Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Armor's mostly useless without Bod to back it up

Posted by: Da9iel Jul 14 2004, 08:19 AM

It seems silly to me that a Bod 1 sissy in full armor has absolutely no chance of soaking damage. I've thought about adding something like half the rating to body for damage resistance rolls. Then again, this could unbalance the game. What do y'all think? Does anyone else have an idea?

Posted by: ShadowGhost Jul 14 2004, 08:59 AM

Anyone who takes a body of one can expect a *very* short life.

There's always combat pool to help soak the damage, or better yet, dodge. One of our elves learned the hard way that mucho armor is useless when you get hit with an assault cannon. (Two of our elves have very high quickness and wear tons of armor - they never dodge "because the numbers are better just to soak." Bean counting don't mean crap if it's APDS, AV, Assault Cannon or sniper rifle.

Having armor rating to help soak the damage will make some characters very difficult to kill, most notably trolls, and anyone with a quickness of nine - with cyberware it's easy to make a human with a quickness of 10, a body of 12, and a total armor of 8/10 without any quickness/combat pool penalty.

5 quickness + 4 levels muscle toner + enhanced Attribute edge (+1) 10 quickness
6 body + Titanium Bone Lacing (+2) + Dermal Sheathing 3 (+4) 12 body

The Cyberware also gives you 1/3 armor

Winter Coverall (4/4) + Secure Jacket (5/3) for 8/8 + Rapid Transit Helmet - total armor 8/10.

Posted by: OurTeam Jul 14 2004, 09:21 AM

House rules are not common for this. This is just part of the game.

Posted by: The White Dwarf Jul 14 2004, 10:18 AM

You wont find any house rules or even logic. Non-Hardened Armor only lessens the blows sustained in combat, it doesnt totally stop them. Thus, it only loweres the tns involved. The average human is body 3, and if you think about just how outta shape most people are thats kinda startling. Body 1 would be like a terminally ill person. Most Shadowrunners would probably be in half decent shape if theyre the kind doing gun work on site, which sort of matches the fact most characters have decent Body scores. Armor is incredibly important, without it youll die fast. But short of hardened armor, it shouldnt make a character invincible or even sustainable. If you have Body 1 and you get shot, you better hope combat pool will save you...

Posted by: Cray74 Jul 14 2004, 10:32 AM

QUOTE (Da9iel)

Well, there's the SR 1st Edition approach.

Armor values were lower, but they represented automatic soak roll successes rather than power reduction.

OTOH, weapons had variable staging. Rather than requiring 2 successes to raise or lower a wound level, it depended on the weapon. Assault cannons had a damage code of (IIRC) 10D4, meaning it took 4 successes to stage up or down damage, and that weapons with a staging of 1 were both easy to resist but potentially very lethal if they had a high power.

In SR1, I was quite happy with armor jackets and Body values of ~4-5, sometimes backed with helmets, as standard runner armor. After my first session of SR2 (using a SR1-->SR2 translated character), I had my PC run out and grab heavy security armor.

Posted by: shadd4d Jul 14 2004, 10:34 AM

This is one reason having a Body of 1 as an otaku gives many pause. Seriously, you're expecting too much from the Armor.

Don

Posted by: toturi Jul 14 2004, 10:40 AM

So a Body of 2 doesn't? Hello? Earth to shadd4d...

For me, a Body of 3 is minimum for a normal runner. Body 2 is not much good, might as well go Body 1.

Posted by: Da9iel Jul 14 2004, 10:50 AM

Thanks all for the input. I was just curious how others saw it. I had pretty much decided to leave it alone as a quirk to live with anyway.

Posted by: shadd4d Jul 14 2004, 10:51 AM

Body 1 means you're taking it. Body 2 means "you might have a chance to mitigate something or stage down, depending on your luck." Body 2 just means staying in a bulletproof box but you can come out occassionally. Body 1 means you're the boy (or girl) in the bulletproof bubble.

But yes, Body 3 is the minimum for a normal runner, I agree. I've seen Body 2 be slightly effective (more than Body 1). But still, Body 3 is the minimum.

Don

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 14 2004, 02:26 PM

QUOTE (The White Dwarf)

You wont find any house rules or even logic. Non-Hardened Armor only lessens the blows sustained in combat, it doesnt totally stop them.

This is indeed the rules mechanic and the excuse for it. Do not be fooled into thinking that getting hit square in a plated vest (NIJ level III or higher) with a shotgun lead slug is lethal, or even very dangerous, IRL.

My house ruling is that a character gains one bonus die in the Damage Resistance Test for every point by which armor modifies Power below 2. Armor 7 vs 7M SMG = +2 dice on DamRes Test. Regardless, armor which doesn't drop the DamRes TN below 4 (and thus make DamRes a better use for CP than Dodging) is not very useful for people with very low BODs.

