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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Shotguns

Posted by: Grimtooth Oct 28 2004, 05:29 PM

What are considered regular rounds for shotguns? Shot or Slugs?

Also, are there dodge penalties for shotgun blasts? In my mind there shoud be a penalty on the dodge out beyond the first spread iteration.

This assumes a choke setting of 10.

1m wide path for 10m
2m wide path for 10m - Penalty
3m wide path for 10m - Penalty
4m wide path for 10m - Penalty

Anyone else looking at it this way?

Posted by: Nikoli Oct 28 2004, 05:32 PM

Personally, I leave regular up to the player. you buy 50 rnds of shot ammo, just tell me how much iis shot and how much is slug
Haven't thought too much about the dodging mods but it makes sense on some levels

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 28 2004, 05:32 PM

Regular rounds are slugs. Depending on GM, shot may be regular as well. There already is a penalty to dodge, equal to the TN mod on the shot from spread (generally topping out at +9 to dodge/-9 to hit).

~J

Posted by: Grimtooth Oct 28 2004, 05:33 PM

Thanks folks!

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 28 2004, 06:11 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Regular rounds are slugs. Depending on GM, shot may be regular as well.

You got it backwards. Regular ammunition for a shotgun is shot, hence choke settings and the like. Actually you get to choose which one you want when you buy it, but the default assumption is you're using shot.

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 28 2004, 06:20 PM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 28 2004, 11:32 AM)

Regular rounds are slugs. Depending on GM, shot may be regular as well.

Well, the default damage code for shotguns, the one listed when you look in the gear section, assumes slug rounds. Shot, aka flechette, add +1 Damage Code to that. So you could say that default is slugs.

Posted by: Slacker Oct 28 2004, 06:20 PM

Actually, since most of the shotguns listed in the Cannon Companion show damage not being flechette and even those that do list flechette damage list it second, I would have to say that the standard ammo for shotguns in Shadowrun is slugs not shot shell.

However, I and every GM I have ever played with have just said that shot shell and slugs are purchased as standard ammo and the player just has to keep track of the number of each seperately, just like Nikoli said.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 28 2004, 06:22 PM

SR3, p. 116: "Damage codes for weapons are calculated using regular ammunition."
SR3, p. 117: "Shotguns described in the Street Gear section (beginning on p. 277) fire slug rounds. Characters can load them with shot rounds [...]"
SR3, p. 278, Defiance T-250 and Enfield AS-7 have 10S and 8S Damage Codes in the tables, special mention is made in the descriptions of shot round use and the Damage Code with shot rounds.

I couldn't find the bit where it discusses the pricing of slugs vs shot rounds. In any case, the above clearly suggests that, at least for the non-pistol core book shotguns, slug = regular. The only difference that makes is for notekeeping.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 28 2004, 07:21 PM

I s'pose I was misremembering then.

Posted by: Wireknight Oct 28 2004, 07:42 PM

I think that since shotguns can only use shotgun rounds, they're limited, and all things limited count as being geased, so they should only be usable in the day or at night!

Oh, wait, I'm not insane, so I don't think that.

But, yeah, regular rounds for some shotguns are slugs. Shot rounds deal flechette type damage and have +1 to the damage level, which indicates that the Remington Roomsweeper employs shot rounds by default. I think that they should have used a slash-notation to show both potential damage types:

Defiance T-250(fullbarrel): 10S/10D(f)
Defiance T-250(sawed-off): 8S/8D(f)
Franchi SPAS-22: 10S/10D(f)
Mossberg CMDT: 8S/8D(f)
Remington Roomsweeper: 9M/9S(f)

Like that.

Posted by: ES_Riddle Oct 29 2004, 09:30 AM

I've always just done it that slugs are "standard" ammo at 20¥/box and shot rounds are "flechette" that cost 100¥/box. You're getting the all of the benefits of flechette when you use shot (and more!) and should have to pay for it.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Oct 29 2004, 10:39 AM

QUOTE (Wireknight)

Franchi SPAS-22: 10S/10D(f)

"What the FRAG is THAT?"

