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Posted by: Casper Oct 5 2004, 10:55 PM

Well I just picked it up about an hour ago. I havn't been able to read anything out of it yet. But I will see what i can put together in a few hours after I get some other things out of the way.

How about anyone else? Find it yet?

And can we get a forum for it.

Zach

Posted by: JongWK Oct 5 2004, 11:43 PM

Posted by: Bane Oct 6 2004, 01:21 AM

Expect a SOTA:2064 forum when your address bar no longer says "forums-temp.dumpshock.com"

Posted by: Siege Oct 6 2004, 01:25 AM

Some long overdue spook gear - although I think the briefcase rocket was a tad much.

The adept powers range from absolutely rocking to downright scary. So help me, I'm gonna make an adept with a -2 delusion: Batman.

A couple of new flaws, including the much bandied "Character Dossier" which isn't quite as bad as a "Police Record", but still beefy. Also "Incomplete Deprogramming" for all you Alias junkies.

Which leads me to the aliaschips - finally, p-fix chips have numbers and stuff. Let the fun begin. Although the number support is a little weak, it's more than has been printed before.

And you thought mages were nervous before - "magic cameras." The line that made me cringe - "captures astral signatures."

-Siege

Posted by: Tanka Oct 6 2004, 01:34 AM

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 6 2004, 01:40 AM

Posted by: Tanka Oct 6 2004, 01:44 AM

Possibly, but it seems likely that it would need to be able to make the disctinction between "person" and "object," as some objects have auras or aura-equivalents. (Mainly foci, manifested spirits, et cetera.)

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 6 2004, 01:47 AM

I would imagine it is a layer of dual natured cells, like an optic nerve, that simply translates astral impressions into some kind of photo-chemical reaction. It may even take astral perception to see what the 'image' looks like or to 'feel' the impressions.

Posted by: Edward Oct 6 2004, 01:51 AM

I can conserve of several possible ways to build a camera that could detect astral objects.

The easiest would involve some form of astral detecting physically reactive compound or organism connected to a detector. I believe there was a fluresnt moss that did this.

A traditional camera with awakened film (ether traditional film roll or hooked to electric receptors for digital image) would be of limited utility without some form of awakened lenses.

Or they could find or create an awakened critter that could have a transducer installed and be trained to transfer what it sees threw the transducer (meaning that you get what it thinks it sees not what it is actually seeing). Cut away the unnecessary portions and put it in an elegant box.

Edward

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 6 2004, 02:02 AM

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 6 2004, 02:07 AM

A second use for the Astral Window spell, hooray!

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 6 2004, 02:13 AM

Umm... I dont think there is any canon indication that either fiberoptics nor binoculars have any effect on Astral perception. They both can generate physical LOS, but I do not believe it is mentioned anywhere that you can astrally percieve through a fiberoptic cable or binoculars (dont have books, cant check immediately, will do so when i get home unless someone else does first).

Posted by: mfb Oct 6 2004, 02:25 AM

i went round and round about that with some other players, recently. i contended that since the astral senses section of SR3 say that you have your normal sense of sight, things like optical magnification should work just fine. they disagreed, saying that light doesn't even exist on the astral plane. i dunno.

Posted by: Wireknight Oct 6 2004, 02:26 AM

Okay, so, care to give a list of the adept powers/metamagics? I'm going to pick up the book as soon as it's available here(where is "there" that you acquired it, anyhow), but I'm curious as to what's been done for(or to) adepts, as I play quite a few.

Posted by: Tanka Oct 6 2004, 02:27 AM

Light is created from living things, so it does exist. (On the astral, that is.)

IIRC, anything you pay Essence for works properly with Astral Perception. (Not Projection, as you are no longer "home.")

Anything that is natural magnification works as well (so no electronic zooms for you magical snipers).

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 6 2004, 02:37 AM

Posted by: Bane Oct 6 2004, 02:38 AM

Yes, I believe the book says that the astral plan is lit by the glow of auras and such, so you could argue that that light can be magnified.

I think FAB-I is the one that dies when an astral form passes through it and glows under an ultraviolet light. I don't think it's too big a stretch to extend a similar principle to film.

Posted by: SilverWolf_assassin Oct 6 2004, 02:45 AM

Magic Camera's eh?
Start the damage control team off with a good ritual tracking.
Sounds like a regular Witch-Hunt.

As far as I can tell fiber optics by virtue of their lack of electronic reliance allow light refractions to create a line of sight for casting purposes (with modifiers). It is safe to say that with "magic camera's" in place that astral light (auras and such) operates in the same way as physical light.

With that line of logic in place I say, "Bring in the astral wood pyre and the fire elementals! We are having ourselves a BBQ."

Lep, illusionist extraordinaire
“Welcome to the fun house”

Posted by: mfb Oct 6 2004, 02:45 AM

farlander, your proposal that the output generated by auras and interpreted as 'light' isn't actually light isn't supported by the books.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 6 2004, 02:59 AM

I dont even know how to begin to respond to that statement, mfb. That it isnt self evident to you baffles me.

However, while I do a little bit of research to back up my claim definitively, I ask that you provide a canon quote that indicates, unambiguously, that astral "light" is the same as physical light.

Posted by: FlakJacket Oct 6 2004, 03:00 AM

Sod the debate, I want adept powers! Gimme!

Posted by: mfb Oct 6 2004, 03:13 AM

bah. i do have a page number--first sentence under the Astral Senses section of SR3, page 173, where it says that your astral form has the normal senses of sight and hearing (the normal sense of sight involves the manipulation and measurement of light; anything else isn't normal). and, i'd like to point out that every passage but one talks about light as if it works the same on the astral as it does in the physical (for instance, on page 82 of MitS, under Astral Visibility, it states that the light level of the physical plane has no effect on astral visibility because of the light provided by the auras of the Earth and other living beings).

however, on page 104 of SOTA:63, under the Prometheus Fiberoptic Observation Network section (which begins on pg 103) it states in no uncertain terms that astral perception cannot be used through fiberoptics. fie, i am defeated. i'll get you next time, Gadget!

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 6 2004, 03:19 AM

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 6 2004, 03:22 AM

I notice that you have admitted defeat, and SOTA63 was the next book I was going to check for exactly that device - but I'll go ahead and post the quotes I accumulated from SR3 so the time it took to assemble them wasnt entirely wasted.

A slew of quotes that indicate that astral "light" is not analogous to physical light:

"Astral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way; it is a psychic sense." SR3 171

"blind magicians can see perfectly well on the astral." SR3 173

"physical light level does not affect visual perception on the astral." SR3 173

"Written information and symbols carry their emotional intent rather than their informational intent... you could scan a sheet of paper and get feelings of love and longing from it, but you can't read it to see that it's a love letter." SR3 173 [since when does light reflect off of emotional intent???]

"All astral forms have the ability to manifest, to make themselves visible and audible to beings in the physical world through an act of will. The astral form appears as a ghostly image to all viewers on the physical plane.... A manifestation is entirely psychic. Machines cannot percieve it in any way; cameras do not see it, microphones do not hear it, and so forth. For characters with cybereyes, the image is in their minds, so they can see the manifestation despite their cyber." [emphases mine. if the astral form is actually producing real light, why cant machines see it? why is it described as being in the viewers' minds? why are they using the terms "image," "visible" and "audible" to describe something that is neither really actual light or sound?]

But yeah... as long as I have Penny and her trusty dog Brain over here to help me out of these tricky situations, I will always triumph!

Posted by: SilverWolf_assassin Oct 6 2004, 03:43 AM

I am to understand that the Magic Camera, or at least the idea of it functioning as a normal camera, is contrary to actual game mechanics. Either it works on a completely different function then I imagine it or perhaps this explains it.

Page 19 of Harlequins Back
"Yes, this does mean that a character's world view shapes how magic works for him in the Shadowrun Universe."

Those crazy scientists.

Hany, Pirate of the mega-corporate waters.
"Giving the Middle East a bad name."

Posted by: Edward Oct 6 2004, 04:05 AM

Where dose it say fiberoptics affect LOS.

I was farley shore mirrors don’t and they work on the same principals as fibre optics.

Binoculars will extend LOS if thay are purely optical (I believe this is listed in MM under eyewear optimag and in SR3 street gear surveillance equipment binoculars. But I don’t have my books with me) so maybe a glass lens would work.

I can see a large range of experiments involving astral perception and prisms of various materials maybe mirrors of metal radicals or even oricalcom. Unfortunately I don’t have astral perception.

Edward

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 6 2004, 04:29 AM

Edward, do you have SOTA63?

The prometheus system mentioned by mfb allows a mage sitting in an enclosed room and looking through a fiberoptic lead to cast spells at hapless runners. Anything that involves purely optical manipulation of light (no digitization or magic) can provide physical LOS.

Posted by: mfb Oct 6 2004, 05:51 AM

also, SR3 page 181 states explicitly that optical lenses, mirrors, and fiber optics can enhance LOS. of course, it also goes on to say that cybernetic vision enhancements can as well, since they've been paid for with essence, which means that optical mag cyber is pretty much useless.

Posted by: JongWK Oct 6 2004, 12:47 PM

Posted by: Nikoli Oct 6 2004, 01:07 PM

What about Kirlian Photography? Though dismissed in the real world, it could be seen as a method for aural photography in SR

Posted by: Edward Oct 6 2004, 01:18 PM

Fore some reason I believed a mirror dose not enhance LOS. Apparently I was wrong.

I do not own SOTA 2063 but Kremlin KOA dose and I have looked threw it a few times. I will have to look up that item when I am back in town.

It is interesting that somebody said the Prometheus system explicitly prevents astral perception so LOS is not tied to astral perception and aura camera would not necessarily work with a simple glass lenses.

It is strange that the electrical mag cyber wear specifically states it is not good to a mage inspite of the fact that SR3 says anything payed for with essence works. As the image magnification cyber wear came out after SR3 I would take the later reference as being an exception.

Kirlian Photography could be n interesting method. I have seen the results but I don’t know how they create them.

Edward

Posted by: Nikoli Oct 6 2004, 01:49 PM

The film is sanwiched between two thin plates and a low current is passed through. Kirlian, the Russion that discovered this got a nasty burn to his hand the first time because he didn't know just how little voltage was necessary.

Posted by: Botch Oct 6 2004, 02:28 PM

The magic camera operation is simple.

Open the battery compartment and you will find a little imp with a paintbrush and easel. Look behind the chip slot and you'll find a tiny scanner to digitise the image.

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 6 2004, 03:06 PM

The Kirlian method (one of the methods) is exactly what is being talked about in SOTA64 - just as "ghost hunters" can capture strange images, presumably ghosts or spirits, using cameras that have natural optics and old fashioned film, it can be postulated that these were early successes in photographing astral entities...

not to worry too much...it requires special cameras (such as daguerreotype with silver plates) and long exposure times...an astral mage *should* be long gone by then...

Posted by: Vera53 Oct 6 2004, 03:22 PM

I am glad that they are making reference to something more real such as the Kirlian camera than silly imps with paintbrushes . In an awakened world Kirlian photography would have more value and acceptance than it does today in our boring mundane world. I am surprised that it took 50+ years of the awakening to develop useful application of such technology.

