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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Making a stealthy character

Posted by: mmu1 Jul 18 2004, 04:19 AM

So I'm thinking of making a stealthy assassin / infiltrator, and I'm looking for suggestions.

The rules are as follows:

1. No bioware.

2. I want to be able to respect myself in the morning, so I'm not interested in uber-twinkage.

Are there any must-have pieces of cyberware? Non-obvious skills that come in really handy for this kind of character?

Seems to me stealth / atheltics / computers / electronics / electronics BR would be his bread and butter (along with some combat skill, obviously) - is there anything I'm missing?

For cyberware, I have so far tons of vision/hearing enhancements for staying ahead of the opposition, balance augmentor and retractable claws for scaling things, an encephalon for extra dice for technical skills, a transucer for silent communication, as well as some boosted reflexes and a smartlink.

As far as gear goes, is there anything that's a must-have for a stealthy character besides ruthenium?

Posted by: toturi Jul 18 2004, 04:22 AM

I would think that a stealth PC would be easier to create as an adept. And besides, isn't rutherium uber-twinkage?

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 18 2004, 04:33 AM

Here's a run of the mill build. If you can supply a little more information about the character such as his personality, ethnicity, style, reason for being who he is, and typical clientale, improvements can be made.

Human Adept (25 Build Points or Priorities B & E; hmm, how appropriate).

Attributes: Intelligence is your bread-and-butter, followed by Quickness. Charisma comes next, followed by Willpower. Body and Strength should be average; a good spy/stealthy type shouldn't need to rely on either of those except for the purpose of skill improvement.

Active Skills: Athletics, Disguise, Electronics, Electronics B/R, Etiquette (Street), Melee Skill of Choice, Negotiations (Fast Talking or Bribing), Ranged Skill of Choice, Stealth. On the rare occasion you need Computers, default from Electronics.

Knowledge Skills: Acting (Improvisation), Chemistry (Pharmaceuticals), Security Procedures, Security Systems.

Adept Powers: Improved Athletics 4 (0.75; geased), Improved Reflexes 2 (2.25; geased), Improved Stealth 4 (0.75; geased), Improved Senses 8 (pick any) (1.50; geased), Sixth Sense 1 (0.25), Traceless Walk (0.50). For senses, I'd recommend Low-Light Vision, Spatial Recognizer, High Frequency Hearing, Select Sound Filter, Vision Magnification, Dampener, Flare Compensation, and Direction Sense. I'd also ask my GM if the latter would count as an Orientation System for purposes of the Spatial Recognizer. I'd then focus on Improved Stealth and Sixth Sense as the game continues. Why Sixth Sense? Because winning Surprise should be the defacto way you win combat in most situations.

Edges & Flaws: Aptitude (Stealth), Blandness, Friendly Face, Perceptive.

Equipment: Ruthenium outfit (I like Form-Fitting Full Body Armor with Thermal Dampening 4 and Chemical Seal 1 and then a ruthenium-treated bike helmet with a fun HUD inside), lockpick gun, sequencer, electronics toolkit, disguise toolkit, and if you can afford it, a maglock passkey. I also like to go with the Pistols skill and take both an Ares Supersquirt II and a standard silenced firearm with a choice of capsule rounds and standard ammunition. Fake SINs are always nice, too.

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jul 18 2004, 04:51 AM

QUOTE (mmu1 @ Jul 17 2004, 10:19 PM)

Max out the following:

Intelligence
Charisma
Willpower

Ettiquette
Negotiation
Intimidation
Stealth
Athletics

90% of getting anywhere is acting like you belong--be it corp, government, or other. You do that, and all the cyber and ruthenium stealth suits just seem like so much useless crap.

Funny is walking into a "secure" office without even stopping because you know exactly where you're going and act like you belong, regadless of the fact that the rules state otherwise and the person behind the desk has never seen you before.

Posted by: JaronK Jul 18 2004, 05:49 AM

When I made this type of character, I went for an Albino Human Adept (the albino was mostly because I wanted a ghost like character... named her Casper). I took Stealth 6, Athletics 6, Improved Ability: Stealth 6, and Improved Ability: Athletics 6, plus a few nice sensory powers (microscopic vision is huge, as is some sort of dark-seeing ability, and I like high frequency hearing so you can hear the ultrasound emitters if they have them). I didn't even bother with Improved Reflexes since she wasn't a combat character. Then I took a few social abilities... ettiquette and negociation at 6. Slap on a few social edges (good looking and knows it, friendly face, good reputation) and she's good to go. Sure, she can't fight, but who needs to fight when you can backflip out the window in case of emergency?

JaronK

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 18 2004, 06:47 AM

I would personally think the concept would work a lot better as a plain human with blandness. But that's just me.

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 18 2004, 07:09 AM

Yeah, i was going to suggest blandness. Friendly Face type of edge would work. Create an edge similar to it that would apply to on the spot "do I call security or offer to get him some coffee?" decision. Friendly face might do it with a liberal enough GM.

Maybe you could take that briefcase SMG or the guncane? Useful for blending in and distracting. The SMG might actually be serviceable if you need it, but I'm thinking the guncane could be used to set off the sprinklers, hold open a closing door, jam a door, or what have you.

How about a palm mounted body compartment with a syringe containing NSX?

"Hi, I'm new here. Name's Tom. Nice to meet you"
*offers hand for a shake, grabs, injects*

Could also be used if you get caught by a security guard who goes to detain you at which point you jab him.

Carry a small bag of marbles or ball bearings. Throw'em on the ground, toss'em around the corner, use them as distractions.

Get a suit with color changing abilities. Change the color every time you pass a security camera.

Also, get a disguise kit with a couple of wigs. ALWAYS wear a wig. People remember hairstyles more than faces, especially considering you've got blandness. Simply remove the wig and stuff it in a pocket/case etc when you're making an exit.

Also, carry cigarettes, a swiss army knife, and some gum. Offer cigs and gum to people. Maybe you can get knockout gum or some sort of poison cigs that will incapacitate the user?

Ehhh, black spray paint maybe? Slip spray? Splat glue?

Oh, why not pick up a high powered eye laser and a tool attachment so you can make quiet entrances into places you can't pick the locks of or what have you.

Since you have electronics skill ask your GM if you can simply get the PARTS for the eye and the tool laser. I don't see why you can't get a small handheld version. Simply modify the eyeball to include a grip and a battery hookup.

If it can't be included, get an arm holster custom made that's skin tight and has enough room for batteries. have the wire on a spool and attach it to the eyeball. Voila, handheld laser.

It might sound cheesy but I don't see why it would be. All you're doing is not replacing your eye, and surely you can take a contact who can supply that if the GM has a huge stick up their ass or some serious misgivings. Its not like its THAT hard to find.

Get a headset. If you're in some sort of office during business hours, pretend to be really busy talking to a client. Briefcase and file folders (have a fake one open that you can read off of, or pretend to).

Carry a coffee mug and a sandwich. Make sure the mug has coffee or some coffee like substance.

Get a small baggy and you can hide stuff in the cup. Pocket knife, holdout pistol, whatever. If you've ever seen Heist with Gene Hackman I'm thinking of the airport scene.

Posted by: Azrael Jul 18 2004, 09:50 AM

If you go the adept path, adhesion (from one of TSS) goes great. So do the web shooters from the same edition.

