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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Problems with magic

Posted by: SoulKage Oct 3 2004, 08:36 AM

Hi all! I've always loved the Shadowrun universe but I've hit several problems with magic. I'm new to GMing (heck, playing the game) and this is what happened. After getting the melee and ranged rules down I studied magic and explained the rules to my friends. One friend found that if he took certain combinations of sustaining foci and spells, he could become improved invis, +6/6 armor, +4d6 initiative, +X to any stat he wanted, and flying forever...

Needless to say this just broke the game instantly and I fought for 3 hours tying to un-break it and I gave up. I'm hoping I'm missing some rules or something because magic just seems WAY too powerful, like as in you would need about 10 kilos of High explosive compound XI to ensure his death.. Anything short of that just tickles him.

I also have many more questions about Shadowrun and am hoping I can get some links to sites for further clarification on the rules. Thanks all!!

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 3 2004, 08:41 AM

To start with, use Focus Addiction (Magic in the Shadows page 45). This rule is exactly designed for the problem you are observing. With this rule, a magician risks magic loss if he uses too many foci at once. A power focus does NOT increase the Magic Attribute, so it doesn't help you get around the Focus Addiction rule.

Double-check the force and number of successes for his spells that raise attributes.

Lone Star does have magicians on occasional patrol, or on their way to a crime scene, who WILL notice if a magician has powerful magic. It takes but a moment to stop and ask to see the permit for that powerful magic. (All spells with Force higher than 2 require a permit.)

Initiation (in Magic in the Shadows) allows a character to learn 'Masking', which can help a character hide his Foci and active spells. But only as many Force points of these as the magician has in Grades of initiation.

Powerful corporations and powerful people pay for protection against invisible flying magicians. Wards, watcher and spirit patrols, astral magicians, FAB I and II, biofiber, etc.

Active foci can be attacked from astral space by magicians, mana spells, and spirits.

There are places in the barrens where using 100,000 nuyen worth of foci will get you killed for the value of those foci. Have you ever seen an Adept with Astral Perception firing a rifle at an Invisible Magician?

Posted by: Fortune Oct 3 2004, 09:25 AM

QUOTE (SoulKage)

I also have many more questions about Shadowrun and am hoping I can get some links to sites for further clarification on the rules.

This is the site for all your Shadowrun answers. Welcome.

As to your magic problem, I would suggest first and foremost go back through the appropriate books and magic sections at your disposal. Make a magical character yourself, and try to exploit all the different loopholes you find, or that your player has already pointed out. Then look through the book for something that would counter them, or something that makes using those loopholes less desirable.

The solutions don't always have to be magical. For example...

Public opinion: His social TNs should rise using so many obvious magical crap. Real people don't like what they don't understand.

Legal: All Spells/Foci/Spirits/Spell Formulae/etc. (basically anything magical with a rating) of Rating/Force 3 and above are illegal unless a permit is possessed. Most cops are trained to immediately call for backup upon seeing blatant displays of magic, which in the case of any magic is the Lone Star HRT (or equivalent).

Astral: Not only is every active Spell and Focus a glowing entity on the Astral, giving away one's location and or attracting unwanted attention, but Active Spells and Foci cannot pass through Wards, which are becoming more and more common in the paranoid Sixth World. Don't forget that all those trinkets have an Astral signature than can be tracked through certain magical rituals.

Criminal: There are always those who will risk even the greatest perceived threat to gain in either power or material wealth. Such blatant advertisement of high-priced and/or powered magical goodies would certainly attract the wrong attention...usually at the worst possible moment.

I'm sure you can think of others. The best thing to do though, as I said, is to just grind your way through the rules (and flavor text) until you know how to tweak it...and know how to prevent it's being tweaked.

Remember that it is your game, and if you think something is hurting it, you can disallow it. Nothing says that you have to use every rule. Nothing says you can't slowly introduce the various elements of magic as you become more familiar with each kind. The same goes for any element, be that magic, cyber, or gear. Just because it's in the book doesn't mean the players have to have access to it.

I hope at least some of this helps. feel free to ask pretty much anything topic-related here. Just don't expect everyone to agree.

Posted by: tjn Oct 3 2004, 10:52 AM

SoulKage, either you missed something, or the force of the spells are extremely low as the power gamer inside me tells me that it's not possible to gather that much power as a starting character. Somewhere, somehow, there is a glaring weakness if that's a realitively starting character.

