanced if you are using all the rules. He should have a wizmungous spell design skill and lodge/library, and there are plenty of ways to circumvent armor, not least of which is chemical weapons. Hoever, don't go all cheap on him by having a whole squad of enemies somehow be armed with squirt guns. At least have an enemy realize he's using an armor spell or is otherwise indestructible before breaking out the gas grenades. Last but not least, there is always high exlosives, vehicle scale weapons, and the chunky salsa effect.

Posted by: tisoz Jul 8 2004, 02:25 AM

Due to the upgrading gear rules, A starting character could have a rating 18 lodge for 9000 nuyen in less than three weeks. He only needs to buy 3 rating 6 lodge materials and spend 18 days setting it up. The rules are in SR3, pages 166-167.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 8 2004, 02:25 AM

QUOTE (Arethusa)

The only canon small arm capable of punching through with any power above 2 is an assault cannon, and even then, only if it's packing APDS. That's right: per canon, even rockets will break upon this troll like water on rock.

No, rockets will not break upon him. One Great Dragon ATGM and he will be soaking ~7D. Averaging three successes? That gets it down to S damage? Well, remember that whoever's rolling will be tossing an extra four dice for missile intelligence before combat pool.

Also, a shotgun with shot rounds will take him if used by someone skillful. 2S plus twelve to fourteen successes should deal at least a Light most of the time.

~J

Posted by: Cain Jul 8 2004, 06:43 AM

Almost forgot the big one. Net Guns. The large Net rounds will take down your troll, armor or no.

Posted by: Apathy Jul 8 2004, 03:02 PM

I'm not sure if anyone's brought this up, but he's also got to be able to cast it. Assuming that he's not really a great dragon in disguise, he's going to be taking very high level physical drain every time he turns it on.

And doesn't a sustaining focus have to be at least as high as the spell it holds? Can you say "focus addiction"? He'll lose all his magic in no time flat. If I mis-remembered this, and he's got this mega spell in a dinky little focus, then just destroy the focus going through a ward, or attack it with spirits, or whatever.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 8 2004, 03:50 PM

At Grade 3 and assuming no Magic Loss, he'd have to have some other focus on at the same time as the Force 18 sustaining focus in order to worry about Focus Addiction. It only kicks on when you exceed twice your Magic in total Force. It's probably why he "stopped" at Force 18.

Likewise, a Drain Code of 11M Physical, while annoying, isn't really that bad for a munchkin since he's doubtlessly always going to keep it activated (who cares about the blue glow, right?). If he has a Trauma Damper, he really only needs two successes anyway, and while unreliable, it can happen when rolling in excess of 18 dice (remember, he can put a bunch of Sorcery dice into the Drain Resistance part since only one success is required to cast Armor).

Posted by: Apathy Jul 8 2004, 04:27 PM

Good point, thanks MT.

My opinion:
If the GM was mistaken about the rules for acquiring and learning high level spells, he should retroactively take the spell and focus back, refunding the charater's money and karma and allowing the PC a chance to spend it on something else.

If the GM wants to let him keep the spell and screw him over anyway, then ram him with a drone or gas him.

If the players are actually at a level where they could legitimately acquire and use spells of this magnitude, then he should consider retiring the characters.

Posted by: Sammiel Jul 8 2004, 05:17 PM

QUOTE (ShadowGhost)

It's an Armor Spell - it provides 100% armor to your entire body - it can't be bypassed with a called shot.

as people pointed out before you even posted, yes, yes it can.

Posted by: Core Dump Jul 8 2004, 07:26 PM

QUOTE (tisoz)

Just buying 9000 nuyen of material is enough to get a Lodge Rating 18 (18 * 500=9000), you don't have to get 3 times the material for rating 6 lodges, as it costs the same.

You'd still need 18 days to set it up, and considering that you are setting up a Rating 18(!!) lodge, you'll be a shining beacon in the astral space for 18 days(and beyond)... not always a good idea if you ask me.

Posted by: shadd4d Jul 8 2004, 09:25 PM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

But look at what is happening if you shot him with a naval weapon. Even if his armor reduces it to 2D, he'd still have to roll 5s due to wound penalties.

