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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ More than one gun at once

Posted by: golden1 Jul 14 2004, 11:24 PM

well, i was thinking of a character concept (hey, i never said this was a GOOD character concept...) involving the use of some of the hardware in M&M.

Namely the Cyber-arm-Gyro-Mounts, the Cyberarm Fore-arm mounts, the Tracking shoulder mounts, and the Articulate Gyro mount.

now. Count with me here...

That's once gun in one hand, A 2nd gun on the Fore-arm mount, a third and fourth on the other arm, a Fifth and sixth on the shoulders, and number seven on the articulate arm.

now, to the best of my knowledge the only ruling anywhere in the rules about using two firearms at once goes something like "Bonuses from Smartlinks are negated, and there's a flat +2 penalty for each gun".

now, my questions....

Is that +2 penalty added to the (again, from what i can remember of the rules) "appropriate firearms skill, plus half of the "off hand Firearms skill" number of dice, with the target number worked out normally,

OR

"appropriate firearms skill" w/ +2 TN and weapon doing +50% higher damage due to the second weapon....

OR

Does some one have a better suggestion?

++++++++

Part 2. Target numbers..

If i'm doing my sums right here, Firing one gun at someone is worked out normally, Firing one gun, and the Gun attached to the forearm mount should also be worked out normally, and the bonus from the cyber gun should still count (as you're only actually aiming one gun, and the other gets a smartlink signal to fire)
[edit] Also, any uncompensated recoil from one gun gets applied the overall TN.. but in this case you've effectivly got one gun, with twice the rate of fire)

Similarly firing Two guns, and one, or in fact both of the shoulder mounts is also trivial to work out, as the character is still only firing one gun.... the other one on the arm is going off because it's smart gun circuitry is telling it to.. and the two shoulder mounts are using tracking info from one of the characters cyber eyes (from what i can tell, the rules state that you've got to have a cybereye laser system to use these... which is kind of strange, as there's no way they can track the laser dot.... just imagine the fun you can have with someone with one of these... and the laser pointer on your key-ring....

so so far we've got one character taking very careful aim with one gun, a second firing in the same place, by virtue of being strapped to his fore-arm with some limited tracking capability, and two more going off, as they've got tracking info from where he's looking, and are getting a smart link signal to go off...

Now comes the hard part. The other arm, and the Articulate arm (which for the love of cheese, i cant remember what controls it, or makes it go off...)

Obviously the base TN is going to go up by +2 for the second weapon.

And there's going to be a LOT of uncompensated recoil arround (as we're taking 7 guns here... and IGV 4's ain't cheap)

IS there an additional +2 for using an off-handed weapon, or is that where the +2 came from in the first place?

[edit] Two things occurred to me at this point . well, three actually.

1) obvioulsy all of these guns would be loaded with tracer ammo... cos you cant use smart guns for aiming... But that raised another question.. I'd rule that you only get the aiming bonus (ie, -1tn per tracer round loaded 1 in 3 in the clip) for one gun... 'cos loading up 1 in 3 in all 7 guns gets you a target number which is normally negative

2) This character is the Uber munchkin Lord of broken rules...

3) i've had FAR too much caffeine today....

+++

So. is this even possible, Are there any cannon rules that cover it, or failing that any good house rules.... and assuming that this character is either big enough to avoid falling flat on his back when he pulls the trigger, or is basically up to his waste in plasticrete when he hits the "vaporise this target" button.. what happens ?

(also, what happens to damage? does someone get hit by 7 separate attacks, or one mutha-lovin' Burst of ammo? )

Posted by: Adarael Jul 15 2004, 12:08 AM

You know... I've never been able to determine the answer to this question.

But I *do* know that if you build micro-scale robot-pilot drones that are wrapped around handguns, and give them the appropriate autosofts, you can build auto-tracking weapons into cyberlimbs.

Of course, you blow an asston of money, too.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 15 2004, 02:01 AM

Regarding your modifiers, you're mixing the melee and ranged weapons rules. For firearms, it'd be at +2, base firearm skill only, but you would get one attack with each weapon (at a further penalty if the attacks aren't at the same target), which would be resolved as if they had occurred in different phases. IE, they aren't merged like burst fire, you roll a whole lot of attacks each simple action.

