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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Scuba gear

Posted by: Necro Tech Jul 17 2004, 05:49 PM

Someone in my group was looking into buying scuba gear for his character until he saw the cost of the tank. 3000 ? I did some reasearch and the rest of the prices look good but tanks go from like $159-450$ for a steel tank with accessories. Aluminum ones are cheaper. What gives?

Posted by: Zazen Jul 17 2004, 06:09 PM

Yeah, a friend of mine dives a lot and he told me it's more like three grand to buy everything, not just a single tank.

Posted by: Siege Jul 17 2004, 07:06 PM

Welcome to the SR pricing guide.

You can justify the canon listing or you can replace the numbers with whatever appeals to you.

-Siege

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 07:40 PM

Used '34 Oldsmobile in 1944: http://www.gti.net/mocolib1/prices/1944.html.
Used '94 Oldsmobile in 2004: http://www.automotive.com/used-cars/09/oldsmobile/delta-eighty-eight-royale/1994/index.html
Change in Price: Over a 6,000% increase.

Movie Ticket in New Jersery in 1944: http://www.gti.net/mocolib1/prices/1944.html
Movie Ticket in New Jersery in 2004: https://www.fandango.com/ticket_box_office.asp?row_count=1285258449&theater_pkey=473&movie_title=Spider-Man%202&barcode_flag=0&chain_id=W&theater_id=075678&mv=74369&rating=PG-13
Change in Price: Nearly a 4,000% increase.

Steel SCUBA Tank in 2004: ~$159.00.
Steel SCUBA Tank in 2064: ~3,000.00
Change in Price: Just over a 1,750% increase.

Such a minor difference... get over it already.

Posted by: Clyde Jul 17 2004, 07:59 PM

Of course the 1994 car is vastly superior to the 1934 car in terms of absolute quality. It's faster, safer, more comfortable (By FAR) and gets better gas mileage. It will last longer and has less maintenance to deal with (although that maintenance requires a specialist). It's arguable whether or not the 2004 movie is better than its older counterpart. Certainly we spend more money on special effects and I think actors are paid more (though they may not be any better). The 2004 movie, of course, is in full color, stereo (if not surround) sound and is probably in an air conditioned theater with nice stadium seats. The 40's flick, is not, of course.

So I say do what you want with the prices. It's the economy, it doesn't make sense now so why should it have to in the future?

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 17 2004, 08:02 PM

It's not the tank that's expensive it's all the gear to make the tank work and usable. It's sure not 500 bucks unless the price dropped by a few grand in the few years since I was interested in it.

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 08:03 PM

Compared to a 2004 vehicle, there's neglible differences in the 1994 model. Same with the 1944 vehicle (if any were being made since it was WWII at the time) vs. 1934 vehicle.

But continue to delude yourself all you like. I'm sure that $0.05 can of soda you bought in 1944 was vastly inferior to the one you drank today that you got out of a vending machine for over a buck.

Besides, Clyde, you do realize everything you just argued to defend the price change applies to things 60 years in the future, too, right?

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jul 17 2004, 08:07 PM

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

theres negligible difference between a 34 and a 44? what about a 44 and a 54? 54 and 64? 64 and 74? 74 and 84? 84 and 94? 94 and 04?

damn, these cars really need an update

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 08:10 PM

Oh darn, I'm just being a dumbass again. Silly me. My aspirin, Coca Cola, and hat are all VASTLY superior to anything those clowns in 1944 could dream of producing, baby, 'cause the price change is insanely higher. That means its better. Those suckers.

But tell you what, go see if you can get 7 acres of land and a 12 bedroom/4 bathroom mansion in Morriston, New Jersery today for $25,000. Hell, the exact same one for the same price. But is that inclusion of central air, a refrigerator, and big screen TV enough to justify a 4,000% increase in price there, too?

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jul 17 2004, 08:14 PM

you said there wasnt much difference in cars 10 years apart. by saying that you were, in fact being a dumbass

if you are a dumbass all the time, im not too sure

you are, however, wearing the uniform

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 08:17 PM

Comparitively, there isn't. You're the dumbass for assuming there is. Especially in such a pathetically weak argument against inflation.