Can't wait to buy the book and read it. I hope my Local store has it in already.

Veracusse

Posted by: RangerJoe Oct 6 2004, 03:58 PM

Posted by: Nomad Oct 6 2004, 04:17 PM

Since my FLGS doesn't yet have this in, I'd like to know about the spy gadetry.....what's new and exciting to torture my players with?

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 6 2004, 04:22 PM

Posted by: Nomad Oct 6 2004, 04:39 PM

Here is my take on the magic camera arguement. The "lens" is a compound structure of two basic parts. The out portion is two thin sheets of transparent plastic, with a uni-direction coating (one-way mirror on the outmost one) which encase an awakened bio-lumenescent structure - (think along the lines of FAB). The light projected from this is then absorbed by hypersensitive reciever (similar to what is used in today's satellite, with the ability to divide up the spectrum into very minute wavelength differentiation). The resulting image is a "representation" of the astral plane without being truly astral in nature. Of course, this was developed without reading the book yet.

Posted by: mfb Oct 6 2004, 04:52 PM

hobgoblin, that's a sensible argument, but it's weakened by the fact that there's nothing in the description of ultrasound cybernetic enhancements that keeps a mage from using that. given the extensive discussion of how magic interacts with ultrasound vision in that description, you'd think it'd have been mentioned if spellcasting and ultrasound cybernetic vision were incompatible. given that the data provided by ultrasonic vision doesn't even start out as light, it seems silly to me that electronic mag doesn't work.

Posted by: TheDude Oct 6 2004, 05:17 PM

It appears that the only thing of importance out of the whole book is the camera .

Posted by: mfb Oct 6 2004, 05:19 PM

i wouldn't say that. i want those new adept powers and metamagics.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 6 2004, 09:45 PM

mfb, ultrasound isnt a hole. the point is that for the input to be useful for magic it have to be raw, unprosessed in any way. and ultrasound reciver that just acts on the sound in and dont try to interpet it before its feed to the visual system of the brain is just as useful as a raw image based on light. a digital zoom will most likely try to interpet what is lines and what is noise before passing the image on to the visual cortex of the brain.

ie, stronger sounds become stronger signals so in many ways ultrasound dont enable you to see shapes pr see but allow you to see brighter and darker spots of echo (and sounds weaken as they travel so therefor you can judge distance). and based on that general info you can make guesswork as to what shapes a thing have (or with high enough resolution you can in fact see the general outline of a object as a bright "aura"). basicly there must not be a chip or anything that tryes to interpet the image before its passed on to the magican.

a closed circuit camera on the other hand interpet the data into new data that the tv at the other end can use to rebuild a similar image on the screen.

they have in fact done replacement surgery based on passive chips placed inside the patients eye to replace the damaged biological "sensors" in there. and they are starting to develop lense replacements for patients with a common eye problem among older people (dont recall what its called in english). sooner or later one can replace the whole eye and even cure blindness as long as the blindness comes from damage to the eye itself and not the brain.

then its just a matter of patching this so that instead of useing visible light as the input its ultraviolet, infrared or ultrasound that is used to stimulate the nerves directly.

hmm, i wonder, could a flashbang give a ultrasound user the effect of "glare"?

Posted by: mfb Oct 6 2004, 10:00 PM

dude, it converts sound into sight. there is no image, before the chips in the ultrasonic cyber do their thing. that's a whole lot of processing. you can't cast spells on things you can hear but not see--unless you have ultrasound vision cyberware.

Posted by: Ecclesiastes Oct 6 2004, 10:12 PM

Posted by: mfb Oct 6 2004, 10:55 PM

nah, this is only peripherally related to the camera. if we started a thread for the camera, we'd just derail that one instead of this one!

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 6 2004, 11:03 PM

seconded, another thread for this please. dunnae mean to be a pain in the bum...
also I can think of PLENTY of ways to run a magical camera, and I'm sure there's a canon explanation. What you guys should remember is that what the canon says, goes.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 6 2004, 11:05 PM

Posted by: Req Oct 6 2004, 11:06 PM

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 6 2004, 11:12 PM

:: laughs :: touche, Req, and yeah I agree with you and Kanada. However for the purposes of discussing whether or not something works within the universe, based purely off of rules and fluff interpretations, if it's in the canon, it works. If you want to house rule it out of existence ::grins :: then shoot that rule till it's dead, but don't bother to point to spots in the canon that support you, because it's not relevant. Okay I'll stfu now.

Posted by: Siege Oct 7 2004, 12:32 AM

Since nobody else has posted, I'll do a quick skim:

And sorry, I'm not debating the merits of the mage camera, I am simply noting it's presence in the book.

Aid spell
Animal Empathy
Commanding Voice
Cool Resolve (which shouldn't have such a cool name, frag it )
Deep Rooting
Eidetic Sense Memory
Elemental Strike
Empathic Healing (sorry, samurai are still screwed - no 'get out of wound free' card)
Empathic Reading
Enhanced Balance
Enthralling Performance
Facial Sculpt
Gliding (No, not flying - damnit. Think running with an attitude. Chiun.)
Improved ability expansion (knowledge skills, social skills, B/R skills, Vehicle skills)
Inertia Strike
Iron Gut
Iron Lungs
Kinesics
Linguistics
Living Focus
Melanin Control
Motion Sense
Multi-tasking (my GM coughed up a lung when I read this one)
Nimble Fingers
Pain Relief
Penetrating Strike
Resilience
Side Step
Sustenance
Three Dimensional Memory
Voice Control
Wall Running

Posted by: FlakJacket Oct 7 2004, 12:46 AM

Just to be an ungrateful bastard, any chance of adding a quick explanation of what the powers are/do? Some of them are fairly obvious, some I can take a guess at but others less so.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 7 2004, 12:50 AM

I would think not at this point. I think we can wait until they're all loaded into the NSRCG in a few weeks.

Posted by: mfb Oct 7 2004, 12:50 AM

these sound fun.

Posted by: Siege Oct 7 2004, 01:03 AM

I wouldn't mind, but I think that's treading a little close on "Incoming! Angry author(s) inbound!"

Most of the powers are self-explanatory - just because I am a surly bastard.

-Siege

Edit: Although the "Aid Spell" will turn adepts into a mage's best friend.

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 7 2004, 01:33 AM

Okay, this rocks, I'm definately snagging this book, especially as adepts are my fave chars.

Posted by: SilverWolf_assassin Oct 7 2004, 02:08 AM

What is this nasty rumor I heard about social adepts. .??

Smokes, a guy. . so cyberware, no skills higher the 4
"When the going gets tough, I like to smoke the whole pack at once."

Posted by: Siege Oct 7 2004, 02:12 AM

A more general note about adepts and Paths - a number of Paths are mentioned, but game mechanics and adepts behind these Paths are a tad lacking.

Is this a deliberate omission?

For example, the "Path of the Invisible" gives vague descriptions, but there isn't a thorough mechanical evaluation of the pros and cons of these roughly-sketched out Paths.

And my roomie noted the book is a little light on solid mechanics and instead focuses more on fluff, which isn't necessarily bad - but more numbers would be useful to balance the fluff.

-Siege

Posted by: Siege Oct 7 2004, 02:15 AM

Adepts now have options for impacting things other than massive sneakiness or walking quisinarts o death.

They can buy IA: Social skills at a steepish cost and certain adept powers are now geared towards human interaction.

-Siege

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 7 2004, 02:16 AM

Posted by: mfb Oct 7 2004, 02:56 AM

infusion, hahaha, infusion focus, hahahaha, hahahaHAHAHAHA, HAHAHHAHAHA! I HAVE THE POWER OF GREYSKULL!

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 7 2004, 03:03 AM

dont you mean that, by the power of greyskull, you have the power?

Posted by: mfb Oct 7 2004, 03:22 AM

i will pretend for a moment that i am not too mad with power to concern myself with your petty mortal concerns, mortal, and answer your question. in a word: no, my utterance was correct. i have the power of greyskull. it is in my pocket, and i call it George.

Posted by: Fortune Oct 7 2004, 04:14 AM

Infusion is pretty bad-ass, especially if you throw in a couple of Infusion Foci.

On the subject of Foci, the Adept Focus is cool, but it might open a whole can of worms in regards to magic loss. Hmmm...

I dislike the whole idea of Improved Ability: Social Skills! I can see a case being made for some of the individual skills, but not as a blanket rule.

Multi-tasking...Mmmm, munchie goodness!

I can't believe that nobody has mentioned Living Focus?!?

I'm not too thrilled about Penetrating Strike, but it costs a lot.

Side Step...hello Dodge Pool.

If someone combined a few (or even not-so-few) of the more social powers and abilities with a couple of the social edges it could result in a very scary and potentially unbalancing character.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 7 2004, 04:16 AM

Posted by: mfb Oct 7 2004, 04:25 AM

whoops, you're right. missed that sentence. and, yeah, that's the crux of the whole argument--"it's been paid for with essence, so it interacts with magic" seems to only be true if the effect in question is unwanted by the person with the cyber.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 7 2004, 04:43 AM

No, it doesnt actually invalidate the point about it being unprocessed. ultrasound is layered over normal vision, so you are still getting unaugmented visual LOS in all cases except those of full darkness and invisibility - circumstances under which, as you mention, ultrasonic vision does not grant LOS. SO the argument against digital manipulation still holds strongly.

Put another way - lets say youre holding up a little screen displaying a digital image of a person who is standing in front of you. You see both the digital image and the person standing there. Simply seeing the digital image does not negate your existing LOS to the target... but if the target were in a different room and you ONLY had the digital image, that image could not provide LOS to the target.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 7 2004, 04:55 AM

it invalidates the point about it being unprosessed by the very fact that the text lists a prosessor that turns the echo into visual images.

and one small problem with your post is that the same text says that its what thermographics allso does (put stuff on top of the normal vision). so does that mean i cant use thermographics to target someone with magic in complete darkness? or can trolls and dwarfs (that have it naturaly) do so but not others that have to get by cyberware?

ok so it can be brushed to the side by saying that the ultrasound stuff was someone that had not fully read up on thermographics or that thermographics is still a nonprosessed effect but gets overlayed by the fact that its plugged into the same optical nerves that normal vision goes into (it just uses passive sensors that react to heat, not normal light).

Posted by: Edward Oct 7 2004, 04:55 AM

hobgoblin. Thankyou. I new there was a point in MM that suggested that untrasound vision was no good to mages. I had considered a teem of runners all with ultrasound vision (eyes, goggles or scopes) firing of ir smoke grenades like nobody’s business but I ad considered it would have to be a no spell caster team and was beginning to think I had it wrong.

This tells me that US will not ever grant LOS but will not interfere with LOS achieved with a different vision system.

I want back with my books. Well we there tomorrow.

My take on the “if you payed essence it works with magic” is that it only applies to things that can be natural. Speed, attributes, hearing sound and seeing with light and IR are all cybernetic enhancements of natural things. Ultrasound vision is not an expansion of a natural sense it is an entirely new sense that the brain has no natural way to process so the technology overlays it on the visual sensors.

