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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Astral Melee & Sorcery
Posted by: Stumps Oct 29 2004, 07:58 AM
SR3, Astral Combat Tests, p 174
"Use the melee combat rules (p 120) to make attacks. The character may attack using an armed combat skill if armed with a weapon focus, Unarmed Combat if not, or Sorcery in place of either skill."
"Anyone with Magic 1 can use the skill while fighting on the astral anyway. If anything, that should be split into a new skill and to this day I honestly don't know why it's covered by Sorcery."
This discussion will concentrate on the issue presented posing that Sorcery is, not only a little confusing of a choice, but also inconsistent with the rest of the rules when used as an Astral Melee substitute.
There are two questions, at least, that should be asked:
1) Should Sorcery even exist as an Astral Melee variant skill at all? Why/Why not?
2) Should Astral Melee have a seperate listing of the mundane melee skills?(perhaps like B/R skills) Why/Why not?
Posted by: OurTeam Oct 29 2004, 08:15 AM
It seems strange to me to use Sorcery Skill for Astral Combat, but then I've never been in Astral Space.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 29 2004, 08:38 AM
I think of using sorcery for astral combat as being essentially the same sort of thing, conceptually, as a decker using computer skill to improvise an attack. You are applying your understanding of mana to weild it in its raw form against an opponent. You can't do anything fancy-shmancy, like produce physical effects or cause damage over an area or whathaveyou, but you can bring on the hurt to something astrally active.
Posted by: OurTeam Oct 29 2004, 08:39 AM
I like that, Jason. That helps explain why an allocation of Sorcery dice to Astral Combat means that you have less ability (fewer dice) to manipulate mana for spellcasting. You're busy manipulating mana to thwack someone.
Posted by: Stumps Oct 29 2004, 10:06 AM
Yes it would explain that.
So it makes good sense the way they have it by the conversation so far.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2004, 11:59 AM
That idea breaks down somewhat when you realize that astral attacks don't cause drain (unless I'm badly misremembering).
~J
Posted by: Stumps Oct 29 2004, 12:07 PM
I don't think I'm getting you clearly. Could you go into a little (not a pluthera of detail yet) more detail and explain where exactly not having any drain but using your Sorcery skill as Astral Melee attacks runs into a problem?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2004, 12:11 PM
If you're creating an attack on-the-fly through manipulation of mana, it presumably should have drain much the same as every other direct manipulation of mana.
~J
Posted by: Stumps Oct 29 2004, 12:17 PM
ouch. I think that might have been left out because it would murder the user, and because mundanes use their Combat Pool and suffer no drain and have no real way to actually suffer that drain either.
Making a drain on it would make magic users have a dis-advantage in an area where they should be excelling.
Posted by: GoldenAri Oct 29 2004, 12:25 PM
Or it would make him actually use a combat skill to fight on the astral. Just because your incredibly good at mana manipulation doesn't mean your an excellent fighter. Thus you have 2 option. Invest in being really good at fighting, or fire hose them with mana. But like any other use of sorcery it should have a drain code, it doesn't have to be crippling but should make them think twice on it.
Posted by: Stumps Oct 29 2004, 12:28 PM
under that logic, we'd have to make deckers take melee skills just to battle in the matrix. (well...you get the idea anyways)
Astral has nothing to do with your physical world abilitiy to fight.
A quadriplegic could be an awsome Astral Warrior.
| QUOTE |
| or fire hose them with mana |
you can't cast spells in the Astral.
Posted by: Stumps Oct 29 2004, 12:31 PM
I do think that if an alternative is posed, it would be a category of Astral Unarmed combat and Focus (armed) Combat.
Posted by: GoldenAri Oct 29 2004, 12:33 PM
We do. He takes combat program, which he must then execute using his computer skill.
There's nothing in what I said that stops a quadriplegics from being awesome warriors on the astral. All they need to do is project and study with their master while manifest, or even purely on the astral itself.
