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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Do you use the stanard rules for shotguns?

Posted by: mmu1 Oct 28 2004, 06:37 PM

The other thread asking about shotguns has made me wonder.

The first time I saw the shotgun rules I basically went "Whaaa...? Yeah, right." and determined never to use them as written.

I don't like the fact that they're almost farcially unrealistic, that with a 10S shotgun they at least seem overpowered, or the absurdity of staging up damage (or possibly even making a called shot) while hitting someone with a blast of pellets that's 2 meters wide... the whole thing just seems overly complicated and damn silly.

Should I ever run a game, I think I'll just drop the whole section and simply have buckshot act in a similar fashion rules-wise to a hollow-point bullet, and leave it at that.

How do you guys handle it?

Posted by: mfb Oct 28 2004, 06:43 PM

we use the standard rules. it's much easier, if you dig most of your brain out with a spoon. i blame video games for the insane insanity that is the shotgun rules, honestly. DOOM, i think it was, first introduced the lamentably stupid concept of a shotgun that can hit multiple targets with its spread. a plast of pellets 2 meters, wide? you wouldn't be able to kill a cockroach with that, much less a human.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 28 2004, 06:43 PM

1) no called shots with weapons that spread
2) if the spread would cause a shotgun's power to reach zero, it becomes 3 with one less damage level, repeat as needed

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 28 2004, 06:52 PM

At 90 meters with a SPAS-22 you too can be enjoying the –9 TN goodness.

First time I realized that, I was about to kill an entire group of mages with overflow from stun shells. Sadly (fortunately?) the game never did have another session.

~J

Posted by: mfb Oct 28 2004, 06:55 PM

the way to handle shotguns in the most realistic manner would be to implement only 4 choke settings, listed below. note that the choke settings i'm listing aren't based on real numbers; they're simply based on a more realistic approach to how shotguns work. note that there is no mention of crap like 'hitting multiple targets'.

1: -1 TN at Extreme Ranges, -1 Damage Level at Long and Extreme Ranges.

2: -1 TN at Long and Extreme Ranges, -1 Damage Level at Long Range, -2 Damage Levels at Extreme Range

3: -1 TN at Long Range, -2 TN at Extreme Range, -1 Damage Level at Medium and Long Ranges, -2 Damage Levels at Extreme Range

4: -1 TN at Medium Range, -2 TN at Long and Extreme Ranges, -1 Damage Level at Medium Range, -2 Damage Levels at Long and Extreme Ranges.

Posted by: Ecclesiastes Oct 28 2004, 07:07 PM

You mean there are people who actually use shot rounds?

Posted by: Grimtooth Oct 28 2004, 07:10 PM

yeah.

Gangers who are low on money and given certain availability levels to abide by.

Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Oct 28 2004, 07:11 PM

I always just said that it expands once and only once. Otherwise, as we all know, a burstfire shotgun, choke 2, base damage 8S, lays down a circle of 9D devastation that's FIVE METERS across with -2 to the target number at a range of four meters.

Wait...except it's flechette damage, isn't it? Anyway, it's absurd.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 28 2004, 07:27 PM

A few threads on shotguns, full of house rule suggestions:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=80
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=2316
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=3126
You can find lots more where those came from with the Search function.

Posted by: Wireknight Oct 28 2004, 07:35 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

There are so many things wrong with this that I feel compelled to post.

1. Stun shells are rubber slugs, not rubber shot, so spread rules do not apply.

2. Even if spread rules did apply, the base damage would be 8S Stun(-2 Power, Stun Rounds), -1 per meter of spread, to a grand total of -1S Stun(2S Stun) damage at 90 meters.

I don't know how you could knock an opponent out, unless your skill was in the double-digits, with that kind of damage, let alone overflow them (10+Body) boxes into the physical category.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 28 2004, 07:45 PM

Shotgun stun shells are expressly called rubber pellets. Cannon Companion.

You’re right, for that particular trick I would have had to be at 70 meters and –7 TN, but with skill 7 and 7 points of combat pool, that would be an expected eleven successes from a base 2S Stun. Add possible Surprise to that…

Those of you using regular stuff can do 90/-9 as mentioned.

~J

Posted by: Wireknight Oct 28 2004, 07:48 PM

Huh, rubber pellets? That's... par for the course. My mistake. I apologize.

But still, remember that you have to actually roll a seperate attack to damage each of the targets. I doubt you could roll 7 combat pool(or more than 1 combat pool, on average) against each target, if it's a decently large(6+ individuals) group.

Posted by: Critias Oct 28 2004, 07:58 PM

QUOTE (Ecclesiastes @ Oct 28 2004, 02:07 PM)

You mean there are people who actually use shot rounds?

Try using buckshot sometime, seriously. Get a few of your shotgun-toting friends to do the same. You'll enjoy it.

If you have a group of people who use shot rounds together, and all aim for the same general area? You can wipe out fairly heavily armored enemies, simply by hitting them over and over again (two shots each, or even two BURSTS each, with multiple characters) with a low TN (remember ever -1 power is also a -1 TN) and a decent combat pool investment (to make sure you get insane successes). Sure, most of them are soaking at TN 2 -- but you're hitting them for Serious base damage, over and over again, and firing with a very low TN each time, and hitting more than one with each action, which means you'll come out ahead.

It works.

Seriously.

Here's the fight that made me realize it:

In one game of mine, the characters were very limited during creation and were IRA-style Rebels of the Spire, in Portland. They were stuck with lower than normal creation points, very limited availability on weapons or cyber/bio, and had to rationalize pretty much any combat skill they had above a 3 or so. Four of them had shotguns -- off the rack, nothing special, no modifications, Wal-Mart style crappy pump action shotguns (no burst fire, etc). Defiance T-250 stats, I think. Or maybe the Remington one.