On the other hand, Body should be very important for anyone who might expect to end up in a combat situation. Since SR doesn't have fatigue (fortunately, some might say), it's a good thing there is at least some reason for most characters to get a decent Body.

Posted by: Siege Jul 14 2004, 04:49 PM

I kinda hate to mention this as I really dislike it, but SR is abstract.

Ya get hit with a bullet and it hammers your kevlar.

You take damage from any combination of:

1. Maybe the bullet punched through the armor
2. Maybe the bruise of the bullet being stopped by the armor hurt you

There was an incident of a cop dying because while his vest stopped the shotgun blast, it didn't do anything to deter the massive bruising resulting from the pellets slamming into the kevlar.

So a really wimpy person with a Body of 1 gets shot while wearing kevlar - yes, the bullet probably won't go through the vest as most standard vests are rated at least to a 9mm. But the Body 1 person is gonna have one hell of a bruise just because they aren't particularly resilient or "tough."

And, as others have noted, if you have a Body of 1, you really have no business being in the field, armor or not.

-Siege

Edit: What would you rate Class 3 body armor in SR terms? More of a light security grade, maybe?

The mechanic isn't designed to be a factor of reality insomuch as a consistent means of dealing with the subject matter.

Posted by: Luke Hardison Jul 14 2004, 05:05 PM

Raygun's site provides a list of NIJ rated pieces and his version of thier SR counterparts http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/armor/navframe.html. I belive that level III armor is 8/6, by his definitions, which makes pretty good sense.

Posted by: Siege Jul 14 2004, 05:22 PM

That works - insofar as the SR combat mechanic will permit it to work without dismantling the abstract nature of combat.

-Siege

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 14 2004, 05:27 PM

I only commented on what The White Dwarf said about non-Hardened Body Armor in SR. I am fully aware of all the things Armor and Power and Damage might represent in canon SR, and much of the things they may not but do anyway. I have been on the receiving end of dozens of rants about how "SR armor and damage rules kinda make a sort of sense if you look at them like this". And I sorta agree, I just can't look at them like that anymore.

QUOTE (Siege)

There was an incident of a cop dying because while his vest stopped the shotgun blast, it didn't do anything to deter the massive bruising resulting from the pellets slamming into the kevlar.

There is? I was not aware of this. NIJ has repeatedly stated that no police officer has ever died from being hit by a firearm in a vest that stops the projectiles within the NIJ standard error parameters (can't remember the backface deformation standards right now).

NIJ has stated even more often that no police officer has ever even been incapacitated after being hit in a vest that is rated to protect against the specific type of projectile with which he/she was hit.

Giving SR armor ratings for RL armor types is meaningless if you do not completely rework the Powers (and preferably introduce several other factors into the determination of penetration of SR firearms) of SR guns. Utterly meaningless. Consider the 9M of the Heavy Pistols against the 7S of small-caliber sporting rifles, for starters.

QUOTE (Siege)

So a really wimpy person with a Body of 1 gets shot while wearing kevlar - yes, the bullet probably won't go through the vest as most standard vests are rated at least to a 9mm. But the Body 1 person is gonna have one hell of a bruise just because they aren't particularly resilient or "tough."

Apart from the above -- the perfect, or near-perfect if the shotgun story you related is true, performance of NIJ standard armor -- you've got the fact that killing a human with a 2" temporary depression of soft tissue in a very restricted area is, errm, difficult. Were this not the case, Asps would be a heck of a lot more lethal.

When such an attack does not result from "being stopped by soft armor" or magic, it is always considered Stun in SR. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it goes to show how even SR designers don't really believe that a relatively minor blunt trauma is very lethal.

Posted by: booklord Jul 14 2004, 05:28 PM

The only house rule I have is that if when resisting damage if armor lowers the reistance target number below than the resistor gets a number of automatic successes equal to the difference bwtween 2 and the reistance target number. It's not much but it does prevent someone with a streetline palm pistol from hurting soomeone wearing full body armor. ( In other words it only counts in the most extreme cases )

Posted by: Siege Jul 14 2004, 05:58 PM

Heh, I appreciate the "if" clause. Tastefully done.

Let's assume I'm wrong until/unless I can find the documented story.

-Siege

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 14 2004, 06:46 PM

I'm definitely not saying it's not possible. Especially if it happened to be from behind -- spinal injury can be a bitch. All the bullshit about terminal ballistics and body armor simply make a sceptic out of anyone. I really am sorry for being blunt and a bit of a prick all the time, it's just that I really am a prick and I learned my English from... well, not discussing politely anyway.

Posted by: ShadowGhost Jul 14 2004, 09:29 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

If it's a sudden two-inch depression in the ribcage you've got shattered rib bones plowing into your lungs and other internal organs resulting in massive internal bleeding.

