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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Tracking Mounts

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 25 2004, 04:10 PM

OK, so in MaM they give the option of tracking mounts. They say it needs to be hooked up to a target designator system. Now comes the question...were and what are the target designator systems?

Thanks in advance.

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 25 2004, 04:53 PM

bump.

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 25 2004, 05:03 PM

Check Cannon Companion.

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 25 2004, 05:23 PM

Thanks, I will check there. Have not had much time to read that one yet, but I do have it. So the rules for this Tracking designation system are in there?

Thanks again for the help.

Posted by: mfb Oct 25 2004, 05:35 PM

well, the rules for target designators are. i'd have to sit down and look up how to use them together.

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 25 2004, 07:19 PM

Yeah, I recently had to read them for an upcoming mission. They seemed pretty functionnal.

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 25 2004, 08:04 PM

OK, I used my lunch and looked through CC and could not find them, do you know what page they are on? I was assuming they could be hooked up to a cyber eye and they would point were you look, but need some hard numbers. I have a crazy troll who wants to have 4 cyber limbs and a gun on a tracking mount in each...

Nelsen

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 25 2004, 09:09 PM

They're called Designators. There's laser, microwave and another one I forget. You can have laser designators in cybereyes. The rules appear under Indirect Fire with the rest of the rules near he end (right after Parachuting if memory serves). That's all I can give you without my books.

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 25 2004, 09:15 PM

You Kick @$$, thanks a lot. It was right there near the Parachuting rules. Thanks for the help. Just drives me nuts when the book talks about something and then I can not find the rest of the data to make it work.

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Oct 25 2004, 11:32 PM

Screw the Tracking mounts, just use fixed mounts that don't require a designator. If it's on an arm you can aim it with the arm with no penalty anyway.

Posted by: Blaze Oct 26 2004, 10:21 AM

I once had an Ork NPC with a shoulder tracking mount and eye designator, the system fitted with a gyropistol (seeker-plus rockets too). However, I thought the ruthenium dermal sheath and the forearm snap blade was pushing it just a little...

-JH.

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 26 2004, 03:26 PM

OK, so I got the basics on the tracking mounts. I really like fixed mounts myself, but listen to what this player is trying to do and some one please tell me how I should handle this. LOL

He is getting two cyber legs and two cyber arms. He is getting pop out mounts in the arms and tracking mounts in the legs. He then wants to take ambidextreus and fire 6...yes six, guns at once. Can this be done? How would I handle this system wise?

I would like to tell him "NO" but its like his third game and I figured I should give him a little creative play.

Posted by: toturi Oct 26 2004, 03:32 PM

Sure , why not? But remind him that Ambidex only works for 2 weapons only. It doesn't work for more than 2 hands. He should get the message.

Posted by: Tarantula Oct 26 2004, 03:40 PM

I really really hope hes a big metahuman, and that the guns aren't bigger than a heavy pistol... Can you imagine a gnome trying to withstand the recoil of say, 6 burst shotguns? Yeach!

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 26 2004, 04:00 PM

QUOTE (GaiasWrath8)

What the hell is the point of doing that?
A) ADD all recoil of every gun. Apply modifier to every gun.
B) The need, or ability, to fire at 4 seperate targets is not going to arise very often. Besides, you need to be just *standing* there in order to fire all guns. You also need 2 teammates spotting for your legs. Also, the situation where you'd have 4 targets (1 per leg, 1 per arm = 4) open to fire from the single angle of where the cyber freak is standing isn't going to happen very often.
D) Can you say Social Modifier?

It's doable, I just don't see it making a viable or useful character. If you need to be shooting that many bullets, I think you're fucked anyway. Just get a minigun or something.

Posted by: Tarantula Oct 26 2004, 04:04 PM

QUOTE (Backgammon)

QUOTE (GaiasWrath8 @ Oct 26 2004, 11:26 AM)

I think his point was to fire all 6 at one, by getting his own spotting laser as something like an eye implant, thus the legs shoot where hes looking, and hes likely looking where he is aiming the rest of his guns.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 26 2004, 04:04 PM

Unless you were using multiple designators, they’d all be firing at one target.

~J

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 26 2004, 04:47 PM

That was the plan, he wants to fire all 6 guns at one target. Yes he is a troll. Yes he is going to make sure every point of recoil and covered. Yes...He named his charecter "Over Kill"....

