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Posted by: JaronK Oct 24 2004, 09:04 PM

The whole skillwires thing is a bit confusing for me. What kind do I need to get if I want to use Rating 6 Activesofts? For example, I want to be able to slot Biotech 6. What kind of skillwires do I need? Also, can I store the information in memory, freeing up the chipjack for another skill, or at least not needing the chip while it's in memory?

JaronK

Posted by: mfb Oct 24 2004, 09:07 PM

when you purchase a skillwire system, you choose a maximum rating and a maximum Mp. the total value of all of your currently-running skillsofts cannot exceed the max rating; the total Mp of all your currently-running skillsofts cannot exceed the max Mp.

skillsofts can be accessed through a chipjack, datajack, or stored in headware memory.

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 24 2004, 10:41 PM

A Rating 6 Active Skillsoft requires 108 MP of memory. See program size table on SR3 p. 223, use the Multiplier 3 column for General Skills, and Multiplier 2 column for Specializations. If you only want to use specializations in your skillwires, you can get by with a 72 MP system.

Skillwires 6 to handle 108 MP memory skills costs 324,000 resources at character generation. You need it with this rating and handling size regardless of where the skill program is stored.

You also need a Chipjack (SR3 page 298) or a Multi-Slot Chipjack (Man and Machine page 22), or enough headware memory to hold the data from the Skill Chip and a connection (typically through the Datajack you use to load the headware memory) from the headware memory to the skill wire system.

You can also get a Chipjack Expert Driver ("CED") from Man and Machine page 19 so that when using a skill chip in the Chipjack you get an extra pool of dice.

Most people feel that to use two rating 6 chips at once, you need a rating 6 skillwire system with 216 MP of memory (648,000 cost), but a few feel you need a rating 12 system with that much memory. I believe the correct answer is Rating 6 with 216MP. That is also what NSRCG uses.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 24 2004, 10:51 PM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 24 2004, 11:07 PM

Except in that case you now need an ASIST rating of 12 on your Skillwires.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 24 2004, 11:18 PM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 24 2004, 11:20 PM

I didn't say Optimized chips were a bad idea. You were the one saying you could run two Rating 6 Optimized 'softs (which demand ASIST 6/Pulse 54) on the same skillwires (the aforementioned ASIST 6/Pulse 108 'wires). You can't. Optimization only affects the Pulse demand.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 24 2004, 11:27 PM

Did you read the post I was referencing? You know, the one I quoted?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 24 2004, 11:33 PM

Yep. But there's no question to it at all and it doesn't change anything I wrote. The rules are quite clear and, once again, NSRCG is flawed. Don't believe me, pick up the book and read.

SR3 p. 108, Skillwires: "When purchased, choose a maximum total MP and maximum skillsoft rating for the system; these determine the total rating and total size of all the activesofts a character can use at one time."

It's not a matter of interpretation. It's a matter of black-and-white English.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 24 2004, 11:48 PM

The main reason to have skillwires with a greater pulse (Mp) rating than ASIST rating is for when you have lots of money to spend on programming options. In particular, the Pluscode, Customization, and DIMAP options allow you to run higher-rating skillsofts without taking up as high an ASIST rating.

Posted by: Deamon_Knight Oct 25 2004, 12:11 AM

So, let me ask a related question:Are there any hard and fast rules for what skills requires Skillwires and an activesoft and what can be done with only a chipjack (or headware memory and knowsoft link) and a skillsoft/lingual soft? Languages, obviously, and pure reference data, but how does on draw the line of what can be an activesoft and a knowsoft? is it entirely up to the GM, or does it depend on the linked attribute, or something else?

I ask primarily because it seems that skills like B/R skills, linked to INT, should (intuitively) be a knowsoft, and say pistols, must be an activesoft; but if this is so, balance wise B/R skills would be so useful and easy to come by, (Esp. once expert jacks and/or multislot chipjacks are included) it would make far more sense to ONLY ever by skillsofts.

Am I completely misreading what knowsofts can do or am I missing some big downside?

Posted by: toturi Oct 25 2004, 12:19 AM

Simple enough. Active Skills - Activesofts. Knowledge Skills - Knowsofts.