Firstly, how did the mage aquire that much karma/spell points to bond so many foci? Also, make sure he is not playing mix and match with his Sustaining Foci; each Sustaining Foci is keyed to a specific spell. Also, Sustaining Foci can only hold up to a force of spell equal to it's own force, make sure you've not missed that.

Secondly, take a look at the force of the spells he's casting, many are limited in some fashion by the force of the spells themselves (Inc Reflex is the only glaring exception that comes to mind). If he has a bunch of low force spells and the complementary low force foci, that's okay, but make sure he understands he shouldn't expect miraculous effects, or even the effects he would have gotten at a force of 6.

As this is an ooc problem, solving it icly isn't the way to go IMO. However if everything is perfectly legit, it may be you aren't used to some of the IC problems that come with being Awakened. Part of the power balance of an Awakened comes from the numerous pitfalls that inhabit their lives (the other part is the huge karma sinks). OurTeam and Fortune supplied a few of them (wards especially are the bane of the Awakened), here's two more ideas.

I want you to keep in mind background counts. Personally, in my Seattle, it is a rare event in which there isn't at least a count of 1. That +1 TN doesn't seem like much, but since it applies to damn near every single magical roll, it adds up. And heaven forbid if there's a higher count; a 3 or 4 (usually reserved for special reasons) can neuter the power of a starting mage.

And if you don't have Threats 2, at least try to find someone else's to read. In addition to having a bunch of cool ideas to steal, they have Imps. Imps are a foci abuser's worst nightmare: they steal control of the focus itself from the mage.

In the end, magic doesn't break the unduly break the game without a cause, and outside of extremely high karma games (hundreds of spent Karma), magic is ultimately balanced. For as many paths to power magic provides, it also provides that many pitfalls.

Posted by: Chasgul III Oct 3 2004, 11:18 AM

Remember that the Increase Atribute spell is actually Attribute specific. That means that you have to learn Increase Intelligence at force 6, then Increase Strength at force 6, and so on - don't let the players get away with telling you that Increase attribute is a general spell that they can learn once and "Presto - I'm Harlequin's long lost elder brother, honest..."

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 3 2004, 01:15 PM

what you SHOULD watch out for is spells that are learned as exclusive or fetished... because technically you can learn them free at force 1 and 2 respectively.

Posted by: Fortune Oct 3 2004, 01:28 PM

QUOTE (Zenmaxer)

what you SHOULD watch out for is spells that are learned as exclusive or fetished... because technically you can learn them free at force 1 and 2 respectively.

Yep, and according to Rob Boyle, that is a totally legal thing to do as long as it isn't taken too far. I tend to agree that 3 or 4 free low-level 'cantrips' can add some flavor to the game. The problem is that there are quite a few spells that are extremely useful at Force 1 or 2.

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 3 2004, 01:40 PM

actually fortune, I've been thinking about that, and I've really come to believe that it's intentional, designed to allow your mage some versatility, without sacrificing overall punch.

Posted by: Fortune Oct 3 2004, 01:53 PM

The only one that really bugs me is Increase Reflexes. If it was based on Force (as it is in my games) it would be fine. I can deal with things like Force 1 Mindlink, Camo, Invisibility, Oxygenate, etc.

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 3 2004, 01:54 PM

actually the one that bothers me is physical camo. that can really cause some havoc...
especially in a sustaining focus built into the handle of your gun....at a legal force 2.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 4 2004, 12:08 AM

Looking at this character:

First of all, foci, as has been stated, have to be deactivated to pass through wards. Now, you could take your foci through a ward if they were powerful enough, but even if you bring the ward down, you have still alerted the mage who created the ward. In other words, you have set off the alarm. Also, remember that active foci can be attacked astrally, and that having more than (Magic x 2) in Force active at once can lead to foci addiction. Remember as well - he needs to spend spell points to bond all of these foci!

Improved invisibility is a resisted spell, meaning that someone who successfully resists the spell can see the invisible person. Secondly, it doesn't affect smell, sound, etc. Thirdly, it is a fairly common spell, and defences will be in place to deal with it. Dual-natured beings can see the character just fine, since invisibility doesn't work against astral sight. Also, guards get suspicious when doors open by themselves, etc.

Armor makes the character glow. It is like creating a neon sign saying "Geek me! I'm a mage!" You might justifiably rule that invisibility cannot mask the glow, since it it a light source. +6/+6 may seem like an awful lot of armor, but automatic fire can be pretty powerful. You don't need any contrived attacks, either - any punk ganger on the street could have a cheap, auto-fire capable, submachine gun. The biggest thing to remember is that the armor spell doesn't create hardened armor, so the best it can do is to lower the effective Power of an attack to 2. So, someone with a 4L holdout pistol could still maim the character if he got good enough rolls.