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Oct 26 2004, 04:50 PM

A character like this would be great for surpressive fire, neh? Just turn on all the guns and "wiggle".

So, ummmm, is there any canon reason not to allow this munchfest to continue?

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 26 2004, 04:59 PM

Well..He can do it, its just how the hell would I handle it with game mech. Does each gun fire sepretly? Does each weapon get a off hand penalty? Do all the weapons fire together and I only roll once?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Oct 26 2004, 05:06 PM

If they're all firing on the same target designator, just treat it as a burst. A very, very big burst. Six guns firing a three round burst should work out pretty similar to an 18 round blast of autofire.
But if you're talking about a gun in his left hand, a gun in his right hand, and an eye designator that targets the remaining four guns, then you're talking about three sets of independent targeting, and you've gone past the scope of ambidexterity. Maybe make him take ambidexterity, but then add an additional -2 on to all three targeting tests to represent a third targeting mechanism.
Maybe as a more rule friendly version that accomplishes the same thing: put guns on his legs, arms, and shoulders, and have a laser designator in each hand. Use the laser designators like pistols, using full ambidexterity rules, and each side is keyed to the three guns on that side, for more very big bursts.

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 26 2004, 05:15 PM

I like that last idea. We can take it one step further and mount the lazers on guns in his hands!!!. Muhahah. LOL.

I will do this, treat it as large burst fire and just do half and half.

Now for another question, how much movment do you think the tracking mounts can compensate for? Would the charector have to stand still? Could he walk? Could he run?

Oh, you could fit a tiffiany defender in a pop out mount in your cyber skull. LOL

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Oct 26 2004, 05:22 PM

Definitely make him stand still for this little stunt. Stand still, no cover (which would obviously block some of his guns, somewhere) If for no other reason than for pure game balance. The rationale for this ruling is that the tracking mounts can't keep up with dodging & stuff.

Posted by: Botch Oct 26 2004, 05:22 PM

No running and shooting definately, unless its running, aiming, firing, eating tarmac.

Posted by: Nikoli Oct 26 2004, 05:52 PM

He should probably also get the foot anchors.
And personally, I'd limit the armor types he can wear and have that function, or at least require heavy modification.

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 26 2004, 06:14 PM

Foot anchors, what a great idea. An ya, I told him he has to wear shorts. LOL.

He plans to use the CF thats left in the arms for armor plating.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 26 2004, 07:59 PM

tell him to put on a armored jacket instead, the plating will at best add 1 point somewhere (2 if your useing ablative armor).

Posted by: Nikoli Oct 26 2004, 08:03 PM

but the jacket will interfere with the back-mounted weapons.

I'm thinking booty shorts and a wife-beater

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 26 2004, 09:50 PM

After carful consideration with the player and the rule books we have gone with cyber legs with 10 points of impact and ballistic armor with pop out tracking mounts armed with Ares Avengers. One in each leg. then the player will have an Ares Avenger in each hand that have tracking mounts on them. With ambidextreus he will be fireing one gun at a target and getting 6 bullets (3 from hand and 3 from leg) on one target. Then second shot with the other two guns.

Now this might sound stupid...but please remeberits been years and I just started running this weekend. If burst fire adds 3 points of recoil...and I slap gas vent 4 on it. Am I safe? Or does the second shot that combat phase add 3 more points giving me 2 points I have not comped for?

Thanks for putting up with me...

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 26 2004, 09:57 PM

Second shot gives two uncomped.

~J

Posted by: Mr. Man Oct 26 2004, 10:09 PM

QUOTE (GaiasWrath8)

If burst fire adds 3 points of recoil...and I slap gas vent 4 on it. Am I safe?

Is this "player of mine" related to the "friend of mine" you sometimes hear about on sex advice talk radio shows?

(I keeed! I keeed!)

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 26 2004, 10:30 PM

LOL, No really. This may sound sad but...

I usto run Werewolf for years
Then I ran Shadowrun 2nd edition for about 6 months to a year.
Then I was out of gaming for 3 years....Had a kid and got married.
Then I started playing AD&D 2nd with some old friends again.
Then the DM moved...so I started running.
I then started giving people shadowrun books and have gotten them all to move over to this game. The problem being that I have not run 3rd editon ever and only ran 2nd for 6 months....