If you where to implement it in a way more closely aligned to a bat’s sonar (a procedure that would probably require cultured biowear to give the brain the ability to proses object locations threw the hearing centres of the brain) you might be able to use it to target spells.

Witch brings up an interesting point, can you shape change into a bat and use its sonar to target spells, do you even get its sonar.

Edward

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 7 2004, 04:57 AM

ok, now this is getting messy to say the least. and it all started by a comment about a camera being able to see the astral

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 7 2004, 05:11 AM

Posted by: SilverWolf_assassin Oct 7 2004, 05:17 AM

So in conclusion,
State of the Art 2064 is like crack.
It drives everyone crazy and if you don't have it then you can't possibly understand.
And in some states it will be outlawed.
Excellent work!!

--------------------------------
TheBlackDwarf, Decker
"Fear me Renraku. . . I am PAIN"

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 7 2004, 05:38 AM

well, two more books to my must buy list i guess. sota64 and mrjlbb. gah...

Posted by: Fortune Oct 7 2004, 05:58 AM

Posted by: Edward Oct 7 2004, 08:38 AM

Posted by: Canid13 Oct 7 2004, 09:53 AM

I've not read it my self per se, but one of my players has his and we talked about it. The null suit is said to "make the wearer immune to thermograpic vision" but only applies a +2. This seems kinda weird but I suppose it's suggesting that the thermo is integrated with other vision modes.

And for the canon explaination of the astral camera, the text says that it works using silvered plates like in the olden days. Apparently, the old technique picked up astral images back then but no-one knew them to be astral images. It's definately not real time either, it's more a forensic thing.

One thing about the culture shock section - what are the sports scores?!?! It mentioned sports, but doesn't say who won which championship. I thought that info in SOTA 63 was a nice inclusion and both I and my player are a little miffed it hasn't been included in this one.

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 7 2004, 10:21 AM

why would you EVER use the null suit when you can just use thermal dampening?

Posted by: Canid13 Oct 7 2004, 11:41 AM

How does a character use thermal dampening???

Also, the null suit protects you against "most motion detectors".

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 7 2004, 01:18 PM

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 7 2004, 01:44 PM

Posted by: TheDude Oct 7 2004, 05:08 PM

Posted by: mfb Oct 7 2004, 05:16 PM

i don't really like the idea of mechanically-defined paths, at least as-written. as it stands, they just saddle adepts with one more hurdle to overcome; luckily, the paths don't list powers, so you can make an "invisible path" adept with six points of IA: Heavy Weapons, if that fits your character concept. now, if you wanted to list paths that have 2pp worth of 'related' powers and 2pp of 'unrelated' (+/-25% cost, respectively), i'd be more amenable to the concept.

Posted by: TheDude Oct 7 2004, 06:13 PM

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 7 2004, 08:26 PM

Posted by: Ecclesiastes Oct 7 2004, 09:01 PM

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 7 2004, 09:12 PM

It is my understanding that Synner and the rest of the adept crew are compiling those for inclusion on the SR website at some point in the not so distant future, but I'm not 100% sure about that plan or the timing of same. I do know that it was pretty thoroughly discussed, though, since there was a lot of stuff that a lot of us hated to see go by the wayside.

Posted by: Ecclesiastes Oct 7 2004, 09:15 PM

Awesome...

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 7 2004, 09:27 PM

applying rules to ways are silly as a way is not similar to a difference between a shaman and a hermetic. a way is just a theme, and the ways listed are the most usual themes you will run into. a person locked in his way so firmly that he cant see when his way hinders his development he is brittle like a block of concrete rather then flexible like a banch. a brick wall may stop you but will take damage in the impact. a branch will flex and come right back at you

a way is not a cage, its a map

Posted by: Req Oct 7 2004, 09:31 PM

Posted by: SimpleRunner Oct 7 2004, 09:32 PM

As a note on the "Aid Spell" Psyad ability. I don't think that power should be allowed unless the Psyad has the ability to see Astral. It may be stated in the book but then I don't have it with me at the moment.

The other ability in question is the "Penetrating Blow" I can see this as costing to low for what it can do. Can we say free called shot ability that no test is needed for? With the ability listed the way it is and what powers it can't be combined with fails to address how it would affect drones, vehicles, barriers etc... if it is able to bypass armor and such.

I will check this again when I get home and have the book infront of me.

Posted by: Siege Oct 7 2004, 09:36 PM

Ways
If it's just designed to be role-playing fluff, that's fine. But they get mentioned a lot in canon material and I was curious to know if they had any relevant impact on the mechanics behind the fluff or not.

Fortune:
IA: Social Skills: I read this as per specific social skill and not "all social skills possible". Much like the description of IA: Firearms - you can buy IA: Handgun, but not IA: All things Bullet-laden.

Which, to my mind, makes the price a little steep, but not impossible to live with.

Penetrating strike is like icing on the cake - if you can kill people with your bare hands already, PS will nudge the odds in your favor but not so much so it'll make a massive difference. My GM argued the price was too low, but then he's used to the Troll Adept, more commonly known as the "Purple People Eater."

Social Unbalancing:
Combine an edge like: "Good Rep" or even "Knack: Ettiquete" with the enhanced dice or Kinestics (sp) and you've got an adept with some seriously modified TNs, particularly if he's a gear acquisitions specialist.

The flip side is - he'll still get owned in combat if he spends all his points on things social. Unfortunately, NPCs don't have the same worries when the GM is making them.

Mage Support
It used to be the Troll and the mage playing choo-choo train. Now it's gonna be the Troll, the Mage and the mage-battery Adept.

-Siege

Edit: If anyone rolls a Social Adept into a game, the GM had best make a cheat-sheet of all the social interaction mods to keep the player in check. Using straight numbers, a good face adept could have a fair shot at talking his way into acquiring military-grade hardened armor and making the Fixer pay Faceman to take it off his hands.

Ok, that's a little extreme, but future GMs will have to keep a sharp eye on what the face adepts are doing and be prepared to say "no" even if the rules might suggest otherwise.

I refer you to the earlier thread regarding concerns of adepts buying aircraft carriers...at a discount.

Edit 2: SimpleRunner - Astral Perception is not required for the Aid Spell power, although arguments could be made either way.

And knowing some of the players in your crew, it wouldn't be a bad requirement to have in place.

Posted by: Siege Oct 7 2004, 09:42 PM

As for the concern about "penetrating blow" rendering called shots obsolete - I don't see that as a major concern because:

• It only applies to melee attacks and possibly only to bare-hand attacks, but I'd have to check the book
• It doesn't apply to ranged combat of any sort
• Non-adepts won't have the option of penetrating blows, so they will still have to use called shots
• And let's face it, the Purple People Eater will ignore armor for all practical purposes anyway, short of a MBT

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 7 2004, 10:12 PM

Posted by: Edward Oct 7 2004, 11:31 PM

I built what amounted to a null suite already. How dose this comparer with what 64 has.

Start with your choice of armour, I used a rapid transit jumpsuit add ruthenium polymers with the maximum number of sensors thermal dampening at half that rating and the highest rated ultrasound detector emitter I could get.

Edward

Ps Jason Farlander I was not meaning to say that I thought you said we where disagreeing. I was commenting that I had not been certain of the meaning of your previous post. Unfortunately speech inflection dose not translate well into text.

Posted by: RangerJoe Oct 8 2004, 12:17 AM

Just wanted to let folks know SOTA64 is up on Stiggybaby at long last... and at 17.50, it makes wallets happy....

Posted by: RangerJoe Oct 8 2004, 12:18 AM

(That's nuyen, for all y'all who thought I meant real yen. it was a joke... sort of....)

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 8 2004, 12:35 AM

Posted by: Fortune Oct 8 2004, 01:39 AM

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 8 2004, 01:49 AM

EEP! double post... misclicked... sorry.

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 8 2004, 01:51 AM

Posted by: SilverWolf_assassin Oct 8 2004, 01:58 AM

I like the new stuff, especially in regards to the charisma adepts.
So Game machanics aside, Does anyone feel this over powers the adept or does it just further specialize them?

--------------------
Chase, Spider Conjurer of the Spiders
"Where there was one, There was a dozen"
"Where there was a bug spirit, there was a smear."

Posted by: Fortune Oct 8 2004, 02:15 AM

Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against the idea of Social Adepts per say. They are just one more thing that can be munched in Shadowrun (or any other RPG).

I think the diversification of Adepts is a good even necessary thing. Adepts have been waiting a long time for some decent attention to be turned their way, and I think the writers were up to the challenge. Way to go guys.

Posted by: Zenmaxer Oct 8 2004, 02:16 AM

I am quite happy to see them... If you play a straight priority system with no edges or flaws, they're at least a little harder to munch out.

Posted by: Cochise Oct 8 2004, 12:17 PM

Found the first thing that IMHO is in dire need of Errata:

Mana-sensitive films / cameras: Apart from the fact that the pricing of film plates is IMHO far to cheap for something that allows purely mundane persons to "assense" (with an equally low avail of 6) there's one major bug:

Mana-sensitive film easily captures manifesting magicians and spirits; this requires no Success Test

Hello? Manifestations do only occur within the mind of the persons that the magician manifests to. Photography of such things should most definitely be more difficult than Other phenomena - background count, dual-natured critters, aura scanning and spell signature analysis - require a Success test
Did somebody mix up manifestation and materialization?

Sidenote: While I generally like the idea of "Ghostbuster"-like photography, I do not like how it's presented in SOTA2064. But that could just be me ...

Posted by: krishcane Oct 8 2004, 02:04 PM

Posted by: Critias Oct 8 2004, 04:33 PM

When was it decided that magic has to be able to do everything technology can, and vice-versa?

Posted by: blakkie Oct 8 2004, 04:37 PM

Posted by: SilverWolf_assassin Oct 8 2004, 06:01 PM

We have kind of been waiting to make the traditional Bard, a balanced Charisma character with a physical presence that isn't overwhelming. We got it, level 2 reflexes. Level 2 kinesics, level 2 in a combat skill. Allocate skills in a balanced fashion and now we have a very balanced starting character with good potential. A person to avoid combat when possible and frag some posers when it isn't possible. Sounds like a good character with every reason to succeed in the shadowrun world to me.

My analysis: Best book since "Man and Machine".
---------------------------------------
Count Silver Wolf a.k.a. Maverick
"You don't understand my friend. You have been dead for an hour."
*Thud*

Posted by: SimpleRunner Oct 8 2004, 06:42 PM

It was filed with those TPS reports!

Posted by: Nikoli Oct 8 2004, 07:25 PM

That's it, I'm blowing up the building.
Tell me I can't listen to the Matrix feeds at a reasonable volumn, I'll show you all!
And, and, and, I want my stapler back.
It's a Red Swingline.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 8 2004, 07:51 PM

Posted by: snowRaven Oct 8 2004, 08:08 PM

Posted by: RangerJoe Oct 8 2004, 08:20 PM

Picasso SMASH!

It would be a little bit rough, as you're looking at a barrier rating of 12 or more (for stone), but provided you want to sculpt in units of 0.5 m or less, it should work fine. I hear the rough-cut, natural stone look might be in for 2064.

