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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Electro Magnetic Pulse
Posted by: Plastic Rat Jul 11 2004, 07:12 AM
I recall reading something about shielding for cyber from EMPs, but can't find it. I've trawled through Man & Machine, no luck. My rationale is that it HAS to exist.
Can anyone remember reading about it, in what book was it etc?
Also, anyone have any house rules for it? (Looks both ways for players entering the thread.)
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 11 2004, 07:16 AM
I assume all cyberware to be intrinsically shielded from EMP, as its really not hard to accomplish.
Posted by: kevyn668 Jul 11 2004, 07:16 AM
IIRC there are no canon rules for EMPs...but I don't have the SSG or SOTA:2063. 
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Jul 11 2004, 08:40 AM
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander @ Jul 11 2004, 02:16 AM) |
| I assume all cyberware to be intrinsically shielded from EMP, as its really not hard to accomplish. |
Well, you do kinda have to worry about anything with a direct link to the surrounding air, like cyberlimbs and maybe datajacks, but yeah, most of the internal 'ware will be protected by the giant Faraday sack of conductive saltwater we call a body.
Anything that can overwhelm *that* bit of shielding would probably kill the person anyway, and at that point the cyber's warranty is probably up anyway. 
Posted by: BGMFH Jul 11 2004, 10:18 AM
Tech in SR is mostly Optical Based, removing EMPs from the mix.
Posted by: Accel Jul 11 2004, 11:54 AM
Well, as a means for information transfer, alright. But no engine oder servo is driven by light. And there is no way for the neural pathways to accept optical input.
Ergo, cyberware, especially interface tech and sensor tech, but motion tech as well, needs at least some electrical conduits.
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 11 2004, 12:14 PM
[Nevermind.]
Posted by: Plastic Rat Jul 11 2004, 12:44 PM
So, is there something ELSE that would be devastating to electronics and especially cyber that could be used in a portable, semi-explosive capacity. Don't be an ass and say something like ALL explosions, strong enough, will have that effect.
I want something that will have the same effect as an EMP. Shutting down and hindering electronics randomly/globally in it's radius (10 metres is good).
Other thing, this is new to me, cyber is earthed by your body?!? Explain? I'm not sure EXACTLY in scientific terms what an EMP is, I just know that in Cyberpunk, armored monsters would scream like little girls when you threw one near them.
Posted by: Cray74 Jul 11 2004, 01:41 PM
| QUOTE (Plastic Rat) |
| I recall reading something about shielding for cyber from EMPs, but can't find it. I've trawled through Man & Machine, no luck. My rationale is that it HAS to exist. |
Look in the beginning of SR3, in the history section. Around 2004 or 2005, optical computer chips immune to EMP are developed.
EMP is basically a pulse of electromagnetic radiation (i.e., radio waves, microwaves, x-rays, gamma-rays, etc.) that generate substantial electrical currents in conductors. Essentially, any conductor gets turned into an antenna. If the conductor is small enough relative to the currents pumped up by the EMP (microchip wiring is very vulnerable), the currents can cause local burn-outs due to plain old resistive heating.
For a spiffy anti-cyberware attack, consider big ole tasers or electrical attacks. Of course, that'll be dangerous to anyone.
Also recall when you start tossing anti-cyberware weaponry around, players may get annoyed at their expensive losses.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 11 2004, 04:02 PM
| QUOTE (Eyeless Blond) |
| Well, you do kinda have to worry about anything with a direct link to the surrounding air, like cyberlimbs and maybe datajacks, but yeah, most of the internal 'ware will be protected by the giant Faraday sack of conductive saltwater we call a body. Anything that can overwhelm *that* bit of shielding would probably kill the person anyway, and at that point the cyber's warranty is probably up anyway. |
Eh, just assume a faraday cage or equivalent is encorporated into the outer structure of external ware, or that the important bits (motors and processors) are shielded if you dont like that. For things like dermal plating/sheathing it shouldnt matter, anyway.
A datajack is a somewhat more interesting problem, as it potentially allows EMP to bypass the protection the natural protection possessed by the human body and affect someone's brain. That seems problematic. However, I dont have a big problem saying that they figured something out in that regard.
Posted by: Siege Jul 11 2004, 05:25 PM
CP2020 had rules for proofing electronics and ware against EMP attacks, but as it has been pointed out earlier, SR 'netics are immune to EMP weapons.
Granted, a strong enough EMP weapon will still frag with optical systems, but by that point it'll mess with the wetware just as much.