Bones can break with as little pressure as 8 PSI. I'd hate to imagine the force a full-bore shotgun blast can have against even a protected ribcage.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 15 2004, 04:15 AM

QUOTE (ShadowGhost)

If it's a sudden two-inch depression in the ribcage you've got shattered rib bones plowing into your lungs and other internal organs resulting in massive internal bleeding.

Broken rib bones, perhaps. Massive internal bleeding, not very likely. The dozens of police officers that have been hit by shotguns at very close ranges while wearing vests without sustaining significant blunt trauma testifies for that. Google for "Kevlar Survivors' Club" Shotgun.

Posted by: Siege Jul 15 2004, 05:04 AM

Oh, I realize and appreciate that.

And I am forced to admit that without a documentable and believeable source, it is safer to discount the story than to include it.

I promise, I'll look at some point. Life has been...hectic...at the moment.

-Siege

Posted by: hyzmarca Jul 15 2004, 05:10 AM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

QUOTE (ShadowGhost)

If it's a sudden two-inch depression in the ribcage you've got shattered rib bones plowing into your lungs and other internal organs resulting in massive internal bleeding.

It also depends on the guage of the shotgun and type of ammunition. 12-guage 00 Buckshot will cause significantly more damage than 16 guage birdshot. The former is the equivilant of being hit with 9 .33 slugs at almost exactly the same time. A 12-guage slug, on th eother hand, will simply destroy a conventional kevlar vest.

Here are some interesting links.

http://www.univrel.auburn.edu/multimedia/publications/LAweb/thomas.html

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotguns_protection_field.htm

http://www.dupont.com/kevlar/pdfs/24-357_IACP_US_Officers.pdf

http://www.polfed.org/0103vest-quest.pdf

Posted by: Da9iel Jul 15 2004, 05:43 AM

AE, booklord, nice rules (and very similar given the TN of 2 when AE's rule kicks in). I think I'll go with it. Thank you very much.

Posted by: The White Dwarf Jul 15 2004, 05:58 AM

Ya, I tried to phrase my post to fit the game's stance and not a RL stance. And I really appriciate your focus and restraint in the reply Austere.

But really, with the body rating scale in game and what its supposed to mean, Id never play a character with body under 4, unless I was playing an Otaku. And really Id never play one again; I did once to get it outta my system. Armor aside, whats the deal with body =p

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 15 2004, 03:18 PM

QUOTE (The White Dwarf)

And I really appriciate your focus and restraint in the reply Austere.

Well, I try. Found out long ago that many people are not particularly interested in the RL stance, so there's no point going on about that alone.

QUOTE (myzmarca)

The former is the equivilant of being hit with 9 .33 slugs at almost exactly the same time.

Fortunately it is the case that a single, 8.4mm, 54gr lead ball @ 1300-1400fps is easily stopped by an NIJ level IIIA vest with very little backface deformation. After all, that's 40% the weight of and much softer than the 124gr 9mmP FMJ @ 1400fps that the IIIA is guaranteed to stop with proven zero-lethality blunt trauma.

Regardless, I'm not ruling out the possibility that a police officer might have been killed by the blunt trauma of armor stopping a shotgun blast. Like I said, the spine could probably be seriously damaged by that. Or the hit could have occured very high near the throat, pushing something into the trachea.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

A 12-guage slug, on th eother hand, will simply destroy a conventional kevlar vest.

I've often wondered about that. Anyone got actual data on 12G slugs vs level IIIA vests?

12G 2-3/4" 1oz slug:
18.5mm diameter 437gr 1500fps, 2185 ft-lbs, ~8.13 ft-lbs/mm^2

.44 Magnum SWC:
10.9mm diameter 240gr 1450fps, 1120 ft-lbs, ~12 ft-lbs/mm^2

The .44 Magnum puts almost 50% more energy per unit of area -- which is a rather decent indicator of armor penetration when projectile construction is similar. Compared to a lead slug with a very blunt head, I'd assume the .44 Magnum would penetrate flexible body armor better or at least as well. The "SMG 9mm" which NIJ level IIIA is tested against puts ~8.46 ft-lbs/mm^2 and is an FMJ ogive.

On the other hand, I assume you can get 1oz 12G slugs to muzzle velocities well beyond 1700fps, especially the 3-½"s. At 1800fps (~3146 ft-lbs, still only ~11.7 ft-lbs/mm^2), I doubt any wearable flexible west could reliably beat the NIJ backface deformation criteria, so rating any flexible vest against 12G slugs is meaningless.

[Edit]Just realized what an abomination the unit "foot-pounds per square millimeter" is, and how I should have either used inches or Joules instead. Can't be bothered to go back and change the values. Anyway, the units aren't important because the point is to compare the values.[/Edit]

Posted by: Siege Jul 15 2004, 03:45 PM

On a related note - the first officer death I found involving a shotgun injury was due to part of the blast crushing her throat and trachea, well above the vest.

