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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Running Multipliers
Posted by: derren Jul 22 2004, 09:38 PM
Does anyone have any comments on the running multiplers? I for one think they are a little out compared to real world running times.
For example an average human in shadowrun with a quickness of three (no athletics dice) does 9 metres per 3 seconds therefore does three metres per second and thus will take 33 seconds to run the hundred metres.This seems to me very slow as from experience an "average" person can do the hundred metres in about 15 seconds.
Is there any errata on this subject?
I believe the running modifiers should be at least doubled to make running more realistic.
Posted by: pk323 Jul 22 2004, 09:52 PM
Good question. And while we're on the topic, why do trolls have the same running modifiers as humans?
Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Jul 22 2004, 09:56 PM
trolls dont have long legs, they have very long torsos.
humans are about 1/2 legs, trolls are about 1/3, at 9 feet tall, they have the same length of legs as a 6 foot tall human.
theyre feet, however, are much larger. and you know what big feet mean right... big socks
Posted by: Necrotic Monkey Jul 22 2004, 09:56 PM
Trolls are closer to dwarves as far as their builds go (long arms and torsos, relatively short legs). Couple that with their immense bulk and it's no surprise that they're slow runners for their height.
Posted by: pk323 Jul 22 2004, 10:02 PM
::nods:: That's what I figured but I must have skimmed over it.
Posted by: Necro Tech Jul 22 2004, 11:38 PM
People without athletics don't know how to run. After running track for six years I can tell you that the average for 100 meters is about 17-20 seconds for non runners who are in shape. A very fast highschool girl could run it in 13.9 seconds if memory serves and she was a sprinter. By the rules, no atletics means you can't effectively sprint, only run or that you don't know how to sprint. Yes, there is actually technique to it.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Jul 23 2004, 12:10 AM
well, a 4 in quickness is still on the order of being average, and a quickness of 4 lets you run 100 meters in 25 seconds
lets look at that high school girl. assuming a quickness of 4 and an athletics (running) of 2(4), you will, on average, get a 100 meter sprint time of about 17 seconds, and, if you *really* try (ie, you spend a point of karma pool to reroll failures) you can pretty easily get that down to 14.3 seconds. 14.3, as far as a game that never really deals with increments of time less than 1 second, is functionally the same as 13.9 - making the estimator pretty damn good, all things considered. And thats just considering average rolls... that high school girl can theoretically - assuming all successes on that test - get her time down to 12.5.
Now, lets look at an olympic sprinter. With an 8 in quickness and an 8 in athletics - both represeting world class here... afterall, we're talking olympics - an average 100 meter sprinting time would be 8.33 seconds, and thats without spending any karma. Considering that the current world record is 9.78, I'd say, if anything, the running speeds end up being a bit too *fast* on the upper end. But theyre still not totally out of whack - 1.45 seconds off from reality is, again, really damn good for a rather simple game mechanic.
Posted by: Adarael Jul 23 2004, 12:14 AM
Bear in mind that a Quickness of 8 isn't world class, it's legendary. It's Audie Murphy or Billy the Kid or Zorro. Quickness 6 is world-class.
8 is one of those 'can do astounding, bizzare-ass things wthout thinking about it'.
Posted by: tjn Jul 23 2004, 12:57 AM
Err... I believe yer off a bit there Adarael.
What you described was a rating of 10. 10 is the human maximum for any attribute; this is the legendary point, where normal men and women just can't get to (they don't have the proper edge 
).
6 is just the maximum rating of an unmodified human.
But considering the amount of time and effort olympic performers put into their event, I have no trouble saying that those 20 years of effort modified their base attribute to an 8.
Posted by: BitBasher Jul 23 2004, 01:42 AM
It's 11, not 10, you round up.
Posted by: Method Jul 23 2004, 02:14 AM
The movement modifiers take into account the fact that you are in combat, and have to move tactically (dodging, ducking, crouching, using cover, etc).
Nobody is shooting at you when you run the 100 meters at your local track meet.
Posted by: Diesel Jul 23 2004, 02:52 AM
Depends on where you live.
Posted by: Cain Jul 23 2004, 03:18 AM
Hm, thos numbers work, but they're missing a bit...
Let's give our hypothetical girl a Quickness of 3, Body of 3, and no athletics skill. Without spending any actions, she'll cover the distance in about 33 seconds, or 11 combat turns. However, if she does spend the actions on an athletics test, she'll hit a single success against TN8 about half the time, allowing her to improve her speed on half of those turns. Let's assume that every other turn, she scores one success: her speed then becomes 9, 12, 9, 12, etc... that means she'll cover the 100 M in about 9 combat turns, or 18 seconds.