The initiative boost is not that impressive. +3d6, the highest you can go, only makes you about the same as a street samurai with Wired Reflexes: 2. And most decent sammies will be far above that.

Increase Attribute takes a lot of successes (2 per one point increase), and it uses the base Attribute as a TN - so raising a Willpower that is already 6 any higher will take some decent rolls.

Levitate is a useful spell, but remember that if an enemy mage sees him hovering 100 feet above, then successfully dispelling the spell or taking out the focus will make the character go SPLAT!

One thing to keep in mind about the basic rules is that they are geared towards creating professional criminals, hardened pros who have been doing this for awhile and are about to break into the big time. So starting characters can be tough (although SR combat is also pretty lethal, so they are not invincible by any means). The system that created this character can also be used to create brutally effective street samurai and adepts.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 4 2004, 12:22 AM

That would be an interesting effect of invis+Armor. A glow from no apparent source.

~J

Posted by: toturi Oct 4 2004, 12:34 AM

Imps.

Posted by: Derek Oct 4 2004, 01:07 AM

Or, you can talk to the player in question, explain to him that his use of the rules is causing problems within the game and ask him to kindly not try and abuse the rules to make his character the most powerful 10 times over. If he says no, tell him to not bother showing up for the next game session.

Derek

Posted by: heliocentric Oct 4 2004, 01:47 AM

I had a similar problem a few years ago with one of my players. He had made a bet with someone outside of my game he could make a standard mage better at HtH than an adept.

He won the bet.

I ruled that the sheer amount of mana shooting through his body lit him up like a beacon on the astral, attracting all manner of magical beasties.

It just so happened my antagonists for this campaign were an organized crime syndicate suffering from HMHVV. Hee hee hee...

Posted by: Glyph Oct 4 2004, 04:54 AM

It is always better to talk to the player, first. For one thing, he may not even know there is a "problem", and may be happy to tone down his character if that will make it easier for you. After all, he's (as far as I know) not breaking any rules, or even doing any obnoxious meta-gaming or loophole-finding. He's simply picking a mix of foci to make himself effective in a number of roles.

It's easy enough for a GM arbitrarily kill a PC, but that's being unfair to the player, and is not usually effective at causing the changes you want. It will either make the player leave in disgust, or convince him that his next character needs to be even more munchkin, since the first one obviously wasn't tough enough.

Posted by: Sandoval Smith Oct 4 2004, 05:15 AM

How is he getting those stat boosts so high? In past threads where munchins have claimed to have done those and maxed the success in the downtime, I have scene response that ran the line of 'divide the downtime into 3 second turns and let him roll that many times.'

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 4 2004, 05:44 AM

QUOTE (Glyph)

I don't think this is the problem though. I don't even think they have actual characters made up yet. The issue here as I understand it is they were looking through the rules and realized that magic-users have a much higher potential power than non-mages. And they're completely right too; given infinite Karma an Awakened character *will* be better at, well, everything than a non-Awakened character. It's inevitable, really. They just have more stuff they can get than a sam, plus they can get all the stuff a sam does in addition.

The trick is, noone has infinite Karma. The mage will always be limited by his available karma points, and most of it really guzzles the karma as well. The other issues with magic others have dealt with better than I have, but the things you really want to take notice of are wards (alarm wards in particular are nasty and nifty; they should be everywhere your characters want to go), and astral/dual-natured enemies, like hell-hounds and bound spirits and the like.

Posted by: Fortune Oct 4 2004, 08:45 AM

While talking to the player is pretty much a given, I still believe that the GM should know the system at least as well as his players. Sit down with the player in question and go through the entire magic rules with him. This isn't a bad thing to do with all the players, and something I do each and every time one of my players goes through chargen. It not only familiarizes the GM (and the player, if necessary) with the rules, but it gives the GM an intimate view into the character and his motivations...moreso than what can come across in a written background.

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 4 2004, 02:36 PM

Ultimately I'm with Glyph. A little power is a good thing, not a bad thing. It's no fun to be forced to rob department stores or shake down ramen shops. Just build the resistance to deal with the char.