Posted by: Nikoli Oct 8 2004, 08:35 PM

I sooo gotta make a troll named picasso now...

Posted by: SimpleRunner Oct 8 2004, 08:47 PM

Add Penetrating Blow from SOTA: 2064 for the more subtle details to your sculpting details.

Posted by: Req Oct 8 2004, 09:53 PM

I played in a game with a deranged rigger named Picasso. He had a camera array on the back / underbelly of his van, and took pictures of the pedestrians he hit / ran over. He liked that "abstract art" idea.

That guy was a bit of a loon.

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Oct 8 2004, 10:09 PM

I wasn't aware that Picasso ever used the stone medium.

Posted by: SilverWolf_assassin Oct 8 2004, 10:53 PM

Terre cuite and bronze.
I am sure tire tread marks and flesh would have been used if there were access.
----------------------

I wonder if I could cyber a ghoul up to swallow a person like a snake?
Maybe a snake shape shifter could do it.

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Oct 8 2004, 10:56 PM

Your average runner wouldn't be likely to know one way or the other either!

Posted by: Edward Oct 9 2004, 12:56 AM

I dislike claming cosmetic surgery as a source of an edge. What happens if a character goes out and gets the cometic surgery later?

Edward

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 9 2004, 01:10 AM

Posted by: Synner Oct 9 2004, 02:03 PM

Back from vacations and nice to see this thread up and going

I haven't got time to get back on all your doubts, but so far I'm amazed nobody has started picking on either of the Attunements and saying adepts are going to replace riggers too.

Other than that I want to reiterate what Dude has already said. At an early point in development we debated whether or not there should be a mechanic associated with Ways. This posed several problems most of which around the issue that any such mechanic either involved extensive and limiting lists of powers or pure judgement call on the part of the GM.

We decided that the testimonies would provide a lot more in the way of direction and ideas regarding what makes an adept follow a specific Way and provide a framework for character design which didn't box anyone in. A GM's fiat was still reserved as an optional rule IIRC (see under Running Ways - The Lost) for those who wanted to give the concept more teeth in their individual games.

Posted by: Fortune Oct 9 2004, 02:18 PM

Posted by: Synner Oct 9 2004, 02:33 PM

I will, I will, I'm just catching up with a week's worth of mail backlog and another freelance project so it might take a while.

However, I'd also like to hear what people think of the other stuff in the book besides Adepts. I'm one of the authors on the Euromagic chapter and I had a lot of fun (I think everyone did) helping out in the Culture Shock section - note this one does include several ongoing plot updates.

Posted by: Cochise Oct 9 2004, 02:38 PM

Posted by: Fortune Oct 9 2004, 02:55 PM

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Oct 9 2004, 03:40 PM

Posted by: Fortune Oct 9 2004, 03:52 PM

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Oct 9 2004, 03:59 PM

True. Besides which, it wasn't exactly hard to predict that the adepts section would be the most controversial.

However, when I've read all the fluff text in the other sections I'll let everyone know what I thought of that as well. Don't hold your breath though!

Posted by: Critias Oct 9 2004, 04:16 PM

Posted by: Cochise Oct 9 2004, 05:08 PM

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 9 2004, 05:51 PM

500 posts saying "adepts are only good at sneaking and melee, make them good at something else" and now when it happens "adepts are too good at everything, cyber is worthless."

Posted by: Cochise Oct 9 2004, 06:00 PM

Posted by: Dax Oct 9 2004, 06:05 PM

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Oct 9 2004, 06:07 PM

Personally I think the new adept powers and metamagics are generally fine, however I do agree with some of what Cochise says.

More than a few of them do, more or less, replicate or exceed benefits you could previously only get with cyber or bioware.

On the other hand, as we all know, adepts are generally better when they specialise.

For example - Cochise is right that an adept can be a better mechanic than a mundane - just buy lots of bonus dice in your favourite B/R skill and take Centering (B/R). However a mundane can have an equivalent skill, or indeed higher since he's not spending any karma on initiating and generally has more points to put into skills at creation. He can also still manage a respectable +4 dice on B/R tests (Encephalon 2, Cerebral Booster 2, Enhanced Articulation) - and those will apply to ALL B/R tests, as well as a whole bunch of other skills, as well as increasing his intelligence and reaction, and making Int skill learning easier, and increasing hacking pool.

Posted by: Dax Oct 9 2004, 06:12 PM

I would also like to point out that an Adept will always take longer to get good at something than a Mundane will. For the simple fact that for an Adept to gain more points for their powers they HAVE to Initiate. And Initiation gets more and more expensive the higher you go.

A mundane with some a decent pile of cred can get some nifty cyberware installed nice and quick, and get the results right away. They also don't spend as much Karma because they don't have to pay for an initiation.

I don't really see the big problem here.

Posted by: mfb Oct 9 2004, 06:20 PM

how exactly is a starting adept going to have any infusion foci at all, much less multiple infusion foci? or don't they cost karma to bond?

most of what you're complaining about, cochise, will probably be solved in SOTA:65, where (i'm willing to bet good money) they'll have a 'new cyberware' section.

what are you referring to, re: SOTA63 and filesharing? the only thing i see relative to that is the cracking program, which answers your question pretty neatly. how do you fileshare when all you have is the object code? use your cracker utility on it, to rebuild the source code. i don't see anything else on filesharing, though i've missed stuff before.

Posted by: Cochise Oct 9 2004, 06:27 PM

Posted by: Cochise Oct 9 2004, 06:34 PM

Posted by: mfb Oct 9 2004, 06:49 PM

you're thinking of the high-power character creation rules in MJLBB. if you're making high-powered characters, i don't see a problem with adepts starting with foci.

i've never understood the stick-in-the-mud mentality, with regards to either magic or cyber. i mean, why shouldn't magic and technology be expanding into new areas? i mean, consider how incredibly unrealistic that would be--when a culture puts an emphasis on progress (as opposed to tradition, a la the dark ages), the state of the art in that culture grows in leaps and bounds. why in the world should magic and/or technology remain chained to what we had in SR1?

as far as introducing real-world concepts into SR, what would you suggest? re-inventing the wheel every time SR need to introduce a new advance?

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 9 2004, 06:50 PM

Any adept could buy any cyber that would help them. That's why almost all pistol adepts have smartlinks. Nothing is purely the domain of mundanes except possibly mana warps. Cyber still achieves power faster than adepts (unless the karma/ ratio is off in your games) and adepts still aren't limited to 5.99 before they drop dead.

Starting cyber can still make any character more versatile and generally powerful at chargen than starting adept powers.

Posted by: mfb Oct 9 2004, 06:53 PM

no kidding. i'm playing a ~200 karma adept whose focus is combat, and i'm still playing catch-up to well-designed starting-level sammies. the problem is, in order to excel one thing, adepts have to give up almost everything else. that's the balancing factor, for adepts--sure, you can become the greatest pistoleer in the world, but what happens when you don't have your pistols?

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 9 2004, 07:13 PM

What *I'd* like to see coming up: ways for mundanes to counter, duplicate, or just plain be better than magic. Since background counts are already around, maybe SotA 2065 can have ways to create artificial background count or even mana warps. As for duplicating or finding areas that magic simply can't be a part of, I'm at a loss.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 9 2004, 07:28 PM

Mine was shipped by Stiggy babys on thursday, I'm still waiting.

Posted by: Snow_Fox Oct 9 2004, 07:35 PM

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Oct 9 2004, 08:09 PM

Well, there are some places where awakened characters can be replaced by more mundane things. For example using biofibre instead of wards. It's not the same, but it's not bad either.

If you want to create a background count somewhere, just do lots of really shady things! Murder a few people, ruthlessly sterilise the whole place, etc.

Let's not forget the various strains of FAB. Every mundanes favourite! Or at least mine.


A place that magic can't be a part of: The Matrix.

Magic can have a very small impact here, for example with Increase Intelligence spells, Pain Resistance and so on. But to most intents and purposes it doesn't make any difference in the matrix if you're a grade 16 super-adept or not. If you're running on Hot ASIST it's all about tech and natural ability.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 9 2004, 08:34 PM

And Improved Ability(technical skills). But the point is well-made; the Matrix (and to a lesser extent rigging) are the last bastions of mundanes.

As for tech duplicating magic, I guess that's not really what I'm looking for. What I really want is for magic to not become as pervasive as I see it becoming lately. More and more I'm feeling like SR is becoming like D&D in the sense that if you don't have access to magic you might as well be crippled, especially at mid-to-high levels.

Posted by: mfb Oct 9 2004, 08:51 PM

there are no IA: Technical Skills. at least, not that i'm aware of.

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Oct 9 2004, 08:56 PM

Indeed there isn't. I was just going to say the same! Even if there was I'm not sure I'd allow it to work in the matrix. Hmm, perhaps...

It's just Physical, Combat, Articstic/Performance Knowledge, B/R, Social and Vehicle skills that you can get Improved Ability for - which is quite enough!!


Edit: Although you can get Centering on Technical skills. But again, grumble grumble, magic and the matrix, no no no, etc.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 9 2004, 09:29 PM

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 9 2004, 09:31 PM

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 9 2004, 09:42 PM

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 9 2004, 09:46 PM

Posted by: Synner Oct 9 2004, 09:54 PM

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 9 2004, 10:01 PM

Posted by: mfb Oct 9 2004, 10:03 PM

mainly so that you can't take IA: Computers.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 9 2004, 10:14 PM

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Oct 9 2004, 10:45 PM

I don't think the mana-sensitive camera is worth all the time spent posting about it, but I'll throw my opinion in none the less!

Firstly, for anyone who doesn't have the book it "easily captures manifesting mages and spirits" (can spirits manifest? I think they mean materialising, but I'm too lazy to check up) - no Success Test required, so it just works.

For other things, like background count, critters, spells, etc, you need to make a success test using an appropriate photography knowledge skill or similar and count half the successes, yadda yadda.

I'm not too sure I'm happy with the way that works for one thing, it'd be better that the camera had a rating and you rolled that plus photography as complimentary for the success test.

But anyway that fact means, I think, that this camera can't be used as a passive security device against anything other than manifesting mages and spirits. If it has no "skill" there's absolutely no chance it can possibly capture anything astral other than those. So you either have to have a rigger jumped into the camera using his own skill, or a drone with an autosoft interpretation system or somesuch.


Okay, and there ends anything I have to say about the astral camera!

What else was in there? Did someone mention rocket launchers? Ooh...

Posted by: Caine Hazen Oct 9 2004, 11:02 PM

Look, burnination and fhgwhgads was all the book needed to make it perfect!! Only my name as a shadow commentator would have been better....but I love it so far!

Posted by: FlakJacket Oct 9 2004, 11:09 PM

Heh, just noticed the Credits/Props bit. Ada strikes again.

Posted by: Req Oct 9 2004, 11:44 PM

Whoa, fhgwhgads is in it? Now I'm totally psyched I ordered it.

Come on, fhgwhgads...

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 10 2004, 12:00 AM

I assume you both actually mean fhqwhgads. You are both *so* not to the limit.