-Siege
Posted by: kevyn668 Jul 11 2004, 06:20 PM
So, are there rules for EMPs?
Posted by: Siege Jul 11 2004, 06:29 PM
In SR? None that I am aware of.
As per Canon, EMP weapons are ineffective since "everything" is optical now. 
Does the reasoning hold water? Several threads have decided not, but on a strictly canonical level...
-Siege
Posted by: last_of_the_great_mikeys Jul 11 2004, 06:49 PM
Look under the lightning bolt elemental effects if ya wanna make up some rules for it.
Here's what it says.
| QUOTE |
| "Lightning can short out or overload electronics (with -1 to the equipment's resistance) and may ignite flammable materials(like fire spells above). Metallic armour provides no protection, but special insulation or lack of grounding (a flying or levitating target, for example) may reduce the power of the attack at the gamemaster's discretion." |
Next, let's move on to Man and Machine, where they talk about stress points to implants. On page 126 it says,
| QUOTE |
| "Whenever an implant or attribute takes stress, the player must make a stress test" |
| QUOTE |
| "Gamemasters may also require stress tests in situations in which the implant or attribute is subject to extreme conditions." |
On page 127 of M&M it refers to electrical damage.
| QUOTE |
| "Attacks that cause electrical damage automatically effect cyberwear and may even damage more than one system simultaneously. This includes damage from tasers, stun batons, electrified fences, electrical critter power, elemental manipulation spells and so on. "For each wound suffered from an electrical attack by a character with cyberwear, apply the wound effect as described in Determine System Affected and roll an additional D6; on a result of 1 or 2, the attack damages another piece of cyberwear." |
It goes on and on, but you get the point.
Now, the stress rules state that an implant rolls a number of dice vs. a target number equal to the amount of stress points that the implant has acumulated. One success is enough to prevent system failure. Higher grade cyberwear gets more dice to roll. It pays to start off with alphawear or to buy beta/deltawear.
Now, you can extrapolate from this. An electro magnetic pulse would definitely affect cyberwear, leaving the character unharmed. Determine the number of stress points taken and have the cyberwear roll dice based on the cyberwear grade. If he gets all failures, the cyberwear is fragged! Voila...EMP. Vs. Cyberwear rules!
Posted by: RangerJoe Jul 11 2004, 07:22 PM
A very well reasoned point. A good way to deal with EMP and other electromagnetic phenomena is to recognize that in canon SR:
*(most) metals are still electroconductive
*ferromagnetic metals can still be magnetized (ah, cybermagnets and hand-grenades...)
*all computing is optically based (re-reading VR 2.0.... all the talk aboout uncooked crystal lattices reminds of of Zardoz...)
Posted by: Siege Jul 11 2004, 07:25 PM
I should mention that I'm all for EMP still being useful and viable as a _completely_ optical system would be amazingly difficult to construct.
Although, it would explain the SR price list. 
-Siege
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 11 2004, 09:14 PM
I recall in one of the older books speculating about the effects of sonic attacks on the optical chips used by electronics in SR. Was anything ever developed further on that?
-karma
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 11 2004, 09:15 PM
Theres a difference between lightning and EMP. Lightning *transfers* an existing electric current to a target, whereas EMP *induces* a current in the target. It is relatively easy to shield against EMP, as I've said. All you need is to surround the object you want to protect with copper mesh (which doesnt even have to be particularly fine, i think the holes can be as big as 1cm) and youre set. It really wouldnt be a big deal to encorporate such a thing into external cyberware, and internal 'ware would be protected by the existence of a body surrounding it.
The same safeguards against EMP will not, however, necessarily work against direct electrical stimulation. If you are hit by a taser/lightning bolt/whatever, that current has already entered your body - bypassing that level of protection. That current can travel through your nervous system and into any ware that is DNI controlled - hence the effects of electrical attacks on cyber. (though I'd still say it would not be able to affect anything lacking DNI control, as those systems could be self-contained and insulated against such things at minimal cost)
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 11 2004, 09:37 PM
What would lack neural interface? Cranial bombs? [Edit] And bone lacing, and some other structural cyberware… yeah, ignore that.
~J
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 11 2004, 09:43 PM
Bone Lacing, for example. I dont really feel like going through and picking out every piece of internal 'ware that wouldnt necessarily be neurally-linked, so I'll just say that there are probably a few more that are at least arguable.
And I would say that it would be a good thing for cranial bombs to not be affected by electrical attacks... wouldn't you?