Posted by: Stumps Oct 29 2004, 12:35 PM
| QUOTE |
| But like any other use of sorcery it should have a drain code |
The problem is that
A) the sorcery skill here isn't being used to cast anything. It's actually just being used to tell you how many dice you get to roll for Melee Attacking.
B) Saying that magic users have a drain for Melee Attacking (if Sorcery were to be drained for melee attacks astrally), the mundane characters would surely win because the magic users would be taking extra damage from attacking while the mundanes wouldn't be taking any drain because they are using a Combat Pool instead of Sorcery and besides that, the mundanes have no way of being drained.
It offsets the balance.
Posted by: Stumps Oct 29 2004, 12:36 PM
| QUOTE (GoldenAri @ Oct 29 2004, 12:33 PM) |
| We do. He takes combat program, which he must then execute using his computer skill. There's nothing in what I said that stops a quadriplegics from being awesome warriors on the astral. All they need to do is project and study with their master while manifest, or even purely on the astral itself. |
That would be as I was suggesting:
a category of Astral Unarmed combat and Focus (armed) Combat
Otherwise, joe Mundane with an Unarmed of 6 would kick some serious ass in the Astral while not having any magical ability other than Astral Perception.
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Oct 29 2004, 12:37 PM
Howabout as a drain code for it. The amount of Sorcery dice used/2 M ?i was thinking stun but slinging spells on astral cause's physical......
Posted by: Stumps Oct 29 2004, 12:39 PM
Drain is a bad idea.
Why? because it's not universally a penalty to ALL characters who can go Astral.
I would rather see Sorcery removed from the options and replaced with Astral Melee skills than introduce a Drain system for Astral Melee ONLY to mages and Adepts!
Posted by: Stumps Oct 29 2004, 12:45 PM
ok...firstly.
I should correct the impression I'm giving with "mundane".
I'm reffering to Adepts. Sorry for the confusion.
This whole Sorcery thing really only applies to Adpets directly anyway because they are the ones who are specifically cited as being able to use Sorcery for only one reason. Astral Combat.
Adepts cannot receive Drain because they don't cast spells so the Drain idea doesn't really work without re-writing the Adepts.
Posted by: GoldenAri Oct 29 2004, 12:55 PM
And who else other than mages uses sorcery for fighting on the astral? Spirits and dual-natured beasts all use unarmed combat. So a mage can do what everyone else does and learn to fight (be that through an Astral Melee skill or through unarmed combat or whatever) or he can try and ad-hoc use sorcery and hurt himself a little.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 29 2004, 02:20 PM
Astral Combat (Willpower)
The Astral Combat skill allows a character to fight while astrally projecting. Only characters capable of using astral perception/projection or those who are dual-natured can learn this skill.
Default: Attribute, Sorcery.
Specializations: Physical attacks, Mental attacks.
Errata: Eliminate all references of the Sorcery skill being used for astral combat and replace them with the Astral Combat skill.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2004, 03:01 PM
| QUOTE (Stumps) |
| you can't cast spells in the Astral. |
Er, yes, you most expressly can. The drain is all Physical, though.
~J
Posted by: Brazila Oct 29 2004, 03:13 PM
I don't think drain is a good idea for astral combat, in most instances I shy away from anything that adds more rolls on every action taken. I have always thought that sorcery was an odd choice for astral combat. I understand the concept that a mage should be able to fight on the astral, even if they can't on the physical, but not via Sorcery. I mean shouldn't why is it linked to Sorcery? It seems silly that someone who only does conjuring but is often active on the astral would be less capable there. I don' t know if it should be a seperate skill, as I already think skill points often feel like they are spread a little thin. Maybe It shoulld just be based on magic rating? That way you could say astral pool can't be used, but the increase in Magic via each initiation would add to it. I would say that a Power focus would not add to Magic rating for this, but a weapon focus would. Probably needs to be thought out more, but that is just an idea. Plus, it would help curb cybered mages, since the lower essence score would make them less powerful on the astral.