That seems to jive with the numbers people are bandying about.
Posted by: derren Jul 23 2004, 11:03 AM
Cool thanks for the posts, it's really the athletics skill that makes it work, like one of the posters said there is a skill to running in real life too so it makes sense this changes things majorly in game aswell.
Cheers guys
Derren
Posted by: Cochise Jul 23 2004, 11:11 AM
You must also take into account that SR running multipliers do work with full gear on => Your average all attributes at 3 human will "run" the 100m in 33 seconds even with a load of 15kg in gear and in not necessarily perfect clothing: A blue jeans and normal shoes are most definitely not as well suited as a sporting dress with running shoes when it comes to sprinting down the lane ... He'll even cover the same distance with a rather bulky armor as long as he doesn't use layered armor types ...
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 23 2004, 12:41 PM
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| It's 11, not 10, you round up. |
It's 9, not 10 or 11. 1.5*6=9.
As for the running multipliers question, yeah, you've got a lot of Quickness 6 people who run the hundred meters faster than anyone alive today, but I only consider that a problem if you try playing a game that's heavy on track and field.
~J
Posted by: Ivanhoe Jul 23 2004, 12:48 PM
Once upon a time there was such a thread on the ShadowRN mailling list. IIRC the conclusion was that it was perfectly possible to abuse the rules in that a starting adept character could run at 200+ mph and that an initiate vampire shaman (with the horse totem) could run at Mach 1, using the movement service of a spirit.
As one used to say : Drive ? Nah... Mundanes drive, adepts run !
Posted by: Cochise Jul 23 2004, 12:52 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| It's 9, not 10 or 11. 1.5*6=9. |
Think in terms of "exceptional attribute"
That's still an unaugmented, natural racial maximum for a human ...
Posted by: Austere Emancipator Jul 23 2004, 12:53 PM
Kage: They're talking about the Exceptional Attribute edge. With that, you can get to 11. It's not much of a stretch to consider the fastest people on earth to have a QUI of 11.
[Edit]Dammit, Cochise![/Edit]
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 23 2004, 12:57 PM
It most certainly is a stretch to think that the fastest people on earth are running the hundred meters in just over three seconds, just under five if they're dwarves.
~J
Posted by: toturi Jul 23 2004, 12:57 PM
| QUOTE (Ivanhoe) |
| Once upon a time there was such a thread on the ShadowRN mailling list. IIRC the conclusion was that it was perfectly possible to abuse the rules in that a starting adept character could run at 200+ mph and that an initiate vampire shaman (with the horse totem) could run at Mach 1, using the movement service of a spirit. As one used to say : Drive ? Nah... Mundanes drive, adepts run ! |
That was "once upon a time". What is the theorectical max now?
Posted by: Cochise Jul 23 2004, 01:24 PM
Never tried to get the absolute maximum, but I "suggest" the following pattern:
- Adept of the magician's Way - Totem Horse (or was it Unicorn?), 3 Points on magic ability
- Night One
- SURGE "Satyr Legs" Running Multiplier +1
- Transform to Ghoul geas off the magic loss (Must make sounds like "meeep, meep" while running) .. Running multiplier +1
- Improved Athletics lvl 6
- Initiate with those 18 spell points you have and get the Movement power that shamans of that totem can learn
- Apitude (Athletics) .. make you athletics test against TN 3 for increasing quick
- Max out quick as much as possible ...
Should be enough to get him in regions of about Mach I .. or even higher ... Can't bother to calculate it ...
Posted by: toturi Jul 23 2004, 01:33 PM
| QUOTE (Cochise) |
Never tried to get the absolute maximum, but I "suggest" the following pattern:
Should be enough to get him in regions of about Mach I .. or even higher ... Can't bother to calculate it ... |
I think Exceptional Attribute: Quickness and Attribute Boost would help too.
Posted by: Cochise Jul 23 2004, 01:40 PM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| I think Exceptional Attribute: Quickness and Attribute Boost would help too. |
Exceptional attribute and additional Attribute point: Yes ... The former only in the long run ...
But that's essentially what I meant with maxed out quick ...
Attribute boost ... might work, but the TNs would sooner or later get too high to guarantee longer lastings effects ...
Posted by: toturi Jul 23 2004, 01:58 PM
It is the only Canon method of getting to twice the Racial Max, that I know of. The Exceptional Attribute is there to increase that Max.
