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Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jul 11 2004, 06:15 AM

I guess the title's self-explanatory: are there any ways that you can make a good Otaku character that isn't totally useless outside of the Matrix? I get that it's kinda the point of Otaku to be total weaklings and basically useless unless they're Matrix-hopping, but are there any ways to make them not suck quite so much in meatspace?

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 11 2004, 06:23 AM

44 assloads of karma put into real world skills, and NOT taking the "max physical attributes of one" option!

Posted by: de4dmeta1 Jul 11 2004, 07:16 AM

Give them a taser. Not much else is so under-rated while still packing a nice punch.

Just my two

Posted by: toturi Jul 11 2004, 02:00 PM

Use them as Faces. With Cha 8+, even normal Faces will be jealous.

Posted by: shadd4d Jul 11 2004, 02:04 PM

They don't have enough contacts (just the 2 freebies, IIRC).

But they still have a lot of social attributes backing them up. Detective maybe?

But basically do not take the option of having only a 1 in the physical attributes. It's not worth it and then you are a one-trick pony.

Don

Posted by: toturi Jul 11 2004, 02:10 PM

Look, it is not that much of a downside to taking 1s in physical Attributes. An otaku that gets himself shot at deserves to be flatlined.

Posted by: shadd4d Jul 11 2004, 02:14 PM

In all honesty, tell that to black ice before you've bought the neurofilter echo. Then it does really blow to have a 1 in Body. That and gray IC make it almost important to have at least a body of 2 before having neurofilter.

But look at what you're also doing. Physical skills, e.g. combat skills will cost more from your skill points than others. So your combat skills end up low.

Don

Posted by: toturi Jul 11 2004, 02:26 PM

Yes, but it is a damned sight easier to boost your physicals with karma from 1 to 2 than your mentals from 8 to 9. Any test needing to use Body as a TN is still 2 instead of 1. Also as having only 1 Body to resist Black IC, your best bet is not to tango with it in the first place, whether your Body is 1 or 2 is moot.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 02:51 PM

Design them as a real character and don't assume their little kids. I've created two non-thumb-sucking otaku and they have all turned out rather well. Nothing needs to be done except to utterly destroy the whole "they have to be children" mentality.

Posted by: Nephyte Jul 11 2004, 05:03 PM

Except that they do essentially have to be children as they start losing their "powers" shortly after entering adulthood...

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 05:21 PM

Not until they're 21, and all it takes is a custom edge designed with your GM to elminate that stupid aspect.

Posted by: Nephyte Jul 11 2004, 05:40 PM

See, now your including house rules. While I agree this is an open forum to bring house rules into every rule discussion only muddles things up terribly. Many GM's including myself see a certain logic behind the limiting of Otaku.


Further, if you want to look at all from a scientifical standpoint, it is my understanding that most of our brain development happens while we are in the earlier stages of our life, and from then on, our brain fails to generate new cell growth and we degenerate. See the link?


I don't think it's stupid at all. No less stupid then limiting cyberware by Essence, and tying magic to that same essence. Every aspect of the game has several limiting factors. Karma, Nuyen, Essence, Bio-Index. Without an age limit, Otaku only have a single limit, and that is Karma.


Part of the Otaku mystique *IS* that they are Children who have a special connection to the matrix. If you don't like it, that is certainly fine, but to say it's outright stupid is rather inflamatory I think.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 11 2004, 06:32 PM

I'm going to have to go ahead and agree that eliminating the fading aspect of Otaku will demand that you insert some other limitation to their powers... else, in 10-20 years of game time, you'll start seeing Otaku whose matrix prowess exceeds that of the AIs and who can essentially choose to own the world.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 06:43 PM

That's a flaw in the design of the Otaku rules (and one can argue that's true of all magicians as well -- if the GM allows them in the game that long, they deserve any headaches created). And it doesnt take 10-20 years of game time... just Karma. A ten-year-old Otaku has 11 years before he starts reaching the Fading anyway, so your argument there is moot to begin with. Of course a decker, after 10-20 years of constantly earning money, improving his deck and utilities, and spending Karma on his Computer skill, has no upper range either. So what's your point here anyway?