Unless you wish to list the vast changes in the two similar vehicles between 1934 and 1944, and then the differences between two similar vehicles between 1994 and 2004.

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jul 17 2004, 08:18 PM

like i said, if there little difference between a 34 and a 44 whats the difference between a 44 and a 54? if theres little difference every decade, how do cars advance?

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 08:20 PM

10 years is not 60 years. I know that concept must be incredibly difficult for you to grasp.

In case you missed it, which you obviously did, I said the differences between a 1934 vehicle and a 1944 vehicle were as neglible as the differences between a 1994 vehicle and a 2004 vehicle. Not that there weren't any changes, but whatever changes there were, they were likely on the same scale and thus -- yes -- neglible. That was the entire point of comparing vehicles relative to the time of their costs.

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jul 17 2004, 08:22 PM

even in 60 years, if the changes ever decade are negligible not much will change

however i cant argue with dr. funkenmonkeytoymoon, because nobody can

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 17 2004, 08:26 PM

Necrotic Monkey: There's this thing called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation, check it out. It's nifty. Interestingly enough, inflation doesn't matter if currency changes. You know, like between US Dollars and Nuyen.

[Edit]And there's the thing about the majority of items not having their prices hiked at all. Not-so-surprisingly, only items the price of which your average RPG designer might not know off-hand have experienced this non-inflation.[/Edit]

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 08:27 PM

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jul 17 2004, 08:29 PM

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

oh snap, i think we just got served.

anyway back on topic. scuba gear prices are just wierd, and like someone said if anybdoy cannot come up with a reason you could just change it, your the GM and you can do whatever you want to do

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 08:29 PM

Fine. Increase everything by 4 times and then you'll have the U(CA)S Dollar prices. At least doing that, the $12,000 SCUBA tank is on the same basic level of inflation as many things from 1944 are compared to 2004.

But oh wait, they call it a UCAS Dollar. Not a US Dollar. My mistake. I'm just being foolish again.

Maybe instead of wanking off, the lot of you can go through and make a completely "realistic" price guide for everything in the game. And don't make a single mistake or assume any change in quality or anything. It must all be exactly as it is today. Even cyberware. So go... get to work. Show your superiority.

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jul 17 2004, 08:31 PM

that is of course assuming inflation went up on a fixed rate. im not a banker or anything so i dont know. you probably do know and youll let us all know

or we could not just freak out when were proven wrong, say we were wrong and then we can argue about soemthing else?

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 08:33 PM

No, there is no such thing as inflation, see. AE proved as much! There is no more US Dollar, so the change to the UCAS Dollar and Nuyen have completely wiped away ANY NEED WHATOSEVER in a price difference 60 years from now.

So get to work on that pricing guide. Go on. Go.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 17 2004, 08:33 PM

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

Maybe instead of wanking off, the lot of you can go through and make a completely "realistic" price guide for everything in the game. And don't make a single mistake or assume any change in quality or anything. It must all be exactly as it is today. Even cyberware. So go... get to work. Show your superiority.

Yeah, that's right. Unless you can do something way better than someone else in a fraction of the time, you have no right to comment on it in any way.

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 08:37 PM

Yeah, that's right. And while you're at it, you're not allowed to defend something as pathetically a non-issue as a minor change in price 60 years in the future without having a trio of people jumping down your throat about how there's no such thing as inflation and related price changes are meaningless between its counterpart 60 years in the past.

While at the same time whining because there's obviously going to be no change whatsoever 60 years in the future. And no price changes.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 17 2004, 08:46 PM

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

NM people are trying to explain the logic to you. If you'd like we can ask Raygun to go over the relative price of fire arms. My .38 webley cost me $300 in 2001, I'm sure this same gun(not the collectors item the .455 is) cost a hell of a lot less in 1932.

It has been pointed out to you how prices change.I'm getting the impression that you are not yet living on your own, or haven't been for any period of time. Look at video games in an arcade. They used to be $0.25 when I was in hs, now they're at least $0.50.

For costs of basic products look at the price of milk, currently $3.50 or there abouts, a few years ago it was $2.00.