Posted by: Da9iel Jul 12 2004, 07:36 AM
I don't know. I'd love for my cranial bomb detonator circuit to get fried. Just don't cook off the bomb 
Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jul 12 2004, 08:18 AM
How difficult is it to create an EMP, anyway. According to every movie I've seen (yeah, that's right, I trust the screen), it's required something along the lines of a nuclear explosion. I'm sure that's not the only way to do it, but would it be feasible to do it with something you mount on your shoulder and aim?
Posted by: Zazen Jul 12 2004, 08:40 AM
You can download plans for EMP guns off the internet, along with plans for a device to melt people through their telephone handset, gadgets that make payphones spit up all their quarters which are in a one-way inaccessible safe, free energy devices which work off alien semen, and the infamous Blotto Box which can liquify all phone lines on earth.
Posted by: Diesel Jul 12 2004, 09:02 AM
I believe the military was developing / has developed a munition designed to be delivered by missile or bomb with the primary effect of an EMP. It definitely wasn't a nuclear weapon, in the "kills everything" sense of the word. Google turns up a lot of conspiracy theories using my terms, so good luck!
Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Jul 12 2004, 09:34 AM
After an hour or so more thought I guess I do remember NATO dropping something that cut off large portions of the power grid in Belgrade, and there being a huge stink about it because it's inhumane to cut off power to the hospitals serving the area you're bombing (we bourgeois Westerners are really spoiled when it comes to war). But would something like this be feasible as a man-portable weapon? I mean outside of circles where alien semen is an energy source.
Posted by: Da9iel Jul 12 2004, 10:20 AM
IIRC the non-nuclear EMP was a 2000 lb. bomb (or some such fairly large bomb) surrounded by ferrous iron filings. The sudden expansion of the magnetic cloud of metal created the EMP. No, not man portable, but much better than fission--especially in the SR world where nukes seem to go funny.
Posted by: Thistledown Jul 12 2004, 03:52 PM
I've used emp's in my games plenty. We ruled that standard and alpha grade cyberw is not immune to it unless you paid more at installation. A guy carried a EMP generator around in the back of his special van, used it when needed.
Posted by: Nath Jul 12 2004, 05:18 PM
| QUOTE |
| After an hour or so more thought I guess I do remember NATO dropping something that cut off large portions of the power grid in Belgrade, and there being a huge stink about it because it's inhumane to cut off power to the hospitals serving the area you're bombing. But would something like this be feasible as a man-portable weapon? |
The 'something' was a bomb with a GPS and the coordinates of the local power station. Very efficient to cut off power
More seriously, those bomb were exploding above the station, causing no or limited blast, but spreading a large amount of conductive carbon filaments. This 'dust' is so thin it enters every transformers, causing short-circuit. No EMP involved. Obviously, you can keep the concept and reduce the size to make a man-portable missile, shell or grenade. The area of effect and the efficiency would be obviously affected. Plus, it would work well on power line and other big electrical equipment, who are relatively exposed, but a lot less, if at all, on small cased electroni devices.
For non-nuclear EMP weapons, I don't remember how you can make 'bomb' or area-effect, but a simple radar can become a directional EMP gun if you increase the power charge a lot beyond the normal use.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 12 2004, 07:41 PM
| QUOTE (KarmaInferno) |
| I recall in one of the older books speculating about the effects of sonic attacks on the optical chips used by electronics in SR. Was anything ever developed further on that? -karma |
I guess the answer to my question is "no", then.
Ah well, no frightening the bejesus out of my players by casually asking them to look up a page number.
-karma
Posted by: Tomahawk Jul 12 2004, 07:55 PM
There are indeed EMP weapons that the military can use. Not to mention EMP effects that are generated off of technology similar to radar. You are just creating a pulse of energy at a specific wavelength.
Actually just the higher powered radar on certain aircraft were capable of frying electronics as well. This was why the Russians continued to use redundant mechanical backups in their aircraft rather than pure fly by wire.
Posted by: Siege Jul 13 2004, 04:03 AM
Sorry Karma - it's interesting speculation but while a crystal can technically be shattered if you hit the right note, I don't recall of any sonic weapons in SR or any dicussion of same.
-Siege
Posted by: Crusher Bob Jul 13 2004, 05:40 AM
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/blu-114.htm Graphite bomb.