Regardless, considering they have the only set of rules in the game in which their characters dwindle away "just because" is contrary to the very nature to the point of character advancement. If they were going to introduce them as a player character concept, they should have made the concept more solid and playable. As it stands now, they're just a different breed of poorly executed magician.

Posted by: Sir Randel Jul 11 2004, 06:49 PM

One possible house rule limit is that past 21 an otaku can't increase his submersion grade.

Posted by: Nephyte Jul 11 2004, 07:00 PM

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 07:17 PM

I didn't call you stupid. I called the conclusion stupid. I apologize if you couldn't tell the difference.

And I still consider it stupid because basically what you're saying is exactly the same thing. One's ability to learn new things, process information, and grow (ie, improve mental attributes) demonstrates that the brain doesn't "stop developing" at any point whatsoever. At least not in any functional way. If it did, no one would be able to do anything after hitting 21. You can't have your cake and eat it, too. (And note that the Fading is just that... FADING. Not "no longer advancing" but "fading." They get dumber.)

The fact that there are canonical cases of old otaku and created otaku demonstrates that it's not some child growth phenomenon. It's magic, plain and simple. I know a lot of people don't like to acknowledge it, but everything about the otaku scream magician -- right down to the rules governing their abilities. They summon spirits (sprites), they cast spells (complex forms and channels), they astrally perceive and project (into the Matrix instead of the astral), they initiate and have grades (submerse), they have metamagic techniques (echoes), they're split between hermetica (cyberadepts) and shaman (technoshamans) traditions, they have a Magic Attribute (MPCP), no otaku has ever been known to be a magician (because it would be redundant), and their abilities are clearly painted in their auras. And just like adepts, they didn't start showing up until well after the Awakening. They're as alien to normal magicians as adepts almost are, but they're still magicians nonetheless whether one wants to accept it or not.

The only real difference is that they burn-out through age instead of abuse or Essence loss, and that's the main flaw in their rules design. They should have followed the magician template through entirely (and Drain would have gone a *LONG* way to making a *NOTABLE* difference between Otaku and Deckers without having to cripple the concept) instead of listening to some two-bit shadowtalk that said all otaku are children -- of course they were in the Denver sourcebook, they had only started being born a few years prior! You might as well say all elves and dwarves are forced to be children since they only started showing up in the mainstream around 2011... and were showing up as children.

Bleh. I'm going to pull out. This is all a very sour topic for me.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jul 11 2004, 07:35 PM

Wow, did this get off-topic fast. For the record, I agree with Misfit Toy about Otaku being odd modern-Awakened, and that the age vs. Essence/Magic rating limit is the only real difference, but it really is irrelevant to this thread.

Anyway, I like the idea of a taser-wielding otaku. If you make it an elf you can get three points into tasers (it's a specialization of pistols, isn't it?), which works out decently. On the flip side you could go dwarf and use the 3 Str to get throwing weapons at a decent level, etc etc. I guess the big idea here is to go for a metahuman, and use the racial attribute mods to get the stats you need.

I don't like the idea of not taking advantage of the "all physical attributes at 1" rule; IMO Otaku really need all the advantages they can get in the beginning to be useful at all in the Matrix, as a decker can easily outdistance them if the Otaku isn't careful about minmaxing from the very beginning.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jul 11 2004, 07:37 PM

As a slightly different view, they are a technological entity's desire to understand magic. The severe curiosities that are known as "AIs" first created the altered neurology as an experiment to be able to meet humans directly. The next phase involved giving them levels of matrix control to match the indirect influence of deckers. The AIs used imagery based on the magic that some humans could wield outside the matrix. Simple observation showed that many humans feared an opponent using magic, so they concluded that "deckers" would fear a magic like opposition. Some were built based on the "shamen" while others were based on the "mages."
Most of these power wielding adjusted humans were also frightening to the AIs that made them. For that reason, the AIs built a fail mechanism into their abilities. Only a few exceptions were written without it, and very few ever become trusted enough to have it removed.