A narcojet I found also to be pretty good - when caught, you less likely to be killed if you've only knocked their buddies out.

Posted by: Odin Jul 18 2004, 10:56 AM

personally I'd also suggest you carry some monowire makes a great booby trap if you know the guards route and plan to use an alternate escape route. If placed and at knee level it can take down at least a few security personnel and the rest will be too busy calling backup/tending their friends/peeing themselves to keep up the chase.

Posted by: mmu1 Jul 18 2004, 03:27 PM

Thanks for the ideas so far, but I'm just not that big a fan of adepts - and I hate Geasa, I don't believe in my abilities being contingent on outside factors...

Basically, the idea I'm working on is a character who can either kill characters from a distance (sniper) or through infiltration and stealth. I did consider making him charismatic, but I just sadly find myself running out of points for everything I want to do, so that might have to be cut.

Any further ideas with those caveats in mind?

Posted by: Zazen Jul 18 2004, 06:29 PM

Take microscopic vision 'ware. It helps a lot with doing fine electronic work, like bypassing locks and adding bugs and so forth.

I'm a big fan of the eyeball laser microphone, too. You can aim it at some glass near a voice-activated lock and record the passcode just by looking at it from across the room. Stuff like that can be a lot of fun.

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jul 18 2004, 07:43 PM

QUOTE (JaronK)

When I made this type of character, I went for an Albino Human Adept

See, IMO an albino isn't a particularly stealthy concept.

Especially since stealth is easier in being noticed but not remembered (whereas if that fails, CHAR-linked skills come in handy) than trying to not be noticed at all, and if failing, failing spectacularly "Office ninja").

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

Indeed. The CIA calls these people "little grey men;" A bland, undistinguished guy who people will be at ease with, and then forget after turning their back on him.

At Ease would be a great edge if it had survived 2d-->3d ed.

QUOTE (mmu1)

Basically, the idea I'm working on is a character who can either kill characters from a distance (sniper) or through infiltration and stealth. I did consider making him charismatic, but I just sadly find myself running out of points for everything I want to do, so that might have to be cut.

Then decide which he can do and focus on that. You're overextending a starting PC.

Posted by: Modesitt Jul 18 2004, 07:48 PM

QUOTE

Thanks for the ideas so far, but I'm just not that big a fan of adepts - and I hate Geasa, I don't believe in my abilities being contingent on outside factors...

QUOTE

1. No bioware.

Note that this eliminates many of the most popular possibilitys for enhancing a stealthy character and techy types. I would seriously reconsider the no bioware angle if it isn't totally set in stone.

Enhanced Articulation is one of the best pieces of ware in the game, period. Reaction bonus and +1 die to almost everything, including everything you listed for bread and butter skills. Synthacardium is the cheapest skill booster in game as far as nuyen and Bio Index goes, granting two Athletics dice for 15,000 nuyen. Cerebral Boosters can grant you another die of Task Pool, albeit at a very heft nuyen cost. The Mnemonic Enhancer(Post-errata you should just get level 1) is very valuable because it knocks one karma off all of your skill-related karma costs, something useful for any skill-intensive character. Reflex Recorders are easy on bio index and nuyen and can grant bonus dice to Athletics and Stealth.

Others have already pointed out how handy Adepts are.

I'm not saying you CAN'T make a good adept without Bioware or being an adept...but there are no cybernetic to boost your Athletics or Stealth dice pools besides Move By Wire, Skillwires, Oxy-Rush nanites and to a limited degree Hydraulic Jacks and Kid Stealth Legs.

But if it is set in stone...

For vision, you'll want is Low Light Vision and Eyelights at a minimum. Image Link is nifty, but you shouldn't be just plugging things into your datajack without knowing what they are first. Keep something non-cybernetic around for plugging things into. Thermographic Vision is nice too. Flare Compensation is also cheap and useful at times, but glare modifiers are fairly unusual in general. If Essence is tight but nuyen isn't, Electrical Magnification can be useful.

Implanted weapons are, for the most part, worthless. Eye Guns, Oral Guns, and the Oral Slasher each take their own special skill to use. Treasure your skill points.

The Orientation System's effectiveness is dependent entirely on your GM. If your GM just lets you look at the damn thing whenever you like, congratulations, you just implanted a paperweight in your head.

This is something that you may not consider often: Internal Air tank. If your GM just LOVES gas, you will love it and it will love you for without you it is merely a hunk of metal. In addition, it gives you a lot more flexibility when it comes to using gas grenades yourself. No need to wait for it to disperse, just throw it in and then charge in yourself.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 18 2004, 08:45 PM

Technically speaking you can have bioware, just the only pieces available thus far are synthacardium and extended volume lungs

Edit:

QUOTE (Modesitt)

Note that this eliminates many of the most popular possibilitys for enhancing a stealthy character and techy types. I would seriously reconsider the no bioware angle if it isn't totally set in stone.

This isn't his restriction. By the same token, nix on adhesion and the webshooters unless they're very much different from what I envision them to be.

~J

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 18 2004, 10:01 PM

QUOTE (Odin)

That's not really feasable since monowire costs 3k per meter or so. it'll cost you 5-10k every time you lay down a strand.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 18 2004, 10:02 PM

And it's also Avail 24, which kinda nixes the at-chargen part...

~J

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 18 2004, 10:14 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

And it's also Avail 24, which kinda nixes the at-chargen part...

~J

Other than those two points, and how you actually string it somewhere, it is pretty damn useful! I prefer explosives though, personally.

Posted by: Zazen Jul 18 2004, 10:31 PM

QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)

QUOTE (mmu1)

Then decide which he can do and focus on that. You're overextending a starting PC.

I think it's pretty synergistic. He'll need some degree of infiltration and stealth to get to a sniping position unnoticed and then escape, which he'll already have as an infiltrator. From there you slap a rifle in his hands and give him some skill with it. He probably won't even need a (cheap as dirt) smartlink.

Posted by: tjn Jul 18 2004, 10:41 PM

QUOTE (BitBasher)

I prefer explosives though, personally.

Especially those that use the Stuffer Shack "Ding Dong!" announcer as the detonator...

The last thought through the Security Gaurd's mind is "Mmm... soy."

Posted by: Glyph Jul 18 2004, 10:49 PM

Saying "I want a stealthy character" is kind of like saying "I want a character who is good in combat" - you find that you need to be more specialized if you don't want to be mediocre at all of it. Generally, I break stealth down into 4 general roles:

Intrusion:
Getting past physical security, whether it be a maglock, ultrasound detectors, or a retinal scan needed to enter a restricted area.

Your two big skills will be electronics and electronics B/R, for maglocks and a number of other devices. Lockpicking is more rarely needed, so rather than waste 6 skillpoints, you should simply get a Rating: 6 lockpick gun. A cyberear with recorder and playback, and a cybereye with retinal duplication, can get you past voice and retinal scanners. But the most useful cyberware is microscopic vision, which reduces your TNs by 2.

Infiltration:
Looking and acting like you belong in a restricted area. Fast-talking your way past the gate, or "explaining" your suspicious actions to a patrol. Successfully impersonating a security guard, janitor, or research assistant.

Etiquette and Negotiation are the two big skills, and having knowledge skills such as acting or psychology certainly can't hurt. For Edges, both Good Repution and Good Looking and Knows It are not the best ones for a covert ops 'runner to have. The Friendly Face Edge is better, and Blandness helps too.