Posted by: Sandoval Smith Oct 4 2004, 02:42 PM

What kind of resistance could you have to a mage like that, that wouldn't also wipe out the rest of the team? Seriously, I think both the player and the GM (the latter in particular) need to review, well, let's be thorough and say the magic section in the BBB, Compaion, and MitS for good measure. The GM is obviously not prepared to handle what this player is doing, and I think the player, knowing or not, is breaking some important rules about magic use.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 4 2004, 02:44 PM

Astral threats.

~J

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 4 2004, 02:47 PM

actually, you could just use the silly essence kitten from TSS, though it's not canon.
at least the feline would finally see some use.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 4 2004, 03:25 PM

It already had use: being cute and fuzzy.

~J

Posted by: BitBasher Oct 4 2004, 03:47 PM

QUOTE

What kind of resistance could you have to a mage like that,

This is a trick question. Except in a very long term game you can't actually realistically have a mage like that in most games and have it work. That takes a whole pile of karma that was not spent on skills and abilities. Karma that goes down the drain when they go through a ward and roll bad, ect.

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Oct 4 2004, 05:16 PM

QUOTE (SoulKage)

One friend found that if he took certain combinations of sustaining foci and spells, he could become improved invis, +6/6 armor, +4d6 initiative, +X to any stat he wanted, and flying forever... Needless to say this just broke the game instantly and I fought for 3 hours tying to un-break it and I gave up.

So I like for my runners to encounter similarly matched opponents to make it interesting. Throw a few mages at him with similar rated items or throw a few Elementals his way. Make the rules work in your favor. I often put runners in situations where they are uncomfortable or unexpectedly challenged. As mentioned previously, have alot of Lone Star patrols, or unexpected rival Threat Response Teams show up during runs. That always seems to keep the runners on their toes.

QUOTE

I'm hoping I'm missing some rules or something because magic just seems WAY too powerful, like as in you would need about 10 kilos of High explosive compound XI to ensure his death.. Anything short of that just tickles him.

Like I said before, mages and spirits are a fun, unexpected party crasher, or a few mercs wielding Heavy Weapons (Panter Cannons, Light Machine guns, etc.) make for a fun time. My runners are at the point now where all my bad-guys, always burst with automatic weapons to ensure keeping them on their toes. Toss in a Vampire here or there and now you've got a party.

QUOTE

I also have many more questions about Shadowrun and am hoping I can get some links to sites for further clarification on the rules. Thanks all!!

Post'em if you got em.

Posted by: Cain Oct 5 2004, 03:07 AM

Soulkage: I did a bit of number-crunching, and it'd take 16 spell points for your mage to purchase each of those spells at effective levels. That means he needs to spend 32 spell points to have them all bonded into foci at chargen. Considering that he only starts with 25, he'd need to buy 7 spell points, at a cost of 175,000 .

Now, for the foci, he'd need to spend 240,000 to have enough to carry them all. That gives him a grand total of 425,000 , too much for a starting full mage using the priority system. He wouldn't be able to start with all that.

Now, if a player manages to earn all that in game, that's another matter. However, there's no way he can start with all that. I don't think you need to worry too much about focus abuse right off the bat.

Posted by: John Campbell Oct 5 2004, 03:55 AM

QUOTE (Zenmaxer)

actually the one that bothers me is physical camo. that can really cause some havoc...
especially in a sustaining focus built into the handle of your gun....at a legal force 2.

Nitpicking: Getting a Force 2 spell for free requires making it Exclusive, and you can't put Exclusive spells into sustaining foci.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 5 2004, 06:47 AM

QUOTE

However, there's no way he can start with all that. I don't think you need to worry too much about focus abuse right off the bat.

Well he could be an aspected sorcerer, in fact he probably would be considering he's a newer player and would naturally avoid conjuring and astral projection anyway. That gives him 35 spell points and up to 1 million

to start with.

Posted by: Joker9125 Oct 5 2004, 07:55 AM

Post his Character sheet. The Rule Lawyer in me so wants to rip this guys character apart while the metagamer in me wants to give him pointers.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 5 2004, 09:07 AM

I'm not sure there *is* a character sheet. From SoulKage's post I gathered that they were merely discussing theory, and a friend of his noticed that in theory, particularly with just the BBB and no other sourcebooks, mages and magic users are in general are more powerful than non magic-users.

Posted by: Cain Oct 5 2004, 06:22 PM

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)

QUOTE

However, there's no way he can start with all that. I don't think you need to worry too much about focus abuse right off the bat.

to start with.