In investment circles you don't get many fix prices that go beyond 7 years because of the risk of inflation to investments or the vendor. Now that is 7 years, not the 50 we're looking at.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 17 2004, 08:48 PM

I think that if someone has to sarcastically inflate a point to be able to attack it, then they should just not attack that point.

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 08:49 PM

You do realize that I'm the one defending the increase in prices, right? That I was the one who was pointing out that the change is actually less between today and 2064 as they were between 1944 and today?

They're the ones who are upset that there's any price change whatosever in the game.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 17 2004, 08:54 PM

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

No, there is no such thing as inflation, see. AE proved as much! There is no more US Dollar, so the change to the UCAS Dollar and Nuyen have completely wiped away any need for inflation!

I have no idea what your problem is, but you should try to deal with it somewhere else than on Dumpshock.

The price of gasoline per liter in Finland in 1994: 5.00 FIM
The price of gasoline per liter in Finland in 2004: 1.10 EUR
The price of milk per liter in Finland in 1994: 3.50 FIM
The price of milk per liter in Finland in 2004: 0.50 EUR
[Edit]
The price of 1 SMS message in Finland in 1994: 2 FIM
The price of 1 SMS message in Finland in 2004: 0.10 EUR
The price of coffee per cup in Finland in 1994: 5 FIM
The price of coffee per cup in Finland in 2004: 2 EUR
[/Edit]
Can you easily determine the rate of inflation in Finland based on that? Do you, in fact, have any fucking clue how consumer prices have changed in Finland in the last 10 years based on just that, without a conversion rate of FIM -> EUR?

We don't have a conversion rate between US Dollars of 2004 and UCAS Dollars of 2064. We sure as hell don't have a conversion rate between US Dollars of 2004 and Nuyen of 2064, other than "assume about 1 nuyen per 1 RL USD if you can't think of anything else".

If you wish, we can do a quick table of a few common SR items and compare how their relative prices have changed in 60 years.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 17 2004, 08:57 PM

I never named any names, but if you think that applied to you, then that's cool.

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 09:06 PM

Did you say something? My last post was in response to Snow Fox.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 17 2004, 10:23 PM

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey @ Jul 17 2004, 03:20 PM)

My example on the revolver showed how the price has gone up on an item without any great change in technology and without it being a collectors' item.

In response to other posts, you've been very sarcastic to several people trying to explain the changes to you. For the most part everyone else has tried to be civil and keep their explanations logical and to the point, in the hopes it will suddenly become clear to you.

If you don't like any of these, then just take it this way: The price is what it is because that's what's in the book. If you don't like it, don't use it. m'kay?

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 10:32 PM

Again, am I just not clear? I'm the one arguing that an increase in price is logical while simultaneously telling them that the increases in price in Shadowrun pale in comparison to those in the real world over the last 60 years, so they should be happy it's not even higher. Read the fourth post in the thread. You're arguing the same thing, but somehow you're seeing my argument as contrary.

They're the ones who are arguing that its not and that I'm an idiot for suggesting that it is. Coming up with silly arguments about how vehicles have changed in 60 years and movies now use computers for special effects. But its apparently crazy talk to point out that the same differences apply 60 years in the future.

Oy. Whatever.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 17 2004, 11:05 PM

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

But its apparently crazy talk to point out that the same differences apply 60 years in the future.

Are you ignoring everything I'm saying, then? Inflation has nothing to do with how one item has become 10 times more expensive relative to the price of another, related item. This is the main problem with ammo prices -- handguns cost about the same amount of nuyen in 2064 as they do cost USD in 2004, but ammunition costs easily 10 times more.

Similarly, you can get a regulator for as many nuyen in 2064 as it would could USD in 2004, but a SCUBA tank costs over 10 times as much. That sort of thing has nothing to do with inflation. The "worth of money", as measure by Consumer Price Indices, does not come into play at any time because of two reasons, either of which would be sufficient on its own:
1) The currency has changed and we don't know the conversion rates
2) The prices of items relative to each other have changed massively without any reason

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 11:16 PM

Yes, I've been ignoring it because it does happen. In 1944 a pound of butter cost about $0.49. In 2004 a pound of butter costs about $5.00. That's a difference of just under 1,000%. However, in 1944 potatoes cost $0.25/lb. In 2004 potatoes cost $0.39/lb. That's a paultry 50% increase in price.