Sneaking:
Moving about undetected, sneaking past guards and patrols without them being any the wiser.

Stealth is the big skill here, although Athletics is also extremely useful (allowing you to take less-guarded avenues of approach such as climbing or swimming - and it's always good to have a skill that helps you with running and dodging, when your stealth isn't good enough). A few items of cyber, such as climbing claws and balance augmentation, will help you with the athletic side of things.

Wetwork:
Taking out guards silently (it doesn't always need to be lethal). Either sniping, or getting in close to take them down with one quick shot or blow.

For sniping, all that you need is a rifle with a good scope and a halfway-decent rifles skill. You will probably be taking multiple aiming actions, and they will be unlikely to be able to use their Combat Pool, so you will be much more effective than someone involved in a running firefight. The downside is that sniping requires more planning and setup time, and changing position can be hazardous.

Up close, you need a nice, high skill in an easily concealable but very damaging weapon, such as a retractable needle dipped in narcoject (or atropine, for the more lethal types), an Ares Viper aimed at a non-armored area, a dikoted Cougar Fineblade, and so on. Plus, you want Reaction, Reaction, Reaction for those surprise tests - I would recommend at least Wired Reflexes: 2.

Generally, you are better off specializing in 2 or so of these areas. You can only really do all 4 in high build-point games, because covering them all requires you to have decent Attributes, be a real skill monkey, and have probably at least 20 points of resources.

Also, these skills, abilities, and 'ware/gear are only part of being successful. You also need a good network of contacts, reliable information about the place you are planning to hit, and much, much planning.

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 18 2004, 11:39 PM

How about instead of wired reflexes 2 you get boosted reflexes 3?

WR2 = +4R, +2D6 init 165000 nuyen, 3 essence
BR3 = +2R, +2d6 init, 90000 nuyen, 2.8 essence.

Difference of 75000 nuyen is quite a bit. You can get a lot of good stuff for that like cyber eye mods, or even a level of synaptic accelerator.

I know you said no bioware, but for other characters who don't care its a real bargain. Same price only you get another initiative dice.

Plus you don't make the toaster jealous.

Posted by: Aesir Jul 18 2004, 11:47 PM

When reading some of the other responses I realised that being a plain, short, bald guy would be best. A timid, kindly, former bullied upon psycopat that nobody would suspect of having any kind of competence what so ever, eccept maybe a knack for computers or math.

Posted by: Cheesy Answer Jul 18 2004, 11:47 PM

Sort of defeats the purpose of stealth if your boosted reflexes make you pull out a gun and blow away the first suspicious person who taps you on the shoulder.

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 18 2004, 11:56 PM

To my understanding Boosted isn't as bad a wired because its a natural boost. You simply have more neural pathways or whatever crappy BS answer is in the book.

Wired is like, forcibly implanting metallic things and artificial whatnots. That's going to make you a lot more jumpy because its unnatural, so it's only going to do what its programmed to.

With boosted your brain can adjust to it, and will in short order. Same thing for wired, but I imagine boosted doesn't require a reflex trigger to not turn into Idranktoomuchcaffeinethismorningman. You would get used to it and learn how to control it naturally.

Not able to to turn it on/off but more along the lines of not going crazy when someone slams a door.

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jul 19 2004, 12:01 AM

QUOTE (Aesir @ Jul 18 2004, 05:47 PM)

Well...

Someone who can carry off the appearance of being "plain, short, bald", and is perceived as a "timid, kind, former bullied upon psycopat [sic]" but is in reality a highly-trained government operative.

Or Valerie Plame.

QUOTE (Zazen)

QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0 @ Jul 18 2004, 02:43 PM)

QUOTE (mmu1)

Then decide which he can do and focus on that. You're overextending a starting PC.

Um.... No.

Perhaps, depending on his environment there might be a overlap of some of those abilities on the sniper's part. But in general, I can't see what skills a sniper and a infiltrator have in common other than the general "Stealth" skill. Try going to opposite route. What skills does a achetypal sniper have the correlate with skills an infiltrator would need? You're just pressing for a iniltration sniper, but it doesn't work in the opposite with sniping infiltrators.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 19 2004, 12:02 AM

Actually IIRC boosted makes you jumpy exactly like wired and all other forms of technological reflex enhancement except for bioware.

Posted by: Cheesy Answer Jul 19 2004, 12:03 AM

QUOTE

With boosted your brain can adjust to it, and will in short order. Same thing for wired, but I imagine boosted doesn't require a reflex trigger to not turn into Idranktoomuchcaffeinethismorningman. You would get used to it and learn how to control it naturally.

Not everyone plays by the same house rules though.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 19 2004, 12:11 AM

EDIT: I'm a moron.

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jul 19 2004, 12:11 AM

I'd like a page reference to how Boosted doesn't affect people like Wired does in causing them to be overly excited to outside stimuli.

There's a reason the Reflext Trigger was invented. Or, so I thought. Boosted, being a crappy, poor man's Wired, doesn't strike me as being in any way advantageous to Wired in any manner. Especially in it conveying some magical ability to temper people to being overly jumpy and quick on the draw.

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 19 2004, 12:47 AM

There is no page for that, because it does. Synaptic Accelerators or Kamikaze, on the other hand, do not since the penalty only applies to cybernetic implants. I personally think drugs should be included, but that's just me.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 19 2004, 01:01 AM

I agree that drugs should be included. The thing about Boosted is that, as a treatment, you can't trigger it. You don't have the option of using a reflex trigger, rather than getting it automatically.

~J

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 19 2004, 03:38 AM

I think there was a discussion about this a month or so ago. It was about the extent that WR makes you jumpy.

You have to common sense this. Just because the book doesn't say I can't fly doesn't make it possible for mundanes.

Part of the discussion came to adjustment. You come out of surgery with a brand spankin' new WR/BR system. No matter which it is, you're going to be jumpy, nervous, etc, etc. Your body isn't acclimated to the changes yet. It'll take you a few weeks to adjust.

Its like the sleep cycle. You develop a routine. You can change it, but it takes time.

Boosted reflexes augments the body's natural reflexes. I swear I read something in one of these books giving a paragraph or so of explanation, but I could be confusing this with what was discussed. Either way it says natural, so the exact mechanics of it aren't really necessary for what we're talking about.

Wired Reflexes IMPLANTS THINGS. The body can't control what isn't natural. It can influence and adapt but it will never be good as natural. Take for example the modern day prosthetics. Say I lost my arm so now I have this artificial replacement. I can manipulate it for simple ranges of motion, but its not nearly as good as a real arm nor am I able to control it like one.

Thus, the WR will always be active and the body cannot control it. Whatever technology is used to connect it to your senses isn't something your brain can get control of. Without that reflex trigger all you can do is adjust to constantly wanting to draw your weapons and defend yourself. It'll take a while and a lot of willpower, but you can get used to it.

Boosted does the same thing only its homegrown. Your brain can learn to control it and adapting to life in the fast lane will be significantly easier.

Again, you can't turn it on or off, nor can you reduce the effective level of the boost but you're going to be in control of your reactions a lot more than WR. Once you're used to it and your senses are adapted to what's really a threat and what isn't you aren't going to be super hyperactive man. You're always going to be a bit jumpy, but its going to appear that you're just a jumpy person. To my understanding that's going to be pretty normal in the 2060's, definitely for "criminals in their element". It'd be expected I imagine.

