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Posted by: Cable Oct 12 2004, 12:31 PM

My group and I own a libray of shadowrun source from 2nd and 3rd ed. But furthermore, all of our Rifts, White Wolf, Star Trek, Star Wars (d6&d20) and D&D 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Edtion books ARE ALL FINE. The SR books want to fall apart!!! Is this universal?

Posted by: RangerJoe Oct 12 2004, 12:53 PM

Are your SR books softcover and the other games hardcover? I've found my BBB in particular has begun a serious program of autodefoliation.

Posted by: Botch Oct 12 2004, 01:03 PM

I can testify that should never spill anti-freeze on your books unless you like the pages to have the consistantcy of tissue paper.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 12 2004, 01:24 PM

My books have weathered just fine. BBB front cover fell off, but all other pages are in good shape.

~J

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 12 2004, 01:25 PM

I've always been extremely careful with my SR3, because of all the stories I've heard, but it is now split in half 4/5ths of the way. The pages aren't coming off, the spine has simply split between pages 174 - 175.

Posted by: Cable Oct 12 2004, 01:29 PM

All the SR books are softcover, as are most of my books. But onl;y the SR ones want to explode. Maybe to much creativity is crammed into them.

Posted by: Johnson Oct 12 2004, 01:38 PM

Well My SR3 if going in for its third rebinding soon as the pages are falling out again. My Source books are still in good nik.

Posted by: Nylan Oct 12 2004, 01:39 PM

yeah...mine definately have begun falling apart. BBB in particular: pages falling out. I'm trying really carefully not to have them tear in half or anything, but that binding is such crap

Posted by: Lindt Oct 12 2004, 01:54 PM

I just coughed up the 8 bucks and had my BBB laminated and sprial bound. Picking CC, MitS, R3r, MM, and Matrix up from Kinkos later this week. I figure if I can spend 30 bucks on a book, I can spend a little extra and make it last forever and most importantly, lay flat! Besides, when you end up buying books that get used 1/100th as much, and pay 4-5 times more, it dosent seem that bad...

Posted by: Cochise Oct 12 2004, 01:58 PM

Posted by: betageek Oct 12 2004, 02:28 PM

Most of the books have fallen apart, so it's gotten to the point with new ones that, after I read them once or twice, I cut the bind. Not too bad, considering I work part time in a print shop and I can do all the rebinding myself pretty cheap. I wish I didn't have to, but it's worth it in the end...

Posted by: twofalls Oct 12 2004, 02:40 PM

Huh, I haven't had to rebind anything. I gave my SR3 book to my best friend and purchased a new one recently as it was rather "used" and he couldn't afford to get a copy of the book. I have a majority of what has been printed for the game, and the books that get used a lot are rather weathered.

When Wizkids purchased the game did they aqurie licence to all the old material? Seems to me that they could make some money refitting the old modules to 3rd ed and reprinting them. Has there been an official line on this from the company?

Posted by: Rock-Steady Oct 12 2004, 03:33 PM

The only book where i experience that problem is "Prime Runners". All others are fine.

Posted by: Clyde Oct 12 2004, 03:35 PM

What procedures do you guys use to rebind your books? Is it something that can be done without too much effort/money? My Matrix and MitS have been losing pages and it's driving me nuts.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Oct 12 2004, 03:38 PM

I went to a library and had mine repaired for a modest fee, 5 dollars.

Posted by: bit_buckethead Oct 12 2004, 03:46 PM

They all are falling apart. I am on my second BBB. The first one came apart within two weeks. I have taking to having my books spiral bound at one of the major office supply houses for about $5. If they do it right it lasts forever, but boy if they do it wrong it is a mess.

Posted by: twofalls Oct 12 2004, 03:59 PM

"BBB"? Time to dislay a little of my ignorance about the acronyms used around here...

Posted by: Lindt Oct 12 2004, 04:00 PM

Big Black Book. Aka SR3, or the main book.

Posted by: twofalls Oct 12 2004, 05:21 PM

Ah, thanks.

Posted by: BookWyrm Oct 12 2004, 05:35 PM

About 95% of my SR books are softcover, and only really read through once, then shelved or otherwise put away for fast reference or preservation. I also pick up large magazine bags at my local comic shop to preserve them better.
I only open them enough to read, I do not lay them out & smooth out the bindings to make them flat. I try to preserve their intergety as much as possible while still enjoying them. Comic collecting has taught me that.