A shotgun, by virtue of it's nature, also did damage to the chest and belly but I believe that was soaked by the vest.

-Siege

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 15 2004, 03:48 PM

I found a lot of mentions of critical injuries caused by shotguns on police officers wearing armor, too, but those resulted similarly from damage to unprotected areas, mainly the throat and face.

Posted by: hyzmarca Jul 15 2004, 06:27 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jul 15 2004, 10:18 AM)

12G 2-3/4" 1oz slug:
18.5mm diameter 437gr 1500fps, 2185 ft-lbs, ~8.13 ft-lbs/mm^2

.44 Magnum SWC:
10.9mm diameter 240gr 1450fps, 1120 ft-lbs, ~12 ft-lbs/mm^2

The .44 Magnum puts almost 50% more energy per unit of area -- which is a rather decent indicator of armor penetration when projectile construction is similar. Compared to a lead slug with a very blunt head, I'd assume the .44 Magnum would penetrate flexible body armor better or at least as well. The "SMG 9mm" which NIJ level IIIA is tested against puts ~8.46 ft-lbs/mm^2 and is an FMJ ogive.

On the other hand, I assume you can get 1oz 12G slugs to muzzle velocities well beyond 1700fps, especially the 3-½"s. At 1800fps (~3146 ft-lbs, still only ~11.7 ft-lbs/mm^2), I doubt any wearable flexible west could reliably beat the NIJ backface deformation criteria, so rating any flexible vest against 12G slugs is meaningless.

[Edit]Just realized what an abomination the unit "foot-pounds per square millimeter" is, and how I should have either used inches or Joules instead. Can't be bothered to go back and change the values. Anyway, the units aren't important because the point is to compare the values.[/Edit]

Well, the page I linked too states that an officer was killed when a 12 guage slug drove pieces of his vest into his abdomen. That suggests that it didn't actualy penetrate, but it deformed the vest with so much force that pieces of kevlar tore off and penetrated the officer's abdomen.

QUOTE

A North Carolina police officer was killed recently when he was struck by a shotgun slug that drove pieces of his conventional bullet-proof vest into his abdomen. The officer might be alive today had he been wearing a vest with the materal developed by Thomas.

http://www.radix.net/~jchang/armorfaq1.txt

According to this FAQ, level III is rated to stop 12 guage rifled slugs, but IIIA is not.

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Jul 15 2004, 06:28 PM

We have a Sam who is incredibly fast, but only has a 4 body. His MO is to strike first, else he sometimes get creamed. It was a trade off sacrificing it all for some hot cyberware and I make him think twice about what he does with his movement. It's balance well enough that he knows better than to run out into a hot-lead bath, that's reserved for the real meatshields.

Posted by: Siege Jul 15 2004, 06:35 PM

I've read some accounts that a bullet-proof vest actually makes wounds from high-powered rifles worse because of the spintering effect on the bullet, resulting in an impromptu shrapnel affect.

I think they were discussing Class 2 vests though.

-Siege

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 15 2004, 06:36 PM

I couldn't open the site at first, and it's really slow even now. It has some interesting tidbits...

QUOTE (http://www.univrel.auburn.edu/multimedia/publications/LAweb/thomas.html)

Thomas' work has advanced quickly to the point where his improved material can stop armor-piercing bullets and even a 12-gauge shotgun slug.

Indicates that whoever wrote the article doesn't know what types of projectile threats penetrate body armor the best. 12G slugs penetrate far worse than even 7.62x51mm FMJs, let alone armor-piercing bullets.

That vest being torn apart thing sounds really silly somehow. When you look at pictures of penetrated flexible body armor panels, there's always just the one hole where all the strands have snapped. I do not doubt that the blunt trauma from being hit by a shot slug to many flexible body armor vests could be very dangerous and even fatal, however.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 15 2004, 06:47 PM

The full deal about NIJ classifications can be found http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/sciencetech/body_armor.htm. No, level IIIA vests are definitely not guaranteed to stop 12G slugs within the backface deformation criteria. I do hope I didn't come off like I was trying to say that they are. I was simply wondering about exactly how well shotgun slugs fare against flexible body armor. Obviously they fare extremely badly against any rigid body armor...

QUOTE (Siege)

Would not surprise me. The same principle at work that makes a .340Wby 225grain Soft Point a rather bad performer against big, tough game at short distances, but allows the same loading to totally fuck up the human thorax. I dare not say much more about this, because there's simply too much physics at work there for me to say anything smart.

When facing 5.56x45mm M855 FMJs, you might pray for even a measly leve II vest, to slow the bullet down enough to stop it from fragmenting. But if you were being shot at with 7mm RemMag solids, you might be better off without any armor than with that level II. Etc etc.