Posted by: FlakJacket Oct 10 2004, 12:01 AM

They offed Patrick? Oh now that's just rude.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 10 2004, 12:13 AM

my last post on the camera subject...

it have the ability to see astral stuff as if it was a astraly active entity when used with a success test, so why the hell should it need a sucess test to pick up on something anyone alive and present can pick up even if they are mundanes? even if its a mental image it still require astral energy. and astral energy to a level where even mundanes can pick it up without being targeted by it. this means radiating astral energys and therefor the camera to should be able to capture said energy. just aim it at the source and snap...

Posted by: Cochise Oct 10 2004, 12:20 AM

Posted by: Deacon Oct 10 2004, 12:37 AM

Real quick here:

Regarding the new astral camera: You all are forgetting something. This is Shadowrun. The rules make reality. Rules can and will contradict each other. The rules have changed. Deal with it.

Regarding adepts: Adepts are specialists. Samurai and mundanes are not. (Though for the purposes of the game, sammies and mundies are the same damn thing -- only diff is the mundie don't like being superhuman, for some strange reason.) I do deplore the fact that the authors of this book decided to screw the mundies, but perhaps in SOTA65, the pendulum will swing back the other way. In any case, it's going to be up to the GM to balance things out -- a position I hate, but then the only other possibility I see is to convert everything to another system and balance things out across the board.

Anyone want to share some of the other things in the book? My copy won't be arriving for a while...

Posted by: FlakJacket Oct 10 2004, 12:40 AM

Yes, the authors of the adept section have obviously watched that Remo Williams film way too many times.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 10 2004, 12:47 AM

Posted by: Cochise Oct 10 2004, 12:47 AM

Posted by: Sabosect Oct 10 2004, 12:52 AM

Well, I was going to post something long and argumentative, but after the last post I read, I decided I had better keep out of this one.

I will say this: Perhaps astral cameras work like the real cameras that can photograph auras. They just discovered some new way to play with the filter or the lens.

Posted by: Siege Oct 10 2004, 01:38 AM

Eh, we're falling back into the "mundane versus magic" arguments which are a spin-off from the "samurai versus adept" arguments.

I will make one comparison - "CED" versus "IA".

Can a specialist smoke a generalist in a particular field? Probably. Will the specialist be as useful as the generalist in a circumstance outside of his (or her) specialty? Probably not.

Magic duplicating cyberware and vice versa has been in place since the first adept rules mentioned enhanced senses being able to, generally speaking, duplicate most if not all of the cyber senses. Which was a way of condensing the section and not wasting space to needlessly repeat previous text.

Now it holds true because the justifications and numbers that explain most of the adept's powers can easily be duplicated in mechanical terms. The numbers produced for an adept's "cognition" ability could equally be used to describe the encephalon's multi-tasking ability as mentioned in "ShadowTech."

Which leads to interesting complications for deckers and riggers if a GM allows the encephalon to duplicate said effects.

There are very few adept powers that function "just because" or in such a way as to be unduplicateable by cyber. I think it was mfb who posted a masterful summary of how the same powers could be duplicated by cyberware.

Posted by: mfb Oct 10 2004, 01:47 AM

haha, George H. W. Bush Center for Intelligence. that's one point for Szeto.

Posted by: FlakJacket Oct 10 2004, 02:06 AM

Other little throwaways include Murtaugh commenting on how diplomatic immunity doesn't make you bulletproof in the intelligence section.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 10 2004, 02:24 AM

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 10 2004, 02:25 AM

Posted by: Fortune Oct 10 2004, 03:08 AM

Posted by: Tzeentch Oct 10 2004, 03:14 AM

-- One problem with Shadowrun is there's no followup on anything important. This magical camera is a giant can of worms as it's an electro-optical mana sensor. I'm waiting on my copy of the book, but this sounds even worse then the problems of FAB and thus it's no surprise so many people focus on it.

Posted by: Dax Oct 10 2004, 03:34 AM

Posted by: Fortune Oct 10 2004, 03:36 AM

Posted by: Fortune Oct 10 2004, 03:40 AM

Posted by: Fortune Oct 10 2004, 04:02 AM

Posted by: Siege Oct 10 2004, 05:49 AM

Combining IA and CED skills...

Ya know, my basic reaction is to cry, "oh hell no"...but come to think of it, I don't think IA requires the adept to actually have the skill in question...

I'll have to look at the main book before I can wail in abject fright.

But I was thinking the CED is the mundane's answer to IA before your Halloween trick.

-Siege

Posted by: mfb Oct 10 2004, 05:52 AM

IA does, in fact, require you to have the actual skill. you can't have more dice in IA than you have in the skill.

Posted by: Siege Oct 10 2004, 06:07 AM

Which kills the idea of mixing IA and CED - CED requires the skill to be chipped which automatically overrides any natural talent.

Hmm...but if the adept already has the skill, gets the skillwires and the CED necessary...it doesn't inherently preclude use of IA with the chipped skill.

You can argue the interpretation either way. Bah.

-Siege

Posted by: Fortune Oct 10 2004, 06:30 AM

Oops! Yeah I realized after I logged off that a character actually needed to know the skill to use IA.

As was said though, a case could be made that he would know the skill at the time he are using the Chip, as that is the point of Skillwires. What's even munchier is that he could Gaes the IA Power with the condition that it could only be used with Chipped Skills.

That aside though, there are still quite a few Adept Powers that are quite capable of being used in conjunction with Cyber/Bioware. My point was that it isn't only a matter of comparing (and balancing) Magic with Wares, because there is not much to stop the Adept from acquiring the same Wares.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 10 2004, 07:01 AM

After thinking about it a little more, I believe I've come up with a few more of the reasons that books like this SotA are bothering me. Aside from the fact that there are very few ways to block magic in general, even fewer ways to block an adept's magic specifically, and fewer still wholly mundane ways to block magic of either type, what gets under my skin about the Awakened is:

-they can use anything a mundane can use, and any time they can't they can usually get an identical or better Awakened power that a mundane can't match. The only real exception to this are really high-Essence cyberware/bioware like the rigger's VCR, which takes up so much Essence the mage or adept has a hard time just "dealing with." Not that the mundane can just toss his Essence to the wind either; he has a limited amount for one, and there are a few notable side-effects of spending lots of Essence points as well.
-there is, theoretically, no ceiling to their powers. Mundanes will eventually run out of things to upgrade. There is an Attribute Maximum, a skill maximum based on those attributes, a maximum of 6 Essence (unless you go CZ, which is just stupid for nearly all mundane characters, except *maybe* the sam.) Magic users have these same limits as well. With Initiation and foci, however, came an infinitely-increasing font of power for the Awakened. Naturally it's very very expensive Karma-wise to do so, but it's a path that mundane characters just don't have.

The second of these two issues really isn't that important, except in a psychological sense. There is no way that any mundane character will ever get near the point where they start getting to their power ceiling over the course of a practical game, but the fact that the ceiling exists at all makes me just a little claustrophobic. Why should the Awakened have access to a source of infinitely-scaling power when the mundanes don't?

I seriously doubt that there's really any way to really deal with this second issue. To solve it you'd have to give mundanes some sort of Initiation-like deal that the Awakened by their very nature can't participate in, and I have no idea what that could be or how it could work. This isn't even the real problem anyway, so it might not even need to be solved.

It's the first concern that truly worries me, and most likely the other doomsayers in this thread. Although it's true that you'll never actually see a single character with all or even a significant fraction of the adept powers described here and elsewhere, you will find them all as NPCs, somewhere in the masses. With all these new powers in such wide-ranging areas, I'd be amazed if within a few years of game time there were any mundanes doing anything of consequence that an adept or a mage couldn't do just as well or better.

If I wanted to play in a world where magic did everything important and technology sat in the back until the adults were done doing the real work I'd be playing D&D.

Posted by: Fortune Oct 10 2004, 07:18 AM

Posted by: mfb Oct 10 2004, 09:28 AM

interesting stuff in there, concerning several interesting plot threads. Winterknight, for one; Deus, for another.

here's an odd theme i noticed: feminism. it pops up in the adept section, the euromagic section, and the culture shock section. was this intentional?

Posted by: Synner Oct 10 2004, 10:21 AM

Posted by: Synner Oct 10 2004, 01:29 PM

And on the subject of fan input and feedback how about some more thoughts on the book?

Posted by: Siege Oct 10 2004, 01:47 PM

Blond - take away the idea of Geasing magic loss due to bio or cyberware and everything snaps back into a healthy perspective. A magical character could still Geas to avoid magical loss due to injury or to make certain powers cheaper, but not to offset an inherent alteration of the fundamental paradigm of how magic works.

As for the limitless magic person - that's true, in theory. If you play in a karma-rich environment, magical types will be more powerful since mundanes have a more limited means of spending Karma. Unless you opt for allowing players to spend Karma on reducing cyberware costs - x amount of karma on personalizing cyberware, to the point the character and the character's body no longer think it's something foreign...hmm...must explore later...

Edit:

That being said, however, mages and adepts are still glass cannons for the most part and with firearms able to kick damage into S and D categories without too much effort, you still have to survive the encounters to reach those lofty levels of initiation.

-Siege

Posted by: Siege Oct 10 2004, 01:53 PM

The European magical traditions were interesting, but a lot of that material had been explored in some detail previous books, so it felt like a re-print to some readers. I haven't done a direct book-by-book comparison, simply noting that was the impression I was left with.

My overall impression was the book seemed...off-balance. Personally, I would have preferred a clear pattern of fluff, numbers, fluff, numbers. The book seemed to be jumbled in that respect, but that is strictly my opinion from three or four fast reads.

I think there was a lack of clear sectional division from subject matter A to subject matter B, which may have contributed to my feeling of the material being "jumbled".

The "gangsta orkz" and the gambling sections were a little long for the overall impact either will have on most games - both could have been cut in half and still produced the same impact.

Not to say I think the book sucked - I enjoyed it quite a bit and look forward to going nuts with some of the options presented herein.

-Siege

Posted by: TheDude Oct 10 2004, 03:44 PM

Posted by: Siege Oct 10 2004, 03:47 PM

And you did a great job, Dude. I thoroughly enjoyed the adept powers section, a minor twitch here and there notwithstanding.

There will always be players who argue "why play anything other than a mage because they are so much 'er'?"

-Siege

Posted by: TheDude Oct 10 2004, 03:56 PM

I would also like to point out that there is a lot of interpretation on Ways, and what they mean for the character.

There are certainly things that Synner and I agree on with Ways that shows up in the material - but I can tell you we spent hours arguing over some aspects of Ways, especially with respect to "Lost" adepts. We're both stubborn perfectionists .

What wasn't up in the air, and was the true unifying point of importance, is that Ways should be integral to character creation when making an adept, and not just a throw-away concept. Shamans take totems, there is no question about it. I'd like adepts to have the same standard.

But, that is really tough to do without mechanics (and shamans have a few "outs" - totems that are really hands off), but the material stands up IMO. Both Synner and I have put out posts already explaining why mechaincs were not the best idea for Ways. So we had a real challenge.