I considered that, but even so, he'd be overly weak in many areas. That would leave him with 13 maximum spell points for offensive magic, and probably less than that. It all depends on how high he pumps that Imp. Invis spell.

Even if the character managed to pull all this off, he'd be just an expensive one-trick pony, easily handled by any of the tactics mentioned already. And since he can't be a full mage and start with all that, the player would have to be a skilled munchkin to know how to pull off this trick.

Posted by: SoulKage Oct 13 2004, 04:23 AM

Notes: I did not bother with the other parts of character creating since the focus here is magic. This is basically what my friend did on that dreaded day. He stated he will re-roll his stat foci until he gets the amount of successes he desires during his “downtime.” not to mention he’s improved invis and stealthed.. Even with only one spell, he has a large spell pool and willpower pool to pull from. His armor is way too high and thus even if I were to hit him with a full auto rifle, he could easily stage the damage down with his insane body and combat pool. And speaking of combat pool, he can pwn with that assault rifle, hell even his pistol! he’s got super fast initiative and all this just seems to powerful.. Granted some of your ideas are good and I’ll be buying MitS soon so I can be better equipped to deal with this situation. Thanks for all your input guys!

Using the BBB only:

A 1,000,000 Nuyen
B Aspected Magician (sorcerer)
C Attributes 24
D Dwarf
E Skill points 27

Combat Pool = 14
Spell Pool = 8
Reaction = 9
Initiative = 9+4d6

Armor Rating 13/10

Body 3 (2+1) (11) Boosted from foci
Quick 2 (9) “”
Str 4 (2+2) (12) “”
Cha 6 (9) “”
Int 6 (9) “”
Wil 7 (6+1) (11) “”
Essence 6
Magic 6

Knowledge skill points 30
Language 9

Active skills:
Sorcery (6)
Aura Reading (1)
Assault Rifles (6)
Pistols (5)
Launch Weapons (4)
Etiquette (5)

Magic Spells:
Increase Body (1)
Increase Quick (1)
Increase Str (1)
Increase Cha (1)
Increase int (1)
Increase wil (1)
Increase Reflexes +3 (1)
Improved Invis (5)
Stealth (4)
Armor (6)
Powerbolt (6)

Sustaining Foci:
Increase Body (1)
Increase Quick (1)
Increase Str (1)
Increase Cha (1)
Increase int (1)
Increase wil (1)
Increase Reflexes +3 (1)
Improved Invis (5)
Stealth (4)
Armor (6)

Total Spell points between Spells and Foci, 50

Armor:
Secure Jacket 5/3
Secure Vest 2/1

Weapons:
Soviet AK-98:
Tactical sling
EX Explosive Ammo
Smartlink
Shock Pad
Gas-Vent III
5 Extra Mags
3 Offensive mini Grenades
5 Defensive mini Grenades
Ares Viper Silvergun:
EX Explosive Ammo
Smartlink
Gas-Vent III
2 Extra Mags
Gear:
Smart goggles
Concealable holster for AVS
Clothing

Posted by: tjn Oct 13 2004, 05:04 AM

As everyone surmised, there's a slight flaw in his plan: specifically the force of the Increase Attribute spells.

QUOTE (In the spell's description on pg. 194 of the BBB)

Every two successes increase the Attribute by 1, up to the maxiumum of the Force of the spell.

On second hand, slap him silly for declaring pre-rolls. He wants to cast like that, he needs to roll like that; and by extension, deal with the drain. Also slap the character silly with wards, and the other IC problems from lighting up astral space like Liberace.

And an AVS can't take a gas-vent due to it's barrel already taking an integral sound suppressor.

EDIT: Clarity & Stuff

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 13 2004, 06:23 AM

He also risks loss of Magic (Focus Addiction Rules) every Combat Turn where he uses more force points in Foci than twice his rating in Magic.

The limit to attribute rating and the problem of using too many foci were brought up as the first two issues in the first response to your post (5 minutes after your original post). This was 9 days before you posted his character. Perhaps our responses are confusing or unclear? How can we better help you?

Posted by: toturi Oct 13 2004, 06:34 AM

He could fetish limit those Imp Attribute spells, which should give him 1 Force more. But that is it. His Attributes can all be only boosted by 2 maximum. Unless you have a house rule you haven't told us.

Posted by: SoulKage Oct 13 2004, 04:07 PM

Thanks everyone, I think I see now.. the atribute thing was a bit messed up, I didn't see the atribute part in the BBB. And even though he can ligitly have 13/10 armor, he would be quite obvious that hes a mage and could be targeted from both the physical and astral plains. I guess as GM I have to find a way to balance their uber powers with the settings without making it look like I'm being a jerk. thanks so much for your posts!