Still, he'd be pretty obvious as a mage (if he has a trauma damper, then he'd have to have geased it, meaning he's stuck with his geas).

Don

Posted by: Dice Jul 8 2004, 11:08 PM

QUOTE (shadd4d)

But look at what is happening if you shot him with a naval weapon. Even if his armor reduces it to 2D, he'd still have to roll 5s due to wound penalties.

Wound Penalties don't apply to body rolls to resist damage...

Posted by: shadd4d Jul 8 2004, 11:33 PM

True (I forgot that). Still, Mr. Super Troll is also slower than molasses in January. He probably doesn't have a high quickness, i.e. a slow reaction plus he's only rolling 1d6 initiative or he'd suffer magic loss with a sustaining focus and a +X reaction spell.

He's slow. Multiple people in Melee could beat him up. When in doubt, toss lots of goons at him. He'll go down, it just might be a bit difficult.

Don

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 8 2004, 11:46 PM

If he's Grade 3 he could easily have Quickening or Tattoo Magic, thus still have a high Initiative score. He's also a mage, so he can summon a swarm (albeit 4 at most unless he spent a lot of Karma raising his Charisma or bought some Edges) of spirits to handle melee for him.

Posted by: tisoz Jul 9 2004, 01:34 AM

QUOTE (Core Dump)

QUOTE (tisoz @ Jul 7 2004, 09:25 PM)

Glad you agree. I wanted to break it down into standard starting limits for ratings on equipment. It also plainly explains why the character didn't need to roll an 18 on an Etiquette test to acquire the materials. Your example would have BitBasher calling for that TN 18 roll.

QUOTE

considering that you are setting up a Rating 18(!!) lodge, you'll be a shining beacon in the astral space for 18 days (and beyond)... not always a good idea if you ask me.

Considering you can set it up in about the space of a normal size room, and considering that mundane walls are opaque in astral space, no one is likely to notice any shining beacon. Unless you make it a point to pass through every building just to see if it happens to be warded or contain an astral barrier or lodge. Not the smartest thing to do.

Really, if the shaman is worried about attracting astral attention, and my shaman would probably feel more comfortable sleeping and projecting from within a huge astral barrier, he could dismantle the lodge when he is finished using it. The lodge materials are reusable, so he's only out the set-up time.

All in all, I think the shining, astral beacon idea sucks. The benefits outweigh the hazerds, IMO. Saefty from roving spirits/imps/shedim/astral projecting doofus's, a barrier to all those things and ritual sorcery/tracking, a bonus for creating formula, and a few others. I don't think it's illegal to have a high force lodge either, unless I missed something. They are basically immovable astral shelters.

Posted by: ShadowGhost Jul 9 2004, 02:11 AM

QUOTE (Sammiel @ Jul 8 2004, 05:17 PM)

QUOTE (ShadowGhost @ Jul 7 2004, 10:37 PM)

It's an Armor Spell - it provides 100% armor to your entire body - it can't be bypassed with a called shot.

as people pointed out before you even posted, yes, yes it can.

Only if your GM has is a retard with no absolutely no common sense.

The bypass Armor called shot is is vague, and should have been re-worded to say "bypass worn armor."

Otherwise I sink aircraft carriers with my 4L pistol, calling a shot to bypass armor.

If that's the kind of game you want to run, go right ahead.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 9 2004, 02:17 AM

QUOTE (ShadowGhost)

Otherwise I sink aircraft carriers with my 4L pistol, calling a shot to bypass armor.

No you don't, because anything with a Hull rating will negate that even without any armor whatsoever.

~J

Posted by: Arethusa Jul 9 2004, 02:53 AM

QUOTE (ShadowGhost)

Only if your GM has is a retard with no absolutely no common sense.

The bypass Armor called shot is is vague, and should have been re-worded to say "bypass worn armor."

I assume, then, you have no objection when I pull out a handgun and inexplicably bypass your full body suit of FFBA or military armor?