I hope players of adepts are motivated to incorporate Ways, and I encourage GMs to consider the optional rules regarding adepts that don't want to take a Way.

Posted by: Synner Oct 10 2004, 04:06 PM

What he said... and many thanks to James for balancing both of us out.

Siege - Thanks for the comment, although only Druidism was ever addressed at length (in London and later the Grimoires), I do understand the impression that this is somewhat familiar ground. Most of the stuff is new though. We fleshed out Idol followers, taking them away from generic pagan shamanic types and setting them in actual Sixth World belief systems. Strangely enough Witchcraft and Norse magic had been barely touched before and we also added some colour to what is often thought as monolithic Hermetic magic with the new schools of hermetic thought and the academic conflict.

And no one has gripes with Charms yet?

Posted by: mfb Oct 10 2004, 05:55 PM

heck, synner, we've been using metamagic-switched mages for quite a while. 'bout time SR canon caught up with us!

Posted by: apple Oct 10 2004, 06:00 PM

Posted by: Cochise Oct 10 2004, 06:04 PM

Posted by: Cochise Oct 10 2004, 06:06 PM

Posted by: apple Oct 10 2004, 06:11 PM

"Funny" ... I remembered something like an errata for M&M?

SYL

Posted by: Cochise Oct 10 2004, 06:18 PM

There was an Errata for M&M yes ... but the M&M-Errata only changed the overall karma reduction Menomnic enhancer granted ... There's nothing in regards to a (then) unknown metatechnique that has the same effect ...

Posted by: apple Oct 10 2004, 06:23 PM

I know, I know. It was more like a "Hey, look, we killed the Mnemo-3-bonus for the Mundane Characters ... and look, now the Awakend can do it better (because they can combine it)"-comment.

BTW: did you receive my PM?

SYL

Posted by: Synner Oct 10 2004, 06:24 PM

Note however that Cognition (like Somatic Control and Infusion) is an advanced metamagic technique, meaning you first have to pick up the basic technique of Centering and the relevant Centering skill (as well as the creative/artistic Skill, if you don't have one), all of which increases the overall karma cost significantly and makes the tweak factor for non-specialists less interesting. Also, Cognition doesn't have levels and is only available to adepts and not all Awakened types.

Posted by: apple Oct 10 2004, 06:37 PM

Well ... its an metatechnique and if I am not mistaken you receive one Powerpoint (I don´t know the english word for "Kraftpunkt") for new adept powers, so it´s not really a disadvantage to get a new metatechnique. Centering itself is not really an disadvantage either.

So: _why_ is cognition compatible with the mnemonic enhancer, especially regarding the errata which nerfed the ME because a lot of people saw the -2 and -3 bonus as too unbalanced?

Note: I am just asking. I will make my opinion once I tested the rules and possibility at least in my mind. But from what I heard it seems that the "Mage&Adeptrun" is not really inadequate.

Edit: Btw what about the other chapters in SOTA 64? How is the quality of the spy- and the police-articles?

SYL

Posted by: Synner Oct 10 2004, 06:45 PM

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 10 2004, 06:50 PM

and it take it as its based of centering you will have to do a centering test to see how good and effect it have? (i dont have the book btw)...

Posted by: mfb Oct 10 2004, 06:50 PM

the spy stuff is great, with one or two minor oddities. for instance, it could be important to know what skill those cigarette-rockets use, as well as how long the delay is between lighting up and firing--not to mention the effects of rocket exhaust on smokers' lungs. also, both they and the suitcase rockets seem... over-the-top, i guess. the Budget Pool could use some minor clarifications; i'm assuming that it refreshes at the end of every 'run', but that's never explicitly stated that i can see.

police stuff is... police stuff. the info on jail culture's pretty cool. other than that, and the new toys, nothing here's a surprise if you've ever gotten your hands on the Lone Star SB. the LSSB is one of my favorites, though, so that's not exactly a bad thing.

the culture shock section has some of the most interesting tidbits hidden in the most obscure places. it will be fun, seeing where a lot of those little plot hooks go.

Posted by: Cochise Oct 10 2004, 06:56 PM

Posted by: apple Oct 10 2004, 07:01 PM

Posted by: mfb Oct 10 2004, 07:22 PM

true.

so, feminism in SOTA:64. was that a conscious theme, or just coincidence?

Posted by: Synner Oct 10 2004, 07:50 PM

mfb - It's not so much a conscious decision to pick up the theme as something that fit into a wider picture of not only this but other books. Personally I think its simply a consequence of SR delving into the multicultural, globalized aspects of the Sixth World beyond its original relatively narrow focus. Someone recently mentioned they were pleased to find an increasing number of references to Islam, I think that too reflects the same preocupation.

Nevertheless I'd note that Mutter Erde and the Sie date right back to the original Germany Sb and are not necessarily anything new to the universe.

btw- As someone working on developing his own take on adept's, I'd like to hear your opinions on the stuff in SOTA64. Drop me a line when you can.

Regarding the "hidden" stuff in the Culture Shock section, yeah, there's plenty if people take a real hard look. From some follow up to events in DidS2 to updates on Threats 2 and an possible comeback (with ominous echoes in the Spy chapter) there are loads of developments tucked away in unexpected places.

Posted by: Fortune Oct 10 2004, 10:39 PM

Posted by: mfb Oct 11 2004, 05:35 AM

so. anybody else read the Chico-Oroville Dam account and think "holy hell, i gotta play/run that!"

and, for bonus points, who's figured out who the Johnson is? (for bonus-bonus points, state his probable rank!)

Posted by: Synner Oct 11 2004, 07:42 AM

Posted by: Canid13 Oct 11 2004, 11:46 AM

Okay, I've read the Spy, Police and Adept sections of SOTA64 and I can safely say I don't feel cheated with this book - it was actually worth spending money on, and that's saying something for the recent SR books.

Spy Section
Okay, this seems to be well thought out and reasonably written. I didn't know much of this stuff, aside from the Seraphim - and I guess the MIFD was known - but the rest was cool. It takes the agencies from SoNA and others and adds them in. Not sure I'd agree with the stuff on the Security Service, but hey - I never do when it comes to Blighty in SR (so it seems).

Couple of points of note - the Sonic rifle is tres cool. Gotta get me one of those, and it does tie in nicely with a subplot I've been working on. In my world, that little baby won't be launched until late 64, got major plans for it :o) However, the thermal null suit just seems WRONG. The text and the rules are at odds with each other, and it sucks compared to anything previously done - I can get the same thing from form fitting armour and thermal dampening - plus get it camo'd and a few other cool bits and bobs (ruthenium springs to mind).

Also, the Cellular tracker thingy - I know that's impossible so it doesn't exist in my camapign, but that's to be expected since SR has no clue on radio or cellular what-so-ever. Not's not a major biggie - you join the ranks of Tom Clancy in that regard.

Most of the other stuff was okay, and potentially useful though, so it won't be wasted - especially peel n stick armour. That's cool stuff :o)

Police Chapter
This was perhaps the poorest section I've read so far. It feels like SoE and a bunch of others - an update. However, it does have some useful information in it, like the make up of a SWAT team for the Star (but WTF is an FRT and why the split?!?!) and also Dips and GridSec. Doesn't have much on KE or the others, but I guess I'll just make them identical to the Star aside from some brands of gear.

The new gear was kinda handy, though the list was a tad sparse. And to be honest, a lot of stuff I thought should have been in this section was in the spy one. But hey, it happens.

Adepts Chapter
This was pretty good. The powers themselves are okay, and for the most part reasonably good. Gliding and the wall running powers seem particularly pointles (oh goodie, I can run for 6m over water?!?!?!) but the social ones, well it's about bloody time the Troubadour made an appearance. And the limited projection for the Magician Adept was also nice. I'm still trying to figure out whcih powers the Wolf Adept had though, but I can probably imagine some of them - but claws and stuff?!?!

The metamagics on the whole weren't too overpowering and I think went some way to making adepts a more playable choice on the whole. I thought they needed a little more balancing but I haven't played with them yet so I'll wait and see.

Truth be told, there were some powers which made me want to play an adept, and some metamagics which increased that. I'm not sure I ever will, but I can see adept NPC's appearing more and more in my campaign.

Overall, I thought this book was pretty good. The fact that the mana-senstive camera takes to long and can't be hooked up to a computer - unless you scanned in the image once it were done (say hello to 30 minute lags or whatever it is) - you're unable to hook it to any CCSS or drone. So it's really limited and kinda pointless.

I will add my own voice to those who see magic as monopolising the game. I've had requests from people to run a magic free campaign, and not just no spellcasters, they want EVERYTHING magical removed - no Trolls or dragons or anything. And to be honest, that's appealing to me LOTS since it negates a very powerful weapon which isn't balanced properly - spellcasting, and it also puts everyone on an even keel. At this point in time, I'm surprised that after 51 years of the awakening no one has come up with something which can provide 'armour' against spells. No implant which makes you less conducive to mana flow or impedes the spells' effects.

On the whole, good book. Not read the culture shock or euromagic sections as yet, but I'm getting to them.

Posted by: Fortune Oct 11 2004, 01:30 PM

Posted by: Fortune Oct 11 2004, 01:34 PM

[post retracted]

Posted by: Black Isis Oct 11 2004, 02:19 PM

Posted by: bitrunner Oct 11 2004, 02:50 PM

Posted by: Critias Oct 11 2004, 03:09 PM

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Oct 11 2004, 03:47 PM

Hate to burst your bubble, but... mfb's not an idiot. He knows.

Posted by: Canid13 Oct 11 2004, 04:39 PM

Okay, Bitrunner, I can see your point - but my point is I don't have access to the information you're updating!! This is a now constant frustration and could put me off of SR if it doesn't get addressed. Crimsondude, thank you for your explaination - guess that's something to look out for. Wouldn't have thought SWAT arrogance would have caused that.... but again I haven't the specifics. Appreciated though.

Posted by: Norsemen Oct 11 2004, 05:51 PM

First time Post:

Just got SOTA64 in mail and had a question about adapts. The attunement metamagic technique allows attuning items, but the list is for mundane items. Can you attune a weapon foci, or is that too munchkin?

Also the Magic of the old world had a section on Norse magic. A "ganner" is a spell slinger? My family name is Ganner and I have never heard of this meaning of the name. Who wrote that section and where do I get more information?

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Oct 11 2004, 06:05 PM

It doesn't say you can't attune a focus, and since they have the same OR as a mundane equivalent (right?) the karma cost should be the same - e.g. 9 karma for your dikoted weapon focus.

When I read about that technique I assumed this was the first and most likely thing adepts would use it for. Weapon focus is already a ritual link to you, and you really don't want to lose it anyway cos it cost you a lot of money and karma, so you won't mind dumping even more karma into it as you would, say, a Predator that you picked up for a few hundred nuyen.

Incidentally, I also assume that attunement works just fine with a smartlink. So if you did attune a firearm you could get -3 on all TNs with that and a Smartlink - kinda eh, what's the word, better, than a Street Sam eh?

Still, at least it only works for one particular firearm, and costs you a little karma.


In any case, despite all the above comments, I still think the adepts section is fine - and I don't even play an adept!