Posted by: CirclMastr Oct 12 2004, 05:36 PM

I can't believe somebody admitted to pirating the books in this forum.

Posted by: Cable Oct 12 2004, 05:39 PM

I knew I wasn't alone with this problem.

Posted by: Ezra Oct 12 2004, 06:16 PM

After my groups SR2 books died a horrible death involving tape and good wishes, I decided to fix that hassle with my 3rd ed stuff. Now I get the books I want, put them in a bag, and leave them. Then I use Plastic Rat's stuff.

Posted by: Ombre Oct 12 2004, 07:06 PM

Sorry , les gars, but I've been collecting Sr books since 1991 from 1st ed to the latest Fanpro books and I'v never had any problems whatsoever. Of courser, as Bookwyrm said, I am a book-freak and I would never flatten a book out to avoird damaging spine and binding. All my books are in pristine condition but I'm the only one reading them, some of my players having their own copies of the BBB (at least, the second ed BBB)...

Posted by: Sabosect Oct 12 2004, 07:43 PM

I've only had mine a week and one page is wanting to come out already. Soon, I'll buy a new copy and stick it in storage.

Posted by: Necro Tech Oct 12 2004, 08:54 PM

I actually have everybook from every edition and only my Matrix book is falling apart. Since I have been hauling my books to various game sites once a week for the last 15 years I consider myself extremely lucky.

Posted by: Catsnightmare Oct 12 2004, 09:26 PM

My BBB lost the archatype insterts within 6 months. The rest of it is still holding together but only just barely.
Man & Machine got little bit of Mt Dew leaked onto the spine a year ago and it's pages are falling out one by one in straight numerical order now.

Posted by: John Campbell Oct 12 2004, 09:34 PM

My SR2 hardback has turned into more of a cardboard folder containing loose paper, but that's the only one that I'd say hasn't held up to wear the way it should. The back cover's starting to come off my SR3 corebook (tearing along the seam), but I think that's more a matter of my abusing it too much than any manufacturing defect.

Posted by: Artemus Oct 12 2004, 11:02 PM

I have treated my books pretty well, but wear still shows. My Corporate Download wanted to lose a couple of pages before I just used some tape on the bind and it seems to be holding for now (of course I don't open it up as much).

I think as long as you don't fully open the book and treat it with care it should last a long time. Still just opening and closing the books tend to wear and tear the covers. My M&M started to peel a plastic film it has over it. Before anyone asks the M&M is the latest printing.

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 12 2004, 11:10 PM

For about $6, Kinko's will "spine cut" and "spiral bind" a SR3 book. I was so pleased with mine, that I also had it done to the following pairs of books:
CC and MM
MITS and Shadowrun Companion

At one point I had three of these four in the same binding, but it was too big to use easily. I paid to rebind them with only two per binding.

I had the same done with my son's SR3, but since the edges were so worn I had an "Edge Cut" (About $1.50 each) done on top, right, and bottom. Now his looks almost new, because of the crisp page edges, it's just a little smaller.

With the spiral bind, you can open the book completely flat, or even fold it backwards to leave it open to a single page. It's wonderful.

If you have it done with more than one book, ask for black wire on one, and white wire on another. I have trouble distinguishing between my three spirial-bound books.

Posted by: Siege Oct 12 2004, 11:14 PM

$3.95 for bound books without a cover, $4.95 with.

+ $1 for any book greater than one inch.

I'm supposed to be checking if I can find slip covers in bulk for a decent rate, but I haven't had any luck thus far.

A personal testimonial about the Kinko's binding process is always good to hear.

-Siege

Posted by: iPad Oct 12 2004, 11:23 PM

Ive only noticed ED rule books fall to pieces....

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 12 2004, 11:34 PM

http://ourteam.home.comcast.net/random/SRbound.jpg (20 KB) of my Kinko's bindings.

It is so useful, I now bind my frequently-used books, even if they are not falling apart.

Posted by: BookWyrm Oct 13 2004, 12:28 AM

I know how easy it is to lose track of a binding's status until last moment. I have a copy of GURPS-Supers Wild Cards which had to be replaced, mostly due to my endless re-referencing it while I reread the entire novel series. Fortunately, I found a replacement on Ebay.

Posted by: Wutasumi Oct 13 2004, 12:30 AM

I treat my books like shit. I won't deny it, my players paw through them, I paw through them, I don't keep them on the bookshelves, I keep the page by putting the open book like this /-\ on the table.

And yet, my binding hasn't gone ONCE on any of my books.

