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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Smartlink and Simsense

Posted by: Red Swami Jul 13 2004, 05:02 PM

Hey all,

Long-time GM (first-ed Shadowrun!), sometimes reader (where'd those clue files go?), and first-time poster, so bear with me.

Having GMed for several years, I finally get the opportunity to play a character in somebody else's campaign. I've been making a fairly solid chacter (I like to think so, anyway), when I became acquainted with a whole new series of char-gen questions that none of my players ever asked me. I've managed to find answers to most, except for these two:

1) I know that smartlinks do nothing for improving target numbers when dual-wielding pistols, but what if I wanted to have a second smartlink on my off-hand for doing things like changing firing modes and ejecting clips? Would I just need the extra pad installed, the pad and another limited simsense rig, or an entirely separate smartlink processor from the one in my primary hand?

2) Has it ever been canonically established what the extent of the SL limited simsense wiring is? For example, does it provide tactile feedback, or is it mostly for getting input on the position and orientation of the gun? I've seen http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearmac/target_d/smartlink.html rules, which I personally like, but I'm talking about what's been established in the canon here.

2a) (Okay, so I lied--three questions) Following on the simsense thing, to what extent do VCR's and skillwires provide the same sort of limited simsense as the smartlink wiring? If the SL simsense were just for reading the position of the body, I'd think a VCR would do the same job (and thus save me .1 essence). Similarly, skillwires strike me as something that would be used for both body control and body reading, which might have the same effect.

Anything I can do to reduce loss of precious essence, after all.

Posted by: tjn Jul 13 2004, 06:03 PM

Heyos and welcome to Dumpshock, as for your questions...

1. If you're using routers, then I think you might need to connect the extra induction pad in the off hand to the Smartlink. One can make the argument that the SL is assumed to connect to it, but then again, one can make the argument that the SL is only supposed to connect to one induction pad.

The terminology of routers is "Characters may wish to establish a data link between two (or more) pieces of cyberware that don't normally 'talk' to each other." Whether the extra induction pad falls under that is a judgement call. Literal interpretation would require the router, however I don't think many people would insist on it.

I personally don't use routers and just say they "talk" to each other just fine.

2. I don't believe so, however I'm a bit lacking on my Shadowrun novel knowledge base. Nothing in the base rules IIRC.

2a. A VCR works. For a rigger, all one needs cyberware wise is the processor (0.25 essence) to use a smartlink through a vehicle.

Skillwires don't work like that. They don't input simulated senses, they're "neuro-muscular controllers." In essence it's not simulating anything; the character actually has the muscle memory required to do the action.

Posted by: Cain Jul 13 2004, 06:24 PM

1. Just the pad. You can also switch between "active" guns with a free action, allowing you the widest possible array of ammunition types.

2. Not exactly, but it apparently reads your body positioning and feeds that data to the processor. Since a full simrig allows you to not just get basic position, but all sensory input plus all emotion, I'd say that the limited rig can only do orientation.

2a. A VCR is a total body override, just like decking. There's a +8 modifier to attempting anything physical, just like if you were decking or slotting a simchip. It doesn't detect the body at all, it simply overrides it.

As far as the skillwires go, they apparently rely on some different kind of feedback system. No luck there, I'm afraid.

3. If you want to same some essence, but all your 'ware as used alphaware. It comes out at normal price, but gives you the reduce essence cost.

4. No pooftas!

Posted by: nezumi Jul 13 2004, 07:58 PM

1. I think this question has already been answered well. Just a pad, and possibly a router, depending on the GM (personally, I hate routers, so I'd say just a pad. Routers and empty clips are details I generally ignore as a GM.

2. I understood what Cain is saying as being the best description out there. It senses your balance, your body positions, etc. I don't believe it actually makes your body move in any way.

2a. I would say that anything that uses a full simsense rig would work as the limited simsense rig required by a SL. That would include VCRs, Skillwires and simsense recorders. Yes, a VCR has the RAS override, so you don't actually get input from your body, but I believe that the simsense rig still works both ways. This is even more true with skillwires, the chipped skills need to move your body in a certain way, but its a relativistic way. It has to build off of where the target is, how your body is positioned, etc. Plus, IMO, if you're paying 3-5 essence for a piece of ware, I have no problem with giving you the benefit of the doubt when looking at another .1 essence.

Posted by: kevyn668 Jul 13 2004, 08:15 PM

Just the pad. It doesn't mention anything in the CC or M&M about needing a router. I hate routers, too.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 15 2004, 02:05 AM

QUOTE (Cain)

2a. A VCR is a total body override, just like decking. There's a +8 modifier to attempting anything physical, just like if you were decking or slotting a simchip. It doesn't detect the body at all, it simply overrides it.

That's true when you're Rigging. However, it is canon that parts of a VCR serve as replacements for the limited simsense rig, thus not requiring it to be purchased separately.

~J

Posted by: Cain Jul 15 2004, 03:56 AM

QUOTE

That's true when you're Rigging. However, it is canon that parts of a VCR serve as replacements for the limited simsense rig, thus not requiring it to be purchased separately.