With WR its not going to be natural. Its like cyberlimbs, spend enough time and something won't feel right. Your company has a decent shot at figuring out you've got a limb. WR will be harder to detect, but a sense of "this person's on edge, but a bit TOO on edge" may manifest itself.

Whether it matters or not probably depends on their own paranoia levels and the blood alcohol level.

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 19 2004, 03:41 AM

Tell yourself what you like, but the rules are quite explicit. Any cybernetic boost to Initiative gives you the jumpiness problem unless it expressly says otherwise. This includes Boosted Reflexes which makes no such statement. If Wired Reflexes without the Reflex Trigger were the only cybernetic implant to suffer this problem, then it would be a problem of Wired Reflexes not a blanket rule for all cybernetic Initiative boosts.

Synaptic Accelerators, being bioware, is immune to this effect as is all bioware unless it expressly says otherwise.

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 19 2004, 06:08 AM

Can you point me to a page with that rule stated because otherwise its down to GM ruling.

And its not really cybernetic. WR is. BR is an electrochemical treatment to naturally augment the body's natural reflexes. Where's the cyber? hmm? Point it out to me and I'll buy it.

Its paid for with essence, but in all honesty it shouldn't be. The BBB is meant to be stand-alone. BR is really bioware, but bioware didn't exist in the BBB so its still cyberware.

Frankly, BR should be included in the M&M under bioware. It does what a synaptic accelerator does.

Now BR doesn't say WHAT is included in the electrochemical procedure. It probably stimulates an increase in the neural pathways. Its not artificial because if it were you could remove it. But no, its permanent.

And did you read the entire post? Did you interpret? I said you'd GET USED TO IT JUST LIKE WITH WIRED REFLEXES. Capped to get your attention. WR will seem artifical if you spend enough time with someone who has it active, just like a cyberlimb would. It'll be harder to detect and its not like you can say "oh he's got WR" more like what I said, "something doesn't feel right. He's just a bit too jumpy.

As used to it as you can get, your brain can never control it as well as with BR. You cannot adapt to it. You are stuck with it.

Its going to be harder to get adjusted to the WR because its not a constant thing like BR would be. WR would fire off whenever it gets triggered, which can be a door slamming, someone yelling, someone attaching two metal objects together that sound like a gun getting cocked, whatever your imagination can think of.

BR will be harder to adapt to INITIALLY because its 24/7. WR at least doesn't do that. People adapt quickly to new situations, its one of the few gifts we can all claim a part of. Being forced to live on the edge without an avenue of escape forces you to adapt to it quicker or die.

If you're a shadowrunner I think its safe to assume you made the leap unless you want to be otherwise.

So yeah, BR is basically bioware. Since its so cheap compared to a SA I can live with my GM being a dick and forcing me to not shoot someone opening their car door, and I can even live with it being called cyberware. Game balance kind of demands it, at least until its ascertained as to what it is exactly.

This is just what I think. It makes sense, just not in the senseless world of SR. Its pretty obvious that a lot of things in these rulebooks fell off and hit its head trying to slide down the logic pole, so discussion about it is quite easy.

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 19 2004, 06:47 AM

Oy.

Man & Machine, p. 45, "Effects of Increased Reflexes." Easily found in the Index.

Despite your preference to call it bioware, Boosted Reflexes is clearly and without doubt labeled as cyberware. It is, in no way, bioware. Whether it should be or not is a moot point. It's cyberware and is prone to the jumpiness factor. It's always been an inferior choice over Wired Reflexes for that very reason, amongst others.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 19 2004, 08:06 AM

QUOTE

Its paid for with essence, but in all honesty it shouldn't be. The BBB is meant to be stand-alone. BR is really bioware, but bioware didn't exist in the BBB so its still cyberware.

Frankly, BR should be included in the M&M under bioware. It does what a synaptic accelerator does.

The game designers disagree with you. This item was added in the first book that introduced bioware, it was originally in an expansion book and was only added to the BBB in 3rd edition. Yet, in the previous editions as in this one, it is specifically and purposely cyberware, as it is a purely technological process, not involved with bioware at all. It is also non removable, well at least untis SOTA came out.

It has always been an inferior yet chepaer alternative to wired reflexes for those that couldn't affors the real thing.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 19 2004, 11:39 AM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

Now BR doesn't say WHAT is included in the electrochemical procedure. It probably stimulates an increase in the neural pathways. Its not artificial because if it were you could remove it. But no, its permanent.

No, it probably soaks the peripheral nervous system in some conductivity-enhancing chemical. If the neural pathways were being augmented, then the jumpiness probably wouldn't be a factor, but the game is very explicit that it is a factor.

~J

Posted by: TheScamp Jul 19 2004, 02:48 PM

QUOTE

This item was added in the first book that introduced bioware, it was originally in an expansion book and was only added to the BBB in 3rd edition.

As a side note, this isn't exactly true. Shadowtech first introduced Bioware, but Boosted showed up much earlier in the Street Samurai Catalog.

And the rule clearly states that it applies to "wired reflexes or any other kind of cybernetic reflex enhancements". Even with the Bioware category available, Boosted is still squarely in the Cyber category. Whether it's a completely artificial treatment to existing neural pathways or the implantation of little electronic boxes, cybernetic enhancements are not natural. Boosted is no more homegrown in this regard then is Wired.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 19 2004, 03:42 PM

Holy crap, you're right! I thought Boosted showed up first in Shadowtech! My bad!

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Jul 19 2004, 10:19 PM

Holy crap, Batman! We're OT!

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 19 2004, 10:44 PM

QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0)

Holy crap, Batman! We're OT!

Right you are Robin!

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 19 2004, 11:05 PM

When are we NOT off-topic?

My problem with boosted reflexes being cyberware is you aren't replacing any of your meat bod with metal parts, gadgets, and assorted doohickeys.

The way it reads its certainly not cyberware. Change or expand the definition and I'll buy it because its like, the only piece of cyberware to not artificially replace something.

Oh and thanks for the rule check. I had a pretty strong feeling that what you were saying was in the rules somewhere, but I wasn't about to go check the books for something that honestly doesn't matter.

And can any of you explain to me why the jumpiness is a permanent issue for it? Like I keep saying it boosts the natural reflexes and its permanent. Your brain is forced to adapt to it and because its natural you can learn to control it a lot better. I'm not saying you aren't prone to jumpiness but I AM saying you're less likely to succumb to it.

Wired Reflexes fires off when you detect an offensive action of any kind. You tell me how easy it is to stop a machine from doing its job if its not already turned off. Its something you can learn to deal with, but never to the extent of Boosted. With boosted its less likely you're going to lose control after you'v had it for a while and you're certainly going to adapt to it PDQ because you have NO OTHER CHOICE. Given the option of death or adaptation, your body will go for survival ten times out of ten.

Its also going to appear a helluva lot more natural than wired EVER WILL. Wired will cause you to twitch every few seconds in kind of a spasm I imagine because its not constant as WR isn't boosting anything if you aren't in combat. Boosted will make you just appear constantly on edge and nervous. Who's going to suspect anything more than a case of paranoia? Certainly not going to alarm anyone out in public unless they themselves are paranoid and well that really doesn't matter now does it?

None of you are responding to this. Instead you're wrongfully assuming I'm saying the following: BOOSTED REFLEXES DOES NOT CAUSE TWITCHINESS. This is INCORRECT.