Now, the reason that all otaku show similar types of ability whether they are known AI builds or "Deep" builds is that logical analysis of the same problems will result in similar solutions with the variance usually depending on the presence or lack of some non-critical details.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 11 2004, 07:48 PM

If your team has a rigger, Gunnery could let you add to the firepower being brought to bear. Launch Weapons for when it hits the fan. Social skillz (yes, with a z). Biotech.

Basically, anything that isn't linked to a physical attribute.

Remember, that Body of 1 only takes ten karma to get to 3, average human.

~J

Posted by: Cain Jul 11 2004, 08:29 PM

First of all, the "they must be children" mentality isn't strictly needed. You can have an otaku of age 14-16, who can pass for a young-ish adult. We all know teenagers who can pass as adult often enough.

Second, as Doc pointed out, if you start at age 15, you've got six years of in-game time before you have to worry about Fading. That's an awfully long time.

The third thing to do is what Torturi pointed out-- start them as Faces. Using the point system, you can buy additional contacts; similarily, you can buy them as edges. Buy up Ettiquette and Negotiation; with a Charisma of 8, you can get quite far. As time goes on, you'll want to invest in more headware (headware memory is a must) and if you can afford it, tailored cultured pheremones.

A fourth (very unusual) option is to create a troll otaku. I've never seen this done, but I've heard some people swear by it. The troll benefits offset the physical penalites, so you can choose to only spend 1 point on the physical attributes. Without running the numbers, I'd say that you'd come pretty close to an unaugmented human if you did that-- which isn't too terrible.

Posted by: snowRaven Jul 11 2004, 09:58 PM

My 2 cents...

First of all, the human brain keeps rebuilding, recreating and rewiring it's neurons until it dies, but at no point in our lives does it do it as well or as quickly as during our growth (0 to 16ish) - after that it gradually slows down, becomes less effective at it, and starts deteriorating more quickly. This process also depends on the individual - stimulating the brain with alot of mental tasks (math and similar problemsolving especially) helps it along.

As for Otaku being magically active... Well, the rules are fairly similar, but there are a few points against it. First, Otaku-abilities can be created by AIs, with varying success. From everything written, their abilities stem from being able to rewire their brain in various ways to enable it to interact directly with the matrix. Nothing suggests that their abilities are genetical, as magic is in SR, but instead created. And, thanx to SURGE, we could in theory have a magically active Otaku - though that is mere speculation and up for interpretation.

Now, Fading isn't perfectly logical, but it does make some sense. An Otaku's brain is apparently extremely custom-wired, and would probably require constant remapping and rewiring as they expand, train and maybe even use their abilities. An older brain (see above) will start to loose it's flexibility. Also, it may have something to do with how people loose alot of the potential to believe in the unbelievable as they grow up - otaku who grow old may also loose part of that imagination which kept them flexible in the matrix. Since there ARE adult otaku who doesn't fade, it is obvious that this isn't written in stone. However, at present there seem to be only three types of otaku:
1) AI created otaku children like the Banded, who are only otaku in the system controlled by 'their' AI, who presumably fade when they grow older.
2) Deep Resonance created otaku children, who fade as they grow older.
3) AI created adult otaku who do not fade, but who were created as otaku as adults.
Of course, then we can discuss if the Deep Resonance is a magical entity(an 'avatar' awakening potentials in them matrix) or an AI but I think we can all agree that AIs are probably not magical beings, spirits or avatars, so it follows by logic that otaku probably aren't either.

Posted by: Pelaka Jul 11 2004, 09:58 PM

I always assumed the fading was tied to SOTA... as the otaku aged their brains lost the ability to keep up with the constant software/hardware upgrades on the matrix. What I liked about this explaination is it gave otaku ways to try to get around fading:

1. Play on private systems running increasingly archaic software.
2. Plot to control software/OS upgrades to the matrix to ensure more "otaku friendly" upgrades where done. Possible wars between young otaku that want the next upgrade because it would help them vs the old otaku that don't want it because its too big a change for them to adapt to.
3. Invent either pseudo-cyberdecks or custom forms that acted as reality filters of sort... to translate the current matrix protocols into the "older versions" the otaku could understand.