Posted by: Deamon_Knight Oct 25 2004, 12:56 AM

Can you tell where it says that Toturi? I can't remember seeing it spelled out that clearly.

That would indicate to me that knowsofts (and the realted hardware short of skillwires) were really quite useless. Its seems rare that you would make a direct test with only a knowledge skill. (Still waving nOOb pennant though!)

And, while that is pretty straightforward, it seems counter-intuitive that repairing a cabinet, or fixing a blunt blade, would require THAT much more than "known" (as opposed to raw *datasoft*) data.

Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 25 2004, 01:13 AM

Try page 295, SR3, under skillsofts.

Posted by: toturi Oct 25 2004, 01:15 AM

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 25 2004, 01:17 AM

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 25 2004, 01:30 AM

Not only that, but they're also great for Complimentary skills, too.

Posted by: mmu1 Oct 25 2004, 02:03 AM

This is going off on a tangent, but isn't actually buying rating 6 skillwires a pretty bad idea?

The price doesn't scale up linearly, so the jump in price from rating 5 to 6 is a lot more than that extra die is worth, especially considering how absurdly cheap a rating 3 expert driver is...

Hell, rating 3 skillwires with a rating 3 ECD cost next to nothing in terms of money and Essence, and can give you 6 dice in dozens of skills (as long as you're not relying on them for combat) for the money you'd spend on a rating 6 system and handful of skillsofts. Or am I missing something?

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 25 2004, 02:07 AM

Your not missing anything, mmu1.

Posted by: JaronK Oct 25 2004, 02:33 AM

Well, you could always get Rating 6 skillwires and a Rating 3 Chipjack Driver. Then you've got 9 dice to roll in any skill, which is amazing for many purposes. The character I'm playing around with is called Wildcard, a street sam who just slots whatever he needs. He has Assault Rifles 6 and Pistols 6, as well as computers 6, but not much else. I gave him an Encephalon, R6 wires, R3 Driver, and Enhanced Articulation, so in theory he can throw 9 dice at any skill he can get a chip for, plus 1 extra if it's an intelligence skill (like biotech), and 1 extra die if it's one of the many areas EA helps. Not bad.

JaronK

Posted by: mmu1 Oct 25 2004, 03:02 AM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 25 2004, 04:59 AM

I've found Skillwires with ASIST 3/Pulse 13 to be the most efficient ones to get. Couple it with a Chipjack Expert Driver 3, a Chipjack, your choice of Headware Memory or a cyberlimb with a few thousand MPs of DNI-controlled Memory (0 Essence, 3 nuyen per Mp, and 0.5 ECU per 1,000 Mp), and a Datajack to act as a router and you're set. Throw on some Enhanced Articulation if you plan on using them with acceptable skills, and it gets even better.

You'll only be able to run Optimized or Customized ActiveSofts that way, but with a Customized ActiveSoft with an ASIST rating of 3 (skill level of 4), the CED, and Articulation and you're rolling 5 dice on every test and up to 8 when using the CED's Task Pool. That's not bad at all, even with secondary combat 'softs. If you upgrade the 'wires to ASIST 6/Pulse 26, get another CED and Chipjack (or go Multi), you can even run two of them simultaneously.

To avoid a long rant, note that some people get their knickers in a twist about Chipjack Expert Drivers, Routers, and Memory. If such is the case with you, just use a Skillsoft Jukebox. It's exactly the same difference -- the only change is you have to carry the computer around rather than using one you had installed.

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 25 2004, 05:16 AM

Actually instead of upgrading the ASIST *and* the Pulse rating, you could save Essence by just upgrading the Pulse rating (a simpler operation as well, as you don't have to remove/install cyberware) and rewriting your activesofts with one or two levels of Pluscode. That way you can even have up to three of them running at once, though the pulse rating and the cost of the activesofts would be quite high by this point.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 25 2004, 05:17 AM

It's significantly cheaper in the long run to upgrade the 'wires. Well, unless Essence is a major, major issue for the character or only plan on having two or three 'softs ever.

Besides, how often do you really need to use three different skills all at the same time? And even if you do, why are you relying entirely on the Skillwire system for all of them?