~J

Posted by: kevyn668 Jul 15 2004, 03:32 AM

How is this monster of yours ever going to order a SloppieSoy™??

[ Spoiler ]

Posted by: Lantzer Jul 15 2004, 02:14 PM

You know the type - They never eat, sleep, or go to the bathroom. They have a half-mil of milspec cyber in them, and live in a cardboard box in the Barrens. They never have to buy ammo, and when they roll to hit, it's like somebody knocked over the bargain dice bin at the game store. They are often ice-cold methodical professionals with no weaknesses, no-one they care about, and yet are good buddies with the Renraku CEO.

(Hmm. Somebody must have whizzed in my krillflakes this morning. I am sooo glad my current group is better than that. I feel better now.)

I remember the Sloppys.

On topic: To be honest, the mental image I get of this guy is certainly intimidating... Who needs _working_ guns? Hmm. Never mind - If he looks like that, He's probably going to need them to get to the end of the block.

Posted by: golden1 Jul 15 2004, 02:25 PM

hey. i never said this was a GOOD idea.. just that it was....

Also, there's going to be a LOT of intimidation factor here....

Mind you, if any Lone star / KE / J random security guard ever actually see's him the area's going to be swarming with HTRT's and CRT's so fast that it's silly.

The main question is, if you have one gun that you aim, and a second gun that gets aimed by cyber at the same target, is there an increase in target numbers, do you roll twice (once for each gun) is it the same roll twice, or do you split that combat pool ..

(and for the record, this guy's a border line cyber psychotic with a thing for pomeranians... )

(note to self. Caffeine is NOT your friend)

Posted by: golden1 Jul 15 2004, 02:27 PM

Oh, and no, i dont think this character should be allowed, especialy not on "first run", but there's a gap i the rules, and ... well.. i was hopped up on coffee, and well, "you'ze guyz" seem to have an answer for everything, and .. i'll shut up now ..-)

Posted by: Lantzer Jul 15 2004, 02:49 PM

It _is_ an interesting question. And the answer is... I dunno.

On TNs - I'd probably treat it as +2, with a whole lot of extra attacks to roll, and a whole lot of recoil to compensate. John Woo on steroids.

On Aiming and Tracer ammo - I'd only allow the tracers to lower TNs for the particular weapon. So you don't get the tracers bonus x7, you get the bonus 7 separate times, if that makes any sense. (He'd certainly look cool with all those tracers going at once.)

On falling over: Maybe cyberlegs with anchors, and a big telescoping prop that folds out of his butt? It's not like he'll be able to dodge with those gyromounts anyway.

Hmm. Variation off the mental image - instead of many little guns, how about one big gun that needs all those mounts to control? Mmm, Big guns... Mmmmm..... Flashbacks to Mekton...

Posted by: kevyn668 Jul 15 2004, 03:41 PM

QUOTE

(and for the record, this guy's a border line cyber psychotic with a thing for pomeranians... )

Sorry I was harsh on you earlier...rough day.

Posted by: Firewall Jul 15 2004, 03:56 PM

What about the weight though? I mean, all those guns are going to weigh something. And the cyber as well. Between recoil and weight distribution, this person will need help standing.

Posted by: Cray74 Jul 15 2004, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (Firewall)

What about the weight though? I mean, all those guns are going to weigh something. And the cyber as well. Between recoil and weight distribution, this person will need help standing.

Presumably, a character willing to carry 7 guns and modify himself with cyber like articulated arms would have the strength necessary to haul the load.

The only implant (cyber, bio, genetech) of any sort that adds to a character's load is bone lacing. (Does calcitonin add weight?) Otherwise, the cyberlimbs and articulated arm do not. So, no weight there.

The other source of weight is the weapons. If you're talking Shadowrun's over-weight pistols, that's only 14-21kg, which should be within the capacity of Strength 5-6 humans. Seven 6-8kg assault rifles should be manageable for a troll.

The recoil would be handled by the weapons. If they're SA, then a little gas venting will handle the problem. If they're BF or FA, well...this IS a character that should get what he deserves.

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 15 2004, 04:28 PM

QUOTE (Adarael)

I did that with a paraplegic rigger character once.

