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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Wash my car!
Posted by: LinaInverse Oct 27 2004, 06:30 PM
This is something that came up whimsically during our last game, but it's now piqued my curiosity.
Most of SR understandably revolves around combat or other hostile situations. But even the most aggressive runners aren't running 24/7/365; everyone needs downtime. Most campaigns just don't talk about those times because it's usually going to be boring to roleplaying your Chromed Sammy or Combat Mage picking up groceries and dry-cleaning from the local supermarket. I was thinking though whether or not any of these chars ever used their "abilities" to help out in day-to-day life.
The topic I was thinking was Spirit services (equally applicable to Elementals, though much more costly in nuyen). In my last game, my character's (Shaman) new sports car got vandalized and I jokingly said to my GM that I'll just conjure a City Spirit to wash it for me. But is it possible for a Shaman who wants to be lazy to burn a service asking the spirit to do something menial (but albiet far safer)? Usually when we think of services, we talk about adding casting dice, sustain that spell, confuse that enemy, etc. Could I have had a Spirit burn 1 service to physically manafest, then another service to do physical labor? Would it have consequences? Do spirits "harbor a grudge"? For that matter, when I conjure in general, do I necessarily get the same poor spirit over and over?
I mean, could you envision a Sammy using his retractable claws to skirt a steak for fajita prep over a grill? Or having a Rigger dispatch a drone to pick up his dry-cleaning through a drive-through cleaner?
Posted by: lorthazar Oct 27 2004, 06:37 PM
Well let's see do spirits harbor grudges. Never know any spirit except a fee one to do that. Even when we've let Elementals die, Mist Spirits get killed, and watcher cannon fodder by the dozen.
the average spirit might look at the Shaman and go something like "Is that all you wanted? Man, you had me worried."
Posted by: Fortune Oct 27 2004, 06:41 PM
The Services listed in canon are only examples given for specific game effects. There is no reason Spirits could not be asked to perform a wide variety of other types of services for their summoner.
Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 27 2004, 06:42 PM
LOL, that was great. I fully agree with that last coment. I think the spirit would be happy it was only being asked to clean a car or the house.
And for the record, I have use my cyber spurs to eat my stake. The GM said the fork was dirty, and I just cleaned my spurs the night before.
Posted by: Dashifen Oct 27 2004, 06:47 PM
Aren't cyberspurs on your feet?
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 27 2004, 06:48 PM
And why would you be eating a stake? Or is that some hip new way of saying you're a vampire that was being attacked or somethin'?
Posted by: Dashifen Oct 27 2004, 06:48 PM
Yeah tag team harassment. we take this too seriously 
Posted by: Ecclesiastes Oct 27 2004, 06:50 PM
You people must live sad sad lives.
... Crap, so do I! 
Posted by: Req Oct 27 2004, 06:55 PM
| QUOTE (lorthazar) |
| Well let's see do spirits harbor grudges. Never know any spirit except a fee one to do that. |
Well...have you read Threats?
Posted by: LinaInverse Oct 27 2004, 06:57 PM
When I said skirt steak, I meant that most fajita steak is scored with groves to make it more tender, then sliced into strips after it's off the grill. I would think that Dikoted Claws (the ones from your hands/knuckles) would be ideal for going through steak with minimal effort.
If my GM agrees with this line of thinking, then hey, I'm going to start having my spirits do all sort of things around the house...
Posted by: Fortune Oct 27 2004, 06:58 PM
Note that he did say any Spirit except a Free one. 
Posted by: RangerJoe Oct 27 2004, 06:59 PM
Sigh... I suppose professors of thaumatology prefer high level air elementals/spirits to grad students. They work harder, don't take off lunch, have comparable intelligence, and cost about half as much.
*out of the job*
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 27 2004, 07:02 PM
Air elementals take some hours to hire, time to teach what needs to be done, and the occasional process to reinforce their work ethic. Desperate grad students are much more adundant and take less upkeep.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 27 2004, 07:04 PM
Air elementals also don't have any Skill.
Posted by: RangerJoe Oct 27 2004, 07:06 PM
Perhaps true. I'm less worried now. Just double-checked, and INT is set at the elemental's force, so there's still a dead heat between bright grad students and high force elementals.
whew.
Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 27 2004, 08:04 PM
i thought they used force for all skill tests, without defaulting...