Instead I'm trying to say: BOOSTED REFLEXES DOES NOT CAUSE TWITCHINESS AS OFTEN AS WIRED REFLEXES NOR IS IT GOING TO APPEAR AS ARTIFICIAL AS WIRED REFLEXES BECAUSE ITS A CONSTANT STATE OF UNEASINESS UNLIKE THE SPURTS AND SPASMS OF WIRED REFLEXES.

Now by extention I'd also like to know the following: what, if any differences in TN would you apply? If you apply sense, you can learn to control it much better than the automation of the WR. It'll take time but it could be done.

Perhaps and edge? "Extreme Self Control" or something. 1 point for boosted, 2 points for WR. Do not apply the additional +1TN to all perception tests per extra initiative dice for determining character actions when resisting the effects of reflex enhancement.

2 points for WR because of what I've been yelling but also because you can negate the additional 1d6 initiative dice, whereas BR is only +2 max. Honestly, for replacing 5/6 of your being with METAL GOD DAMN PARTS shouldn't be as cheap as the replacing ~1/2 your being with electrochemical hooziwhatsits.

BR isn't really inferior to WR since you can also get the SA. Unless your GM has a serious stick up their ass, its compatible with BR.

So WR3 is 5 (egh) essence, +6R +3d6I
And BR3 + SA 2 = 2.8e, +2R, +4d6 I.

The max initiative you can roll with WR would be +24. With the SA and BR3 its 26.

Average rolls of 3 in init dice and its WR for +15 and BR+SA for 14.

No real difference in initiative unless you're a shitty roller like I tend to be, but it won't matter WHAT you have if you roll badly.

Cost wise its 290000 for BR + SA. 500000 for WR3.

So by itself BR is inferior stat wise, but a steal bonus wise as you can get more bang for your buck.

Its not munchkin if that's what you're thinking because if you're going for WR3 that's just "as bad" and someone who doesn't want to pay 5e but still wants Initiative up the wahzoo can go with what I suggested for a cheaper all around alternative.

No reflex trigger does kind of suck, but setting off every fragging alarm on the planet with that WR blows ass too.

No VCR? not really a problem because VCRs are so damned expensive anyways. No WR makes sense anyways because you'd probably explode from all the stress and its tremendously munchy.

Can't be removed? I don't think that matters. Who's going to remove their WR once its implanted? At least, not of their own willpower. I'm sure you can salvage some of the parts if you were into that sort of thing.

Posted by: Cheesy Answer Jul 19 2004, 11:42 PM

Thing is, nothing in the books mention anything about a person getting used to cybernetic reflex enhancements. You can say that that's how it works, and implement a house rule, but to use it to argue a canon point is just plain wrong.

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 19 2004, 11:52 PM

QUOTE

Instead I'm trying to say: BOOSTED REFLEXES DOES NOT CAUSE TWITCHINESS AS OFTEN AS WIRED REFLEXES NOR IS IT GOING TO APPEAR AS ARTIFICIAL AS WIRED REFLEXES BECAUSE ITS A CONSTANT STATE OF UNEASINESS UNLIKE THE SPURTS AND SPASMS OF WIRED REFLEXES.

That's true to an extent. The twitchiness factor is directly related to the number of Initiative dice the boost grants. Boosted Reflexes 1 and Wired Reflexes 1 have identical twitchiness factors. Levels 2 and 3 do not; Boosted is more mild in that regard.

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Jul 19 2004, 11:59 PM

True. The flavour text for WR also mentions that "Users of wired reflexes tend to be twitchy, especially if they lack a reflex trigger". Whereas BR doesn't mention anything about it. They do both, of course, suffer the effects of the rules on p45 of M&M, but the flavour text does, very slightly, lead you to believe that WR is a bit more twitchy.

...and then there's MBW...

At level 4 it adds the most (cyber) dice to initiative out of the lot. So the guy with that is REALLY on edge, although that's pretty much the least of his worries I suppose.

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 20 2004, 12:01 AM

If its not mention its not canon. Minor nitpick. You can't claim it is anymore than I can so take that.

We don't talk about MBW.

Posted by: TheScamp Jul 20 2004, 12:03 AM

QUOTE

The way it reads its certainly not cyberware. Change or expand the definition and I'll buy it because its like, the only piece of cyberware to not artificially replace something.

Bone lacing replaces nothing, it simply adds a latticework of the certain material to the bones. An electrochemical treatment could very easily do exactly the same thing to the nervous system, adding some sort of superconductive layer to the spinal column, for example.

QUOTE

BOOSTED REFLEXES DOES NOT CAUSE TWITCHINESS AS OFTEN AS WIRED REFLEXES NOR IS IT GOING TO APPEAR AS ARTIFICIAL AS WIRED REFLEXES BECAUSE ITS A CONSTANT STATE OF UNEASINESS UNLIKE THE SPURTS AND SPASMS OF WIRED REFLEXES.

Shockingly enough, this is already taken into account by the current rules (as the Monkey said).

Posted by: Cheesy Answer Jul 20 2004, 12:06 AM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

If its not mention its not canon.

Minor nitpick. You can't claim it is anymore than I can so take that.

You're right. Except that I'm not the one claiming it. You are.

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 20 2004, 12:19 AM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

If its not mention its not canon.

Minor nitpick. You can't claim it is anymore than I can so take that.

M&M p. 45 is rather definitive on the subject. Your personal interpretation has no foundation in the rules whatsoever.

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jul 20 2004, 12:45 AM

also muscle replacement doesn't replace anything, if you read the text on it

Posted by: TheScamp Jul 20 2004, 01:18 AM

You mean the part where it says, "vat-grown synthetic muscles replace the user's own"?

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 20 2004, 01:21 AM

My "if its not mentioned...." comment was directed at the notion that you can't adjust to it. He basically said its not possible, there's nothing in the rules about it, so its GM call. Hope this clarifies.

You people are missing the point about my "its the only piece of cyberware to like, not replace anything" I was trying to convey the point that you aren't adding anything foreign. I'm starting to get kind of tired with this debate as nothing new is really being said anymore so I'm not caring as much how I word things. Sorry.

Bone lacing adds. muscle replacement adds. You can't control it naturally, only influence. Bone lacing doesn't need control as you add to the bones, so it the bone hits something or moves, the BL goes along for the ride.

MR is harder to buy but its still not a really big deal. A muscle either pushes or pulls, not both. Its not overly hard to imagine it being worked into the central nervous system so that it works in perfect coordination WHICH WOULD HAVE TO BE DONE. I doubt that's really possible but its not really worth debating as it doesn't matter. MR isn't going to make you fly off the handle and shoot someone in the face.

Wired Reflexes is hooked up to everything in the body but its certainly not fluid. Like I said, it activates in spurts, firing off electric signals to the rest of the body. It'll be passively active until an offending stimuli's prescene is detected at which point it fires off.

BR on the other hand is ALWAYS ACTIVE. Its ALWAYS FIRING SIGNALS. They aren't electric. They're the natural signals produced by the various glands (I forget the scientific name. Shame on me) and distributed across the body.

Initially its going to cause all sorts of hell. After a day or two of this it'll noticeably be improved. You're still frazzled, but you're learning to cope. It'll improve little by little over the course of let's say, a month. I don't know how long it takes to adapt to a dramatic change but its not going to take much longer than that I imagine.