Back on topic... what is preventing an otaku from becomming a kickass rigger? Even if he ran it from matrix mode in captain's chair he would still be pretty good. Especially if you gave him a fleet of robot drones and allowed him to replace the pilot software with sprites (yeah, major twisting of rules here).

I really don't see an otaku as a face. Yeah, the numbers work in this direction, but all the background for otaku emphasises how socially inept they are... to actually become an effective face would be a pretty big leap for them.

Pel.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 11 2004, 10:06 PM

There's a pretty strong argument that Otaku ability is magically connected, namely that Otaku cannot become Mages, Shamans, Adepts, or aspected versions of any of these.

There is no other group that cannot become these with one exception: those who already are. For instance, the only people who cannot be Shamans are the Adepts and Mages. The Otaku, therefore, fit in with already having a tradition and hence being unable to have another.

~J

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 11 2004, 10:21 PM

Posted by: mfb Jul 11 2004, 10:25 PM

there's also the point that one of the most basic pieces of information you acquire when astrally assensing someone is whether or not they're Awakened. otaku don't register to astral senses as being magically-active.

to address the actual topic, i like playing with the Remote Control complex form and making the otaku into a psuedo-rigger. Intelligence-linked weapon skills are also nice. dumping karma into your Quickness will raise your Combat Pool (Int and Wil should already be way above-average). otaku also stand a better-than-average chance against mages, with their high Wil and Int scores--use that to your tactical advantage.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 10:41 PM

Bah.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 11 2004, 10:50 PM

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 10:54 PM

IC they cast spells, summon spirits, are split between hermetics and shamans, and perform wonders that mundanes can't without technological assistance... all by nothing but sheer will alone. They also have a tendency to gather into magical groups and like to initiate to improve their magical powers and gain access to metamagic techniques. Their shamans hear the voice of their totemic god, and their hermetics see their powers from a more analytical aspect.

Posted by: shadd4d Jul 11 2004, 11:08 PM

I've looked through the Otaku chapter in Matrix. Neither it nor the old VR 2.0 or VR 2.01D say anything about auras. I'm going on something that either a GM or he himself came up with. Sounds interesting stylistically, but it has no basis in the books.

Don

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 11:10 PM

Oh good lord.

Posted by: FlakJacket Jul 11 2004, 11:14 PM

Posted by: Person 404 Jul 11 2004, 11:15 PM

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 11:16 PM

Okay, I got it backwards in my head. It's when people say that only 1% of the 1% are fully awakened that MitS corrects. My mistake. Sorry.

I do know that otaku have strange auras in the Matrix, though. As soon as I get my books I'll provide a page reference.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 11 2004, 11:22 PM

IIRC there's some odd things in the aura of whatever Ronin was called before he became Ronin.

~J

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 11 2004, 11:31 PM

I do know it was mentioned in a novel somewhere. And while I still don't have my books available, I did find this on the http://lists.dumpshock.com/pipermail/shadowrn/Week-of-Mon-20000605/033013.html. Take it however you like, but while it isn't canon, the novels (sadly) are, and this blurb is obviously in reference to it because its exactly how I remember it being described. I'm only going to quote the relevant parts.

Author: Tzeentch
Subject: Optional Otaku Revisions
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2002

The following is a slightly revised version of the Otaku rules I developed for my The Matrix submission. It was not part of my final submission so I've changed the rules to follow existing SR3/VR2 mechanics as much as possible. Comments are of course welcome. Text in brackets [] denotes text changed from the original manuscript.

