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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Gel/Stun Rounds and Shotgun Perception TN

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 8 2004, 08:52 PM

I got to thinking just now about shotguns and their usefulness for a character concept I was thinking about. Shotguns, clubs (for using shotgun in melee), and pistols.

I was looking at the gel and stun rounds, and the shotgun sound suppression. It counts as full autofire and I don't agree with this for these rounds. -6TN to notice for a non-lethal round? I don't think so.

I'm sure most of us have heard a real live shotgun fired. Its loud as loud can be, but I've also seen the movies and documentaries where they use stun shells/bean bag bullets and listened to the sound. It just ISNT THAT GODS AWFUL LOUD.

I was thinking that instead of -6/-4 for naked/suppressed it should be brought down a peg to burstfire and become -4/-2.

I don't see the point in penalizing someone THAT heavily for using non-lethal rounds, especially when they logically don't make that much of a ruckus.

On a related note: Does anyone honestly enforce the crapola Defiance T-250 rules? Specifically I'm talking about the "oh the shortbarrelled version somehow loses a bleedin' damage level in the translation" -1 power is acceptable I suppose. -1DL can kiss my ass.

How tough can it be to simply cut the barrel and calibrate it in a shop? You lose a couple points of power but the DL should stay the same.

If not that's okay I suppose. A 4 conceal SA shotgun with no underbarrel mount is fine considering I'd be using it as a club. Speaking of which, what would you say the damage code is? I was thinking normal club, 1 reach and Str+1M stun damage.

I want to find a use for shotguns.

I suppose I can just take a Ruger 950, cut the barrel, and have a 4 conceal, 9S weapon. Remove the scope if at all possible for a total of 5 conceal. Hell, maybe even another +1conceal if I cut the stock off too. It'd be like, a really ugly rifle but with a potential 6 conceal and maybe even the rights to a holster that's kind of digusting.

Basically I want high power non-lethal takedown ability that can double as a melee weapon for when I've just gotta get up close and personal.

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jul 8 2004, 09:18 PM

if you cut the barrel on a rifle you get less range and less damage, so it wouldnt be a 9S weapon anymore

i dont see anything wrong with shotguns, and i dont thin kstun rounds are any quieter than a regular shotgunshell

Posted by: Modesitt Jul 8 2004, 10:37 PM

QUOTE

On a related note: Does anyone honestly enforce the crapola Defiance T-250 rules? Specifically I'm talking about the "oh the shortbarrelled version somehow loses a bleedin' damage level in the translation" -1 power is acceptable I suppose. -1DL can kiss my ass.

That's what the Cannon Companion is for.

Pg 83 CC. You get heavy pistol ranges, max choke of 6, and -1 power for going sawed-off, but +2 conceal. Since the Defiance T-250 has a base conceal of 4, you get 6 conceal for sawing off its barrel.

If your GM will let you do absolutely anything listed as canon, you can have a shotgun with 8 conceal by abusing the gun design rules.

Posted by: xizor Jul 8 2004, 11:46 PM

for using a shotgun as a club in meele i think that you would use the same stats as a rifle butt, reach 1 (str +2) m stun damage with a possible +1 for meele hardening

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 9 2004, 12:03 AM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

I want to find a use for shotguns.

Then be an adept, use a smartchoke and rangefinder, and pack only shot and stun shells. With some maneuvering, you can be hitting with an average of sixteen successes on base 2S damage.

~J

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 9 2004, 12:05 AM

Find a use for shotguns? You're joking right? There amongst the most deadly weapons in the game.

Posted by: kevyn668 Jul 9 2004, 12:21 AM

A use? Point it at someone and pull the trigger.

As for the Defiance Rules...I opt for the power level loss. If you want to screw the whole thing, saw off the stock instead.

And there is a (out of date) precedant for a Conceal 8 shotgun: The Remington Roomsweeper. Of course now it has grown less concealable and even more nebulous than before. It seems to be a semi-auto, pump action shotgun...strange.

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 9 2004, 08:29 AM

I imagine you can fire and pump at the same time for the roomsweeper.

Sorry, perhaps I need to elaborate. I want to find an every day use for shotguns. They are stupidly loud which eliminates their use as a normal choice. This plus the fact that they aren't terribly concealable makes it not a terribly good idea to try and walk around town.

Conceal 6 is enough to not really be noticed by the average shmuck, conceal 9 under a longcoat even better.

And just how is it possible to get a conceal 8 shotgun?

DT250 is conceal 4. Sawed off its 6. You can't saw off a sawed-off shotgun for another 2 conceal. At most you can get a +1 for the stock being removed, ala Bonny and Clyde. What Clyde used was a sawed off, stockless shotgun. He then took a leather strap and nailed one end to the top and bottom pieces of the sawed off stock (there was still enough to do this), creating a U shape. He could put his arm through this, and thus, have a shotgun hanging from his shoulder. He was a short man I think, so that's why he did it. A bit of practice and bam, you've got a quickdraw shotgun of sorts.

As for a sawed off rifle not being 9S anymore, if I go with the canon barrel reduction its still 9S. Frankly I'd go with -1 or 2 power, but still, I'd get a conceal 4 7S rifle which is for all intents and purposes, a big ass pistol considering it has no underbarrel mount. Minus the stock and you could probably have something akin to the .223FMJ pistol that Fallout 1/2 have. Still use rifles skill for game balance reasons, but that's not too shabby considering its SA, and can be silenced like a pistol for no TN mod to perception.