Posted by: Necro Tech Jul 9 2004, 03:14 AM

QUOTE (tisoz)

QUOTE (Core Dump @ Jul 8 2004, 02:26 PM)

QUOTE (tisoz @ Jul 7 2004, 09:25 PM)

Just a quick clarification. The rules for upgrading equipment state that you use the availability and street index for the rating you want and you subtract the orginal cost paid. The availabilty of a force 18 shamic lodge is 18/24 hrs and cost 9000

. The same goes for elemental conjuring materials. You want a force 10 fire elemental? You pay 10000

and the availability is 10/24 hrs. You can't buy 10 units of force one materials to duck the harsh availabilty roll. Unless of course you are trying to summon 10 force one elementals.

Note: This is not my opinion. This was in response to my question at shadowrun info when I was playing a conjurer oh so many moons ago.

Posted by: tisoz Jul 9 2004, 03:22 AM

Sounds like a FAQ answer.

I'm just going by the example on page 167 of the BBB.

Posted by: xizor Jul 9 2004, 03:45 AM

QUOTE

I assume, then, you have no objection when I pull out a handgun and inexplicably bypass your full body suit of FFBA or military armor?

my only objection would be geting shot.

Posted by: Cain Jul 9 2004, 03:47 AM

You know, I almost forgot about this...

The Armor spell is halved by APDS and AV ammo. Since he's running a merc campaign, anything autofire can get through.

Posted by: Necro Tech Jul 9 2004, 04:01 AM

QUOTE (tisoz)

Sounds like a FAQ answer.

I'm just going by the example on page 167 of the BBB.

It was. The example only mentions cost and thats why I asked. It seemed a glaring hole in the availability rules.

Posted by: Sammiel Jul 9 2004, 06:16 AM

QUOTE (ShadowGhost)

I don't feel that those rules should work against the armor spell, or against a suit of security or military armor.

I have no compunctions using the rule as written against someone who cares little enough about my game to make a troll with a force 18 armor spell.

Posted by: snowRaven Jul 9 2004, 09:42 AM

QUOTE (Necro Tech)

QUOTE (tisoz)

Sounds like a FAQ answer.

I'm just going by the example on page 167 of the BBB.

It was. The example only mentions cost and thats why I asked. It seemed a glaring hole in the availability rules.

Note on pg.166 it does say that the shaman can gather the materials himself, and pay a flat rate of 500¥ per rating point for the search. No availability rules apply here, canon wise. It's up to the Gm to decide how long such a search takes, however., or any other details. For a rating 18 lodge, i'd use the exotic materials rules from enchanting I think.

But if he's buying the lodge, then the availability should be 18, even if he's upgrading from a rating 17 lodge. Even without the FAQ it's just common sense - otherwise, there's no need to have the varying availability on things with ratings.

Posted by: Apathy Jul 9 2004, 02:16 PM

QUOTE

Otherwise I sink aircraft carriers with my 4L pistol, calling a shot to bypass armor.

Actually, no. You can't even destroy my unarmored VW Beetle with a 4L pistol, because vehicles automatically reduce the damage level of weapons by 1. But you could destroy a tank with a 6M SMG or a 9MHeavy Pistol.

I agree that the rule sucks, and most GMs will house-rule around it. I was just pointing out that if you wanted to be a literal 'rules lawyer' the rules say that it works this way.

Posted by: ShadowGhost Jul 9 2004, 02:38 PM

QUOTE (Apathy)

QUOTE

Otherwise I sink aircraft carriers with my 4L pistol, calling a shot to bypass armor.

You have heard of staging?

I was being a smartass. To "bypass" something means to avoid it, or go around.

FFBA doesn't protect your face (it has a hood). Therefore, you can bypass it with a called shot to the face, *if* you can see it (i.e. sneaking up from behind - forget a face shot unless they turn around)

Military Armor is full body protection, meaning there's no holes or gaps in the armor to bypass.

Armor spell has no gaps in it, it creates a glowing field around the target of the spell. IMHO, this means you can't bypass it unless you have teleporting bullets.

There are several rules that if you follow 100% literally, make little or no sense. This is why the gamemakers themselves say if you don't like the rules, feel free to change or throw them out.