Posted by: Spookymonster Oct 25 2004, 01:44 PM

If you're looking for rock-bottom prices, don't forget Used cyberware. Some Betaware Skillwires(3), a multi-slot chipjack(4), and a CED(3) can all be had for ~1 Essence point. While it doesn't eliminate the potential danger of a stress check, it does make it a fairly rare occurrence.

Posted by: Nine-9 Oct 25 2004, 02:28 PM

chipjack expert drivers are horribly broken pieces of kit, so abuse the hell out of them if your GM allows it. Combine with enhanced articulation for extra cheap fun

Posted by: JaronK Oct 25 2004, 06:12 PM

Okay, after re-reading the rules, I think I've got it, but let me know if this all works. I've got Rating 6 skillwires (the character is based around chipping, so I went all out), Rating 3 CED, and Enhanced Articulation, plus a 1000mp Optical chip in a cyberhand. Let's say for the moment I have three activesofts: Athletics 6, Drive Motorcycle 6, and Demolitions 6. I'm trying to escape a building by running to my bike.

I've got some explosives planted in the building already, and I've got all three activesofts loaded into memory (which took one simple action per load, but that happened earlier). The gaurds spot me as I'm on my way out and start shooting, and I've got demolitions active, so I remotely blow up the explosives (using 9 dice, 6 from the skill and 3 from the CED... or perhaps should I have made that roll when I planted them, and maybe got the Articulation bonus as well? No matter). This distracts the gaurds, so now I want to run for the bike. I use a free action to swap out demolitions for athletics, and throw 9 dice to increase my running speed (I don't really think EA would help for running). There's a fence I need to jump, and my task pool is being used for running, so I can throw 6 dice to jump the fence. Then I get to my bike. I swap out the athletics for drive bike as a free action, plug in my data jack, and drive out of there.

Had my athletics and drive bike chips had pluscode rating 3 and been optomized, I wouldn't even have needed to swap between the two.

Is this all how it works?

JaronK

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 25 2004, 06:17 PM

On a cursory exam, it looks spot on. I'd have to double check some of the numbers, but they look right to me at the moment.

The only problem is how you're handling Demolitions which has nothing to do with the 'wires. Demolitions is used when setting the bomb... you don't need it to detonate it. That's just a matter of pushing a button.

Posted by: tj333 Oct 25 2004, 07:05 PM

Just wondering what book has the optimized and customized skillsofts in it?
And what book has the ASSISt and pulse rules for sillwires?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 25 2004, 07:06 PM

Cannon Companion. ASIST is just a fancy word for "Skillsoft rating" and Pulse is a fancy word for "Mp rating."

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 25 2004, 07:26 PM

And if you ever confuse the two, remember that "Pulse rating" can also be read as "Megapulse rating"

Posted by: Fortune Oct 26 2004, 03:02 AM

Why would you think that EA wouldn't help with running?

Posted by: JaronK Oct 26 2004, 07:19 PM

I always thought of enhanced articulation giving finer muscle control. This would be very useful when working with electronics, trying to make an acurate gunshot, etc. I don't see how it would help with doing windsprints.

JaronK

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 26 2004, 07:26 PM

A swifter, more graceful stride would doubtlessly help. I dare say it would help more with running than it would with typing or piloting a submarine.

Posted by: The White Dwarf Oct 27 2004, 07:12 AM

Theres 3 values to skillwires. The rating, asist, and pulse.

The rating value is the max rating the wires can run a single skill at, and is used in the essence cost of the 'wires. So if you wanted to run rating 6 'softs the system would be 1.2 essence base.

The asist rating is the total ratings of the skills that can be run on the 'wires. So if you wanted to run 2 rating 3 'softs, and a rating 5 'soft, youd need an asist rating of 11 on the 'wires. This value is used in the 'wires cost calculation.

The pulse rating is the total number of mp worth of 'softs you can run on the 'wires. So in the above example, you would need (27+27+75) 129 pulse. This value is also used in the 'wires cost.

They seem powerful at first but really, with the costs of the system and the skills, its not. The only really applicable use for most characters is a rated 3 system with a rating 3 CED, allowing 6 dice at single tests or a few uses of 4 dice a round (like firing backup weapons during a round before the CED pool refreshes). Remember you *cannot* use any dice pools with jacked skills (task, combat, hacking, control, etc).