Posted by: Siege Oct 27 2004, 08:12 PM
I can tell this is the more amusing variant of the "carry this grenade behind that obstacle and pull the pin" discussion.
I dunno - could you order a water elemental to engulf a target and then zap both of them with a lightning spell/power cable?
-Siege
Posted by: RangerJoe Oct 27 2004, 08:13 PM
| QUOTE |
| Spirits and dragons may perform the same actions as normal characters, assuming they have the physical or paranormal means to do so. This may require some judgement on the part of the gamemaster.... pg. 265, BBB |
I believe they use their force as the "combat skill" for attacking, but given that some pains are made to differentiate between spirit/elemntal types' attributes, I tend to have them default (with or without penalties) when performing non-combat actions (such as washing the car)
Posted by: Nikoli Oct 27 2004, 08:19 PM
I would judge that on case by case depending on task requested and spirit type. A spirit could probably use it's force without defaulting for tasks that are loosely associated with it's domain, City spirit to clean up your street or wash your car, forest spirit to tend a fire or clean up your camp while on nature holiday.
Just don't ask a Fire Elemental to wash your car 
Posted by: Siege Oct 27 2004, 08:23 PM
Which raises yet another interesting thought - can you summon the same spirit repeatedly?
"Oh gawd, not the grenade bunch again!"
-Siege
Posted by: LinaInverse Oct 27 2004, 08:30 PM
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| I would judge that on case by case depending on task requested and spirit type. A spirit could probably use it's force without defaulting for tasks that are loosely associated with it's domain, City spirit to clean up your street or wash your car, forest spirit to tend a fire or clean up your camp while on nature holiday. Just don't ask a Fire Elemental to wash your car |
Have a Fire Elemental to cook your steak. Use the Water and Air Elemental to clean the car. For cleaning up your house, a Shaman would use a Hearth spirit.
Posted by: Req Oct 27 2004, 08:30 PM
No, summon a fire elemental. Order it to beat the hell out of "whatever this red light is shining on," pointing to the laser sight on your gun.
Repeat to limit of charisma.
Aim your gun at something you hate. Don't bother pulling the trigger.
Repeat.
It doesn't really offer anything you can't do anyway, but it's got mad style.
Posted by: DocMortand Oct 27 2004, 09:11 PM
| QUOTE (Siege @ Oct 27 2004, 03:23 PM) |
| Which raises yet another interesting thought - can you summon the same spirit repeatedly? "Oh gawd, not the grenade bunch again!" |
I think the only way you can do that is if you know the spirits true name. I could be wrong tho...and it definately would be humorous.
By the way, using dikoted knives to eat your food strikes me as a bit wierd - I mean, you'd have to be really careful you didn't cut through the plate...and the table...
| QUOTE |
| So, summon a fire elemental. Order it to beat the hell out of "whatever this red light is shining on," pointing to the laser sight on your gun. |
Heh...That's a new use of magic "bullets" I hadn't thought of. Altho I'd be careful to word it precisely, or the elemental might start beating the hell out of the laser sight.
EDIT: And why the heck would you want a nature spirit to tend to your fire? I would think a nature spirit would want to EXTINGUISH the fire.
Posted by: Bigity Oct 27 2004, 09:13 PM
Nevermind washing the car, how about washing a person?
Or assigning a weather spirit to water your backyard garden.
Posted by: DocMortand Oct 27 2004, 09:19 PM
Heh - a water elemental to clear all that wax out of your ear?
A new way to pick your nose or absorb your odorous farts in social situations?
Posted by: LinaInverse Oct 27 2004, 09:27 PM
| QUOTE (DocMortand) |
| A new way to pick your nose or absorb your odorous farts in social situations? |
No, that'd probably be an Air Elemental.
Next time I go shopping, there's going to be a manifested City Spirit to hold all my bags! Too bad Shamen are limited to a single Nature spirit at a time, but at least unlike Hermetics, we don't pay for our butlers
Posted by: DocMortand Oct 27 2004, 09:31 PM
Just make sure to make your butler semi-intelligent, or they may go "ooh shiny!" and dart off.
Posted by: hyzmarca Oct 27 2004, 09:54 PM
| QUOTE (DocMortand @ Oct 27 2004, 04:11 PM) | ||
Heh...That's a new use of magic "bullets" I hadn't thought of. Altho I'd be careful to word it precisely, or the elemental might start beating the hell out of the laser sight. |
And make sure not to accidently pain yourself you your buddy with the laser when your drawing the weapon.
