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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Character idea needs input

Posted by: Doctor Rat Jul 9 2004, 04:14 PM

I was trying to come up with a mildly original type of character, and I realized that while there is very high tech melee equipment in Shadowrun, there are probably few who completly specialize it over guns.

I was thinking of playing a character who specializes in close quarters melee combat, with an arsenal in various melee weapons... Perhaps some training (Less than average) in firearms would be useful too, though. Melee combat is likely to be a lot quieter than a firefight, which might be a big bonus.

I wanted to know what you thought of the idea? Be honest, if I were sure the idea wasn't silly at all I wouldent have bothered asking.

Thanks!

Posted by: RangerJoe Jul 9 2004, 04:22 PM

Well, there's this snazzy laser ax.... I could get you one on the cheap....

Posted by: Black Isis Jul 9 2004, 04:25 PM

Well, just remember, it's never advisable to bring a knife to a gunfight....

Posted by: RangerJoe Jul 9 2004, 04:25 PM

In all seriousness, generally close-quarters combat characters are designed around an adept core, just because improved melee abilities allow you to throw upwards of 12 dice on a melee attack.

In terms of high-level melee skills, a cybered character really can't compete, although they can make up for it in terms of strength enhancements and speed.

Melee is generally prefered by those who wish to be more discrete, those who want to do stun damage, and those who fetishize katanas.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 9 2004, 04:27 PM

The #1 key to being a melee character is having some way to get into melee. Ruthenium cloaks, adept stealth abilities, movement boosters, etc., make good methods for doing so.

Learn to shoot too, though. Unless you're going adept, the investment in a smartlink and a predator is minimal and well worth it.

Posted by: shadd4d Jul 9 2004, 04:28 PM

Basically, try to cover all bases, play to your strengths, and know people who can cover your weaknesses.

Melee is a challenge. Closing the distance is the hard part, especially in a hallway.

Don

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 9 2004, 04:50 PM

I'm playing a melee only character right now. I don't know how effective he'll actually be, but I managed to convince my GM to give me +1reach when using a worn weapon (so basically open handed, hardliner gloves, and shock gloves) but I CANNOT USE ANY FIREARMS. I can use muscle-propelled weapons but that's it for ranged weapons.

I also invented a couple of maneuvers. One got rejected, Flurry of blows. The second was Stunning Fist. I basically stole the names from AD&D. Stunning Fist acts like a shock weapon's stun only I lose 2 power and 1DL for dealing damage. I can send the stuff on the monk order I invented if you like.

I think making the character will be a lot more fun than trying to play him considering I'm so damnably new at this game. Bleh.

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 9 2004, 04:50 PM

Edit: Stupid double post

Posted by: Lantzer Jul 9 2004, 05:05 PM

I think the tech-based advantage for mundanes in melee comes in the form of cyber-weaponry. It's all fine and dandy that the adept can kick ass with his weapon focus, but let's see him hide it in his arm. The techie can also be a little more free with other cyber or bio augments. Things like enhanced articulation, or Balance augmenters, or hydraulic leg jacks can make a difference in the character's ability to get into melee in the first place.

Posted by: Apathy Jul 9 2004, 05:12 PM

and bone lacing/dermal sheath can help him soak damage until he can get into range.

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 9 2004, 05:17 PM

What about The optional atheltics(gymnastics) rule in the CC for dodging?

Page 97. Roll athletics(gynmastic) at TN4. 1 for 1 successes for dodge dice, but that's all you can do.

Say athletics 6, you can probably expect 2-4 dice on average, not too shabby. Especially if you go for an adept. 6 levels of improved athetics dice is 0.25 a piece for 1.5 points total. Rolling 12 dice total for extra dodge dice is rather nasty.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 9 2004, 05:20 PM

I'm not sure why a few of you are assuming that specializing in high-tech equipment precludes adepts. They're just as good with a Stun Baton or Vibrosword as they are with a Club or Katana.

Adepts are also free to get all the cyberware and bioware a mundane is with and actually have an easier time with geasa than traditional magicians do since they only have to geas a number of Power Points equal to the Magic Loss instead of all of their magic. Placing a single geas on Improved Reflexes 2 is enough to stave off 3 full points of Magic Loss.

The best thing to do is come up with a cool concept. And by concept, I don't mean "high-tech melee fighter." I mean something more like "a gypsy bare-knuckle boxer based on Mickey from Snatch." From there, just build the character as best you can and don't worry so much about how useful every aspect of the character will be. The fun in playing a character is coming up with new and interesting ways to apply all of your abilities beyond the obvious.