A character that actually invests enough into the system to consistently run multiple high level skills, bringing it to a level of possible imbalance, is not going to be doing much else. Theyll have little nuyen and essnence left to fit anything else, and being able to buy skills makes using karma less important. It leads to boring characters if pulled off, and quite frankly after running the numbers I dont even see that happening with the default character generation rules. If they actually manage to build up to it in game, more power to the player with the dedication to pull it off.

Posted by: tjn Oct 27 2004, 07:20 AM

Posted by: Fortune Oct 27 2004, 07:24 AM

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Oct 27 2004, 07:49 AM

Posted by: JaronK Oct 27 2004, 09:01 AM

Okay, so I'm not fully sure of what you're allowed to do with a chipped skill (let's ignore DINAP for now).

1) Can you default to it? Let's say I have Drive Car loaded and I want to use a bike. Can I default to my drive car chipped skill?

2) Can I use cyberware task pools other than the CED? I'm thinking basically encephalon for biotec tests here.

3) Can I use them as complimentary skills, and use complimentary skills on them? If I've got Ettiquette 6 chipped and I'm also using a knowsoft with Psychology 6 loaded up, can I use Psychology to throw 6 complimentary dice at an ettiequette test?

JaronK

Posted by: Johnson Oct 27 2004, 09:15 AM

Question 1

Car Chip is for Car. If the car Skill defaults to Bike you are going to have a problem. The Chip overrides the neural system with the chipped code for car.
Depending on the flexibility of the skillwires, comes a debat.
Car Skill Chipped cannot be used for Default, you would have to go to Reaction.

Question 2

Not going to comment--- not sufficent knowledge here.


Question 3
Good question. I have been looking at that myself. Yes you Etiquette would have the Psychology as a complemetary.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 27 2004, 02:46 PM

1) You are completely free to default with skillsofts. For all intents and purposes, skillsofts "teach" you the skill for as long as you have it activated. You suffer all the penalties for defaulting when you do so, however, just like you would if you possessed the skill. That's the point.

2) Only with DIMAP softs.

3) You can use them in almost any fashion you normally could, including as part of a Complimentary Test if appropriate.

Posted by: JaronK Oct 27 2004, 04:42 PM

So really, the only disadvantage to chipped skills is that no kind of pool other than the CED works with them? Well, the essence cost and nuyen cost to install the system and buy the chips, of course, also counts. But once you've done that, they're just like normal skills except for the pool thing, and only the CED counts it's pool for them?

JaronK

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 27 2004, 04:53 PM

For the most part, yes. Don't underestimate the lack of a dice pool or the costs, though, even for low-rated 'wires.

Posted by: JaronK Oct 27 2004, 05:02 PM

Well, for some skills it hurts (especially combat skills, computer, and rigging skills). But for most others it's very helpful. With Wildcard, he can throw 9 dice at tests like ettiquette and B/R skills, which is great. Of course, I could only afford Wired 1 in him, but he's an amazing jack of all trades, and master of some (social skills, B/R skills, and anything else that doesn't normally have an associated pool).

JaronK

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 27 2004, 05:09 PM

While I like the concept of skillsofts, their execution is broken. I have a pretty simple but detailed set of house rules to make skillwires and skillsofts more balanced and playable, but there's little point in describing them because they are, as mentioned, house rules.

Posted by: Fortune Oct 27 2004, 05:37 PM

I absolutely despise the idea of chipped Social skills!

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Oct 27 2004, 05:39 PM

Me too. The rest seem okay to me, but I really don't like chipped social skills. Languages are okay, though.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 27 2004, 05:42 PM

I dislike 'em as presented, but the concept is sound. It's no different from temporarily learning any other skill. I think the biggest problem people have with skillwires is that they are of the firm belief that the 'wires and the 'softs are doing all the work... and that's just silly in my opinion. Well, that and the fact that you can perform skills beyond what a real person can (which is one of the things I fixed in my rules). But again, that's just my opinion so it means bumpkin.