Posted by: Fortune Oct 27 2004, 10:59 PM
| QUOTE (DocMortand) |
| And why the heck would you want a nature spirit to tend to your fire? I would think a nature spirit would want to EXTINGUISH the fire. |
Fire is a part of nature. The occasional fire is actually quite necessary for good growth. The Spirit is motivated by (and could be grateful for) your concern to keep the fire in check and minimize impact on the environment. There are a lot of ways you could explain it.
Posted by: Stumps Oct 27 2004, 11:13 PM
silly people...no one should need ponder the diverse services of spirits if we all remind people of..."sex with our dikoted ally spirit"
That kinda sums that up right?
Hey whatever happened to the "abused elemental society" thing that was going on back a while ago. (sorry...PM me that answer please...let's not de-rail this good thread)
Posted by: Corporate Raider Oct 27 2004, 11:18 PM
This whole issue may be the biggest problem I have with SR3. IIRC, shamans in SR2 were unable to command spirits to physical service. That was the domain of elementals. Nature spirits are too flexible as written in the current edition.
Posted by: Fortune Oct 27 2004, 11:24 PM
I don't recall anything of the sort. Do you have a reference?
I guess it depends on what you call 'Physical Service', but Spirits have always been able to engage in combat, perform remote service, engulf (if capable), and other things that require them to materialize.
Posted by: Necro Tech Oct 28 2004, 12:29 AM
I don't know about summoning the same nature spirits but you can add services to elementals by performing a new ritual. Great for when your GM says that the spirit doesn't know how to do something. Teach it, keep it, expand its skill set.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 28 2004, 12:38 AM
Nature Spirits are allies and friends of the shaman, not tools. Having your Hearth Spirit clean house with you is cool; having it clean while you drink on the couch is not (unless you have reason such as a broken leg). [Nature] Spirits are sentient and if treated badly will perform their services to the least, while treated with compassion might go one step beyond. Their disadvantage is that others can ask things of them as well (though the spirit is not bound to serve them) if it does not conflict with their summoner's command. They also reflect the domain they are summoned from. A Hearth Spirit from a happy home will be mannered and helpful, while one from a pool of human misery will be dull, rude, and often hostile.
Elementals are tools to be used as such, though they can appreciate manners.
Posted by: ES_Riddle Oct 28 2004, 12:43 AM
| QUOTE (LinaInverse) |
| I mean, could you envision a Sammy using his retractable claws to skirt a steak for fajita prep over a grill? |
Ew…those are the same claws he uses to kill people. That definitely has to be a blood borne pathogen risk.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 28 2004, 12:49 AM
Not if properly sterilized. I'd assume you'd do that regularly, given that they do retract into your arm and all.
~J
Posted by: toturi Oct 28 2004, 12:49 AM
I have this idea of a Hearth spirit nanny while the parents go on a night out on the town.
Posted by: Req Oct 28 2004, 02:12 AM
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| I have this idea of a Hearth spirit nanny while the parents go on a night out on the town. |
Blood spirits do it better.
"Now, Drax'kul the Uncaring, I want Tommy and Pam in bed by 8. No Nintendo until after they have their dinner!"
Posted by: Cain Oct 28 2004, 03:30 AM
| QUOTE |
| Having your Hearth Spirit clean house with you is cool; having it clean while you drink on the couch is not (unless you have reason such as a broken leg). |
Not quite true. One of the books mentioned the Domovoi as a variant of Hearth spirits, and historically they did clean the house for you. There's also the story of the shoemaker and the elves, and several other fables about faeries who did chores for people.
Posted by: Edward Oct 28 2004, 05:47 AM
It dose suggest that a Sharman should respect his spirit allies. This dose not preclude having them help with the chores but you have to be respectful about it. Summoning a hearth spirit to clean your home for the rent inspection because you have to go on a run is one thing. Having it clean the car because you want to budge around is being disrespectful.
Elementals are also intelligent but they are bound effectively as slaves. When they get free they almost always attack there summoned (or return to the metaplains) regales of how they where treated being forced to service will do that. Heretics look upon elementals s tools at best, slaves at worst (ok there are exceptions) having one clean your car while you do nothing would be quite acceptable but consider that timothy 3 doors down wants some pocket money and would happily do the job for $50 you begin to relies that its not very economical way of getting the car cleaned.