Those are both basic foodstuffs, yet the inflation of one over the other is vastly different.

Need another example?

In 1994 a brand new Toyota Camry cost about $15,000.00 and a gallon of gas was about a buck. In 2004 a brand new Toyota Camry cost about $16,000.00 and a gallon of gas set you back by two bucks. The vehicle had a price change of well under 10%. Gasoline (its "ammunition") had a price change of about 100%. And that's over just 10 years, let alone 60.

Prices change, and they change drastically, as the years roll by. Sometimes there's a good reason, sometimes there isn't.

Posted by: Person 404 Jul 17 2004, 11:24 PM

I think part of the problem here is terminology; inflation is generally used to refer to the currency as a whole, not to individual items. IANAE.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 17 2004, 11:38 PM

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

inflation is generally used to refer to the currency as a whole, not to individual items.

Not "generally used", that is the meaning of the word. Inflation = that particular currency buys less. Thus,

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

Those are both basic foodstuffs, yet the inflation of one over the other is vastly different.

should be

QUOTE

Those are both basic foodstuffs, yet the price of one relative to the other has changed vastly.

at least for the purposes of this discussion.

However, butter and potatoes are not related anywhere near as tightly as respirators and air tanks, or firearms and their ammunition. If you want to prove that

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

it does happen

you should find examples of two goods which are only useful when used together and the prices of which have changed massively relative to each other. If you can, I'll be more prepared to accept that it might happen with SCUBA and tanks, or handguns and ammunition.

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

In 1994 a brand new Toyota Camry cost about $15,000.00 and a gallon of gas was about a buck. [...] Prices change, and they change drastically, as the years roll by. Sometimes there's a good reason, sometimes there isn't.

In this particular case, there is an immediately obvious reason: the scarcity of one particular resource. Yet another thing that has absolutely nothing to do with the relative price changes of SCUBA and tanks, or handguns and ammunition -- unless earth's base metal supply is running dangerously low...

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 17 2004, 11:59 PM

inflation, n. A persistent increase in the level of consumer prices OR a persistent decline in the purchasing power of money

It refers to both. But since you're going down the line of nitpicking such pathetically minor details, I'm sure you'll understand why I'll resume ignoring you throughout the rest of this thread.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 18 2004, 12:12 AM

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

I'll resume ignoring you throughout the rest of this thread.

Funny how you always do when I've got a point...

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey)

inflation, n. A persistent increase in the level of consumer prices OR a persistent decline in the purchasing power of money

It refers to both.

Indeed it does. This mainly because the two are the same thing. If consumer prices (an aggregate of prices of everything consumers buy) go up, that means the purchasing power of money (how much the consumers can buy per unit of currency) has gone down.

When the price of one good goes up or down, that's not inflation. Oil prices going up is not inflation, although it might lead to it. The price of SCUBA air tanks or small arms ammunition going up is not inflation.

Obviously you already ignored most of the message above, since you did not comment on the part where I told you why nothing presented thus far helps explain the price changes in 2004-2064 of SCUBA relative to air tanks or small arms relative to their ammunition.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 18 2004, 02:14 AM

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey @ Jul 17 2004, 06:16 PM)

Where the hell are you shopping? I get pretty good prices on produce here, certainly compared to in the cities or New York where I used to live and potatoes are about $0.79/pound!

Which is by the way a 300%+ increase. Not as bad as the others but...

Children, play nice or I will launch into a detailed and deadly boring essay on inflation protected investments, annuities and various investment risks, inparticular inflation risks. Trust me kiddies I will do this. For those who don't know me, I'm a licenced securities broker and if need be I'll just start with the various SEC and NASD regs!

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 18 2004, 02:18 AM

EDIT: no longer relevant and I guess not funny anyway

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 18 2004, 02:20 AM

I didn't get the prices from my own local supermarket, especially since I wasn't around in 1944 so had no way to tell you what those prices were. I found the data for 2004 prices in an area of New Jersery http://www.gti.net/mocolib1/prices/2004.html and the 1944 equivalence in the same area http://www.gti.net/mocolib1/prices/1944.html. And no, I do not live in New Jersey.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 18 2004, 02:28 AM

I live outside Philly. pretty much the same are. I don't know what potatos went for in 1944 but I know what it is now. I bought osme thursday.