RESONANCE AURA
An otakus aura will radically shift once they enter the Matrix with their Living Persona. Anyone assenssing an otaku as he interfaces will notice that the otaku's aura dims, then seems to sparkle with strange lights. Anyone familiar with otaku will immediately recognize it. The otaku cannot masked or hide this efffect on their aura - even if they are aware of it.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 12 2004, 12:00 AM

Technobabel, that was the book.

Side note: for a pretty good book, that had the worst cover teaser I can remember seeing.

~J

Posted by: Link Jul 12 2004, 12:28 AM

Posted by: Nephyte Jul 12 2004, 12:58 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong but a major difference between Magically Active People and Otaku (other then Matrix vs Astral) is that people are *born* either magically active or not. Otaku are introduced via the Deep Resonance, Disonance, or an AI. That at least is my recollection. No one is born an Otaku, but rather they gain it through a matrix related experience.


I can't seem to find my copy of the Matrix or SRComp but don't otaku also need a second piece of cyberware other then the datajack to interface with the matrix, thus making them technologically assisted.


While I agree the mechanics dealing with Otaku are fairly similar to those dealing with the magically active they miss several key aspects. Drain is just one. MPCP being based on mental stats rather then essence is another. Inability to interact with the astral being a third. I can definitely see the arguement being made that the Matrix is their astral plane, although the fact it's a technological invention rather then a living bioforce creation certainly brings an arguement worthy. Sprites aren't the cousin to Elementals/Spirits. They cost Karma to create. An Ally Spirit would be a far closer comparison if one were to be made.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 12 2004, 12:59 AM

Polaris? Hardly.

As far as the bathroom comment goes, that was in response to BitBasher's comment about "and can you prove normal people don't have weird auras when they're decking."

I also couldn't care less if my ideas were canonical or not, nor do I particularly care for Tzeentch's style. However, considering he was one of the primary writer's for the otaku rules in 3rd Edition, I imagine his thoughts on the process hold a bit more sway than most since he (hopefully) researched the topic significantly before writing about it. Especially when those thoughts come directly from an actual canonical source.

Posted by: Nephyte Jul 12 2004, 01:00 AM

@Link

Yes they are. pg 136 The Matrix.

Posted by: Nephyte Jul 12 2004, 01:02 AM

Well Misfit Toy, you did make a claim that Mundane Aura's would not in fact change, while Otaku Aura's do change. Further, you made that claim without any textual referance to back it up.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 12 2004, 01:10 AM

Very well. Everytime you post a single message on this board in the future, I expect a page reference for each and every comment you make.

Posted by: Nephyte Jul 12 2004, 01:19 AM

Oh, I certainly will when trying to rules lawyer something with another poster. Have no fear on that, if I am going to disagree with someone offhand, I'm at least going to post a page referance before calling them an intellectual jackass.

Posted by: Misfit Toy Jul 12 2004, 01:23 AM

You failed to reference each and every post you were referring to in your last comment. Please do so before continuing, because I am wholly unable to accept anything you have to say unless you hold my hand while doing so. Thank you.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jul 12 2004, 01:24 AM

Posted by: Nephyte Jul 12 2004, 01:34 AM

Actually it gives the Otaku 2 extra attribute points to each mental stat. This is the same as an elf gaining 2 extra charisma points for being an elf, thus allowing them to hit 8 Charisma at character creation.

It then goes to say this raises their racial modified limit per the standard rules. (Racial Modified Limit x 1.5)

If you read the text you're not violating any pre-existing character development rules.


Otaku Example Alpha:

21 Attribute Points:

1 Str
1 Qui
1 Bod
6 Int
6 Will
6 Cha

Then you apply the 2 extra Attribute Points for being Otaku and putting all physical stats to 1. This gives you a further bonus of raising your Racial Limit to 8 for each Mental Stat.

1 Str
1 Qui
1 Bod
8 Int
8 Will
8 Cha



It is at least my belief and that of others to my knowledge that the Otaku bonus points are treated as Racial Bonus points in a fashion.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 12 2004, 02:04 AM

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jul 12 2004, 02:08 AM

Posted by: Nephyte Jul 12 2004, 02:21 AM

Bleh sorry, mental bungle by me. Multi-Tasking to many message boards plus my FF League at the same time.