So yes, the Player is not me but I am almost as clueless as the player...

Posted by: toturi Oct 27 2004, 12:00 AM

QUOTE (GaiasWrath8)

I can see why you are using 1 hand gun and 1 Tracking mounted hand gun (btw, what is an Ares Avenger?) The hand gun paints the target for Tracking Mount, yes?

But since Ambidexterity doesn't work for non-hand weapons, I would say Ambidex in this case doesn't work. Instead, why not fire the 2 hand guns first, before firing the leg ones as Suppression?

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 27 2004, 04:12 PM

Ares Avenger is a machine pistol in cannon companion. Its a 3000 n lasar scope that is that target designator. That is mounted on the guns in the hand. When he pulls the trigger on one gun, the other one fires at the same target at the same time. Then the same with the other hand.

Ok, so I have four guns, two pop out tracking turents with gas vent 4. The guns in my hands our the same. So first combat phase. four guns go off and no recoil problems. 3RC*4guns=12 poins of recoil. I can comp 4(guns)*4(gv4)+1(str)=17

Then second phase goes, first gun (with attached tracking mount) goes off. this generates 6 points of recoil, I only have 5 comp left so I am at +1....Then second shot goes off. 6 points of recoil, I have no comp left so this shot is at +7.

It goes like this until the end of the combat round and we reroll init, at this point all resets...

This sound right? Am I doing this correct?

Posted by: Fortune Oct 27 2004, 04:37 PM

First phase:

First 3-round burst (all 4 guns) - recoil generated: 12 - compensated: 12 (3 per gun from GV) - no TN modifier for recoil

Second 3-round burst (all 4 guns) - additional recoil generated: 12 - compensated: 4 (1 per gun from GV (+strength if any)) - +8 TN per gun from recoil (minus strength, if any)

Rince and repeat.

Posted by: toturi Oct 27 2004, 04:47 PM

QUOTE (GaiasWrath8)

Ehhh, colour me stupid and blind but I see only a Ares Crusader and there is no laser on that. And what is "a 3000 n lasar scope that is that target designator"?

Is there a laser designator doubles as a laser scope that I missed? I do not think that normal laser sights can designate or laser designators can perform as laser sights.

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 27 2004, 04:51 PM

No, I was just talking simple stupid.

There is a baral mount in the cannon compainon. It is a target designator and cost 3000 nyan. It looks just like a laser sight, it does not funtion as one. So this was were you point the weapon with the target designator on it, the second weapon will point there as well. The trick is you could then put a laser sight on the tracking turet gun and the laser sight would be pointing right were you point your gun. Kinda cool.

Nelsen

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Oct 27 2004, 04:52 PM

Brilliant!

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 27 2004, 04:56 PM

Thanks. I was quite pleased once I figured it all out. The recoil was the only problem I was having. Did the old rules from 2nd ed let you cancel out recoil completely if you could vent all recoil produced? Like if the gun produced 3 points per round and you had gas vent 3 you would never have to worry?

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 27 2004, 05:03 PM

QUOTE (GaiasWrath8)

Not quite. Spotting is a complex action that precludes you from doing anything else.

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 27 2004, 05:26 PM

What? I thought that was only for things that tracked like missles?

What they hell is the point of a Tracking cyber mount then!!!! So I can hold al ittle laser pointed in my hand for a full complexe action and do what?

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 27 2004, 05:37 PM

So some please help. What the hell would the point of having popup tracking mounts in cyber arms or legs be? If I have to use a tracking designator that takes a full complex action. It would just not be practical to use. Am I missing something?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 27 2004, 05:45 PM

You don't need to be the one using the designator. You can also have multiple mounts responding.

~J

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 27 2004, 05:56 PM

OK, so lets take this back one step.

Lets say I have two popup tracking mounts, one in each leg. Then I hold one gun with a laser designator on it. I point the laser at a target for a complex action, if I get a lock. the two guns fire at the target? I would resolve each gun sepretly? They fire that round? Do I have to continue to point the designator at the target and do nothing but this?

Thanks for your help, you are saving what is left of my hair.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 27 2004, 06:05 PM

QUOTE (GaiasWrath8)

I point the laser at a target for a complex action, if I get a lock. the two guns fire at the target?

Correct.

QUOTE

I would resolve each gun sepretly?

Correct, by canon. You may want to count them together for simplicity, but they're separate weapons.