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 18 2004, 02:35 AM

I do most of the shopping in my family as well. That doesn't change the prices in the region I was referencing. In all likelihood, the change in price in your local area was similar to those in that little area of New Jersey back between 2004 and 1944.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Jul 18 2004, 03:20 AM

QUOTE (Snow_Fox)

QUOTE (Necrotic Monkey @ Jul 17 2004, 06:16 PM)

Go right ahead, and throw in some stuff about investments across non-pegged currencies too.

Maybe add a bit about how inflation will drive long term loan rates and stuff.

A simple guide for those here not in financial services about inflation, interest rates, exchange rate fluctuations, and so on would be neat. at least if you already have one written...

Posted by: JaronK Jul 18 2004, 05:51 AM

Actually that would be great. Also, if you want to throw in something about banking and how to avoid all those damn charges they sneak in...

JaronK

Posted by: OurTeam Jul 18 2004, 06:29 AM

Snow Fox, I'll second the motion that you talk about securities, regs, and inflation. You can be a master poster, the equivalent of Raygun and Ancient History. You can have your own web site for Shadowrun economics.

I tried to run a Shadowrun adventure (home made) once where the characters had to pose as brokers in a brokerage firm for a week. I handed out a 1-page description to the players of puts, calls, long, short, margin, margin call, dividends, indexes, mutual funds, index funds, etc. The run failed miserably, because of the way I did it. One of the players said "I had to work harder on this run than I do for school."

This is not an offer to sell securities, nor a recommendation for any particular investment. No one should make investment decisions based on this posting alone. Nor should this be construed as tax advice. The opinions of the author and his guests can change at any time, without advance notice. If any court of law does decide that the author is liable for your losses, you agree by reading this that such liability shall be strictly limited by what you've paid for such advice.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 18 2004, 08:56 AM

I absolutely agree with the above 3 posters. There is pathetically little macroeconomical data and analysis on Shadowrun now. Things I would particularly like to see are the developments between different schools: whether the Keynesians survived [sic] the crossover into a world where megacorps have so much political power, which schools gained most in the economical turmoil, etc.

Other stuff I wouldn't mind knowing (or having someone decide for me) include the amount of influence the megacorps have in the daily operation of central banks, what the BoPs of the major economical powers look like, how hard have the currencies of North America and Europe been hit by the almost total lack of a transaction motive for holding cash, and if the strong nuyen should be seen as an indication that the Japanese have gotten over their hysterical approach to unemployment.

Posted by: Tzeentch Jul 19 2004, 07:37 AM

-- Here's a hint: the Shadowrun prices were effectively pulled from a hat in a lot of cases, with a nod towards game balance or relative pricing for similar items at the time. Inflation was not a serious factor in determining prices for Shadowrun because all new books use the original rulebook prices as guidelines, and most of those are identical or very similar to that from 1st edition.

-- This whole argument about inflation realy brings the point home that some people can't see the game reality for the trees and roll with the punches. I mean really now, this is a game world with elves and railguns and mad AIs -- but oh no, those expensive SCUBA tanks and heavy pistols totally blows my suspension of disbelief!

Posted by: Neon Tiger Jul 19 2004, 09:40 AM

Tzeentchs got it. If you dont like SCUBA gear prices, change it. You know, those gaming police have their hands full with all those D20 players that they dont have time to harass us SR players.