Posted by: Erebus Oct 29 2004, 03:52 PM
| QUOTE (Stumps) |
| There are two questions, at least, that should be asked: 1) Should Sorcery even exist as an Astral Melee variant skill at all? Why/Why not? 2) Should Astral Melee have a seperate listing of the mundane melee skills?(perhaps like B/R skills) Why/Why not? |
1. I think Sorcery is a perfect substitute. Sorcery is the ability to manipulate mana. Mana is the 'stuff' of the Astral. A person skilled in Sorcery doesn't need to rely upon his 'physical' abilities in order to be effective in astral space.
2. No. Dual natured beings ARE fighting with their physical skills. Their physical selves and their Astral selves overlap. Abilities of one translate directly to the abilities of the other.
As far as drain is concerned... Drain is used for manipulating mana into spells.. that is not what is happening with Astral Combat (unless they cast a spell). Astral Combat with Sorcery is much more subtle and far less demanding than actual spell-casting.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2004, 03:55 PM
It's not just spells, summoning causes drain too.
~J
Posted by: GoldenAri Oct 29 2004, 04:14 PM
Actually I do like that fighting with your magic rating, or maybe essence. That would level the playing field. If fighting on the astral really has nothing to do with your physical combat abilities.
I'd even allow weapon and power foci to add to this, or maybe just augment your astral combat pool.
Posted by: LinaInverse Oct 29 2004, 04:17 PM
As some have pointed out, it's just flat out irrational to have Sorcery drain the users in Astral Combat. Basically doing this, the very people who should excel in this environment are penalized while mundanes are not.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 29 2004, 04:18 PM
Eh, I guess the drain thing just doesnt bother me much.
Pretend explanation I just made up: You aren't channeling magic through yourself, you're weilding ambient mana in a rudimentary way. Drain comes from channeling mana, as is evidenced by every other drain-causing use of magic. Those forms of magic require a finer degree of mana control, which is why you have to use your body as a conduit and suffer drain.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2004, 04:22 PM
| QUOTE (LinaInverse) |
| As some have pointed out, it's just flat out irrational to have Sorcery drain the users in Astral Combat. Basically doing this, the very people who should excel in this environment are penalized while mundanes are not. |
Why on earth should a visitor (projecting mage) excel at things on the Astral as compared to someone who spends their life there (dual-natured critter)?
~J
Posted by: Erebus Oct 29 2004, 04:27 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
Why on earth should a visitor (projecting mage) excel at things on the Astral as compared to someone who spends their life there (dual-natured critter)? ~J |
Dual-Natured creatures are bound by both astral AND physical law.
Projecting Mages are only bound by astral law.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 29 2004, 04:32 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 29 2004, 11:22 AM) |
| Why on earth should a visitor (projecting mage) excel at things on the Astral as compared to someone who spends their life there (dual-natured critter)? ~J |
Because those things have never been trained how to use the ambient mana to their advantage. Thats like giving an ally spirit unarmed combat: 6 and then wondering why something that has lived on the physical plane for its entire life, but only has an unarmed combat skill of 3, can't fight it effectively. Afterall, the ally is an astral being that is only a visitor to the physical plane.
Posted by: GoldenAri Oct 29 2004, 04:39 PM
| QUOTE |
| Pretend explanation I just made up: You aren't channeling magic through yourself, you're weilding ambient mana in a rudimentary way. Drain comes from channeling mana, as is evidenced by every other drain-causing use of magic. Those forms of magic require a finer degree of mana control, which is why you have to use your body as a conduit and suffer drain. |
I'll give you that this is probably what the writers were thinking when they decided to let mages use sorcery for fighting. By that rationale a mage shouldn't take drain while casting spells on the astral. Why draw it through you when you can craft it using the ambient mana?
(I'm not picking on you Jason, I know you haven't had a chance to think it through).
| QUOTE |
Dual-Natured creatures are bound by both astral AND physical law. |
Thus a Astrally perceiving mage couldn't use Sorcery to combat an astral foe.