It doesn't matter though because runners are like I said, kind of presumed to be at home with their implants. BR is going to be controlled a lot easier than WR.

You know why? The body doesn't NEED all of its nerve endings all the time. Its not going to use what it doesn't need. Now with BR I'm sure there's something in there that will rotate their use because they'll eventually wither and die without use.

This is what addiction does. You take a drug and it clogs the ends of your nerves just before the synapse so the neurochemicals (whatever they're really called..ugh I feel like an idiot) can't get through. Your body's solution? Grow more.

It'll keep doing this so long as that entrance to the synapse is blocked. Stop taking the drug? It gets cleared. Neurochemicals can flow through the once again. What happens to the unused ones? They complain bitterly. They whine and complain because they're hungry for stimuli and not getting any.

I think this is what's attributed to the shakes and discomfort associated with withdrawal. Your body is going through hell because its adapting to the sudden change of not having the drugs its become accustomed to using.

Anyways with BR that's what's going to happen. These nerve endings will be there and we'll presume kept functional (after all 2.8e is a helluva lot to pay so it makes sense). Normal life? Not going to be a big hassle.

Life threatened? All of those extra neural pathways will be pumping neurochemicals (can someone PLEASE tell me their real name?) quickly and efficiently. This will give you more chemicals to work with, increasing their effect, and thus, giving you boosted reflexes.

The same thing is accomplished with WR only its artifical electrical stimulation, not something you're going to really get used to.

I'm rather annoyed with the people who wrote these books. I doubt they picked up a science book or attended any basic anatomy and physiology class. I've taken an entry level one and I know enough to be able to debate it.

I took the class a couple months ago and I've forgotten a lot of it unfortunately. I've actually got a CD encyclopedia containing 4 CDs of information on the human body. I bet the designers of this game could've made jolly good use of it.

I'm not saying I know everything but gods, this is basic stuff and it should have been accounted for. If I were designing a game that I cared about (which for me, would be a prerequisite, no questions asked) I'dve researched it. Asked a few people, seen some movies, whatever.

For a high-tech world you need to have a solid background on the basics. How hard is that? How LONG would that take? Not very. Hell, a few months in basic A+P, electronics, physics, etc types of courses and you've probably got enough factual information to work with.

Shadowrun's got an interesting history and a cool atmosphere but damn...a lot of what's in these books is bleh. Before you go and say "If you don't like it, don't play" slap yourself because if I didn't care, I wouldn't debate it, as I'm sure a lot of you do.

I care about this game. I want to succeed at it and I want to understand it. When fallacies, blank spots, hazy areas, and loopholes abound it leads to a lot of discussion.

Whether this all matters or not I don't know. I love debating, especially when its kept civil. I've enjoyed myself, its getting kind of stale, but that's to be expected.

Posted by: Cheesy Answer Jul 20 2004, 01:43 AM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

My "if its not mentioned...." comment was directed at the notion that you can't adjust to it.

Of course you can. If what's in the book doesn't make sense, you're free to do whatever you want with it. Doesn't make it canon though, since you're changing game mechanics that have been clearly stated. Saying that your twitchiness should gradually wear away with BR is a whole different matter than saying your twitchiness will gradually wear away. Justifying the reasons for your house rule doesn't make it any less of a house rule.

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 20 2004, 02:08 AM

you can rationalize all you want, but it's a house rule. All cybernetic systems are as twitchy as each other on a die for die basis.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 20 2004, 02:10 AM

The twitchiness comes from your reflexes working faster than your mind does. That problem doesn't come into play with synaptic accelerators or magic, because those accelerate your mind too. Wired and boosted, however, just increase the speed at which signals travel around, meaning your spine does a lot more of the talking.

/possible interpretation that, while non-canon, fits into canon (which "they'll get used to it" does not)

~J

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 20 2004, 02:33 AM

QUOTE

Saying that your twitchiness should gradually wear away with BR is a whole different matter than saying your twitchiness will gradually wear away. Justifying the reasons for your house rule doesn't make it any less of a house rule.

I do believe you are incorrect. I haven't said it should GO AWAY. I said you should ADJUST. That means ITS STILL THERE only NOT AS BIG A PROBLEM.

Oh and don't try to throw in "faster than your mind works" because we only use like, 10% of the mind. Its entirely likely that this chemical process stimulates reproduction of the nerve clusters in the brain responsible for reaction (Cerebellum? Cerebrum? Somewhere in one/both of those I believe). Wired Reflexes probably implants artificial tissues to do the same thing.

Our minds are capable of working a helluva lot faster than we can react, and in fact does so already. Conscious thought vs unconscious reaction is massively different. What we instinctively do works at much faster speeds than what we think about doing, then actually do. The speed is basically from "okay I'm going to do this" to "I'm doing this right now." Instinct jumps all gaps and bypasses all bridges.

Example: sex drive is linked to the lower part of our brain that's reptilian (I think) in design. Its linked directly to the senses, BYPASSING THE REST OF THE MIND. This is in charge of pheromones and whatnot. It has the ability to directly stimulate the responsible glands into producing them. I think it also increases body temperature in the process.

Its not totally in control but the cerebrum which controls your personality isn't in full control. It can work against the urge to just like, strip off your clothes and go at it with whatever's nearby but it can't stop it. Unless you're drinking alcohol you can mediate it effectively. Alcohol blocks the synapse entrances by clogging the pores so neurotransmitters (that's the word I wanted!) can't get through. Enough alcohol and your brain basically shuts down. It says "good luck buddy. I'll be back in the morning and I'll be complaining" because it realizes that its got no hope of stopping anything.

alcohol also dehydrates the brain which is what a hangover is. Drinking caffeine does the same thing, so coffee probably won't do much besides increase the hangover. Water fixes it.

So yeah, its entirely possible to make more use of your brain. Its been shown that the brain is capable of extreme adjustment. I saw a video in class about this woman with a brain the size of a grapefruit or something and she was able to function perfectly normal. Another woman had a brain the shape of a football and was also perfectly normal.

I also learned that the brain is plastic up until like, teenager years. Then it begins pruning out all the unused pathways. Learned piano as a kid but stopped when you hit puberty? Brain closes those connections, killing them off and re-routing them to other stuff that you're actively using.

Adult brains are far less malleable. Your brain is specialized unlike in earlier years, so learning new things is much more difficult.

In 60 year's time its (according to SR) possible to make someone move at matrix speeds (just for conceptual basis) compared to an average person, so I think its safe to assume scientists have figured out how to make use of the under used portions of our mind, at least in the sense of increasing the speed at which it works.

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 20 2004, 02:36 AM

QUOTE

I do believe you are incorrect. I haven't said it should GO AWAY. I said you should ADJUST. That means ITS STILL THERE only NOT AS BIG A PROBLEM.

Say it all you like. Write as many long-winded posts on the subject as you like. But it's still a house rule and has no bearing on the reality of the game itself whatsoever.

Posted by: Cheesy Answer Jul 20 2004, 02:43 AM

QUOTE

I do believe you are incorrect. I haven't said it should GO AWAY. I said you should ADJUST. That means ITS STILL THERE only NOT AS BIG A PROBLEM.

The point still applies. By canon, having Boosted Reflexes will make you as twitchy as the respective grade of Wired Reflexes (1 and 2 to 1, 2 to 2) until you have it removed. You're altering the game mechanics and claiming that it's canon. That's the issue here. Not whether or not Boosted should work as it's written now.