Edward
Posted by: Kayne Oct 28 2004, 09:02 AM
| QUOTE (Edward) |
| Heretics look upon elementals s tools at best, slaves at worst (ok there are exceptions) having one clean your car while you do nothing would be quite acceptable but consider that timothy 3 doors down wants some pocket money and would happily do the job for $50 you begin to relies that its not very economical way of getting the car cleaned. |
Granted, but it sends a clear message to the local gangers about who's car they ought not to break into and trash.
Posted by: LinaInverse Oct 28 2004, 03:33 PM
Couple of people now saying that "spirits have feelings too". What about the argument that chores may not be "dignified" but they sure as hell a lot safer. How is it "better" to send a spirit or watcher to certain death (as we define death anyway) vs some minor chores?
Also, what about another scenario between "lazy" and "on a run" like having a spirit do chores while you're doing something like researching a new spell, building a foci, or something similar that requires the Shaman's near-constant concentration?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 28 2004, 03:38 PM
Spirits are a creation of the summoner's will. Whether some bleeding-hearts may worry about "feelings" or not is irrelevant.
~J
Posted by: toturi Oct 28 2004, 03:52 PM
Where is that thread anyway? Can't find it... 
Posted by: BaronJ Oct 28 2004, 04:36 PM
Hmm.. it's an interesting proposition.
When you summon a spirit, you get a particular number of services, depending on how well you convinced the spirit to emerge in astral space (similar with elementals). With elementals, you can 're summon' them to increase the number of services they have (can't do that with spirits).
Spirits jet once they're done, being pulled onto the astral plane usually an affront to their dignity, unless they do something really helpful for the manasphere as a whole. Your average street shaman is not summoning them for the common good, but rather the self-good of the summoner.
Although, this does remind me of the over-powered mage character I once ran with... had the Earth Elemental check the oil and tires while the Fire Elemental pumped the gas at a service station just outside the Tir border..
"If ever you come out by the Tir border...." I just came up with an idea for a song!
But anyway. IMHO, the more mundane and inane the task, the quicker the spirit is going to depart when it's services are fulfilled.
Posted by: Nikoli Oct 28 2004, 04:38 PM
Fire elemental, pumping gas...
Anyone else see a funny anecdote for the CLUE files?
Posted by: Stumps Oct 28 2004, 04:41 PM
I better like the elemental shofer(I know I spelled that wrong)
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 28 2004, 04:54 PM
chaufer (drekin' foreign words picked up and not spelled phoenetically)
[edit: drek, still wrong, but the spell check thought it was right... must find more reliable spell checking]
Posted by: LinaInverse Oct 28 2004, 04:57 PM
Are you guys talking about a chauffeur? The problem with that is that spirits, elementals, and critters in general are kind of nebulous in defining skills. Not sure if you really want an elemental with no Car skill driving you around.
Posted by: Fortune Oct 28 2004, 05:04 PM
Default to Reaction just like everyone else.
Posted by: Adarael Oct 28 2004, 07:18 PM
I've had elementals for tea and for dinner a couple of times. I think once out of four tries did I get one that had enough rudimentary personality to have a conversation.
And, of course, there's always Hiro - the gay free fire elemental at UC Berkeley. Which just rocks.
Posted by: Siege Oct 28 2004, 10:15 PM
Which bothers me only because I wasn't aware un-dikoted spirits had sex. Or at least a gender to qualify as hetero or homo sexual.
-Siege
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 28 2004, 10:16 PM
I think it ends up being more what they identify with rather than an actual gender...
~J
Posted by: Siege Oct 28 2004, 10:20 PM
Sorry, it still gives me a headache - a genderless spirit decides to have sex with men or women.
It can only be called hetero or homo sexual if the spirit has a gender of it's own.
Sorry, over-analyzing. Will stop now.
-Siege
Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 28 2004, 10:24 PM
| QUOTE |
| Also, what about another scenario between "lazy" and "on a run" like having a spirit do chores while you're doing something like researching a new spell, building a foci, or something similar that requires the Shaman's near-constant concentration? |
There is no issue there.
| QUOTE |
| . Or at least a gender to qualify as hetero or homo sexual. |
Most free spirits choose a gender, and even have seperate names for one type (anime / anima, IIRC).