Posted by: Erebus Oct 29 2004, 04:41 PM
| QUOTE (GoldenAri) | ||
Thus a Astrally perceiving mage couldn't use Sorcery to combat an astral foe. |
Why not? He can cast spells on either. He can use sorcery on either.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2004, 04:43 PM
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
| Because those things have never been trained how to use the ambient mana to their advantage. |
Right. Training. Not because the character type "should" excel.
~J
Posted by: GoldenAri Oct 29 2004, 04:43 PM
I'm not saying he can't cast spells at him. But just engaging him in basic astral combat while perceiving makes nosense. As you said, he's bound by both the physical and astral.
Posted by: Erebus Oct 29 2004, 04:49 PM
| QUOTE (GoldenAri @ Oct 29 2004, 11:43 AM) |
| I'm not saying he can't cast spells at him. But just engaging him in basic astral combat while perceiving makes nosense. As you said, he's bound by both the physical and astral. |
Casting spells isn't melee combat though. Thats ranged combat.
I think I see where your coming from. In my mind using sorcery as astral melee doesn't have to involve any physical movement.
You can think of it as the mage changing his astral self to be caustic to the spirit thats attempting to melee him. The creature goes to strike but stops just short of damaging the mage due to the intense pain the mage's alterations cause. Or something similar.
The important part is the mage is using his *skill* at manipulating mana to counter or even initiate melee combat against another astral form.
He could just as easily pull out a weapon focus and go house as well, but mage's who have no physical combat skills should still be able to kick ass and take names against non-physical entities since its what they know.
Posted by: GoldenAri Oct 29 2004, 04:56 PM
That sounds more like a metamagical effect, and I'd be fine if that's how it worked. But it seems odd to me that someone who is completely untrained in combat but really good at doing something unrelated to combat can beat the snot out of someone who is actually trained to fight, or a preditory animal in some cases. Also it leaves the conjuring adept out in the cold.
It's like saying I'm really good at underwater combat because I'm a great swimmer (<- analogy just popped in my head, but I'm going to try and run with it).
Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 29 2004, 04:57 PM
| QUOTE (GoldenAri) | ||
I'll give you that this is probably what the writers were thinking when they decided to let mages use sorcery for fighting. By that rationale a mage shouldn't take drain while casting spells on the astral. Why draw it through you when you can craft it using the ambient mana? (I'm not picking on you Jason, I know you haven't had a chance to think it through). |
I dont feel as if you are picking on me, so dont worry. I maintain that, for me, personally, it just doesnt matter... but this isnt a particularly good "disproof" of that explanation I made up, so I'll go ahead and address it anyway.
All spells have to be channeled through the casting mage's body - be it his physical body or his astral form. Why? Well, the obvious answer is "thats how theyre trained to do it." But, under the interpretation I proposed, the act of channeling it through their form is what allows the precise control required. Weilding ambient mana directly isnt something that can be done with finesse, even when you are astrally projecting. So even projecting mages still have to bring the magic through themselves in order to control it sufficiently to produce a spell effect. Thus, drain.
Posted by: Erebus Oct 29 2004, 05:03 PM
| QUOTE (GoldenAri @ Oct 29 2004, 11:56 AM) |
| That sounds more like a metamagical effect, and I'd be fine if that's how it worked. But it seems odd to me that someone who is completely untrained in combat but really good at doing something unrelated to combat can beat the snot out of someone who is actually trained to fight, or a preditory animal in some cases. Also it leaves the conjuring adept out in the cold. It's like saying I'm really good at underwater combat because I'm a great swimmer (<- analogy just popped in my head, but I'm going to try and run with it). |
The key though is that Astral combat really has no direct relation to physical combat.
Those who are dual natured are bound by their physical sides as well so they must fight physically to some extent even astrally. (Unless thay are trained to fight only astrally via sorcery.)
Its easier to visualize this if you look at the astral side of things first. Two mages both astrally projecting (one in tokyo, one in seattle) meet over midway to have a battle royal. Physicallity or even physical ability have absolutely nothing to do with how the fight will turn out. Its a battle of wills.