Posted by: mfb Jul 19 2004, 01:53 PM

actually, the expensive SCUBA tanks and heavy pistols are exactly what blows my suspension of disbelief, most of the time--or, similar details. Shadowrun is supposed to be cyberpunk + magic. the basis of cyberpunk is a gritty interpretation of the possible future. ergo, the cyberpunk part of Shadowrun should be, y'know, a possible future. the inclusion of magic is the very reason that the non-magical parts should be as realistic as possible--it makes the magic part more believable. to the human mind, it's easy to accept that if X is true, and Y is related to X, then Y is true, even if Y is illogical. if the cyberpunk X is as true as possible, then it makes it easier to accept the magical Y without breaking the suspension of disbelief.

incidentally, you're all insane except for Monkey. he's the only one that appears to know which side of the argument he's on--most of the rest of you have, at various times, agreed with his standpoint while trying to disagree with him.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 19 2004, 01:58 PM

I'm pretty sure I never agreed with his standpoint on this particular matter.

Posted by: mfb Jul 19 2004, 02:32 PM

well, i did say "most of the rest". though i admit, i may have been slightly off when i called Monkey not-insane.

Posted by: daforsto Jul 19 2004, 03:01 PM

I am a scuba junkie. I dive at every available opportunity. As a matter of fact the single biggest conflict with our ShadowRunning is my diving.

That aside... I would gladly pay a heck of a lot more for a scuba tank if it could fill itself - No compressor needed. The compressor is built into the valve. Obviously this wouldn't work for anything but air... i.e. no nitrox, no trimix, no pure oxygen for decompression.

As the gear descriptions are pretty minimalistic in some cases, and the state of the art in many things, is quite a bit beyond 2004, it may not be unreasonable to belive a 2063 scuba tank can fill itself without an external compressor.

Taking this one step further, to make an exotic diving gas - nitrox, trimix, O2, etc. One would only have to connect the tanks valve to the cylinder holding the gas. There could be a nice friendly user interface allowing you to select a breathing mixture and a prompt to let you know when to change source cylinders.

Granted 3000 would be a bit much. In today dollars, that would buy a whole compressor, a few cascade bottles, and a couple of tanks to dive with.

Just thought I would post an alternative notion...

--Dave

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jul 19 2004, 04:59 PM

Hmm....
Cost for a SCUBA tank: 3000
Cost for a friendly mage to quicken a force 1 oxygenate spell to you: ~5250
Cybergill: 12500 and .75 essense

SCUBA is still the cheapest and the most limited of the three.

Posted by: lspahn72 Jul 19 2004, 05:24 PM

QUOTE (Necro Tech)

Someone in my group was looking into buying scuba gear for his character until he saw the cost of the tank. 3000

? I did some reasearch and the rest of the prices look good but tanks go from like $159-450$ for a steel tank with accessories. Aluminum ones are cheaper. What gives?

Rent it....but buy some insurance...

Naaa...Forget the insurance, Shadowrunners would take the tanks back anyway!

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 20 2004, 01:07 AM

QUOTE (OurTeam)

Ouch, gusty but needlessly painful to the runners. I changed company's recently and I had to take 4 weeks to learn the new products and systems, That's with my experience and licences. It would have been better for them to have one person/contact well trained in this to cover the technical stuff while the rest talk in broad terms, mutual funds work best for this, since you can paddle more BS than get hung up in the details.

If people want I can start a thread on this rather than hijack this thread further.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 20 2004, 01:17 AM

If there was a multiplayer mode for Capitalism (the old computer game), I'd challenge you to a game.

~J

Posted by: OurTeam Jul 20 2004, 04:05 AM

I have no reason to discuss finance / economics / markets on these boards. Nice to hear from a trained person, though. See you around.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jul 20 2004, 11:43 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

If there was a multiplayer mode for Capitalism (the old computer game), I'd challenge you to a game.

Sorry, I play ith other people's money. Actually i'm told I'm very good explaining stuff to people who don't have a clue. Go figure.

Posted by: OurTeam Jul 21 2004, 03:49 AM

It is said that new Brokers generally lose their clients a million dollars before they get the hang of it. I have obviously found several new Brokers since I first invested in 1978.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 21 2004, 04:08 AM

You've lost several million dollars?

~J

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 21 2004, 04:17 AM

Who hasn't?

Posted by: Necro Tech Jul 21 2004, 05:23 AM

Wow, when I started this thread I was thinking "typo", not flame war. Actually now i'm thinking vast conspiricy. Great Dragon ATGM missile? 1000 Scuba tank? 3000 What's under the ocean they don't want us to see? Things that make you go HMMMM.