Posted by: JongWK Oct 11 2004, 06:06 PM

Posted by: audun Oct 11 2004, 06:13 PM

Posted by: Cochise Oct 11 2004, 06:27 PM

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Oct 11 2004, 06:27 PM

Posted by: mfb Oct 11 2004, 06:36 PM

Posted by: Synner Oct 11 2004, 06:57 PM

Just got my copy in the mail and I've got to mention one thing no one seems to have touched on yet about the book. IMHO the art is exceptional throughout - and I struck lucky the stuff in Adepts and Euromagic chapters is particularly cool. A couple of rougher pieces here and there but I think this has some of the best looking illos overall in my collection. Kudos to all the artists involved.

Posted by: Zeel De Mort Oct 11 2004, 07:20 PM

Posted by: mfb Oct 11 2004, 07:24 PM

my favorites are in the spy section. the first page, and the pic of the guy upside-down and shooting. i like the way the artist takes advantage of the black-and-white format, rather than doing simple line art that would look better colored in.

Posted by: Pthgar Oct 11 2004, 11:45 PM

Did anyone noice that the "hellcow" incident from the top ten lists (p. 157-158)? It's the Ghenis from Earthdawn. I wonder if this is just a bit of fun or a renewal of the ED-SR meta-plot. Personally, I wouldn't mind some of that coming back, but perhaps not as strongly as before.

On the whole, I liked the book. I don't really understand why there's always an outcry when a new sourcebook comes out. If you don't like it, don't use it. (shrugs shoulders)

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 11 2004, 11:48 PM

Posted by: Demonseed Elite Oct 11 2004, 11:48 PM

The ED-SR metaplot isn't gone, it's just not the central axis that the SR metaplot revolves around, nor is SR going to limit itself to a strict constraint of making sure everything matches ED material.

Posted by: Fortune Oct 11 2004, 11:52 PM

Posted by: mfb Oct 12 2004, 12:34 AM

the culture shock section was the only one besides the adept section that i read front-to-back more than once. the 'top ten' lists made for some very high information density; i didn't notice the Killimanjaro blurb until my second pass. there were a lot of things in that section that made my jaw drop.

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 12 2004, 01:14 AM

Posted by: WhiteRabbit Oct 12 2004, 02:22 AM

Speaking of the art, any pictures of a female troll?

Posted by: mfb Oct 12 2004, 03:44 AM

specifics. well, the Chico-Oroville Dam thing was cool as hell. "army of shadowrunners" is just a fun phrase. Killimanjaro is big, big news. the Flatline Killer smacks of all kinds of metaplot links--the Network? Ex Pacis?

and i can't quite seem to get a good handle on what it might mean, but i keep seeing these odd links between Winternight and Deus.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 12 2004, 03:50 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 12 2004, 04:05 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 12 2004, 04:07 AM

Asides aside, I'm still very up in the air about what I've heard/seen/read. Hoping to get a good look at everything in another week or so, at which point I'll post back. More Deus hooks equals much goodness, however.

~J

Posted by: Synner Oct 12 2004, 07:31 AM

Posted by: Deacon Oct 12 2004, 08:59 AM

Posted by: mfb Oct 12 2004, 09:12 AM

indeed. it should be a given that one can deviate from the rules at any time, in one's own game--but if you end up deviating too much, you may as well just not buy the books at all. and if nobody's buying the books, FanPro/WizKids goes out of business, meaning no more SR products. that would make those of us that do use the books pretty unhappy.

Posted by: Nikoli Oct 12 2004, 03:39 PM

One thing i have noticed, when discussing Tech vs. magic
is every Pen and Paper RPG where Magic and Technology are tools available for the players, the "slow path" where you must eventually build up, and do not start at the top of the power curve will usually have the higher top end.

Personally, I love the idea of mundanes and mundanes only being able to spend Karma to regain Essence or reduce the cost for cyber. This would shift the balance of power between the two back to the middle, where it's more fun for everyone.

Having played several characters that were little more than a few chunks on a table without their cyber, there quickly comes a point where there is nothing more you can do. Then I switch to playing an adept and I see the top end of the power curve, but then I remember that my cyber-junkie can retool for various tasks relativelty quickly, where a sword specialist phys-ad who has spent all their power on mastering the sword cannot.

I guess in the end it can be summed up, in my mind at least, as this:
Cyber has a rapid power curve, topping out potentially at char-gen until a new book is released, but there is more inherent versatility and flexability in the character concepts.
Magic has a slightly slower power curve (you don't pay the difference to go from a force 4 manaball to a force 5, they are separate spells) and the more power you gain, the more likely you are to be highly specialised and have more difficulty adapting to changing conditions.
Remember, a powerful mage draws powerful enemies.

This isn't a challenge to see who can build the most versatile killing machine based on magic, it's just been my observation of Shadowrun over the last 12 years, tempered by playing games like Rifts, D&D, and a host of other games.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 12 2004, 04:35 PM

Look, the point I was making there is that we are free to dislike rules. However, just as with everything else, sometimes people dislike a rule because they misinterpret it or because they don't notice an interesting application or because they dont understand how that rule would mesh with other canon rules, when in fact it does.

Basically, I see any given rule as one person's opinion (subject to review) of how something should work. Sometimes those people have their own misconceptions, and sometimes editorial review misses contradictions with existing rules. People are fallible, and rpg writers are (for the most part) people. For the most part I give the writers the benefit of the doubt, and try to mold my understanding of the game to fit with their presentations. Sometimes, however, they manage to produce something jarringly incongruous with how other rules have shaped my view of the world, and I hold it as my right to be annoyed.

When I dislike a rule vehemently, and am certain that I will not be swayed in my opinion, I dont bother post about it here. I agree that there would be no point in doing so. However, sometimes my dislike of a rule is based on one of the misconceptions I listed above, and I use this board as a tool to weed out those. Attempting to stifle discussion about the reasonableness of a particular rule is not productive towards those ends, and hey - if the rule really *is* reasonable, it shouldn't be terribly hard to defend. There are some very intelligent people on this board.

I certainly do not advocate that people avoid buying the books. I like shadowrun and want to see it thrive. But that is no excuse to blindly accept all of the rules at face value, nor is it a reason to avoid attempting to clarify one's opinion on a particular rule.

Posted by: Apathy Oct 12 2004, 05:31 PM

What?!? This is the dumpshock forum, rational discussion is not allowed here.

(I'd finally given in to the idea that people aren't capable of expressing opinions in a rational, non-ranting way, and now you're making me second-guess myself again. Damn you! )

Posted by: TheDude Oct 12 2004, 05:54 PM

Posted by: TheDude Oct 12 2004, 05:56 PM

Posted by: Synner Oct 12 2004, 07:26 PM

Posted by: Fortune Oct 12 2004, 11:27 PM

Tres Cool!

I wasn't taking issue with Cognition at all. Merely with your computation of it's cost. I still maintain that it isn't valid to include Centering, as it is still a separate Metamagic on its own, with its own not-inconsiderable advantages.

I understand what you are trying to get at though. I do acknowledge that Centering itself does require two skills, plus at least one Initiation, all in all being quite expensive. The fact that Cognition cannot be acquired until after the Adept learns Centering does indeed make it a Karma-intensive purchase, if cost calculation is extrapolated from chargen. I think my point was that there are already a lot of Adepts out there with Centering (simply because there was few other choices - good or bad). For them the bulk of the costs in your calculation have already been payed.

As I have stated a few times though, you guys did a good job, especially in regards to material that was guaranteed to raise controversy.

Posted by: Pthgar Oct 13 2004, 01:30 AM

Posted by: Fortune Oct 13 2004, 01:46 AM

None taken (now ).

In my opinion, the 'back and forth' serves to familiarize people with the rules, maybe even giving them a different perspective than they would normally have had without input from the rest of the forum. For instance, I'm a little more comfortable with some (but not all) of the Social Powers than I was in upon the initially reading.

Posted by: RangerJoe Oct 13 2004, 02:51 AM

I just wanted to pop in to say great job to the SOTA64 team. Just got my copy today, and I've perused up through the end of the adept section. Having never played an adept before, I've now got literally half a dozen character ideas bouncing around my head to make use of the new powers. Any book that can get players excited about new character types and new games is a great success.

Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2004, 03:16 AM

indeed. the adept section alone puts this book in my top ten SR books.

you know what i just realized makes the culture shock section so good, especially the top ten lists? the tightness of the writing, and the sparseness of the exposition. it doesn't go into overly-exhaustive detail; it just lays out the pertinent facts and forces you connect the dots yourself.

Posted by: Bane Oct 13 2004, 03:30 AM

Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2004, 03:36 AM

no one's answered, so i'm gonna go for my own bonus points. the Johnson for the Chico-Oroville incident was, i believe, one LTC Lloyd Ritter, aka Grey Knight, part-time shadowrunner and part-time asskicker for Ares' military assets.

here's something funny, about Ritter: his rank. in YotC (2061), he's listed as a Lieutenant Colonel. in SOTA:63, though, it calls him a Colonel. now, it's easily possible that he got a promotion between '61 and '63--except that, in the shadowtalk, someone says that he was a Major only six months ago! even if you explained away the LTC-Colonel discrepancy with the fact that LTCs are sometimes referred to, in less formal settings, as "Colonel so-and-so", you've still got the oddity of Ritter going from an LTC in '61, to a Major in '62, and back to LTC in '63. that sort of rank-hopping is possible, but it'd sure be interesting to hear the backstory, there.

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Oct 13 2004, 03:49 AM

Typo?

Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2004, 03:55 AM

indeed. i'm forever typing "six months" when i mean to type "two years and six months"!

that's a pretty minor oops, though. i tend to follow Ritter's official career, which is why i picked up on it.

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Oct 13 2004, 05:10 AM

Well, then... Ask spud.

I can think of a character who was supposedly supposed to be a Major, but it isn't Ritter.

Posted by: Canid13 Oct 13 2004, 07:14 AM

Posted by: Rock-Steady Oct 13 2004, 07:17 AM

Posted by: Canid13 Oct 13 2004, 07:20 AM

Do you mean for Karma purposes or will you end up actually knowing spells at several different maximum forces??

Posted by: Rock-Steady Oct 13 2004, 10:38 AM

Posted by: Canid13 Oct 13 2004, 10:48 AM

Then what's the point of being able to decide the spell's force when you cast it.

I'll look this up myself, as it doesn't sound right.

Posted by: Rock-Steady Oct 13 2004, 11:17 AM

Posted by: Pistons Oct 13 2004, 12:07 PM

Posted by: Blue eyes Oct 13 2004, 12:54 PM

Still waiting on my copy to arrive in a couple of days, can't wait.

Can anybody please tell me which european magical traditions are covered in the book?

Posted by: Canid13 Oct 13 2004, 01:20 PM

I get that Rock Steady, but it means your spell list ends up with Manabolt 4, Manabolt 5, Manabolt 7, Stunbolt 5 and Stunball 7.

How what's the point of that?? Cos right now, I see no point in having to duplicate a spell. Why not just relearn it - pays your full Karma cost but save space on paper, and in your memory cos eventually there's gotta be a limit on what you can learn - no mechanic but it makes sense there would eventually be - we are talking the (meta)human brain here.