Posted by: Cochise Jul 23 2004, 02:04 PM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| It is the only Canon method of getting to twice the Racial Max, that I know of. |
I'm aware of that ... Still the TNs for getting the boost will eventually become too high to kick in on a regular basis
| QUOTE |
| The Exceptional Attribute is there to increase that Max. |
a.k.a. maxed out quick
Posted by: Adarael Jul 24 2004, 12:01 AM
| QUOTE |
| Err... I believe yer off a bit there Adarael. What you described was a rating of 10. 10 is the human maximum for any attribute; this is the legendary point, where normal men and women just can't get to (they don't have the proper edge ). 6 is just the maximum rating of an unmodified human. But considering the amount of time and effort olympic performers put into their event, I have no trouble saying that those 20 years of effort modified their base attribute to an 8. |
Not really, no. While 9 is the absolute maximum attainable under any circumstances, you're thinking ONLY in terms of numbers. I'm thinking just in terms of what is realistic for an olympic runner.
Assume: the minimum age for most starting shadowrunners would be about 18. Otaku kinda break those rules, but whatever. So at 18, the runner has Quickness 6, Body 6 (remember - athletics is tied to body) and Athletics 6. Now, granted, he's got skills beyond this, but these are his main thing.
Now, the average olympian reaches peak performance between 18 and 19, according to http://coaching.usolympicteam.com/coaching/kpub.nsf/v/path, but I think we can push that to 26 or so for runners, just judging by thethose I've looked up.
So? How retarded do we make this guy? Let's try and give him a couple of stats, keeping Athletics and Quickness equal... but first, a word about exceptional attribute and stats over 6 for humans. I don't use Exceptional Attribute too often, because it tends to make certain things a little unbalancing. I assume most people who are really good at their job are just that - they weren't BORN into that job. I'd give truly legendary people exceptional attribute and the karma to take it over 7 or (sometimes, if they're extremely practiced) 8. Why? While it is possible, rules wise, to increase a human's stat past 6, that's where GM caveat comes into it. Bear in mind that 6 IS called a 'limit' for a reason - in several books over several additions, they suggest GMs keep a close eye on people raising stats over that limit, and for good reason. You hit charisma 10, you've got dragon (or near-dragon) charisma. Intelligence 11? Yeah, that's pretty legendary. These aren't stats people should be able to get without an EXTREMELY good reason, such as devoting themselves to that stat and its' skills to the exclusion of others, for DECADES. This is, admittedly, my opinion. That being said....
Quickness/Athletics 7: 35 karma, assuming no exceptional attribute and not raising body to 7.
Quickness/Athletics 8: 75 karma.
Quickness/Athletics 9: 120 karma.
This means, that a guy who doesn't routinely expose himself to the quick-karma building exercises of most shadowrunners (getting shot at, stealing corporate secrets, et cetera) a runner will have to devote between 35 and 120 good karma to his running between the ages of 18 and 26 - that's 8 years. Now, sure, you might say, that's fine. Well, by way of reference, I think there are two problems with this... #1: that's 35-120 good karma he has to spend in addition to raising other skills (college/career skills, mundane things like drive, personal finance, et cetera), and #2 Fastjack has an intelligence of 8 and a computer skill of 10. That's after 35 years of practice with cyberdecks, and who knows how much more of mundane programming. And he is literally the best in the world - though some have argued with me on that score, I think it's pretty set in stone. Assuming his stats translated to a runner, and he achieved all successes, he's still running the 100 meter in 5.55 seconds. Which, equivalently, would be the 'legendary' guy for running.
My problem's not with the rules or people having high stats, it's in assuming all olympic runners have exceptional attribute and the ability to push their skills and stats to truly epic levels.
Posted by: tjn Jul 24 2004, 01:23 AM
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| Not really, no. While 9 is the absolute maximum attainable under any circumstances, |
Except for exceptional attribute, drugs, and cyber. Though cyber isn't really applicable to modern day experiences.
| QUOTE |
| you're thinking ONLY in terms of numbers. |
Actually, no I'm not. I played two years of football at a Division 1 college. So I have a modicum of personal experience in terms of athletics; I also have met olympians and others who have devoted their entire life to athletics and listened to their experiences. That is what I'm basing my opinions on.
| QUOTE |
| I'm thinking just in terms of what is realistic for an olympic runner. |
While I certainly don't begrudge you your opinion, my personal experience with the subject tells me differently.