QUOTE

They fire that round?

I believe so, yes.

QUOTE

Do I have to continue to point the designator at the target and do nothing but this?

If you want them to keep firing, yes, but at any time you can switch to blasting away with your pistol.

~J

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 27 2004, 06:25 PM

Interesting. So then, its still amost not worth it. LOL. No way to set those guns to just shoot what you shoot huh?

Do you know what book a target designator is is in for a cyber eye?

Does a tack computer help with this stuff?

Thanks again

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 27 2004, 07:33 PM

I guess I have a lot more reading to do..

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 27 2004, 07:54 PM

QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 27 2004, 06:37 PM)

hmm, i have allways read the rules so that only unconpensated recoil from the previous burst carrys over. but now that i look at the full auto rules in sr3 i see that im wrong as all the recoil carrys from one burst to the next. alltho it seems a bit logicaly oddball, first it have no effect as RC takes care of it but then suddenly it have effect again so RC must take care of it again?

was this diffrent in sr2?

edit:

just checked and no, same deal in sr2. maybe its just me remebering wrong again. but then it makes more logical sense that ones something is compensated for then its compensated for, end of story.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 27 2004, 08:12 PM

It is compensated for, end of story. The recoil compensation is also used up for that firing sequence, end of story.

~J

Posted by: Moonstone Spider Oct 27 2004, 08:35 PM

Hmm another good argument for fixed mounts instead of popups, you can fire them every round without target designating.

I'm pretty sure recoil is fully compensated and has no other effect once it's compensated. Just slap a GV4, Custom Grip, and underbarrel weight on each gun and let loose 6 rounds per gun with no ill effects, even while running. Finally a use for cyberarms.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 27 2004, 08:38 PM

Per gun per pass, yes. Not per shot.

~J

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 27 2004, 09:01 PM

Thats what I thought, if you fully comped a gun, GV4 on a gun that only puts out 3 points of recoil. You would never worry about recoil, even with multipul actions. But I guess I was wrong.

Posted by: Paco Nov 2 2004, 05:21 PM

Expanding on the total twinkieness of the thread, would it be possible to house a few hundred MP in the tracking mounts, add a senros (thermo, low light, magnification, ultrasound), then add some robot programs to make them act as drones? Designate a target and let the tracking mounts do the rest.

Posted by: Botch Nov 2 2004, 05:46 PM

QUOTE (Backgammon @ Oct 27 2004, 06:03 PM)

QUOTE (GaiasWrath8 @ Oct 27 2004, 12:51 PM)

Not quite. Spotting is a complex action that precludes you from doing anything else.

What, like shooting at the target you're already aiming at with the gun in your hand which is being used as a designator by aiming directly at the target you want to shoot at.

Spotting rules should not apply as the PC is not dependant on another to launch the projectile, nor is a being used to control a slow moving projectile such as a rocket or missle. The PC is most certainly not several klicks ahead of the gun battery painting a target for support munitions.

If there is any kind of restriction on his targetting system it would have to be a decision about how fast the tracking mounts can adjust aim and I can't recall reading any restrictions on that.

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Nov 2 2004, 07:38 PM

Thats what I was saying.

If I have a gun...it has a lazar spotter thing on it. Why cant I shoot a target and have the two tracking mounts shoot at the same target I am shooting at. Seems like a good idea to me.

Oh ya, and what a great idea on the drown like tracking mounts. That would kick ass....but what if one day a virus got in your program. And it jsut desided to pick off your girl friend at dinner. LOL.

Posted by: Paco Nov 2 2004, 07:48 PM

Id say that the tracking mounts at that point would be closed circuit and could only be accessed by someone physically hacking your bod ... I wonder if you were in the matrix if someone could hack through and take control of the tracking mounts as slaves ... interesting thought

Posted by: Tanka Nov 2 2004, 08:01 PM

QUOTE (Paco)

Why not just be a Rigger with BattleTac FDDM/IVIS and a good Sensor/Pilot rating?

Posted by: Eyeless Blond Nov 2 2004, 08:26 PM

Heh. Rigging your own body; now *that* would be a fun idea.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 2 2004, 08:49 PM

I left out the mention of Drones in my above post, heh.

Though it would be possible. Look at The Network in Threats 2. If you can store/compile an AI from a bunch of brains, why not rig your own body?