Posted by: Rock-Steady Oct 13 2004, 02:03 PM

Posted by: Canid13 Oct 13 2004, 02:24 PM

That's okay then :o)

With regards to the magic variants, there's hermietic druidism, druidism, Wicca, witches and a few others. Christian magic is also present, with a bit of info over and above what's in MITS.

One thing though, what's a Chaos Mage?

Posted by: Cochise Oct 13 2004, 02:26 PM

Chaos Mage: Special type of hermetic. Basis of his belief system is the chaos theory ...

Posted by: JongWK Oct 13 2004, 03:00 PM

Posted by: Artemus Oct 13 2004, 04:20 PM

Just got my copy yesterday. Absolutely loved the Adept Section. Can't see what's wrong with it - but I am an Adept fan so we'll leave it at that.

The Culture Shock section is very good. Especially the top ten lists. Can't believe no one mentioned Novatech's troubles thought that was a good advancement of the Art Dunkwalther plot.

I am still reading it, but so far what I read I like.

Posted by: Birdy Oct 13 2004, 05:15 PM

Posted by: Patrick Goodman Oct 13 2004, 05:31 PM

Posted by: Canid13 Oct 13 2004, 05:37 PM

It is appreciated, and most of us appreciate that you won't please us all the time, but least we're still here and playing the game :o) Course, more cyberware and bioware wouldn't go amiss :o)

Are there any game rules for Chaos Mages?

I'm reading on the Ork language now, but I'm glad the Laughing Man and Orange Queen have shown up in some of these, especially this section. And spell matrices.... whoa!

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 13 2004, 05:49 PM

Posted by: Canid13 Oct 13 2004, 05:54 PM

Agreed. I might not like magic on a personal level, but that doesn't stop me liking progress. There's nothing worse than a stale and static system :o)

Doesn't mean my own personal preference isn't for more cyberware and armour and guns and other 'mundane' tools of the shadow trade, but I can appreciate a good adept power just as much as the next guy.

Posted by: TheDude Oct 13 2004, 06:03 PM

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 13 2004, 06:07 PM

Indeed, that was a singularly unhelpful comment Birdy, and counterproductive to even your own "side" of the debate, if you were even on a side to begin. It's comments like those that make me want to reconsider my own. I'm beginning to think my comments were just as knee-jerk and stupid as his were.

Posted by: Critias Oct 13 2004, 06:12 PM

Meh, screw 'em. You can't keep everyone happy all the time -- mage players were bored by Man and Machine (and Cannon Companion), Riggers were the only ones likely to care too much about R-3, I still haven't even bothered to buy Matrix or Target: Matrix or whatever...they aren't just a series of adventures, they aren't just tailored for a specific target power level audience... they aren't just of interest to the riggers, deckers, gunbunnies, or mages. They're books about Shadowrun, not just about any one place or character.

Don't worry about the complainers. The SOTA books are the best books I've seen for SR in a long, long, time. The chapter breakdown is great, it gives a little bit of info on a lot of subjects (cops, adepts, unique magic, spy gadgets), which means there's something in there for everyone -- not even counting the chapter that really is there for everyone.

They're great books. '63 was a nice one, '64 is among my favorites, ever, for Shadowrun. The layout, artwork, you name it. It's not "THE ADEPT BOOK," by a long stretch. If anything, take solace in the fact that most people are only able to find one chapter to bitch about.

Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2004, 06:51 PM

i'll second that. i've been happier with the SOTA books than any other books SR has put out, pretty much since 3rd editon got going. Birdy's entitled to an opinion, of course, but it's not like players haven't been begging for new adept stuff since 2nd edition.

Posted by: audun Oct 13 2004, 07:11 PM

Posted by: Rock-Steady Oct 13 2004, 07:14 PM

I dont think there is an an rule in SOTA that says:

"YOU MUST USE ALL THIS RULES IN THIS BOOK OR YOU ARE DAMNED FOREVER!!!!!"

But there is a "rule" in the BBB that says:

"If you dont like th rules, dont use or change it."

Posted by: Birdy Oct 13 2004, 07:19 PM

Posted by: Birdy Oct 13 2004, 07:27 PM

Posted by: Tzeentch Oct 13 2004, 07:29 PM

Posted by: Birdy Oct 13 2004, 07:31 PM

Posted by: Artemus Oct 13 2004, 08:04 PM

I always fail to understand people that post the argument "I don't like this so SR developers should change it, so I feel better". If you don't like it don't use it. There's no need to go around complaining that your opinion is valid and the world should stop and pay attention to you.

Developers do a lot of work. Hours go into coming up with new ideas, testing them and balancing them with existing material. As well as making sure that you don't contradict yourself in the process. Comments that fall on the category I outlined above do nothing but piss off hard working people. In the end the book was not made just for you, it was made for EVERYONE.

In every book there's stuff I don't like and can't use, for example Matrix and Rigger content. I don't go around asking that nothing be developed for these character types. That would be unfair to the people that like playing riggers and deckers.

If you are going to voice your opinion, you can do it in a constructive and polite manner that will probably have a higher chance of being heard. "If you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all"

Posted by: krishcane Oct 13 2004, 08:13 PM

So now we have people complaining, people complaining that people are complaining, people complaining about the complainers complaining about the people complaining, and now I'm writing a post to complain about the complainers complaining about the complainers who complain about those who complain.

--K.

Posted by: Deacon Oct 13 2004, 08:19 PM

The problem with adepts, folks, is that when you boil the class down, it's a warrior with magic instead of cyberware. That's all. There's nothing keeping them from getting cyberware, in fact, except some piddling essence costs -- which can be easily pooh-poohed away with karma and Initiation. I've seen it myself, the fullborg with 0.056 essence -- and still has a Magic of 6. Isn't Initiation wonderful?

So, all those books for mundanes, solely for mundanes, strictly for mundanes -- you're wrong. They're for adepts too.

Which books are these, anyway? Ignore second edition, here; let's stop pretending that it's not been six years since the third edition was printed, so forget all about those books. We have Man & Machine -- which I just stated works as well for adepts as well as mundanes. We have Shadowrun Companion -- adepts can use Edges & Flaws just as well as mundanes. Then there's Cannon Companion, a book about firearms (pistol adepts and rifle adepts love this), martial arts (ditto for the martial art adepts), and more gear accessible to both mages and mundanes. SOTA63, which contains genetech, usable by both mages and mundanes. Matrix, which again is not solely for mundanes -- all a person really needs to run the Matrix is a cyberdeck and a datajack. Discounting Otaku, of course. What book am I missing? Oh yes, Magic in the Shadows, a book solely for the mages and adepts.

And then we have SOTA64, with a chapter, again, solely for the adepts. This is what you call fair? An entire book, and a chapter of a second book, meant for only part of the characters in the game?

This is why I want to see cyberware that screws with magic. Maybe it fiddles with creative thought, and magic being as much an art as a science, can't deal with it. It could have come from the research into cybermancy -- oh, and don't get me started there. A whole subsect of mundanes that require magical support? Don't tell me that's solely for the mundanes. Cyberware that's partially cybermantic in certain respects, that forces a magician to sacrifice a large part of his magic but leaves mundanes alone, that would be something nice to have.

Until we actually have a book that says 'Sorry magicians, This Is Not For You', leave the whole issue alone. And don't think your game is typical of the rest of us playing Shadowrun. You might be in a game where karma and nuyen is hard to come by. But I've seen games where karma and nuyen come in bucketloads, almost. Games where adepts don't have problems finding the magic groups, where they don't have problems scraping together the nuyen for a smartlink, and where the fullborg adept not only exists, but thrives on his all-Betaware cyberlimbs and Increase Reflexes 3 power.

***EDIT*** Okay, I forgot about Rigger 3 Revised, which contains a lot of content for riggers, including adepts who went and got a Vehicle Control Rig level 1 -- which, given the cost, can be had at Beta-grade for less than a hundred K, and with a good cyberdoc, can be had for only 1 point of essence loss. I've seen it. Don't tell me this book is for mundanes only, either.

Posted by: mfb Oct 13 2004, 08:28 PM

Posted by: Synner Oct 13 2004, 08:30 PM

Your argument and points are duly noted. Not being a fan of pervasive magic in SR I found myself in the odd position of co-authoring the two magic-related chapters of this particular book. Why? Several reasons stand out.

Firstly while I'm not a fan of adding more powerful abilities, I am all for providing more options, variety and depth of background for people to play with. New options do not necessarily equal more power or even tip the power balance in the game.

Second, I felt playable magic for both adepts and magicians needed some fresh ideas and variety.A lot of people complained that MitS was too crunchy and had little actual fluff. But most importantly a lot of the people complaining seem to forget that besides MitS all the other core rule books are tech-related (M&M, CC, Rigger3, Matrix). In fact, the only new magic introduced during the SR3 run post-MitS have been the odds and ends at the back of Target: Awakened Lands, Target: Wastelands and SOTA63 (something like 5 new metamagics, 6 new spells and 4 new adept powers total). Which IMHO is pretty insignificant compared to the hardware and bits and pieces added in those and other books - the Merc chapter of SOTA63 introduces no less than 38 pieces of tech gear and vehicles; the Genetech chapter introduces 15+ items and processes; and SSG introduces 10 pieces of sundry everyday equipment).

As Dude has mentioned above, Adepts in particular were the least developed character type since they appeared back in SR1 (to put this in perspective SOTA64 has almost as many pages dedicated to Adepts as all previous books, regardless of edition, combined). There was a huge demand for Adept stuff as testified by the numerous netbook projects, the discussions on fan forums in at least 3 different languages AND the number of mails FanPro got asking for more adept stuff.

As to EuroMagic, I really suggest you check the chapter out again. Does it increase the presence of magic? Does it make it more powerful? Or does it simply provide more specialization options to mages and shamans by delving deeper into the stuff that was barely touched upon in MitS. It adds a couple of minor rules that actually make some previously mentioned traditions truly unique, all the while keeping them balanced rather than just making them a bigger, better, more upgrade.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for adding more variety and depth to the tech available to players as much as I was to adept abilities. I fully believe SOTA65 is likely to include updates to Matrix, Bio and Cyber. It's just a question of time. But right now I thoroughly disagree that magic is getting too attention.

And just for reference, despite bad turn out at RatCon SR sales in Germany have been above average with every release this year.

Posted by: Birdy Oct 13 2004, 08:42 PM

Posted by: Deacon Oct 13 2004, 08:45 PM

More options is always good, and I've seen that the adept powers in SOTA64 aren't anything special. The only thing I object to is this misconception that mundanes have their own books, and magicians have theirs. As I've pointed out, everything a mundane has access to, a magician can use as well.

But it doesn't work out the same way, in reverse.

THAT is where the inequity lies in the system. If we had more options for the mundanes that were denied to the magicians, then we'd start seeing a balance come back to the game. Personally, I don't see why the rule about magic interfering with decking abilities was removed, but as I've said before, it's Shadowrun, rules make reality and rules change.

Posted by: Deacon Oct 13 2004, 08:48 PM