Posted by: Tzeentch Jul 13 2004, 07:07 AM
-- Actually, the Russian engineers who examined the streamers claim they are fiberglass impregnated with aluminum (and the case markings are CBU-102, and as they have pics of the munitions I'm inclined to believe them).
http://www.cadre.maxwell.af.mil/warfarestudies/iwac/Downloads/IW140%20Reading.doc
-- As for EMP against cyberware, well, realistically the systems HAVE to be opto-electronic in origin or a lot of that lame-o ICE wouldn't work like it says. This means that the computing and storage elements may be optical, but the power supply and some electronics are still using good old electrons.
-- But also realistically, a radiofrequency/EMP weapon that could affect the electronics would probably have to be so powerful that your cyberware wigging out is the least of your immediate problems. We're talking full-on High-Power Microwave Akshun™ in the dozens of GW range (peak power, probably extremely short pulse durations except for ultra-wideband explosive-driven generators).
Posted by: Nath Jul 13 2004, 07:12 AM
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Sorry Karma - it's interesting speculation but while a crystal can technically be shattered if you hit the right note, I don't recall of any sonic weapons in SR or any dicussion of same. |
I do remember for a sonic weapon, as far as I know the only one in SR. There might have been some confusion with the comments behind, who deal with another weapon.
| QUOTE (Corporate Download) |
| Knight Errant has been working hard at developing new non-lethal weaponry, partly in bid to win the orichalcum left in Dunkelzahn's will to the first company to invent a non-lethal weapon that is affordable and accurate to a hundred meters. > KE already submitted one claim: a riot club with a devic built-in that can generate a directional sonic blast. The harmonics stunned targets, and caused them to suffer incapacitating nausea and cramping. Nadja Daviar blocked it, claiming its accuracy and range failed to meet the Draco Fundation's requirements. Despite the setback, Knight Errant is still working on the project, and it may eventually become a staple of the Knight Errant arsenal. > Errant Knight > Sounds nasty, but I'd rather face that than the previous prototype they had on the drawing board: some sort of backpack/rifle unit that ionized air along a targeting path, then released a bolt of electricity at the target. They were having quite a few problems with manufacturing costs however, not to mention its unpleasant effects on targets with cyberware. > Lab Rat |
Posted by: Nath Jul 13 2004, 07:19 AM
Oh, by the way...
| QUOTE (Rigger 3) |
| AN/EDQ-12 AIR-DEFENSE NAVAL DIRECTED-ENERGY WEAPON SYSTEM (ANDREWS) The AN-EDQ-12 Air-Defense Naval Directed Energy Weapon System (ANDREWS for short) is an energy weapon designed to protect a warship against incoming missiles. ANDREWS use a particle beam to discharge megavolts of electrons charges at the incoming missiles. If the ANDREWS scores a hit, the discharge ether fries the missile's control circuit, causing the missile to fall off target or to detonate in mid-flight. Either way, the ship is safe. ANDREWS may also be used to attack aircraft and surface ships. Due to its massive power requirements, it may be installed only on ships powered by nuclear power plants. |
Emphasis mine.
Posted by: Tzeentch Jul 13 2004, 07:53 AM
-- Some of the technical justifications in Rigger are shaky at best (requires a nuclear power plant for the ANDREWS? Bwah?). But in a world with Sparky IC who knows -- maybe it uses the particle beam as a carrier for some software that hacks into the missile control system
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 13 2004, 02:01 PM
| QUOTE (Tzeentch) |
| Some of the technical justifications in Rigger are shaky at best (requires a nuclear power plant for the ANDREWS? Bwah?). |
I, of course, understand nothing of how directed energy weapons supposedly work, but how much electricity (Watts) would you probably need to flash heat a cruise missile (the frontal area of which is pretty small) to 1000+ C in a fraction of a second at 5 kilometers?
I don't get how it could possibly cause the missile detonate in mid flight, though. Break apart, sure.
I haven't got a clue how much electricity the kinds of gas turbines warships have can put out, either. Helluva lot, I'd expect, but is it enough to power several of those ANDREWS? A Ticonderoga-sized cruiser could easily have half-a-dozen of them, firing them several hundred times in 10 seconds. Would the 4 General Electric LM-2500s be enough? Or do we credit that to überbatteries?