He had this armored van he stayed in all the time and just sent drones out for everything. Even had a humaniform drone in a trenchcoat and hat with scarf wrapped around face for when he needed to buy something at the Stuffer Shack.

Anyhow, his most popular drones among his teammates were the GunPods. Little crawler drones with various weapons built in and autosofts for targeting. The things could move around on their own a bit but the main purpose of the legs was to grab onto surfaces like the shoulderpad of a partner teammate.

They were set to "Fire at anything your partner teammate is firing at" when not actually being controlled by the rigger. It let me play an otherwise immobile character and be in the thick of the action.

Good god was that character expensive, though.

-karma

Posted by: The Grifter Jul 15 2004, 08:08 PM

Jesus, and I thought I was the resident gun nut.

Posted by: Foreigner Jul 15 2004, 08:23 PM

I just realized something.

It's probably my overactive imagination again, or maybe--as I've said--I tend to use pop culture references (i.e., TV, Movies, comic books, and the like) to understand some SR-related stuff (because I find that some of it is a little difficult to understand), but does anyone else here think that golden1's character concept sounds like he just saw SPIDER-MAN 2, and is trying to adapt Doctor Otto Octavius, a/k/a "Doctor Octopus", to a SHADOWRUN setting?

No criticism is intended, mind you. I was merely curious.

After all, the character I'm playing is also derived from a comic-book character.

--Foreigner

Posted by: tjn Jul 15 2004, 08:36 PM

QUOTE (Cray74)

If they're BF or FA, well...this IS a character that should get what he deserves.

How so? Enless the monster's sporting High Velocity ARs or SMGs it's realitively simple to compensate.

Remember each articulated arm provides 3 Recoil compensation.

Add a Gas Vent 4 on each weapon, you're now up to 7.

Add two foot anchors, up to 9.

Add two strength mod's to each cyberlimb if human or elf and you're at 6 Str. The other races are already at 6 or above. That's another point of Recoil Compensation for a total of 10, and we didn't even have to get any guns with integral RC.

Since only HV can generate more recoil then this in a combat turn, you've got yerself covered under most cases.

Posted by: FlakJacket Jul 15 2004, 09:19 PM

QUOTE (golden1)

And for the record, this guy's a border line cyber psychotic with a thing for pomeranians...

Took me a second of wondering why this guy had a thing for north German elves before I realised that you meant the breed of dog.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 15 2004, 09:48 PM

QUOTE

Add two foot anchors, up to 9.

That adds 2 recoil comp, not 2 per gun I believe.

Posted by: tjn Jul 16 2004, 09:54 AM

QUOTE (BitBasher)

QUOTE

Add two foot anchors, up to 9.

That adds 2 recoil comp, not 2 per gun I believe.

There's nothing to indicate Recoil Reduction is applied to one gun. Granted there's no place that it states otherwise either.

The fact it's worded as Recoil Reduction not Recoil Compensation like Gas Vents, Stocks, and Foregrips (which are specific to the weapon), infers there's a difference. For me that would mean Reduction applies to any gun, while Compensation applies to a specific gun. YMMV.

Then the rules for recoil affecting other arms specifies uncompensated. Literal interpretation would mean Recoil Reduction doesn't count.

And then there's gyro's that neutralizes recoil modifiers.

A formula on how to calculate recoil mod would clear things up, but my best guess due to the word choice would be to put Reduction first, then Compensation (then apply modifiers and then neutralize). It personally makes no sense to me to compensate and then reduce, but that's only due to word choice and the nuances of the english language.

Posted by: golden1 Jul 16 2004, 10:35 AM

well, the way i'd rule it is that the recoil comp due to Str applies to one arm. IE, str 10 gives you 2 points .. which counters the recoil from 2 bullets... weather they come from the same gun, or different ones. two guns firing 3 bullets each is 6 points of recoil.. If each gun has 2points of recoil comp .. that leaves 2 points "uncompensated", which the natural RC then deals with.

The two points of "recoil reduction" from the foot anchors seems to stem from the fact that your legs aren't going anywhere, and your ankels aren't going to flex much..... so i'd say you can apply two points of recoil comp to any ammount of overall recoil.. IE, you've got 2 "floating points of RC".