And if you don't think there isn't a huge difference you need to go to a shooting range, listen to a shotgun firing normal rounds and then listen to a shotgun fire bean bag bullets. There is a considerable difference. I'm not really sure how much of one for shadowrun.

Anyways, I also want to use a shotgun for the shot shells. I read them and decided that it can potentially be really useful.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 9 2004, 11:59 AM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

and can be silenced like a pistol for no TN mod to perception.

Which is oh so quiet, being as someone with barely the intelligence to tie their shoes (INT 1) will notice that half of the time.

~J

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 9 2004, 01:15 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of in a building. That silenced pistol isn't going to send guards from the third floor rushing to the first. That shotgun blast will.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 9 2004, 02:08 PM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

And if you don't think there isn't a huge difference you need to go to a shooting range, listen to a shotgun firing normal rounds and then listen to a shotgun fire bean bag bullets. There is a considerable difference. I'm not really sure how much of one for shadowrun.

In other words, bean bags have far smaller a powder charge than normal rounds, is what you're saying? Makes sense. It also makes sense for all non-lethal ammunition -- even a 30grain, 7.62mm rubber bullet might do serious damage if you fired it at 4000+fps.

But there isn't much scaling allowed, when a suppressed single gunshot is more difficult to hear only by a margin of two. Assuming that destructive frequency suppressors are somewhat effective in the 2060s and sound-absorbing materials are available (and they damn well should by then), you can expect 30-40dB volume reduction from many suppressors. I'm a bit sceptical about a 20dB reduction in sound volume between a shotgun firing shot and one firing riot control ammunition.

Still, I'd change my mind if I were to see some data about sound volume differences between lethal and non-lethal ammunition with various firearms. I've never fired anything but FMJs and blanks, so my personal experience is useless here.

Isn't a shotgun "Single Gunshot" for Perception purposes, ie exactly as likely to be heard as any other firearm? What am I missing? And you can suppress it, can you not? I remember from earlier discussions that, IRL, suppressing a shotgun when firing shot is possible, so bring that up with your GM.

Although, since shot (and stun ammunition) for shotguns is already so insanely powerful in SR, I personally wouldn't allow it without also changing the Choke rules.

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 9 2004, 02:39 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Isn't a shotgun "Single Gunshot" for Perception purposes, ie exactly as likely to be heard as any other firearm? What am I missing? And you can suppress it, can you not? I remember from earlier discussions that, IRL, suppressing a shotgun when firing shot is possible, so bring that up with your GM.

Although, since shot (and stun ammunition) for shotguns is already so insanely powerful in SR, I personally wouldn't allow it without also changing the Choke rules.

If you look on page 103 of the CC you'll find the shotgun suppression rules.

If the shotgun fires only in single action/shot mode and you use SLUG ammunition, you can mount a sound suppressor.

This precludes the use of choke rules because they only apply to SHELL rounds such as the stun rounds in the CC.

It also says below it that a shotgun is the aural equivolent of full auto fire.

Page 231 of SR3 sets the base perception TN at 4 I believe. The next page has a table of modifiers.

Single gunshot (definitely a pistol, maybe a rifle) is -2
Burst Fire is -4
Full Auto is -6.

I imagine that a shotgun firing burst fire would count as a grenade, which is -8.

Like I've said, I've heard a shotgun firing shell rounds at a target. Its comparable to a magnum, which I heard the same day (indeed it was right next to the shotgun). Even with proper headphones it hurt my ears quite a lot.

Thus a normal round is definitely really easy to hear. A stun round from what I've heard on documentaries/in movies/etc is a hell of a lot less loud.

Its not worth -6. I think -4 would be a better idea, and I'm curious as to what the rest of you think.

So anyways this means I'd basically use a Defiance T-250 for a conceal 4, 8S stun attack because I'd need to use capsule or gel rounds. Probably capsule because they cost a buck a piece, 1/10th a gel round's price and I'm sure I can just empty them or fill them with water or whatever. Doesn't really matter. I'd also get the ability to use like, pepper punch which is STILL cheaper than a gel round and really potent.

8S stun + 12L stun isn't too shabby. Fire two single action and that's 8S stun, 8S stun, 12M stun. They'd breathe in the vapors in the time it takes the drug to activate on my next turn so I don't see a problem with its inhalation vector applying.

What I'm aiming for is ability to use this in a building. minimum TN2 means anyone firing an unsilenced weapon is going to notify their target that they've been shot at. However "same floor" applies a +4TN mod to the test.

A silenced pistol is TN4 to notice and TN8 for some guy on the floor. Say I get -4 base for the shotgun and with the suppressor get that down to -2. TN2 and TN6 isn't bad at all.

I don't want people on the third floor rushing down to see what happened on the first. I could use a rifle for a more silent attack, but that's not as cool and like I said before I want to find a use for shotguns.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 9 2004, 02:45 PM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

It also says below it that a shotgun is the aural equivolent of full auto fire.

Weird. Here's some http://keepandbeararms.com/downloads/SoundAdvice.PDF I found while looking around on the net. It looks like heavy pistol ammunition can be louder than shotgun slugs.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 9 2004, 02:55 PM

Thanks Tinker, that's what I thought. Shotguns should absolutely not be any louder than (sporting) rifles, anyway. They should be Single Gunshots, just like everything else on SS/SA, like HMGs...

So, just bring that up with your GM, along with the fact that you can suppress a shotgun firing shot rounds IRL. If he doesn't care about how things work IRL, he won't care about non-lethal rounds being less noisy, either.