You can keep on writing pages and pages of scientific justifications, but keep in mind that I'm not saying you're wrong, or that you can't adjust to BR. Just that if you do choose to play it that way, it's a house rule - nothing more, nothing less.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 20 2004, 02:44 AM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

Oh and don't try to throw in "faster than your mind works" because we only use like, 10% of the mind. Its entirely likely that this chemical process stimulates reproduction of the nerve clusters in the brain responsible for reaction (Cerebellum? Cerebrum? Somewhere in one/both of those I believe). Wired Reflexes probably implants artificial tissues to do the same thing.

Our minds are capable of working a helluva lot faster than we can react, and in fact does so already. Conscious thought vs unconscious reaction is massively different. What we instinctively do works at much faster speeds than what we think about doing, then actually do. The speed is basically from "okay I'm going to do this" to "I'm doing this right now." Instinct jumps all gaps and bypasses all bridges.

First off, the 10% figure is bull. Even if it weren't, there's nothing to suggest that this would activate the rest, but it is most certainly bull. People use most of the usable parts of their brains.

Second off, yes, you provide another possible interpretation. However, my interpretation works with canon, while yours contradicts it. Were it not for the clearly designated mechanics already set down, we'd be on equal footing. As it is, it could be my way or it could not be, but it cannot be your explanation.

And a lot of that subconscious reaction is the spine talking as well.

~J

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jul 20 2004, 02:46 AM

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html

Edit: not a response to Kag

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 20 2004, 03:09 AM

First off I wasn't trying to claim that we use EXACLY 10%. You missed the point guys. I was trying to convey that we don't use a whole lot of it. We certainly aren't using it to its fullest potential. So you can stop feeling superior now. Stop taking everything so god damn literal. Hopefully you should know how to critically analyze by this point in the game. You apparently missed the boat on this attempt.

You could have you know, done what I did and ask for a rules page (or in this instance, some proof) instead of being Mr.Bland and assuming you knew exactly what I meant and that I was trying to pass off my 10% statement as solid fact. I wasn't trying to do that and shame on you for thinking otherwise.

QUOTE

You're altering the game mechanics and claiming that it's canon. That's the issue here. Not whether or not Boosted should work as it's written now.

That's not entirely accurate. I'm not claiming any of what I said is canon, nor did I ever. I've been saying this is how it should be. Its more or less a possible suggestion for an update at some point, or things to consider.

And its also not the ONLY issue we're discussing, nor did I ever really offer any resistance to the fact that your claims of what I'm saying is a house rule.

I've just ignored it because I never stated "this is how I run things because because because blah blah blah". I've stated this is how I think things should be run not that I AM running it.

Certainly if I were in charge and wanted to I would ask my players what they thought of it and take a vote before I said ha ha just kidding this is how it goes so take it or leave it.

No I'm not serious about the "ha ha" and I shall slap you if you didn't get wise immediately.

QUOTE

You can keep on writing pages and pages of scientific justifications, but keep in mind that I'm not saying you're wrong, or that you can't adjust to BR. Just that if you do choose to play it that way, it's a house rule - nothing more, nothing less.

Its not on purpose. I'm not sitting here thinking "how can I make this longish and boring" its just how I am. I like to discuss, rant and rave. Whee.

And again, i've never said it is canon only that it should be.

Aren't misunderstandings and misinterpretations fun?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 20 2004, 03:19 AM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul @ Jul 19 2004, 10:09 PM)

But that's still wrong. As the link HoV posted kindly reminds us, if there were any significant portion of the brain that wasn't being used it would quickly become unusable. If you spend a few weeks in total, utter, complete darkness, you'll go blind because the visual parts of your brain will just stop working. There's no "don't use a whole lot of it", we use all or nearly all of it.

QUOTE

You could have you know, done what I did and ask for a rules page (or in this instance, some proof) instead of being Mr.Bland and assuming you knew exactly what I meant and that I was trying to pass off my 10% statement as solid fact. I wasn't trying to do that and shame on you for thinking otherwise.

It's solid fiction. It's not just imprecise, it's an outright lie.

QUOTE

You're entitled to think that this is how things should be, but you're on extremely shaky ground when it comes to convincing others. There are ways to explain the current system fairly well, at least as well as your proposed system.

QUOTE

And again, i've never said it is canon only that it should be.

Then you managed to mislead quite a few people. Which is more logical: that we're all incapable of comprehending English, or that you expressed yourself poorly?

You've said it should be, we (or at least I) have said that it shouldn't be.

~J

Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 20 2004, 03:20 AM

I completely disagree that it "should be" that way. Boosted Reflexes shouldn't be a cybernetic modification -- chemical or genetech would make more sense whereas bioware wouldn't -- but it should still have the twitchiness factor. It's basically a permanent drug boost. It's like being on PCP 24/7. That's why it's a cheap alternative to the much more expensive and effective Wired Reflexes; it's a drug treatment even gangers can afford (relatively). It's not supposed to be better than Wired.

You may get used to it to some degree, but that's accounted for as part of the healing process to begin with... just like with every other permanent augmentation. I'm sure it takes time to get used to that new cybernetic arm, or those heightened senses, or having a computer in your brain, or etc.

Posted by: Cheesy Answer Jul 20 2004, 03:34 AM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

And again, i've never said it is canon only that it should be.

Of course. That's why you kept on putting it forth as fact. That's why you kept on arguing with me even though the only position I took on this whole thing was that your interpretation is a house rule.

QUOTE

Aren't misunderstandings and misinterpretations fun?

Almost as fun as backpedaling on an argument is.

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 20 2004, 03:44 AM

Its not an outright lie kage. Scientists know precisely jack squat about the human mind. From what I read in my text book and from what my teacher showed us (you guessed it, another video. I swear he has a million health documentaries...) its plausible.

Its not a lie. I'll admit that I don't know everything but I'm sure there's a scientist out there who would agree with the concepts I've put forth. There are skeptics and there are believers, someday down the line there will be enough information to make both happy. Until that day (and its probably YEARS away) all you can do is say "I disagree and you're an idiot."

Anyways..

I haven't mislead anyone. I admit to not expressing myself as well as I would have liked, but who doesn't suffer from this? Its just as much your fault for misinterpretting as it is mine for not being crystal clear.

I never said that it was canon. I said it SHOULD be not that it IS this way or that way.

Its not misleading. I'll admit to confusing and a bit muddled, but well, no one's exactly helping me out and I'm no expert. Just how am I supposed to provide all the facts and fill in all the holes when its my opinion and the rulesbooks don't really help?

My only real aim was to convince you that what I'm thinking is possible. Of course totally convincing you is all well and good but that's not what I wanted to do. I tried, just as you, and failed, just as you to sway me.

We've more or less agreed to disagree and that's fine with me. I'm the unpopular "let's change it all!" POV so any admission that "yeah it COULD be possible" is good enough.

Now moving on.

CAN YOU PLEASE GOD DAMN READ MY POSTS?!??!?!

Ugh. Everyone who thinks I'm saying that there should be no problem IS WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

I keep trying to say THAT ITS NOT ENTIRELY ACCURATE and not everyone is picking up on it.

I'm taking to capping stuff because you may not be reading my entire post, or are reading it but its so long that your brain is banging itself against your skull and you're missing the point here and there. Understandable, and understandably annoying.