Sorry, I do interpret it the way you mention (2 points to distribute between the 3 stats) not the way I erroniously mentioned.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 12 2004, 02:22 AM

It's a total of +3 Attributes, while Trolls get (IIRC) +4 or +5. I don't think that's the correct interpretation, but it's not completely out of line.

~J

Posted by: Cain Jul 12 2004, 04:01 AM

While intuitively, I tend to go with Doc's view-- otaku are just another branch of magic--there are a couple of oddities. Namely, AI-created otaku.

IMO, AI-created otaku toss all the pre-existing rules out the window. According to the draft as written by Demonseed Elite, AI-created otaku do not Fade-- he wanted it as a "pact with the devil" sort of deal for aging otaku. In theory, an already-Awakened person could survive being turned into an otaku, with their magical abilites intact. (Since the entire AI-conversion process is, by canon, totally dependant on GM fiat, it could work that way.)

Posted by: mfb Jul 12 2004, 04:30 AM

jesus, troy, quit being a baby. you're putting forth a hypothesis that no one else agrees with, so it's your place to prove it, not ours to disprove it. show a page ref for otaku auras or shut it. if anyone else put forth a statement like that with no reference, you'd rip them apart--have the intellectual integrity to apply the same standards to yourself. you're usually pretty good at that--did somebody piss in your coffee this morning, or what?

it's also worth pointing out that Jason Levine/Demonseed Elite did not care for the magical otaku idea, nor did Dave Hyatt (author of RA: Shutdown).

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 12 2004, 04:52 AM

Technobabel. Want a page reference? As soon as I can dig the book out, I'll give it to you.

~J

Posted by: mfb Jul 12 2004, 03:49 PM

that would be swell. it would allow us to argue sensibly, instead of comparing aura changes to unimportant (game-wise) bodily functions.

two points, to preemptively refute the Technobabel reference. first, does it state in clear terms that the otaku being assensed appeared to be Awakened? because auras reflect more than that--brain functions that no other human possesses could explain aura oddities as easily as being Awakened could. second, does it say anything about otaku's auras in any sourcebook, anywhere? because it seems like a very long stretch if you're pulling game mechanics out of the novels, especially since SR's novel line is famous for completely ignoring the mechanics of the game.

i should note here that i'm not arguing that otaku definitely are not magical--i'm just pointing out that it's not as clear-cut as some people say it is. otaku are not definitely magical, and they're not definitely non-magical. if anything, they're definitely an enigma, and i think that is what the designers had in mind.

Posted by: Cain Jul 12 2004, 11:39 PM

While I find it easiest to think of them as magical, I understand that many people do not. The best argument I've heard is that AI's can turn just about everyone else into otaku, *except* for mages/awakened individuals. Thus, otakuhood and magic are somehow mutually exclusive to one another; and the only reason why that can happen is more magic.

So, does anyone have their books handy? If so, could someone please pull out YotC, and see if an otaku can undergo SURGE to gain astral perception or become dual-natured?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 12 2004, 11:42 PM

I'm not saying it's clear-cut, not by far. I'm saying that there's a significant amount of evidence that could support that conclusion.

Now, off to dig for that book.

~J

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 13 2004, 12:35 AM

Not what I was looking for, but possibly what I was remembering (I've still got half the book to go, so we may yet have aural strangeness in store), on page 142:

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jul 13 2004, 12:52 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 13 2004, 01:29 AM

Page 186:

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jul 13 2004, 01:43 AM

So based on that, i could be simaliar to someone not knowing about shapeshifters and seing their aura for the first time.....

[EDIT] ie. I don't know what it is or could be sense, and thus anything[/EDIT]

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 13 2004, 02:06 AM

Yep. It keeps the IC possibility open, though. The main evidence I see is the OOC mechanics of the lack of overlap between magic and the Otaku.