Posted by: hyzmarca Oct 28 2004, 10:51 PM
| QUOTE (Siege) |
| Sorry, it still gives me a headache - a genderless spirit decides to have sex with men or women. It can only be called hetero or homo sexual if the spirit has a gender of it's own. Sorry, over-analyzing. Will stop now. -Siege |
Well, demons that drain their victim's life force by having sex are fairly common in folklore. Assuming taht succubi/incubi and their counterparts in other cultures aren't vampire varients, they're probably Free Spirits. There's more than one way for a spirit to get karma.
Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 28 2004, 10:54 PM
Wonder if a spirit could check out a girl for you and let you know if she was healthy on the inside. DD free and all. This way you are not walking in blind.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 28 2004, 10:56 PM
| QUOTE |
| Wonder if a spirit could check out a girl for you and let you know if she was healthy on the inside. |
No better than someone with Astral Perception and a high Int and/or Arua Reading skill.
Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 28 2004, 11:00 PM
Well I think I have an idea. I will start a dating servus for extra cash (ingame) that will pay for that cultured bio I needed. We will get spirits to check out all the women who sign up. It will be a great hit.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 28 2004, 11:07 PM
| QUOTE |
| Well I think I have an idea. I will start a dating servus for extra cash (ingame) that will pay for that cultured bio I needed. We will get spirits to check out all the women who sign up. It will be a great hit. |
Corporations around the world pay an average of 100 dollars an hour for the creation of wards (a service which can be performed by summoned spirits as well!). Using the Enchanting skill can garnish hundreds of thousands of dollars in just a few months. The spell design skill could net even more in a similar amount of time. Magicians have no lack of methods to earn money, it's just the raising of one's profile that presents issues. YMMV
Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 28 2004, 11:09 PM
Well it would have been funny...
Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 28 2004, 11:12 PM
Actually, I'm was trying to say you need to do more than look at their auras to make money, but maybe that's what you meant. And no, it really wasn't that funny anyway.
Posted by: Siege Oct 28 2004, 11:28 PM
Snicker.
Ya know, a free spirit hooker would make a lot of Karma.
John: "What, no cash? And you'll do what? All I have to give you is a little...what? Wheee!"
-Siege
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 28 2004, 11:34 PM
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| (anime / anima, IIRC). |
Animus/anima. Anime is rather different
~J
Posted by: Siege Oct 29 2004, 12:13 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
Animus/anima. Anime is rather different ~J |
Not in the context of this discussion.
-Siege
Posted by: Kremlin KOA Oct 29 2004, 12:34 AM
yeah anime is the non gender specific version (shonen and shojou subtypes notwithstanding )
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2004, 01:04 AM
Wouldn't it be animum?
~J
Posted by: Joker9125 Oct 29 2004, 02:10 AM
I had a quadrapelegic mage character once (who is now retired and trying to take over sinsearch) and he uses his elementals for mundane tasks all the time. He has spirits bound to his house to perform these duties (house rule: If a spirit can be bound to defend it could also be bound to go aroundonce a day and sweep, cook, ect....)
Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 29 2004, 02:13 AM
It's really so much cheaper to buy a drone than use Elementals.
Posted by: Joker9125 Oct 29 2004, 02:23 AM
Yea but drones just arnt his style He also has a printed hermatic library rating 8 (yes he does have a room in his house devoted to this). And plus their is something about an earth elemental materializing and running kids off his lawn that carries more of a threat than an infirm (-6 i think) quadrapelegic albino elf doing it.
Posted by: Toptomcat Oct 29 2004, 03:01 AM
What did you BUY with all those points!?
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 29 2004, 03:08 AM
Apparently, sorcery, conjuring, spells, and either resources or pre-game spirits.
Posted by: Joker9125 Oct 29 2004, 04:24 AM
Hmm lets see homeground, bonus attribute point Char, exceptional attribute Will, quick healer, and 3 spirit affinitys (house rule as well I got one for earth, fire, and air elementals it reduces the TN to summon by one)
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Oct 29 2004, 11:23 AM
| QUOTE (Joker9125) |
| and 3 spirit affinitys (house rule as well I got one for earth, fire, and air elementals it reduces the TN to summon by one) |
Perhaps it's just me but that screams broken......
Posted by: Crusher Bob Oct 29 2004, 11:41 AM
For a hermetic mage, this advantage is largely economic (less money spent on conjuring materials) than otherwise, since elementals have to be summoned in a (force) hours long ritual.
For a shaman, this would probably be broken, for a hermetic, I'm not sure.
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