Posted by: Artemus Oct 13 2004, 12:56 AM

@OurTeam: those bindings look good. I might have to take a look at that.

@Wutasumi: Nice, but as far as this thread you seem to be the exception not rule.

Posted by: Wutasumi Oct 13 2004, 01:00 AM

I know, I just thought it was weird.

I might pick up those bindngs from Kinkos, because they look pretty cool.

Posted by: Vera53 Oct 13 2004, 01:08 AM

I chose yes, but only a couple of mine are actually falling apart. Even that is too much for me.

Posted by: Cable Oct 13 2004, 02:51 AM

Wow, thanks OurTeam. That's probably the best idea I've ever heard. Thanks guys, this is why I posted this thread.

Posted by: Bane Oct 13 2004, 03:25 AM

What OurTeam did is exactly what I do with my books, right down to the type of binding. That and lamination helps a bunch.

I have the added benefit of being really, really anal and obsessive about how my books are treated. My bindings are all fine.

Posted by: Blaze Oct 13 2004, 10:38 AM

In my library of SR books the only two that are showing severe problems are the BBB and Matrix- both of which I loaned out to two of my players. Of course, it probably helps being an English grad with a thing for keeping books in good nick in the first place...

-JH.

Posted by: synfaktor Oct 17 2004, 04:17 PM

mine fall apart all the time. i think it more a testament of how i treat them rather than a manufacturing defect, though i live in arizona and the heat can go through the glue in under an hour so i have to be careful about not leaving them in the car.

i just replaced my SR3 BBB and it has only been opened three times, but is already losing a good chunk out of the center.

looks like kinkos will be getting some of my business afterall

Posted by: S7Michelle Oct 18 2004, 02:45 AM

I treat all my gaming books the same, and most of them have held together just fine. The BBB is the one of two game books that have tried to lose pages. And it went bad after less than two weeks.

I ended up doing the Kinko binding, and its working much better now.

Posted by: toturi Oct 18 2004, 03:14 AM

My BBB, SSG and MitS are all going to pieces on me, MitS worse of all. I can't believe SSG pages are actually falling out, I have only given it a cursory read unlike BBB or MitS.

Posted by: The White Dwarf Oct 18 2004, 08:26 AM

Several of mine are at the point where I cannot open it to certain pages without losing another page. SR3 skill section will lose pages if I crack it there, as will Matrix in two spots. A few others are very close to going, M&M is about to have pages fall out, as is CC. I treat all my books very well, even catching a little criticims from the fellow players when I take care to say "dont use that to write on" or "dont toss it around" etc. Its definatly how theyre made not how theyre treated.

Posted by: Herr Nebel Oct 18 2004, 10:08 AM

My books (most in german and 3 in english) are all fine except my german M&M, it lost the second page.

Posted by: Dashifen Oct 18 2004, 01:43 PM

I did the Kinko's thing for SR3, M&M, CC, MitS, R3, and Matrix and it's fantastic. The only thing that I did was to take colored tape and put colored markings on the top ring of the spiral bind so that I can tell them apart while they're on the shelf. Granted, I had to memoriaze which colors went with which books but that didn't take too long since it wasn't my whole library

Posted by: Fygg Nuuton Oct 18 2004, 08:14 PM

Posted by: twofalls Oct 21 2004, 04:54 PM

I purchased Matrix less than two weeks ago and the pages are falling out. I keep my books in great condition and this ticks me off. I'm going to have it reboud, but having to pay more money to keep a book that I just purchased together bothers me.

Posted by: mfb Oct 21 2004, 05:00 PM

yeah, the first-printing Matrix book is notoriously bad. mine lost a page the first time i opened it.

Posted by: Feonyx Oct 21 2004, 05:33 PM

I find the color (glossy) pages in my BBB are all falling out, but the others are fine. It might have something to do with players trying to decide what to play or it might have to do with the glue not being able to get a good grip on the spine.

Feonyx

Posted by: Joe Outside Oct 23 2004, 08:18 AM

I rebind my books myself the day after I bind them. I got a bunch (in excess of 100) three-ring binders real cheap a while back, so I raze off the spine, three-hole-punch the pages, add hole reinforcers to the first and last ten pages, and voila. Works quite well, but it gets really heavy.

Posted by: paul_HArkonen Oct 23 2004, 02:24 PM

My personal ones are falling apart as we write. However, our GM's books, the one who has most of his books from back when FASA was printing them, are in perfect condition.