"It's a shotgun Sol"

"It's Fragging anti-aircraft gun VIN-CENT!"

"Yeah well, I wanna raise a few pulse's don't I"

Posted by: Johnny the Bull Oct 29 2004, 12:47 PM

QUOTE (ES_Riddle)

Could be that flechette is exactly that, and regular is either slug or tungsten shot.

Posted by: Crusher Bob Oct 29 2004, 01:35 PM

If you can get tungsten shot for that cheap, you are probably better of cracking open the shotgun shells, melting the tungsten, and selling it as raw materials... Tungsten is sorta pricy stuff

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 29 2004, 02:36 PM

It seems all tungsten other than some tungsten heavy metal powders is traded in very large amounts, with a price decided separately for each transaction. There is no spot price for tungsten to be found like there is for gold, platinum, silver etc. The closest you can get is the ~$10/lb of tungsten heavy powder (99%+ tungsten).

Malleable tungsten matrix shotgun ammunition goes for ~1.5-2x the price of steel shot these days, and probably has a pretty low tungsten% (since the allou is generally around 40% heavier than steel, around the same density as lead).

So there's no way it could be profitable to sell the raw tungsten from shotgun ammunition, even if you get the ammunition very, very cheap. Assuming 50% tungsten content, you'd need to get a 10-round box for ~$8 (you'll probably pay more for 10 rounds of steel shotgun ammunition) to break even, and that's assuming you can extract the tungsten for free.

Posted by: Raygun Oct 30 2004, 02:12 AM

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,112,669.WKU.&OS=PN/6,112,669&RS=PN/6,112,669: Projectiles made from tungsten and iron

Posted by: Catsnightmare Oct 30 2004, 03:02 AM

QUOTE (ES_Riddle)

That's fucking insane! I don't know of ANY type of shot firing shotgun rounds that would cost that much! Not even the big 00 shot used for hunting deer.

Posted by: Arethusa Oct 30 2004, 04:45 AM

QUOTE (Johnny the Bull)

QUOTE (ES_Riddle @ Oct 29 2004, 07:30 PM)

Could be that flechette is exactly that, and regular is either slug or tungsten shot.

If flechettes were flechettes, they'd punch through armor instead of breaking on it.

SR flechettes are not flechettes.

QUOTE (Catsnightmare)

That's fucking insane! I don't know of ANY type of shot firing shotgun rounds that would cost that much! Not even the big 00 shot used for hunting deer.

Ah, but real life shotguns can't cut anything in a 10m circle in half with a single shot.

SR shotguns are not shotguns

But, then again, anyone using a canon shotgun deserves to be beaten to death, so.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 30 2004, 04:48 AM

QUOTE (Arethusa)

But, then again, anyone using a canon shotgun deserves to be beaten to death, so.

Wonderful. Will you be delivering the beating yourself, or can I expect an underling?

~J

Posted by: Crusher Bob Oct 30 2004, 04:51 AM

Oh no, Mr Kagetenshi your fatal beating has already been delivered. You just don't know it yet. Your brain eating zombie rampage will provide us with the much needed 'Halloween run' material.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 30 2004, 05:32 AM

Yeah, right, like I haven't heard that one beforoaaaaaagh! *Stomp stomp stomp*

What? Brains? No, I said pains! I'm paining for chicken!

~J

Posted by: Vagabond Oct 30 2004, 10:25 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

I s'pose I was misremembering then.

Probably, Doc.

I suppose you were operating in that little place called reality, where shot is more common than a slug to put in a shotgun (at least among professionals that use them).

Something y'all may want to keep in mind, though. In reality it isn't wise to interchange the two too often in the same shotgun using the same barrell. Slugs travel further and more acurately in a barrell that's rifled (that is, grooves on the inside of the barrell make the projectile spin, for those non-gun affluent). However, buckshot tends to ruin the rifling after prolonged usage.

As a GM, I generally ask the player which he plans on using inside the shotgun more. If he says shot rounds, then I assume the barrell isn't rifled and slug arounds may not be as acurate. If he says slug, I assume the barrell is rifled.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 30 2004, 02:25 PM

It actually ruins the rifling? I thought it just made the spread hopelessly wide.