The real problem with Social Skills in general is that your natural Charisma rarely has any impact when dealing with others. If it played a larger role (which is true of most skills, truth be told) things would not only make more sense, but it would be more believable to boot.

Posted by: JaronK Oct 29 2004, 01:17 AM

Okay, here's an oddball one. Let's say my character has two cyber spurs. He has the skill Cyber Implant Combat 6, but then he takes a chipped Offhand Cyber Implant 6. He has a Rating 3 Chipjack Expert Driver and of course Rating 6 Skillwires (108 Pulse)

Clearly, he rolls 9 dice (6 for CIC 6, 3 for the Offhand chipped skill) but what happens with his dice pools? Does he:

1) Get to use Combat Pool, because he's using a non-chipped skill for his primary weapon

2) Get to use both Combat Pool and CED Task Pool because he's using both a non-chipped skill and a chipped skill simultaneously, one pool for each skill

3) Only get to use the CED Task Pool, because he's using a chipped skill and you can't use any other pools if you're using chipped skills

4) Not get any pools, because you can't use the CED pool if you're using a non-chipped skill, and you can't use Combat Pool if you're using a chipped skill

5) Not get to do it at all, because you can't combine chipped skills and non-chipped skills like that

6) Cause the Shadowrun universe to explode?

JaronK

Posted by: mfb Oct 29 2004, 02:04 AM

i'd say he can use both combat pool and CED, with the caveat that he still can't use more total pool on any one roll than his base skill (6).

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 29 2004, 03:22 AM

You don't get to use any standard Dice Pools when using a skillsoft unless its DIMAPed. He can pull dice from his Chipjack Expert Driver as normal, noting that the dice are lost until the pool refreshes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn, just like every other pool.

So if you have standard Cyber Implant Combat 6 and Off-Hand Cyber 6 softs slotted simultaneously in your Rating 12 Skillwires via two Chipjack Expert Drivers, you have a six pool dice you can pull from just as if it were your Combat Pool for the duration of the fight.

Your Combat Pool is effectively non-existant as long as you're using the slotted skills. You can, however, use it for Dodging, Damage Resistance Tests, or anything else that doesn't augment your use of the slotted skills.

Posted by: JaronK Oct 29 2004, 03:41 AM

Well only one skill (offhand cyber implant combat) is slotted. The other is natural.

JaronK

Posted by: mfb Oct 29 2004, 03:58 AM

hm, this is tricky. you don't really roll the off-hand skill, you just get extra dice for having it. natural off-hand skill, for instance, doesn't add to your base skill for the purpose of determining how much combat pool you can use on a single roll.

by that argument, i guess you shouldn't gain task pool from CED. i don't think it's equitable to have the CEDs magically stop working, though. maybe you get to use 1/2 your CED task pool, just like you're using 1/2 your skill?

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 29 2004, 04:00 AM

Ah, in that case the CED is pretty useless. It only adds to the skill being used. Off-Hand Skills aren't used like traditional skills and only add one-half their rating to your actual skill. But you would still be able to use up to 6 COmbat Pool dice with your base skill.

Posted by: toturi Oct 29 2004, 04:07 AM

You could use the CED bonus and leave the Combat Pool for Dodging and Resisting.

Posted by: ES_Riddle Oct 29 2004, 05:45 AM

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 29 2004, 06:24 AM

Not necessarily since Athletics is still heavily Attribute-related. You're still limited by Quickness and your endurance is still measured by your Body. The only difference is that you learn the same training (and have your entire nervous system augmented) that someone with your exact physical capabilities has when it comes to using Athletics.

Posted by: ES_Riddle Oct 29 2004, 09:06 AM

Charisma linked skills make just as much sense, though. Charisma is more than physical appearance. Body language, posture, intonation, reacting to subtle clues by the person you are negotiating/interrogating/intimidating, etc, are all things that a Skillsoft could concievably change. Like you said Dr. F, you have exactly the same capabilities as someone with your natural attribute with the appropriate amount of training.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 29 2004, 02:07 PM

I never said otherwise. I was just pointing out that Athletics was more heavily attribute-reliant than other skills. About the only time Charisma matters with most social skills is when using Intimidation and Interrogation.