Posted by: Sabosect Oct 23 2004, 03:56 PM

I've been trying to keep mine together using the same materials, but the hobbits run away screaming when I tell them how I want them to help.

That aside, I find the smaller books are holding together much better, despite the level of treatment. They should use hardbacks for the bigger books.

Posted by: Cable Oct 25 2004, 09:57 PM

Just to round off my poll. My group and I have several books now spiral bound. THIS IS THE WAY TO GO. But, its also the last step. The binding is cut far in and the only thing left to do is to buy new books...


Be careful

Posted by: Botch Oct 26 2004, 01:00 PM

Somebody is bound to have asked this question from various sources, but I have an option to digitise all my SR books for free at work with a duplex scanner. What are the ramifications of doing this? Before anybody asks, they are for my personal use only and I will not be putting them anywhere near P2P, I am just plain fed up with lugging a 3ft stack of books around that fall apart when you start using them for their intended purpose.

Posted by: Siege Oct 26 2004, 08:26 PM

I think you violate the copyright when you transfer the creative material from format to format.

When you transfer the written material to an e-format, for example, it's in violation of the copyright and therefore illegal.

I think.

That said, I think the police have better things to do than to kick in your door and confiscate your books - just don't hand them out if you want to support the company that actually produces SR. That is, however, entirely up to you.

-Siege

Posted by: tisoz Nov 7 2004, 06:30 PM

Posted by: KarmaInferno Nov 7 2004, 07:09 PM

Posted by: Eddy_Munster Nov 7 2004, 07:49 PM

A quick question to those who have had this re=binding done at Kinko's. Does this include having the pages laminated and then spiral bound?

Posted by: Kanada Ten Nov 7 2004, 07:51 PM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 7 2004, 07:53 PM

Posted by: Stumps Nov 7 2004, 07:56 PM

It's sad and interesting to note that it's listed as "GM's only" and "Players only".

It tells me that the amount of groups who have only one GM is getting larger.
That's sad.

And yeah, I finally went electronic for now since I'm on the move so much with the military.
Plus...I'm finding Acrobat to be a seriously bad-ass way to keep track of stuff you care about in the book (as well as rewrite things you don't like)

Posted by: Kanada Ten Nov 7 2004, 07:59 PM

Posted by: Stumps Nov 7 2004, 08:01 PM

True...I'm just always sadened when it hits into a laid out assumption that groups have GM's and Players seperated rather than united to work together to account an interesting story.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 7 2004, 08:05 PM

You totally lost me on that one, Stumps.

Out of the 132 people who have voted thus far, only 6 have voted in the "only" categories. That's less than 5% of the voters, and even that doesn't necessarily mean they only have one GM... it just means that players are blaming their GM(s) on the condition of the books, or vice-versa.

Posted by: Stumps Nov 7 2004, 08:16 PM

btw...there's an easy answer to all these books falling apart.

Get one of these:
http://candles.genwax.com/candle_mainimage_vendor/P0574741b.jpg

Then do this:
http://www.lib.cam.ac.uk/marginalia/P6110076.JPG (but much nicer with the knife)

Get some of these:
http://www.botron.com/functions/functions/images/B7406WEBLG.jpg

And one of these:
http://www.meditape.com/pix/photo_ringbinder_lg.jpg

And reassemble it nicely with little guick tabs like these:
http://www.euroffice.co.uk/euro_img/thumb/T197396.jpg

Posted by: Stumps Nov 7 2004, 08:17 PM

Alright...I'll take it back.

I just didn't like seeing the seperation.
I'll go back to being my normal republican self as I suck at being liberal.

Posted by: Mr.Cato Nov 7 2004, 09:12 PM

I only had my SR1 softcover and my SR2 hardcover fall completely apart...

Think the books are normaly allright quality

Posted by: Crimsondude 2.0 Nov 7 2004, 10:16 PM

Posted by: Stumps Nov 7 2004, 10:21 PM

LOL
I hadn't even looked at the text itself...that's great! Thanks for the laugh...I needed that.

Posted by: Deamon_Knight Nov 7 2004, 10:51 PM

Stumps, not a flame, but have you actually TRIED to put a whole BBB in sleeves and bind them in a 3 ring binder? I did. Imagine tripling the size of the BBB, not to mention finding a 3 ring binder to fit in all in. It becomes really unwieldy at that size, I finally just got the covers laminated and spiral bound at kinkos, $14 all told. I think that ends up being the best solution.