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 13 2004, 04:25 PM

QUOTE (SoulKage @ Oct 13 2004, 11:07 AM)

The only thing left to mention is the Armor spell. Remember that Armor glows, not just on the astral plane, but on the physical plane as well. This is going to ruin any and all attempts of subtlety, as every sec-related person on the planet should recognize this glow immediately.

As to the rolling in downtime, I'd seriously suggest that you make him actually do the rolls in front of you. An Increase Will (2) spell, for example, requires four 6s from him using his six Sorcery dice. This should take a very long time, even if he adds in all of his Spell pool to the casting, which makes Drain harder. Every time he takes Drain he has to waste a couple of hours recovering or take further modifiers to the casting TN. The fact of being forced to roll most of these spells is a good inherent balancing mechanism.

(Edit): Also note that the armor is not hardened; in order to stage the damage to nothing he's going to have to cancel all of the shooter's successes, *plus* the extras needed to stage the damage to nothing, using only Body dice and combat pool. This is damn hard, and gets harder when the guards are using full-auto or multiple bursts to wear down the mage's CP. It's a common saying around here: "Geek the mage first!" and sec forces know it as well as we do. The Armor spell will just draw fire from everyone in the area.

All in all mages in general are far better served keeping inconspicuous as possible. Invis goes a long way towards helping that, but it's easily invalidated in practice with astral perception, or even simple things like sprinklers and beaded curtains. And don't forget wards and spirit Attack Packs, but I and others have mentioned those already.

Posted by: tjn Oct 13 2004, 04:53 PM

One can have all the armor in the world, but if they don't have the body to help stage down the damage, they're in for a world of hurt in any event.

Plus he gets Combat Pool penalties and Quickness +TNs due to the mundane armor being over his Quickness. And the protection of the second piece of armor is halved, round down. He in fact has a 12/9 while wearing his "Hi, I'm a Mage. Geek me first." sign.

See pg 285 for the specific rules on layering armor and the physical penalties of wearing too much armor.

With his Quick spell up, he looses 2 CP, 3 if he doesn't have it up.

With his Quick spell up, he has a +4 to all quickness and quickness related tests. Without it, it jumps to 5.

And either way, the dude can't walk under his own power due to the movement penalty. {Best scenario is (Q:3 - 4) x3 = he ain't movin'}

EDIT: Just noticed a lack of Levitate. He ain't moving at all. And if he's claiming to be able to fly forever, he's smoking something serious.

Even if he dropped the second piece of armor and always kept the Improved Quick up, he'd be just barely able to waddle around {(3-2)*3}.

The character is an invisable lamp.

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Oct 13 2004, 05:27 PM

So does anyone apply the "layering armor" rules when using the armor spell? I can see where that would help this situation, or does that just apply to physical armor worn?

Posted by: Fortune Oct 13 2004, 05:38 PM

No. The Armor spell doesn't figure in the calculation of either worn armor vs. Quickness, or for the purposes of layering armor.

Posted by: Cain Oct 14 2004, 05:17 AM

Don't forget the activation limit. He can only have a number of foci active equal to his Intelligence. It's on p 190, BBB, under "Activation"; there's no way he can be walking around with 10 active foci on at once.

Posted by: Glyph Oct 14 2004, 05:48 AM

I think clearing up the issue about the Increase Attribute spell takes care of the major issues - no insanely high Body and Combat Pool to stage everything down, so his armor (which is not hardened, remember) dropping a lot (but not all) TN's to 2 won't be enough, by itself, to make him invincible. His initiative drops, too, down to where he is behind the sammies again (or he should be).

I won't give him flak over it, though, since he's learning the rules, just like you. It could have been an honest mistake. I will give him kudos for finding one of the most optimal combinations in the priority system on his first try.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 14 2004, 06:00 AM

Although, anything with the million nuyen is pretty high up there in power by the end. It's one of the reasons sammies start out so powerful, 'cause they have exponentially more resources to start with than others. Of course without it the adept would beat any mundane sammie without even trying, so I suppose it balances.

Posted by: tisoz Nov 5 2004, 01:09 PM

Also, skills are linked to attributes to determine their costs. You use natural attributes for this, not cybered (bio is considered natural) or magically boosted. So He didn't allot enough skill points for his Assault Rifles or Pistols skills.