*flips open M&M*

I don't see it on p. 32. Are you positive? The rule in R3 only applies when jacked in.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 15 2004, 04:14 AM

You sure on that? My books are somewhere in the void of house renovation, so I can't check right now…

~J

Posted by: Red Swami Jul 15 2004, 01:21 PM

I saw the part on R3-32 (if it's the part I'm remembering correctly--for some reason I''m not allowed to bring my SR books in to work) which specifically references effects while rigging, but I didn''t see anything about using the VCR as a simsense rig in meatspace. As far as I could tell it's completely unaddressed, but the posts here have been vastly useful.

Posted by: Lantzer Jul 15 2004, 02:25 PM

A couple of points:

1) I think R3 mentions that the simsense protocols used in rigging are different than those used in decking or sims. So if a simrig would work, a VCR would not. I might be getting confused with the comunications protocols. I do remember that a decker needs a special emulator to understand rigger input.

2) A VCR has nothing to record the rigger's senses or movements. The whole point of rigging is to overwrite those senses with vehicle data. A VCR is almost the total sensory opposite of a simrig, functionally speaking.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 15 2004, 10:40 PM

But the VCR also takes the input of the user and sends it to the vehicle. If all it did was overwrite the user's sensations, you'd still have to steer the car by hand.

~J

Posted by: Req Jul 15 2004, 11:02 PM

Smartlinks can provide tactile feedback, as evidenced from Hatchetman's story in Cybertechnology (now I'm dating myself a bit) where he mentions that his first-model smartlink signalled a "safety off" condition by making the gun feel hot in his hand. At least, that's what I remember...

Posted by: hobgoblin Jul 16 2004, 12:04 AM

i have allways wonderd why a decker can get away with a datajack while a rigger needs a big VCR...

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jul 16 2004, 12:29 AM

and why a rigger cant get the VCR built into vehicles (no nremovable) and jack in

Posted by: Necro Tech Jul 16 2004, 12:40 AM

Deckers get away with a datajack because their interface is fictional. All things DNI like simsense don't require realworld responses, hence its location in the upper braincase. VCR's require a huge interface because you are controlling a three dimensional object (usually really, really fast) on an instinctual level. Thats why riggers have their ports at the base of their skulls next to the medula.

Posted by: Cain Jul 16 2004, 06:15 AM

Kage: I checked the book, and it indicated that a VCR only doubles while jacked in. A VCR also acts in a different way than a simrig does, and VCR's don't have a "partial playback" mode.

Posted by: Lantzer Jul 16 2004, 03:08 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jul 15 2004, 10:40 PM)

But the VCR also takes the input of the user and sends it to the vehicle. If all it did was overwrite the user's sensations, you'd still have to steer the car by hand.

~J

Partially true. Let's look at it this way:

A person's nervous system has inputs and outputs. For the person, the inputs are sensory data, and the outputs are control impulses.

A simsense rig copies the sensory input and stores it or transmits it, without interfering with those signals in the person's body. It is not equipped to record or interfere with control signals.

A simsense player overwrites the sensory inputs from a data record, and interrupts the control signals coming from the brain to keep the person from injuring themselves (because he might have reactions to the stimuli he's getting). The control signals not recorded, because they are of no interest (He's watching a show). Likewise, the person's natural sense data are not recorded.

A VCR overwrites the sensory data as well with signals from another device. The control signals from the person's brain are recorded for device control, but blocked from the person's body, to keep them from injuring themselves.

A VCR can't be used as a simsense rig because it is not equipped to record sensory tracks from the person's body. A VCR has no use for a person's natural senses.

The smartlinks' limited simsense rig is used for kinestesia (sp?) - telling the processor where your limbs are, so it knows where the gun is pointing. The only reason a VCR substitutes for one when jacked into a vehicle, is because it is the vehicle sensory track that's coming throught the VCR that's being used by the smartlink processor - not the person's.

You could look at a VCR and simsense rig as complementary, non-overlapping peices of equipment.
With both of them, you'd be the total simsense man. You could make a simsense record of a guy rigging a vehicle.

Posted by: nezumi Jul 16 2004, 08:16 PM

QUOTE (Cain)

Kage: I checked the book, and it indicated that a VCR only doubles while jacked in. A VCR also acts in a different way than a simrig does, and VCR's don't have a "partial playback" mode.

Do you have a page number for that (or at least what book I should look in?) I'd be interested in checking that.

While I agree with Lantzer's post, from an engineering point of view, is the wiring to record something the body feels that different from creating an artificial sense? It seems to me that it wouldn't be especially difficult, especially with an essence cost of 5 (that's some pretty hard core brain wiring right there).

I also still feel that, in the name of game balance, letting someone who already paid 5 essence for one system get a .1 bonus from a related system that's considered a staple of survival in the outside world (where they're really pretty darn weak to begin with) a good thing.

Posted by: Cain Jul 17 2004, 01:28 AM

QUOTE

Do you have a page number for that (or at least what book I should look in?) I'd be interested in checking that.

Don't have it in front of me, but R3 pg 30-something, I think.

Posted by: Necro Tech Jul 17 2004, 01:46 AM

Its page 27. VCR acts as limited simsense only when jacked in.