So, still with me? A bunch of guys with no cyber or bioware, a four or maybe a five in their chosen combat skill, and a bunch of off-the-rack shotguns, all packing pellets. Low skill, cheap gun, the "weak" ammo.

Using those shotguns, they wiped out a 6-man "Tir Peace Force" patrol on foot in less than a combat round. These NPCs weren't exactly badasses, but they had 5 or 6 soak dice, 5/3 rating armored camo on, decent CP, and two of them had init augmentation. Not one of them survived the hellacious blasts of double-tap shotgun blasts.

The way the PC's overlapped their blasts, they were all hitting 4 of these NPCs (twice, once per each simple action), all shooting at TN 2 (not because I forgot some vision mod, or they had smartlinks or laser sights, or anything, but because of the crazy shotgun spread making up for all that), divvying up their Combat Pool between each shot, rolling about 6 dice. Think about it. Serious base damage, ~5 successes, twice...overlapping to several NPCs per shot, multiplied by each PC with a shotgun...

It was a mess. A horrible, insanely-broken-rules, mess.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 28 2004, 08:03 PM

Ah, hadn't noticed that. I think there were about six of them, and IIRC I had nine combat pool to throw, so half would been taking ~6 successes and the other half ~7 on average. Since there were no Trolls, that would have at the very least eaten all of their combat pool, at which point my second shot would have arrived…

~J

Posted by: The Jopp Oct 28 2004, 09:04 PM

We came up with a somewhat functional solution. A character using a shotgun (shot) ignore the TN modification for shooting at ranges above short, so no +TN for shooting, just the standard 4+ and other modifications.

The power of the attack is reduced by -0 / -2 / -4 / -6 for each range setting. (HOW much power would really exist after 100 meters?)

Choke is a bit trickier, after all, shotguns DO have a choke setting and I wouldn't be surprised if they have a specialized barrel that have an built-in choke unlike shotguns of today, but to have between 1-10 is a bit extreme).

Choke 3 (standard): 5
Choke 2: 10 (Power INCREASE by +1/range due to more focused shot)
Choke 1: 20 (As above but with a +2/range)

So, a runner firing with a choke setting of 1 would have a very tight spread and hit a relatively small area and gain the following attack Short: +2 / Medium: 0 / Long: -2 / Extreme: -4

Posted by: ShadowGhost Oct 28 2004, 09:57 PM

When using spread, if the power of a weapon is reduced to 0 (-1 for every meter of spread), it does no damage. Period.

And with using shot, you double either impact, or ballistic armor against the damage before rolling it off.

And, if you're shooting at multiple targets, the ones in back get extra dice (how man is determined by GM) to roll damage resistance with, to represent the fact that the folks in front are absorbing some of the shot.

However, it is stupid that the power goes down, and not the damage level, so at 100 M you're still doing deadly damage with 7 meters of spread.

We houserule it that for every 3 meters of spread, the damage level is reduced by one level, permanently, and cannot be staged up with extra successes. Net successes must still be rolled off by the defender before staging damage down.

And we houserule that you cannot call a shot with shot rounds.

This still means shotguns are deadly at close range, and can still do damage at extremem range, just nowhere near as much.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 28 2004, 10:04 PM

Shotguns are orders of magnitude more deadly at their extreme range than they are point-blank. With fourteen dice against TN 4 I'm getting seven successes and they're at (IIRC) +1 to dodge. With fourteen dice against TN 2 (full spread) I'm getting eleven successes and they're at +9 to dodge. Non-hardened armor is irrelevant since the power is already 2.

Want some modifiers? Minimal Light, no vision mods or even vismag. TN 10 for point-blank, while the full spread is at TN 4.

Incidentally, how many extra body dice isn't up to the GM. It's +1 per person betwixt gun and them. The GM can overrule that, but they can also make the moon blow up if they feel like it.

~J

Posted by: ShadowGhost Oct 28 2004, 10:47 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Incidentally, how many extra body dice isn't up to the GM. It's +1 per person betwixt gun and them. The GM can overrule that, but they can also make the moon blow up if they feel like it.

~J

Thanks for clarifying - I don't have access to my books for another week or so so I couldn't look it up to be sure.

We also house rule that cover adds extra dice for rolling off damage, on top of TN modifiers for the attacker for the defender having cover.

Posted by: GoldenAri Oct 28 2004, 10:49 PM

QUOTE

Shotguns are orders of magnitude more deadly at their extreme range than they are point-blank. With fourteen dice against TN 4 I'm getting seven successes and they're at (IIRC) +1 to dodge.

Actually they are getting a +1 to dodge for every meter spread. So at extreme range not only do you have to soak something that's staged up 3 or 4 times but it's impossible to dodge as well.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 28 2004, 11:37 PM

That's for point-blank, not max spread. I was comparing the two

~J

Posted by: toturi Oct 29 2004, 12:31 AM

And they get an additional die for Damage Resistance for any other targets between them and the shotgun.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2004, 12:33 AM

Single-target example, and we already cited that rule above.

~J

Posted by: toturi Oct 29 2004, 12:55 AM

Ahhh, but every centimeter of dirt between you and the gun is a valid target!

Posted by: Wireknight Oct 29 2004, 05:27 AM

I'd say that the TN# penalty to dodge a shotgun blast should top out at +4 or so. I mean, it's +4 TN# to dodge area-effect attacks like elemental manipulation spells and grenades. I doubt even a shotgun at full spread is going to be projecting as much doom and suffering as your average fragmentation grenade within blast radius.