Once you have the basics down, then you can post what you come up with and ask people to help you hone the character a bit. There is such a thing as bad choices and crappy characters, but its hard to help you out if you don't at least give us something to work off of. "I want to make a viable high-tech melee specialist" isn't much to go on...

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 9 2004, 05:26 PM

Don't underestimate the goodness of an extendable baton. 9 conceal when folded, you can probably talk a GM into letting you conceal that in a sleave (it'd be likely to fit in your palm too because a hold-out pistol can) and with a learned reflex, slide it into place, spin it into position and be all "You dead now fool"

Posted by: Garland Jul 9 2004, 05:33 PM

I must be reading into things too much; when he said "high-tech melee specialist" I had an immediate image of a technofetishist melee fighter. The sort of guy who keeps up on all the latest metallurgy techniques, reads Modern Swordman on the Matrix, has to have every last new gadget-filled or gimmicky weapon (even down to the much maligned Laser Crescent Axe -- "An interesting, if currently non-viable idea, but with these new microreinforcements Mitsuhama has been talking about..." <runs off to workshop>) and quite possibly maintains a healthy distrust of magic. So maybe "lack of concept" is in the eye of the beholder.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 9 2004, 05:53 PM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

I'm not sure why a few of you are assuming that specializing in high-tech equipment precludes adepts.

About the only reason for this is that an effective combat adept generally doesn't have a whole lot in the way of resources. Aquiring things in game is always possible, though, and adepts generally go that route. Mundanes more often can start that way.

As for adepts and geasa... do you realize that geasa applied to offset magic loss (through whatever means) for adepts is solely at the GM's discression. The GM decides whether or not a geasa is gained, what it is, and what powers it applies to.

That's risky.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 9 2004, 06:08 PM

There's few melee weapons that require more than 20,000 or 90,000 nuyen at the most in Resources. Most can be bought with only the barebones 5,000 nuyen. Cyberware is completely different than high-tech melee equipment such as Stun Batons, Crescent Axes, and Vibroknives.

And yes, the rules do say that about adept powers but I've never played with a GM who did that. It makes no sense that other magicians can choose what geasa is appropriate for their characters when they suffer Magic Loss, but adepts are stuck taking whatever the GM gives them. It's also counter to the philosophy of character creation Shadowrun normally embraces. I usually consider it a non-issue, but I can see why some would.

Afterall, if a GM can't trust his players to take a sensible and logical geas when appropriate, they have way more issues to deal with than what a simple "I get to pick the geas" rule would fix.

Posted by: RangerJoe Jul 9 2004, 06:54 PM

I guess it's only moderate-tech, but there's always, well, Ash (plus or minus the shotgun, at your discretion).

Posted by: Dash Panther Jul 9 2004, 09:55 PM

You could also use throwing weapons. Take some powers or cyberware making you resistant to effects of flash-bangs (flare compensation, level dampener) or smoke grenades (blind fighting), throw grenades then charge in after them.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jul 9 2004, 11:50 PM

Of late i've been thinking of a NON adept melee character around Extendable batons (x2) and ambidextrous along with telescoping staffs/ Bo staffs....Perhaps a pair of dikoted spurs for the real messy stuff

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 10 2004, 02:33 AM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

I'm more talking about the support tech than the actual weapons. Ruthenium is a prime example of costly but very useful tech (45k + for a suit of it).

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

It makes no sense that other magicians can choose what geasa is appropriate for their characters when they suffer Magic Loss, but adepts are stuck taking whatever the GM gives them.

The reason for this is because adept geasa, when compared to the geasa for normal mages, are far less limiting. If you break the geasa, you only loose one power point's worth of powers. A normal mage breaks a geasa and suffers significant penalties to all of his magical dealings.

Personally, I don't push the matter when I GM, but it's not something you can count on all GMs having a liberal view on. It falls into that broad collection of things you should check your GM's viewpoint on before you try it.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 10 2004, 02:47 AM

I'd say its a matter of perspective. A traditional magician will have minimal impact for breaking a geas (anything over Magic 6 is generally useless to one except for every three points you need to influence your Spell Pool). But when an adept breaks a geas, he loses access to any powers that rely on that geas -- he can't use them at all.

But otherwise I agree. 'Course, an adept doesn't need to worry as much about Ruthenium Polymers, either. Sure, they're nice, but they have their own alternatives. Improved Ability: Stealth and even the non-canonical Knack: Improved Invisibility are just two quick examples.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 10 2004, 03:13 AM

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

A traditional magician will have minimal impact for breaking a geas (anything over Magic 6 is generally useless to one except for every three points you need to influence your Spell Pool).