~J

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jul 13 2004, 02:10 AM

Just i side note: I'm firmly in the "Not another form of awakened character" Camp, if it did become canon then it would be one of the few things i would disregard.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 13 2004, 02:10 AM

...or... not knowing an otaku an seeing their aura for the first time.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 13 2004, 02:13 AM

My personal view is that the Otaku aren't another form of magic, but in fact another race, as suggested by their placement in the build point chart, but that's another story.

~J

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 13 2004, 02:21 AM

Then do you explain the fact than an AI can make anyone into an otaku with nothing more then them jacked into the matrix?

Posted by: Shev Jul 13 2004, 02:24 AM

You mean like a kind of metavariant? I don't think that really works. I don't have the Matrix sourcebook, but I believe that the Fading just leaves them normal for their race. If I'm wrong, correct me here. To me, the exclude the separate race theory. That remind me, can metavariants be Otaku? I think they can, but I'm not certain.

Myself, I'm leaning towards the theory that they are magical. However, I suspect that this will never be made canon, and that it will be left to the will of the GM whether or not Otaku are magicians.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jul 13 2004, 02:28 AM

Yes they can be Meta Varients and get infected as well.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 13 2004, 02:40 AM

That's the only way I can see to rationalize a kid being able to get somewhere in the vicinity of 8+ in all mental stats before augmentation. Seriously, I'm decently intelligent and I have difficulty roleplaying a character that smart

~J

Posted by: Cain Jul 13 2004, 02:53 AM

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 13 2004, 02:59 AM

I dont disagree at all with the logic involved, but I wouldn't call them a race. A race implies things beyond this. I just think they're a metahuman whose mental operation falls within a certain set of limitations that lends them to the process they undergo sucessfully.

Fundamentally I agree with you, just not in the semantics.

Posted by: otomik Jul 14 2004, 02:16 AM

Otaku are based on autistics and autistics lose their incredible abilities of abstraction as they become more socialized, there are many real life cases of this. Often their unique abilities are most evident in childhood.
(see also chapter 23 of the Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat by Oliver Sacks)


Otaku Face: It's insane and to even suggest it means you take Role-Playing to be not much more than a numbers game (or you have a completely different conception of otaku). If you've ever had the oportunity to talk to a person with autism you'd find that they would stand out in ackwardness even in a star trek convention.

if you can't deal with the age 21 limit that's too bad, maybe you shouldn't play an Otaku. in my opinion all good cyberpunk characters aren't out to live forever, "the flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long" as Mr. Tyrell pointed out.

If you want a more versatile otaku then have the character relate things back to their own introverted world. firearms training as a first person shooter, driving games etc. besides that there's still plenty of B/R skills that they can help the team out with.

Posted by: mfb Jul 14 2004, 03:06 AM

...except that otaku aren't autistic, and have never been portrayed as such. there are some similarities, yes, but no more than there are between otaku and mages. it's insane to suggest that the only explanation for their abilities is autism, and to even suggest it means you haven't paid enough attention to the material.

Posted by: otomik Jul 14 2004, 03:47 AM

the SR portrayal of otaku is consistent with all the characteristics of autism. it's a great working model, based on or inspired by doesn't mean it's the same thing. otaku and autistics are not the same thing. but if you want to know what a good characterization of otaku is, i'd point to autistics just about every time and much more so than i would compare them to magic-users. sorry if that was confusing.

Posted by: UnsungRequiem Jul 14 2004, 05:28 AM

Lets not oversimplify gentlemen. Otaku and Autistics are VERY different. The vast majority of autistics are completely incapable of normal human interactions, their brains are singulary focused to the exclusion of all else. Only costly medication and therapy can ever hope to allow them to lead a "normal" life.....Their brains simply function differently than ours. While "regular" people might find certain higher brain and mathmatical functions completely alien, most autistics feel the same way when it comes to compartivly simple concepts that are outside their "sphere". This is a simplistic definition and open to a variety of criticism but I believe it's esentially accurate. Otaku on the other hand are much different. They are not only capable of normal social interaction but most excel at it. Also, Otaku are capable of thinking outside their "sphere" of mental focus. I would regard Otaku more as "savants en general" than anything related to autism.