~J

Posted by: Kremlin KOA Oct 30 2004, 02:45 PM

and after you beat Kage to death I would be next on the list. Many have tried to kill me. I still live.

Posted by: mmu1 Oct 30 2004, 02:48 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 30 2004, 09:25 AM)

It actually ruins the rifling? I thought it just made the spread hopelessly wide.

~J

It shouldn't ruin the rifling, at least these days, because AFAIK the shot is packaged in a plastic sleeve that doesn't open up until it leaves the barrel.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 30 2004, 02:51 PM

I'm a bit embarrased to say I'm not completely sure whether the shot generally stays completely inside the plastic wad while in the barrel or not. If it stays in the wad, there will be no damage to the barrel because the only thing it contacts with is the plastic wad. If the pellets touch the rifling, then obviously the barrel will have a whole lot of wear.

The shot pattern will be hopelessly wide in any case. As in, the kind of pattern you get with canon SR choke rules...

Posted by: mmu1 Oct 30 2004, 03:02 PM

According to a site on shotgun patterns I've read, the wad separates from the shot slowly enough that it often still ends up pushed into the target along with the shot at 5-10 foot ranges.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 30 2004, 04:46 PM

Yeah, I got that much. I was wondering more about whether it's common for some pellets to be pushed out of the wad as it makes its way out of the barrel, so that there's a small cloud (or just a few pellets in case of larger shot) scraping the sides of the barrel. That could lead to ruined rifling.

Thinking more about it, it shouldn't happen. The wad is constantly accelerated as its moving in the barrel, so the pellets should be firmly inside the wad all the way out. So I'd expect there's no damage to the rifling from firing shot.

Posted by: Raygun Oct 30 2004, 05:26 PM

Any kind of lead shot (buckshot included) won't do any significant harm to a shotgun barrel other than normal wear, even if it comes in direct contact with it (and it often does as the wad used is often just a plastic piston and a piece of compressed fiber cushion that sit between the powder charge and the shot column and does not encase the shot). The lead alloy used is much, much softer than barrel steel. The shot will deform long before any permanent damage is done.

Steel shot (or other steel projectiles, like flechettes) will damage a barrel if it repeatedly comes into direct contact with the barrel. The steel used if often hard enough to dig gouges out of the barrel steel (and yes, it does happen, especially in older shotguns). Also, being harder, steel won't compress through chokes like lead does, so there's a possibility of ruining chokes and barrels that way. As has been said, most steel shot loads are encased in a plastic cup or sabot that's designed to discard from the shot after the package leaves the barrel. It minimizes the risk of barrel damage.

Any kind of shot load fired through a rifled barrel is going to have an effect on the rifling, and will eventually round off the corners of the lands. Rifled barrels are not designed to fire shot loads at all. As Aus suggested, centrifugal force imparted by the barrel rifling will cause shot pattern density to suffer (not that that matters much in a room-to-room fight if that's what you're thinking about). Probably not to the extreme of SR's rules, but still not very good.

Posted by: Vagabond Nov 2 2004, 06:14 AM

I can't remember my sources- but I do seem to recall reading that buckshot did something funky to the rifling of a barrell. Maybe I confused it with a type of buckshot. I'm too unmotivated to look it up. I was also told during shotgun training at the academy it's not a good idea, either, but damned if I can remember why they said right now...

As for the plastic staying on the wad... it's supposed to stay on until the round leaves the barrell.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Nov 2 2004, 06:37 AM

QUOTE (Vagabond)

it's supposed to stay on until the round leaves the barrell.

That doesn't mean a whole lot, not in the world of firearms or elsewhere.

Posted by: mfb Nov 2 2004, 06:48 AM

maybe i'm missing something about how shotguns work, but wouldn't keeping the shot encased in anything render choke settings useless? i mean, if the shot isn't released from its configuration until after it leaves the barrel, the choke setting isn't going to be able to shape its spread pattern--it won't start spreading until after it's passed the choke.