Posted by: Kyuhan Nov 5 2004, 01:47 PM

The only problem I can see with all this (as was kinda stated above) is springing "new" rules on the guy (i.e. rules you didn't know about before). This leads to bouts of "but we did it this way before, and now you're just changing things to suit you". Some people can get really persnickity when they feel they've done something awesome and someone else comes along and totally deflates it. Personally, I'd just be cautious (and maybe a little slow) on broaching these changes, it can save lots of hurt feelings, bickering, etc.

Posted by: tjn Nov 5 2004, 05:03 PM

I have no sympathy for their feelings if they have no consideration for others.

Demanding that the rules allow them to become so overpowered as to impinge upon their friends' enjoyment of the game usually denotes a fairly selfish attitude.

Respect is a two way street.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Nov 5 2004, 05:46 PM

In this case it doesn't really matter anyway. This isn't a matter of the rules being arbitrarily changed by the GM to the player's detriment, but rather the group not understanding the rules in the first place and making mistakes based on those misinterpretations. Now that most of 'em have been cleared up the game is more balanced and fair to all involved. I really don't see the player complainning when it's explainned that his broken combos are in fact not legal. I rather think he'd be relieved to know that the system isn't *that* easily broken by a newbie.

Posted by: Apathy Nov 5 2004, 06:38 PM

Somebody else probably also mentioned this, but your focus has to be as high as the spell you're trying to fit into it. So to get +2 to your body, you'd have to get the spell at force 2, and get the focus at force 2, and spend the karma bond the focus (2 spell points each), and roll 4 successes with your sorcery+magic pool dice.

Then, as soon as you hit a decent force ward (force6+), the ward will likely destroy the focus, wasting all the karma you spent bonding it in the first place. If the ward doesn't destroy the focus, it'll still probably deactivate the focus (and you're unlikely to be able to re-cast the spell while you're on the run without taking drain). And you've now notified the security mage that you're in the building.

Because your TN for attribute increasing spells is the base attribute, you'll likely get a higher final value if your natural attribute is lower (3), and then get the spell at force 6. If you throw your whole spell pool into the cast, you have a slight chance of getting 12 successes against a TN 3 (raising your body to 9). And since you can't have more points of active foci than twice your Magic, it leaves you stuck with just two of those at most.

If you wanted to pick a couple spells that are actually useful at low force, I'd suggest the following:

levitate (1) [low force means you'll be slow, but can be a huge help getting over fences and stuff],
invisibility (1) [it is a resisted spell, but you can throw so many dice at the spell that your successes will usually outnumber the opposition's],
increase reflexes (1) [IMO a broken spell, gives mostly the same results regardless of force it's cast at],
and increase will (1) [if, like most mages, you max your natural willpower, then your TN's 6 or 7, and you're unlikely to get more than 2 successes anyway].

None of these would survive walking through a ward, or a simple attack from a spirit or watcher pack, but they could be valuable is certain situations.

Posted by: DrJest Nov 5 2004, 07:05 PM

I've been meaning to ask - a number of times I've seen people mention getting a spell "for free". What does that refer to?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 5 2004, 07:09 PM

By taking a spell limitation (Fetish or Exclusive) for the cost of the spell, you can reduce the cost for a Force 1 or Force 2 spell to 0 respectively.

So if you want to learn Improved Initiative 3D6 at Force 1, you can learn it with a Fetish and it'll cost 0 Spell Points/Karma to learn. It's canon but most of the people around here get their panties in a twist about it. Me, I allow magicians to take a handfull of "free cantrips" during character creation (usually using their Essence score as the limit of cantrips they can take).

Sure, technically, you could learn every spell in the book for free that way. But realistically, I don't think any magician would have the time or patience to do so. The reduction is only to the Spell Points/Karma cost, not the cost for the formula, libraries, or time it takes to learn each one.

Posted by: LinaInverse Nov 5 2004, 07:14 PM

My GM Docmortand uses a house rule on creation that says that any spell costs a minimum of 1, which is a good way to put a stop to the "unlimited" spell business. I'm actually easy either way; most spells at Force 1 (especially resisted ones) aren't going to be really going to be game breakers at that lvl.

Posted by: DocMortand Nov 5 2004, 08:05 PM

Actually the nasty variant that I use my house rule for is to prevent people from learning a lot of force 3 spells by doing both fetish AND exclusive reducing them to 0. I got the house rule from my old DM, and it made a little sense to me.