Also, I was under the impression that Deus didn't "create" Otaku. I thought he found and awakened them. This distinction is important because it might help us determine why his Otaku can only functon inside the SCIRE. Are they physically incapable?, or Has Deus tained them to be unable to function outside?

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 14 2004, 05:36 AM

Posted by: mfb Jul 14 2004, 05:41 AM

that was an intentional limitation on Deus' part. Ronin was his first otaku, and he functions just fine outside the SCIRE, as does the Network.

Posted by: Cain Jul 14 2004, 06:18 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 14 2004, 12:03 PM

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 14 2004, 12:40 PM

Posted by: UnsungRequiem Jul 14 2004, 02:12 PM

Moon-Hawk: Isn't all religion brainwashing?

In other news, you do bring up a point I intentionally omited during my first post. If Deus could create Otaku without limitations, Why wouldn't he? There is no obvious reason to limit them.

1. His conditioning is highly effective. Only two Otaku I know of have broken it, Babel and Sebastian One of whom, Sebastian, never went through the full conditioning process. i.e.: Banded ceremony

2. If Deus created Otaku that were able to operate outside the SCIRE they would have been useful for getting agents outside the Arc. Any sort of backgroud check would make "Regular" Otaku stick out like a sore thumb.

Although there are only two points, it sums my point. There is no reason not to create versatile Otaku.....and many reasons to create them. Unless I'm missing some obvious point, logic dictates that the reason Deus didn't create "regular" Otaku was because he couldn't.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jul 14 2004, 03:51 PM

It was my understanding that at the start he couldn't trust "people" (Just look what Ankei did) and only created limited Otaku at the start to "play safe" since even Dues might not of been sure how good his conditioning is (more so since one of his first, turned against him) only later on did he start to "trust" his Otaku and create some that were more flexable.

Offcause this is all just my opinion

Posted by: CoalHeart Jul 14 2004, 04:08 PM

Who says otaku know anything about human interaction? Charisma 8 doesn't mean much.

It's not like physical beauty, or how nice you smile at people, or just that cool vibe that you put out that gives you that Charisma 8. For Otaku Charisma doesn't equate to 8 Charisma elf Fixer.

Charisma 8 for a Fixer =
Smooth character, Cool factor, sweet talking, a very good smell, personality, beauty, that jen ne se qua (french spelling is not my forte)
(You can be a butt ugly fixer, yet have a way of talking to people that puts them on good terms with you, or just are really likable, even though your face could curdle milk)

Charisma 8 for a Shaman =
Incredibly strong force of personality. Affinity with spirits. To a lesser extent beauty, or coolness factor.
(Remember you can be a crotchety ugly mean bastard to anyone and everyone alive, but still have an 8 charisma for dealing with spirits)

Charisma 8 for an Otaku =
???? A bunch of matrix stuff.
Doesn't mean anything about how cool, pretty, or strong their real world personality is. Or how well they can deal with spirits.

Most people would find the childness of them to either be endearing, or annoying enough to shoot them in the face.

Their charisma isn't ment to be a global stat it's ment for matrix stuff.
Otherwise they're more effective at fighting spirits than most mages/shamans/adepts are. Will of 8 means 8 dice to attack tn 4. with charisma 8 M damage. Most normal mages shamans and adepts have less dice to throw.



Then again I'm just biased against Otaku in general.
I hate the idea of a super decker walking around with only a datajack as his only bit of cyberware and a compact fold up sat-uplink in his pocket. You can't procecute them under the law, as they don't have illegal programs, or cyberdecks. They can walk into any corp building semi-legally and not worry about MADs or being searched.

Posted by: mfb Jul 14 2004, 04:23 PM

um, right. the Charisma stat has absolutely nothing to do with human interaction. i'm going to let the hilarity of that statement stand on its own, i think.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 14 2004, 04:24 PM

Posted by: Cain Jul 14 2004, 08:27 PM