One case in point - I asked my GM if I could make a called shot to bypass armor AND stage damage DOWN one level, instead of bypass armor, or stage up as per normal rules, for the purposes of disarming an opponent (shooting a gun out of their hand).

It's not "canon" but it makes sense. If they're wearing FFBA and I want to shoot a gun out of their hand, bypassing armor is no longer an option, as FFBA includes gloves.

Posted by: Apathy Jul 9 2004, 02:55 PM

I'm not arguing with you. If you look at my prior post, I'm saying the same thing:

QUOTE

I think that the general consensus was that called shots shouldn't be able to bypass total coverage armor like the armor spell, but that a literal interpretation of the FAQ would allow it.

This whole issue's already been beaten to death in the Called Shots thread. Rather than hijack this thread, if we feel any need to discuss it any more we should go there.

Ignoring the debatable called shots, we've got the following options for bypassing/negating the armor spell:

crashes
falling
gas attacks
viral and bacterial attacks
sludge engulf (the toxic power)
air engulf (the air elemental power)
narcojets
DMSO rounds
the knockdown rules
critter/spirit powers like confusion, essence drain and fear
astral attacks

What have I left out?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 9 2004, 02:59 PM

SSMs.

Posted by: Apathy Jul 9 2004, 03:00 PM

SSM? What are those?

Posted by: ShadowGhost Jul 9 2004, 03:13 PM

Fire attacks that cook off ammo and explosives.

QUOTE

If ammo/grenades/explosives cook off, "A character wearing any such material will suffer damage as if he/she took a point blank weapon hit. Armor does not reduce this damage, but combat pool can be used to resist the damage.

Ignite - set clothing/armor/character on fire - 6M. 1/2 Impact does protect against this, but the power increases by +1 per turn.
Flamethrower and Fireball - even if the Troll completely negates any damage from the primary attack, the secondary effects can still still cook off ammo and explosives, again completely negating armor.

Flamethrowers - same effects

White Phosphorus grenades - ditto (and burns for 15 combat turns to boot, and has a 15M blast radius, and 14M base damage, against 1/2 impact (even with 25 Impact, they now only have 12 Impact to reduce power). Grenade Launcher with Smartlink 2 - TN to hit is 2s, and fire twice a turn until cremation is complete.

Incediary Grenades. ditto.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 9 2004, 03:14 PM

Surface to Surface Missiles. The aforementioned 120 Deadly + Lots Over-Damage.

Posted by: Cain Jul 9 2004, 06:55 PM

Netguns.
APDS/AV autofire.
Naval Weaponry.
Chunky Salsa.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 10 2004, 02:01 AM

A self-important human once said that a cigar is just a cigar. That may be true, but in the case of the SPNKR, what you've got is one majorly explosive cigar.

~J

Posted by: Dice Jul 11 2004, 10:06 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

A self-important human once said that a cigar is just a cigar. That may be true, but in the case of the SPNKR, what you've got is one majorly explosive cigar.

Are you thinking of Rudyard Kipling?

"A woman is just a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke".

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 11 2004, 10:34 PM

I misquoted.

QUOTE

A self-important human once said "… sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." This may be so, but in the case of the SPNKR you've got one majorly explosive cigar.

The self-important human was Sigmud Freud, explaining that his cigar smoking did not express an oral fixation and thus latent homosexuality, despite being clearly phallic.

~J

Posted by: OurTeam Jul 12 2004, 08:46 AM

Consider a magician who rolls 24 dice in each attempt to learn a Force 18 spell, and makes one attempt every 18 days. After 10 years of effort, doing nothing else, he'll still have less than a 10% chance of knowing the spell.

Here is a previous discussion of the number of http://jive.dumpshock.com/default/thread.jsp?forum=1&thread=8066

Posted by: KosherPickle Jul 12 2004, 04:40 PM

QUOTE (BenLarkin)

Send a Troll Go-Gang after him with some chains and a pack of stim and trauma patches!

The Troll gang tackles the mighty mage down and slaps him with patches until all of his Magic goes away.

Now this...this is funny. You all could learn from this one.