I am trying to convey that YOU CAN ADJUST TO IT AND THEREFORE DO NOT SUFFER THESE FITS OF UNWANTED ACTIONS AS OFTEN AS WITH WIRED REFLEXES NOR ARE THEY AS HARD TO RESIST.

BR3 conveys TN6. That's a 16% chance of not going haywire. The books says nothing about how many successes are required. NONE.

So its up to the GM and player to compromise. Frankly I'd say that you have to get a # of successes equal to the level of the boost to completely blunt the impulse.

Example: Someone slams a car door, you roll the perception test. We'll say you have BR3 and the TN is 6.

You have intelligence 6 so you roll and get 1 success.

Its decided the impulse is to push this person down. You push them, but you manage to restrain yourself enough to mediate the blow and simply push them back a few inches.

Same test, only this time you get 2 successes. This time you get as far as laying your hands on them before stopping.

Same test, now you get 3 successes. You start to move towards them but are able to stop yourself before you do anything to draw any attention, having successfully blocked your impulse.

For WR this makes sense because you have no god damn choice. The machines you have in you are going auto-pilot so yes its going to be a real pain in the ass.

For BR, something wired into your natural body, and thus able to be controlled by your brain, yes its hard but not that hard.

I don't agree with TN6 at all. I think TN4 (base perception, right?) is better. 50/50. Hell, TN5 is still good at essentially 40/60 in favor of reacting.

Its not NEARLY as hard to resist NATURAL urges as it is MECHANICAL urges. You turn that machine on and see how well you can stop it. All the self-control in the world isn't going to make involuntary reactions easier. It'll make DESTRUCTIVE ones (such as pulling a gun) easier, but that's a separate test and is covered in the book.

I have no problem with failing the initial perception test then having to roll willpower just as with WR because you've already elected to react so there's nothing you can do except not get yourself arrested with any luck.

This is of course, also assuming the impulse is to BE destructive not like, hit the deck or hide behind the mailbox.

This brings up an interesting point my friend made. I was discussing this with him and he brought up combat veterans.

What about them? You know how it is in the movies, Combat veteran zones out and relives the battles, or hits the deck when a carhorn goes off, etc, etc.

Sure they don't have wired reflexes but its still something the brain has learned and become accoustomed to.

How would this impact a life in the shadows? If you've been running for a few years, what kinds of damage has it done? How paranoid have you really become, willful or not?

Posted by: BitBasher Jul 20 2004, 03:53 AM

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html

This has come up on this forum before.

Just cause your teacher tells you somehting doesn't mean he isn't full of shit.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 20 2004, 03:55 AM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

I'm too tired to address the rest of the post right now, so I'll leave that 'till morning. This, though:

Scientists know pretty much all there is to know about what neurons are firing when if they've got the patient in the proper equipment, or at least most of it. A lot of what each individual part of the brain does is unknown, but it's verifiable what parts are firing at any given time, and it's also verifiable that parts that go completely unused shut down permanently.

~J

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 20 2004, 04:00 AM

He didn't just TELL us. We watched a video, read a short blurb in the book. If its in a printed book in a school its got to have some sort of basis. Its a fairly recent book too.

And he didn't just cover one side, we got both. You don't use a lot, but it doesn't mean it'd be easy to and its probably not going to be something you can consciously influence. The way he described it, it functions like a backup. I lost the part of my brain responsible for speech. Its got a shot at rewiring it in due time so that I can talk normally (or close to it anyways) once again by using parts of the brain that don't see any real use.

and like I said we know almost nothing. Just because its a theory today doesn't mean its real. "The world is flat" was once a proven fact until some dumb shmuck discovered it wasn't totally by accident.

Thats more or less how advancement happens in science I imagine. Some guy fiddles around and BAM! goldmine.

That's what happened with Watson and Crick. They stole (scooped is the term my teacher taught us for this behavior) the research done in collaboration with Rosalind Franklin and some other guy who's name I forget.

They were all working together but Rosalind was stubborn as all hell. She accidently discovered a big piece of the missing proof W+C needed to verify their DNA structure theory.

Happened totally by accident. Sure they had formulas and theories but in the end it came down to plain ol' chance.

So yeah, my teacher isn't full of shit. If he is, so are you.

Posted by: Person 404 Jul 20 2004, 04:03 AM

QUOTE

If its in a printed book in a school its got to have some sort of basis.

Not to say anything about this particular case, but this is not a good assumption to make.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 20 2004, 04:07 AM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

The way he described it, it functions like a backup. I lost the part of my brain responsible for speech. Its got a shot at rewiring it in due time so that I can talk normally (or close to it anyways) once again by using parts of the brain that don't see any real use.

Here we have a misunderstanding of redundancy and reapportionment. Just because something gets shuttled around to serve a different task doesn't mean it wasn't doing anything before.

~J

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 20 2004, 04:19 AM

The real stress was that we aren't using our brains to the fullest possible extent. I don't really care what scientists have to say at this point because its not infallible. Sure they've got a lot of things figured out partially, but they will never get the whole deal. They can get enough to satisfy most everyone, but what we know now about the human brain hardly qualifies as anything worthy of more than a "good job, keep it up. Looks like you might be on to something."

To Person:

Yeah I know. I live in Massachusetts, where the taxes are high and the education system is good. Its pretty well up there apparently. I'm sure a search could provide some link to data giving the ranks of education quality for the states. Whatever. Doesn't really matter.

For a schoolbook its a lot safer, especially with the fact that the teacher and books generally say "we don't have all the facts in, but this is what we've got."

I'm sure in ten years what we thought was good stuff is going to be obsolete or vastly expanded upon. My AP Bio teacher got to telling us about all the stuff that made the newest edition of the Campbell biology books that weren't in the previous one, and how whole sections of what we learned weren't in the books she had when she was in highschool and college.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 20 2004, 04:24 AM

QUOTE (Cursedsoul)

It is pretty up there. My AP physics teacher still went through and listed off the various places where the textbook had flat-out gotten it wrong.

And you're right, scientists aren't infallible. That doesn't defend the viewpoint "well, they've proven that this is wrong but they could be wrong themselves, so let's go with this even though that has evidence and this doesn't, because they could be wrong." Or does the act of providing evidence make something fallible? Science as a faith-based initiative!

~J

Posted by: Cursedsoul Jul 20 2004, 04:38 AM

All I'm trying to do on that issue is say that what's said now isn't solid as a rock. That's all. I'll admit that you could be right if you'll extend the same to me.

Its not like I'm trying to debate something as useless as "do we breathe air?"

We're debating something that's contemporary and probably done so formally between two scientists who've dedicated a significant portion of their life to the pursuit.

I'm going to stop responding to this debate on the grounds that its failing to be interesting now. Neither of us really doing much of anything. Shall we just consider the matter at an impasse for the time being?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 20 2004, 04:47 AM

I'll grant that there is a possibility that you are correct. However, for the viewers, it must be said that the evidence does not weigh in your favour. Obviously evidence is not infallible, but we cannot go on evidence that we do not have.

~J

Posted by: KarmaInferno Jul 21 2004, 02:29 PM

All I know is that if you want to have parts of your clothing glow in different colors, go right ahead.

After all, the stars of Splinter Cell and Starcraft: Ghost both have glowing bits and nobody can see them sneaking around.

-karma