Now, if we take the winner of that battle and send him back to his body, and once he gets there he realizes he's been followed by the other mages ally spirit, now that he's merely percieving instead of projecting shouldn't mean he's any less capable of defending himself on the astral. (Initiative issues aside).
Posted by: GoldenAri Oct 29 2004, 05:13 PM
If he was still astrally projecting then yes, I'd agree. Once he's back in his meat I've got more of a problem with this.
Though having a seperate Astral Combat skill or basing it off of magic rating still makes the most sense to me.
Would you say then that I could fight using my conjuring skill? After all that is a will linked use of mana. Hell, you could even look at it as an ham fisted application of banishing.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2004, 05:15 PM
| QUOTE (Erebus) |
| mage's who have no physical combat skills should still be able to kick ass and take names against non-physical entities since its what they know. |
While mages with no astral combat skills should get their asses kicked since it's what they don't know.
OR
have to use Sorcery and take Drain, because it's what happens when they do anything similar.
~J
Posted by: Erebus Oct 29 2004, 05:24 PM
| QUOTE (GoldenAri) |
| Would you say then that I could fight using my conjuring skill? After all that is a will linked use of mana. Hell, you could even look at it as an ham fisted application of banishing. ---------------------------- While mages with no astral combat skills should get their asses kicked since it's what they don't know. OR have to use Sorcery and take Drain, because it's what happens when they do anything similar. |
To be honest, as a GM, I could probably be talked into Conjuring instead of Sorcery in this case.
As far as drain.. yes for spells... no for astral melee. At least thats how it is for my games. They are different applications of the same skill. One requires drain, one doesn't.
Astral Melee is an application of the Sorcery (or possibly Conjuring) skill. Spells are another application. Dispelling is another. Some of those require drain checks, some don't.
Heck, I'd allow Astral Melee as a specialization of Sorcery too.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 29 2004, 08:48 PM
| QUOTE |
| Physicallity or even physical ability have absolutely nothing to do with how the fight will turn out. Its a battle of wills. |
Actually, they could use their Unarmed Combat skill (or Armed Combat with a Weapon Foci). Sorcery as melee is a bonus option, a way around requiring mages purchase a melee skill to combat Wards, Spirits, and other astral encounters.
I agree with Doctor Funk on this one. Astral Combat should be its own skill, and one that grants maneuvers to make it worth while (Close Combat, Focus Power, Evasion, Zoning, Fly By Attack).
Fly By Attack allows a projecting combatant to add Astral Combat Pool dice in a surprise test that they initiate.
Posted by: kevyn668 Oct 30 2004, 02:16 AM
I may be coming on late here but I don't like the idea of drain for astral combat. By the canon (AFAIK) there are no rules extended melee combat. In theory, as long as you were not rendered dead or unconcious, you could engage in melee combat until the cows come home. Or you succumbed to the efects of sleep deprevation. (Are there rules for that?)
I kinda like Doc's MA rules for astral combat but that's just one more skill that a mage would have to pump points (BPs or KPs) into.
edit: if ain't broke don't fix it. (even it don't make sense 
)
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 30 2004, 02:53 AM
Only if he wants to excel at astral combat. You'll note that they can still default to Sorcery if absolutely necessary. The change just makes sure that a studious type isn't the Bruce Lee of the astral plane without specifically training to be, though they are more than capable of defending themselves.
Posted by: kevyn668 Oct 30 2004, 03:04 AM
I see your point. Unfortunately I suffer from a rare form of "Reverse Munchkism" wherein I crunch those numbers to get the best well rounded char I can. I have enough trouble scaring up points for unarmed combat, let alone astral combat.