I'm not sure I get your meaning. I agree that initiate mages have much less reason to take geasa to offeset magic loss since high magic rating is of a limited use (compared to power points, at least). However, breaking a geasa is a pain a mage's behind. Once you do so, you're at +1 TN per geasa you possess (not just geasa you've broken) to all magical tests in addition to not having the magic point that geasa was holding.

QUOTE (Misfit Toy)

'Course, an adept doesn't need to worry as much about Ruthenium Polymers, either. Sure, they're nice, but they have their own alternatives. Improved Ability: Stealth and even the non-canonical Knack: Improved Invisibility are just two quick examples.

Personally, I don't allow knacks (and I'd say it's pretty hit or miss which GMs do) and while improved ability: stealth is nice, even at 6+ bonus dice it simply doesn't compare to a +12 to tests to spot you using vision (given that it's the major component of most such tests). Traceless walk is also better than more stealth dice when it comes to noise.

Of course, the physical adept ends up using both the powers and the ruthenium for ultimate effect. That generally (but not always) means that it's the provence of an experienced character.

A lot depends on how your particular GM awards cash and karma. If you expect to be playing the character a long time with moderate to high reward levels, I wouldn't hesitate to go with the adept. The starting character might be slightly less effective than the cyber version, but it has more growth potentital. For low reward levels and short term characters, I'd go the mundane route. You can do a lot with a big pile of cash.

Interesting question, can you dikote a virbo sword? I'd say yes from glancing at the fluff on it, in the absence of anything to the contrary.

Another note. Many people will advise you to ignore reflex boosts for an adept. Before you do that, find out how your GM handles melee engagements. By a literal reading of the rules, if you attack someone in melee, their TN to hit you with the gun they're holding is only somewhat impared. It's also possible that they can simply walk back a couple of meters and shoot you with few (if any) penalties (if their speeds and movement rate allows). Speed is only unimportant in the case where the other guy didn't bring a gun to a knife fight. In any case, the best method is to incapacitate your opponent in a single initiative pass.

Posted by: Doctor Rat Jul 10 2004, 04:13 AM

Thanks for all the input. I was considering more high-tech stuff over magic. What books can give me stats on things like vibroswords/monoswords/laser axes/etc.

When I thought into this character, I realized I was probably going to end up with a katana-wielding-trench-coat warrior, and I got kind of worried. Any idea to surpass this stereotype character?

I thought more into the idea, I began thinking the character could be a modern swordsman (Swashblucker? No Rapier though) with an elegant way with swords, and maybe a smooth demeanor. Add in maybe an aristrocratic family with a penchant for swordsmanship, and some modern cyberware...

You know what, that's kind of cheesy.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 10 2004, 04:20 AM

Cannon Companion and Man & Machine (for Dikoting and Ruthenium Polymers) is what you need to look at.

Hmm. How about a EuroTrash-style undercover Templar agent sent on a mission to keep tabs on the underworld? Perhaps the Vatican has heard rumors that something dark and evil is brewing in the seedy underbelly of Seattle, and its your job to keep an eye open for whatever it may be. You can find info on the Templars in Threats 2.

Vashon Island Actioneer Line suit, a Dikoted Vibrosword and matching Vibroknife, the Ambidexterity 3 edge, and working with your GM to develop a European swordfighting-oriented martial art that lets you buy maneuvers solely for use with Edged Weapons has a lot of potential without going too extreme in concept. You could then go adept or stay mundane at your leisure, though being an adept just fits the theme better.

If you want more unusual concepts, I'm sure we can come up with quite a few. I'm just a fan of stereotypes sometimes.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 10 2004, 05:16 AM

Personally, I think an adept is really the way to go. Nothing compares to having 6 extra dice in an opposed dice contest. Plus the invaluable power of Quickdraw, which allows you to use the quickdraw rules for things like swords. Any mundane character will not be as good as a starting adept melee specialist.

Sure, a well-made sammie can have pumped up physical Attributes, Impact armor from 'ware that stacks with worn armor, and lots of speed. But if the other guy is rolling 6 more dice than you, you're still usually out of luck.

It wouldn't be bad if you wanted someone good at combat and ranged combat, but for a melee specialist, making it a mundane instead of an adept is like making a troll (non-Fomorian ) conjuror - it may be an interesting roleplaying experience, but it's a far from optimal specialist.

Adepts also offer a wide range of possibilities:

The knife guy - uses a Cougar fineblade in each hand and tosses throwing knives (improved Edged Weapons, improved Throwing Weapons, Missile Mastery, and the Ambidexterity Edge).

A stereotypical dwarven techie who uses things like shock batons and monofilament swords, and knows how to build and repair such weapons as well. Add skills such as demolitions, chemistry, ballistics, and booby traps to have a thinking man's melee specialist.