Frankly, as long as I keep the same rules for my NPCs my players don't complain.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 5 2004, 08:15 PM

You can't do that, Doc. You can only take a limitation once for either the cost of the spell or the Force of the spell for purposes of Drain. The only way to have a fetish and an exclusive limitation on a single spell is to put one on the cost and the other on the Drain.

Posted by: DocMortand Nov 5 2004, 08:18 PM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Whoa - never knew that. It hasn't come up in our games (my players are all true roleplayers - they come up with a concept before creating chars) so I haven't had to worry about it. What page is that on, btw?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 5 2004, 08:20 PM

I don't have my book handy, but it's in the Magic chapter in the section under Sorcery that talks about learning spells (ie, Spell Limitations). Out of curiosity, what does being a "true roleplayer" have to do with learning spells with limitations? If anything, it adds to the character's style of magic.

Posted by: DocMortand Nov 5 2004, 08:25 PM

Well, Lina for example learned all her spells without fetishes - I believe she didn't want things jangling in the thief profession. Or somebody might learn all but one spell exclusively because they only cast while meditating...that sort of thing. I'm not saying that roleplayers don't use fetish or exclusive - just that this is the way it turned out in my group's case.

Posted by: LinaInverse Nov 5 2004, 08:32 PM

One, I couldn't afford fetishes. Two, I (and this is a personal bias) dislike having specific "limits" to my chars magic, even if it does cost me slightly in other areas. And yes, as a thief, I envisioned my char more as someone who can operate with minimal distractions and motions.

Also, as it turns out, my shaman has sort of evolved into our group's "support" mage, which wouldn't have been possible if I had taken Exclusive on my spells. By herself, she isn't worth diddly in combat, but she helps the rest of the party function a little better and heals their wounds afterwards.

Posted by: Lantzer Nov 5 2004, 09:54 PM

One thing which doesn't really limit the character in question, but is something to keep in mind is the use of sustaining foci on spells that require control to use.

One interpretation: If the spell doesn't require active control (like armor) then a sustaining focus handles it just fine. If the spell does require active control (like levitate) you can't control it if you aren't sustaining it. The spell would retain whatever settings you included when you cast it into the focus. So you could hover a foot above the ground, if you wanted, but your freinds will have to tow you around like a balloon. (It's still a nice way to drag an unconcious troll out of a run gone bad - It's not like he'll be hurt too much when he bangs off of walls and things. Just remember he still has mass.)

Another interpretation: Focus sustained spells are controlled by the caster actively, even though he isn't taking any distraction modifiers.

Another interpretation: Focus sustained spells are controlled by the wearer actively. (Subtle difference from the previous.)

My favorite is option one. It cuts down on folks who think they are superman, without quite so much screaming and bloodshed. It also makes more sense to me. The last one is the least common variety - there's a reason Dunkie put up a reward for the first magic item controllable by a mundane - they don't exist yet.

Focus junkies are luckily rare in my games - but when I see them, I always miss the 'grounding' rules from 2nd Ed.

Posted by: Cain Nov 6 2004, 03:39 AM

QUOTE

Oh, come on now! I can see the exclusive limitation being a perfect fit on a nasty elemental manipulation-- the kind that requires a long chant in Japanese, followed by "DRAGU SLAVE!"

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Nov 6 2004, 03:41 AM

Yeah, it's too bad you can't use other Geasea like Incantation to lower the costs of learning/casting a spell. That would rule.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 6 2004, 03:47 AM

Enter house rules...

Replace the Fetish limitation with a Geas limitation and transform Fetishes into Expendable Fetishes (-2 modifier, just like Exclusive) with costs just as they're listed in SR3 and MitS, albeit they come in bundles of 10 like ammo. Now you have a ton of options and game balance is preserved just fine (especially since we've been using it in our games for years).

Note that Resuable Fetishes are replaced with the Talisman geas. We also introduced a new Geas called the Grimoire geas which requires you to read from the spell formula (for spells) or a hermetic library (for magical abilities not linked to a formula, and even if a non-hermetic) in order to work your magic. If you belong to a school of magic, they have to be from that school.

Posted by: Clyde Nov 6 2004, 05:58 AM

Cool idea, Funkenstein. I don't think I'll let my current crop of players anywhere near it, though. . . They tend to try to create the hardest character possible. I'm in the process of trying to put a stop to it through the use of automatic firearms, however.

And you forgot one: sacrifice

Posted by: Fortune Nov 6 2004, 06:00 AM

He didn't forget it ... Sacrifice is a Metamagic.