Posted by: Tzeentch Jul 13 2004, 06:16 PM
-- Well, depends on beam efficiency. But whatever it is you could use offtake power from conventional turbines to charge a capacitor/HPG/flywheel bank. Directly powering the beam from a reactor is probably not an efficient use of resources, especially if you want to have more then one.
| QUOTE |
| > KE already submitted one claim: a riot club with a devic built-in that can generate a directional sonic blast. The harmonics stunned targets, and caused them to suffer incapacitating nausea and cramping. Nadja Daviar blocked it, claiming its accuracy and range failed to meet the Draco Fundation's requirements. Despite the setback, Knight Errant is still working on the project, and it may eventually become a staple of the Knight Errant arsenal. > Errant Knight |
-- This exists, sort of, but it doesn't need to be built into a club. IT's one of the things that shows the shizoid nature of SR technology. To quote from a Jane's International Defense Review article titled "Between Baton and Bullet":
| QUOTE |
| In the late 1990s, Primex Physics International Company (now part of General Dynamics) demonstrated such an 'acoustic blaster' with a predicted effective range of 100-200m. The prototype employed a planar array of four acoustic devices, each driven by combustion-detonation devices, that could be fired separately or together. These generated an acoustic pressure of 165dB at a distance of 15m. Based on its testing, the company proposed an 'acoustic cannon' suitable for mounting on a vehicle such as a HMMWV. This would consist of 20-30 explosively driven acoustic sources, evenly distributed over an ellipse, firing simultaneously to generate a 'Mach disk' or 'acoustic soliton' that travels to the target. The ARL, with support from the US Army's Tank-automotive and Armaments Command's Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center (TACOM-ARDEC), has developed an alternative approach that produces impulsive sound waves by purely electrical means. Its Sequential Arc Discharge Acoustic Generator (SADAG) uses high-voltage capacitors to produce discharges between electrodes installed in an insulating tube that is closed at one end and open at the other. The arcs ionize the air within the tube, which is typically 25cm long by 5cm in diameter, causing a sudden expansion that generates a pressure pulse. This process is repeated at rates of 20Hz or above to output an acoustic waveform. Careful tuning of the SADAG results in the formation of toroidal vortices, slightly larger than the diameter of the tube, with a linear velocity of approximately 50m/s. These could be employed in 'vortex guns' as outlined above. In January 2002, American Technology Corp (ATC) signed a co-operative research and development agreement with TACOM-ARDEC relating to joint work on the company's directed acoustics technologies for applications such as NLWs, psychological warfare and secure communications. Technologies covered by the agreement include ATC's HyperSonic Sound (HSS) and Directed Stick Radiator (DSR). HSS exploits a property of air known as non-linearity. As the pressure rises and falls in a normal sound wave, such as that caused by someone talking, the non-linear nature of the air itself results in the generation of new frequencies within the wave. An understanding of the way in which air behaves allows these frequencies to be predicted. In an HSS system, sound from an audio program source (such as a compact-disc player or microphone) is converted to a highly complex ultrasonic signal by a signal processor before being amplified and emitted into the air by a transducer. Since the ultrasonic energy is highly directional, it forms a virtual column of sound directly in front of the emitter. All along that column, the air recreates the sound that was originally converted to an ultrasonic wave (which is itself inaudible). This recreated sound remains tightly locked within the column of ultrasonic energy, rather than spreading out as is the case with a conventional loudspeaker, and can therefore be directed to a specific point in space at the target. HSS can deliver sound over extended ranges (several hundred meters) at volumes of up to approximately 145dB. This is sufficient to induce intense pain, and often nausea. The DSR is a portable, battery-operated device - enclosed in a tube approximately 1m long by 4cm in diameter - that uses a high-intensity acoustic pressure wave to disorient and disable targeted individuals at shorter ranges. The weapon is highly directional, and could be clipped to a rifle. |
| QUOTE |
| > Sounds nasty, but I'd rather face that than the previous prototype they had on the drawing board: some sort of backpack/rifle unit that ionized air along a targeting path, then released a bolt of electricity at the target. They were having quite a few problems with manufacturing costs however, not to mention its unpleasant effects on targets with cyberware. > Lab Rat |
-- The bit about shooting electricity is probably not entirely useful, but otherwise it's similar to an electrolaser or XADS.
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996014
Posted by: Black Isis Jul 13 2004, 07:11 PM
I will point out that "fry the missile's control circuitry" does not necessarily mean that it zaps it with electricity. Anyone who has experienced the wonders of a badly seated heat sink on a CPU can tell you that sheer heat can do a pretty good job of frying circuitry, and I imagine a particle beam would do a pretty good job of generating heat (of course, at the temperatures you're talking, the missile probably loses structural integrity and splashes into the water anyway, but hey....). Detonation could be just because the proximity sensor is fried too, I suppose. I'd agree that needing a reactor is probably not necessary, although not having one may limit the recharge time for the capacitor (and I imagine reduce the speed/range of the ship while it was trying to recharge).
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