That being said, I'm already thinking about an astral martial artist character...*starts crunching numbers*
Posted by: toturi Oct 30 2004, 03:08 AM
| QUOTE (kevyn668) |
| I see your point. Unfortunately I suffer from a rare form of "Reverse Munchkism" wherein I crunch those numbers to get the best well rounded char I can. I have enough trouble scaring up points for unarmed combat, let alone astral combat. That being said, I'm already thinking about an astral martial artist character...*starts crunching numbers* |
Ahhh, I was once infected with that bug too... Come to think of it, I am still infected
.You are suffering from the Maximus Pointus Effecious strain of Munchkinitis.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 30 2004, 03:10 AM
Again, you realize that you don't need Astral Combat if you have Unarmed Combat/Martial Arts, right? It's basically just an option for weak magicians (which is why it's linked to Willpower instead of Strength). Adepts will usually find it useless compared to other options... especially those who can't project. And for mages, it's like Underwater Combat for mundanes; useful if you regularly engage in underwater combat, but you can live without it.
Posted by: kevyn668 Oct 30 2004, 03:18 AM
| QUOTE |
| You are suffering from the Maximus Pointus Effecious strain of Munchkinitis. |
Ahhhh, I see. That does make sense. Is there any cure? Or at least a treatment? (Other than the limited satisfaction of a spellslinging, sharpshooting, hard hitting human character made within the limits of the character creation rules w/o taking more than 4 points of edges/flaws?)
Am I doomed?
| QUOTE |
| Doctor Funkenstein Posted on Oct 29 2004, 11:10 PM Again, you realize that you don't need Astral Combat if you have Unarmed Combat/Martial Arts, right? It's basically just an option for weak magicians (which is why it's linked to Willpower instead of Strength). Adepts will usually find it useless compared to other options... especially those who can't project. And for mages, it's like Underwater Combat for mundanes; useful if you regularly engage in underwater combat, but you can live without it. |
Do-ugh! Yep. You're right. Got ahead of myself. Two months away from the 'Shock and I'm right back into my old habits of "Post first. Analyze later."
Sorry.
Posted by: Stumps Oct 30 2004, 05:24 AM
I like Doc's idea. I have since he mentioned it in the other Thread.
I'm glad to see this thread is going much smoother than the other one was.
It would be fun to actually make a character who was bent on kicking ass souly in the Astral Combat.
Could be some interesting things there.
Here's a question I have though.
It reads that Dual-Natured and the like can use their Combat Pool in the Astral.
Are we going to let the mage use their Magic Pool (or other optional pools? don't think spell would work here rationally, but maybe??) in the Astral.
Also...something else cocks my head as strange.
(was going to post it here, but realized it's too far off topic to post here.
instead, http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=ST&f=7&t=6063)
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 30 2004, 05:27 AM
SR3 Page 44. There's an explicitly defined astral combat pool.
~J
Posted by: Stumps Oct 30 2004, 05:59 AM
I got that, thanks for the reference...my question was rather that since the Combat Pool can be used in the Astral Plane (aside from an Astral Pool aparently), will the Mages get another Pool?
Posted by: Stumps Oct 30 2004, 06:06 AM
Actually...
SR3, p44, Astral Combat Pool:"...Because the physical Attribute of Quickness does not exist on the astral, Astral Combat Pool is determined by adding Intelligencce plus Willpower plus Charisma, divided by 2, and rounded down."
SR3, p174, Astral Combat Tests:"Astrally perceiving characters and other dual being use their normal physical Attributes, skills and Combat Pool in astral combat."
um...err...That is horribly inconsistant with itself IMO.
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 30 2004, 06:11 AM
The first refers to astral projection.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 30 2004, 06:11 AM
No its not. Astral combat pool is used for projecting mages. Percieving mages and other dual-natured beings use their normal combat pool. It seems pretty explicit to me.
Posted by: Stumps Oct 30 2004, 08:00 AM
But the wierd part isn't WHO uses WHICH pool.
It's that it plainly says that "the physical Attribute of Quickness does not exist on the astral", but says "Astrally perceiving characters and other dual beings (can) use (their) Combat Pool"
Combat Pool: (Quickness + Intelligence + Will) / 2
"Astrally perceiving characters use (their) Combat Pool (for Astral Combat Tests even though) the physical Attribute of Quickness does not exist on the astral"
*cocks head sideways* huh??