| QUOTE |
| Assume: the minimum age for most starting shadowrunners would be about 18. Otaku kinda break those rules, but whatever. So at 18, the runner has Quickness 6, Body 6 (remember - athletics is tied to body) and Athletics 6. Now, granted, he's got skills beyond this, but these are his main thing. |
| QUOTE |
| Now, the average olympian reaches peak performance between 18 and 19, according to http://coaching.usolympicteam.com/coaching/kpub.nsf/v/path, but I think we can push that to 26 or so for runners, just judging by thethose I've looked up. |
| QUOTE |
| So? How retarded do we make this guy? Let's try and give him a couple of stats, keeping Athletics and Quickness equal... but first, a word about exceptional attribute and stats over 6 for humans. I don't use Exceptional Attribute too often, because it tends to make certain things a little unbalancing. I assume most people who are really good at their job are just that - they weren't BORN into that job. |
I would have to state your assumption is wrong, at least in so far as relating to physical attributes. Genetics plays a huge role in not only in how easily on trains their bodies, but to what capacity a person can take their bodies to as well. Physically, people are not created equal at all, and some will have huge potential if they have the drive to fufill it.
| QUOTE |
| I'd give truly legendary people exceptional attribute and the karma to take it over 7 or (sometimes, if they're extremely practiced) 8. Why? While it is possible, rules wise, to increase a human's stat past 6, that's where GM caveat comes into it. Bear in mind that 6 IS called a 'limit' for a reason - in several books over several additions, they suggest GMs keep a close eye on people raising stats over that limit, and for good reason. You hit charisma 10, you've got dragon (or near-dragon) charisma. Intelligence 11? Yeah, that's pretty legendary. These aren't stats people should be able to get without an EXTREMELY good reason, such as devoting themselves to that stat and its' skills to the exclusion of others, for DECADES. |
Such as what it takes to make it to the olympics.... Understand that in somce cases of these athletes have been practicing since the age of 4. One has to question wtf is wrong with their parents to drive their kids like that... but it's what it takes to get to that level of competition in most cases.
| QUOTE |
| This is, admittedly, my opinion. That being said.... Quickness/Athletics 7: 35 karma, assuming no exceptional attribute and not raising body to 7. Quickness/Athletics 8: 75 karma. Quickness/Athletics 9: 120 karma. This means, that a guy who doesn't routinely expose himself to the quick-karma building exercises of most shadowrunners (getting shot at, stealing corporate secrets, et cetera) a runner will have to devote between 35 and 120 good karma to his running between the ages of 18 and 26 - that's 8 years. Now, sure, you might say, that's fine. Well, by way of reference, I think there are two problems with this... #1: that's 35-120 good karma he has to spend in addition to raising other skills (college/career skills, mundane things like drive, personal finance, et cetera) |
And sadly, those other skills are often horribly unpracticed in olympic caliber athletes. Practicing for as many hours a day as they do, and for 14 years straight, leaves little room for other pursuits.
| QUOTE |
| and #2 Fastjack has an intelligence of 8 and a computer skill of 10. That's after 35 years of practice with cyberdecks, and who knows how much more of mundane programming. And he is literally the best in the world - though some have argued with me on that score, I think it's pretty set in stone. Assuming his stats translated to a runner, and he achieved all successes, he's still running the 100 meter in 5.55 seconds. Which, equivalently, would be the 'legendary' guy for running. |
Fastjack is a GM fiat, no amount of dice can represent that, but do you have a page reference for his stats? If nothing else I'd like to see in what other ways he's statted.
| QUOTE |
| My problem's not with the rules or people having high stats, it's in assuming all olympic runners have exceptional attribute and the ability to push their skills and stats to truly epic levels. |
There's 6.3 billion people in the world. And only one of those 6.3 billion people that can take the gold medal. If that doesn't illustrate to you the caliber of these people... I'm not quite sure what will.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 24 2004, 01:40 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if there are a bunch of people who could take that medal from the winner who don't compete for some reason. Like, maybe even five or six.
~J
Posted by: Cain Jul 24 2004, 02:59 AM
| QUOTE |
| Say hello to "Roadrunner" ... |
You forgot to add cyberskates and geas it off.
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Jul 24 2004, 10:31 AM
| QUOTE |
| There's 6.3 billion people in the world. And only one of those 6.3 billion people that can take the gold medal. If that doesn't illustrate to you the caliber of these people... I'm not quite sure what will. |
| QUOTE |
| I wouldn't be surprised if there are a bunch of people who could take that medal from the winner who don't compete for some reason. Like, maybe even five or six. |
All Depends on how well the perform on the day, Only one person can have gold, but alot more deserve it.
In SR terms, all depends on how well and when they spent their Karma rerolls. Getting to the finnal due to a "bad performance" or in the final.
Posted by: Cochise Jul 24 2004, 12:02 PM
| QUOTE (Cain) | ||
You forgot to add cyberskates and geas it off. |
I didn't use cyberskates on purpose, since the intention was a running person (Roadrunner being the perfect streetname for someone like that) ... not a skating one
The other thing is that the Movement power is based on Essence. I already gave up 1 point for going Ghoul. Cyberskates would decrease Essence even further for purposes of using the Movement power ...
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