A renegade Tir assassin with an old-school flavor, who uses fencing weapons up close and a heavy crossbow for sniping.

Posted by: Doctor Rat Jul 10 2004, 09:07 AM

Oi, I'm torn between the two. Adept seems nice... Say I were to make an adept, who's primary weapon would be some kind of sword (Or just swords, preferably not katanas) Can the adept wield a vibrosword or monosword just as skillfully as a street samurai? Are there adept powers to boost the use of it? As you can tell, I've never played shadowrun, this is gonna be my first character.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Jul 10 2004, 12:58 PM

There's nothing that slows down adepts when it comes to high tech melee weapons. The only speed bump is their general lack of cash at charactergen. Depending on your generation system, though, that might not be a problem.

The adept is certainly nice (up to 9 additional dice on melee tests), but for most uses, the mundane works just fine. When the opponent is a melee adept, your best solution is generally to shoot him, not duke it out, after all.

Posted by: toturi Jul 10 2004, 01:11 PM

I made a Quickness Night One Ghoul with SURGE Satyr Legs as a melee adept with a little stealth to spice things up once upon a time.

Posted by: Doctor Rat Jul 10 2004, 08:04 PM

How did the character work out?

I'm so disoriented...

I like this templar idea, I was thinking about buying Threats 2 for more info on it, but now I'm pulled between a techo-knight with a sense of chivalry, an agent for this paladin group, or an internal magician with a sword. I really like the idea for a techy character, but I don't want to sacrifice prowess for a cheesy idea...

Posted by: Siege Jul 10 2004, 10:08 PM

Create both characters and see which one you like better.

Throwing 20 dice into an attack can be nice, but being able to tear a door off it's hinges and shrug off weapons fire has its merits too.

Not to re-kindle the adept/samurai wars, but cybernetics offers its own set of advantages and disadvantages.

-Siege

Edit: As for buying the book, if your GM has it, just borrow it. If nobody has the book, make it up and let your GM approve it.

Nobody will know and you save yourself 20 nuyen...dollars.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 10 2004, 10:45 PM

Unless, of course, you actually want the book or want to support the company.

Posted by: toturi Jul 11 2004, 12:42 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Rat)

My character worked out pretty well, considering he was a ghoul.

Posted by: FlakJacket Jul 11 2004, 01:07 AM

QUOTE (shadd4d)

Melee is a challenge. Closing the distance is the hard part, especially in a hallway.

Christ, tell me about it. Reminds me of a game one time,

*Five security guys dressed in black ninja outfits wielding katanas run down the corridoor towards the group. One PC sees them, pulls out a semi-automatic shotgun and steps forward. BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM-BAM! Spaghetti sauce.*

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 11 2004, 04:09 AM

Also IMHO tossing all those bonus dice at melee is skill point masturbation. At a skill of six you're going to beat the majority of everyone in melee anyway. At six plus six from adept skill bonus dice it's pretty pointless except against another uber melee adept, and if it comes to that, just shoot him. Melee is handy in some situations, but it's a lot less handy than a ranged weapon virtually all of the time.

Posted by: Glyph Jul 11 2004, 06:04 AM

I would disagree with that. For a normal character a skill of 6 may be plenty, but for a melee specialist you need more. A skill of 6 is not that uncommon, and your opponents can add Combat Pool to it, maybe when you've already used yours up beating up the first goon. At that point, 6 points of improved ability only make it an even contest. Plus, those extra dice can be the difference between doing a light wound to someone versus taking them out. Yes, you can make a melee character who is effective most of the time without the improved ability power - but having it is hardly useless or overkill.

Doctor Rat:

The reason I am pimping adepts so much is that melee combat is an opposed dice contest between the attacker and the defender. You can get wounded when attacking someone, or wound them when they attack you. It's all about who gets more successes, which means that the person throwing 6 more dice tends to win most of the time.

The whole adepts vs. sammies debate has popped up numerous times, but most people agree that adepts make better specialists, and sammies make better generalists.

You may want to be careful how you execute your concept, though. Melee combat is a vital skill, but it is limited in its application, and often doesn't come up as much as you might want it to. You can make a tough melee guy, but give him some ranged and other skills, too. Shadowrunners are specialists, true, but don't focus too narrowly on one thing.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 07:16 AM

And remember, it only takes a moderately high skill level and maybe a Smartlink-2 to be a superb marksman (a 6 skill point, 0.5 Essence, and 3,500-nuyen investment) so anyone can be a fearsome one. Melee combat, on the other hand, is the sole domain of adepts. Quick-Draw, Improved Ability and Counterstrike are all abilities that can't be matched by implants or spells...