It would make more sense if they used an Astral Pool but were limited to their Physical limitations regardless how great the roll came out.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 30 2004, 08:11 AM
Youre really just making it more complicated than it is. No physical attributes exist on the astral... its the astral. So a purely astral being does not have a quickness score, and, thus, it does not make sense for a purely astral being to be using a normal combat pool. Hence, an astral combat pool exists.
Basic rules:
- if the being is mundane or dual-natured, use combat pool, since quickness does indeed exist on the physical plane, and such beings are limited (or, in some cases, actually empowered) by their physical natures.
- if the being lacks a physical body, and, thus, lacks the quickness attribute used to calculate normal combat pool, use the astral combat pool.
... And, really, that's it. Its not contradictory, nor is it particularly confusing.
Note, however, that the "Astral pool" and the "astral combat pool" are two completely separate pools.
Posted by: Stumps Oct 30 2004, 09:00 AM
Ah, further reading reveals that you are correct and that the rules are consistent with themselves when you state what you are saying and read SR3, p263, Spirits & Dragons/Combat/Dice Pools/Combat Pool, which states that a Spirit that materializes in the Physical form recieves a Combat Pool just like NPC's calculated from their Attributes (that were made from their Essence).
It makes sense. I wasn't saying that what the aim of the system was doing didn't make sense.
Just that it read like a counter-logic was happening with saying that something doesn't exist in a certain place but these guys can use it there.
The reason, it appears, is because they are limited to their physical ability and thus their Astral Combat Pool would be the same as their Combat Pool if it were made as a seperate pool, so to make another for them and guidlines to it's ability being limited to their physical capabilities would be redundant and overly complex to reach the same end.
Clear now! Thanks
Posted by: Stumps Oct 30 2004, 09:03 AM
Still on the table however is the Sorcery option for Astral Perception as an alternative Pool for Astral Combat.
Doc's idea seems good.
Any comments further on that, or has everyone pretty much thought that Doc's idea works?
Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 30 2004, 09:28 AM
Well, I remain unswayed in my opinion that the system is fine as is and doesnt need changing. However, Dr F's proposition to simply create a separate astral combat skill is what I would do if I were to suddenly decide that I have stopped liking the astral combat use of sorcery.
Posted by: Stumps Oct 30 2004, 10:47 AM
I think the issue that he has with it is that it makes the Magician automatically good at Astral Combat just because they are good at Sorcery which may or may not be the case at all.
So they can fling spells...ok, does that mean they have also mastered Astrally kicking the crap out of a Spirit with their astral fist. Maybe, but it may also not be the case.
If we were discussing philosphy this would be a falacy to claim that one thing is an absolute because of it's relation to another thing that is an absolute.
(S = good at Sorcery, A = good at Astral Combat, -> = then, <> = possibly true)
S -> A is a falacy
S -> <>A is not a falacy
(For a read up on Philosophical forumla like that above, http://forums.philosophyforums.com/showthread.php?t=6816)
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 30 2004, 04:44 PM
Actually I dislike it because it doesn't make sense for Sorcery (as opposed to Conjuring, Enchanting, or any other magical skill that includes the manipulation of mana and astral space in one form or another) to be a Combat Skill in addition to a Magical Skill while none of the others are.
Posted by: Stumps Oct 30 2004, 04:51 PM
That is true in it's own right, but I really do see it as a question of making sense with the whole ordeal of saying that because someone can cast a spell, they can astraly fight well...that doesn't make sense to me at all.
Nowhere else in the game is an assumption made like that.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 30 2004, 04:54 PM
Computers comes close, but at least it's consistant. Even then, it all revolves around your ability to program on the fly and speed at running programs to do your bidding, not (meta)physically swinging a sword or throwing a punch.
Posted by: Stumps Oct 30 2004, 05:16 PM
Yep...so I think I'd agree that Astral Combat is a good addition in place of Sorcery for such an Astral Combat Skill that covers the ability to fight in the astral plane.
It would also remove the silly happening of Adepts having Sorcery when they can't cast magic just so they can use it for astral combat.
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