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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Astral perception vs. physical stealth

Posted by: Mr.Cato Oct 29 2004, 12:26 PM

Hi all,

I've been playing SR since first edition, and I just found Dumpshock today. Can't say I have been looking too hard

Spending some hours looking around, reading and searching I want to bring something that has bothered me awhile. Tell me if it has been discussed here before (and where).

I play a mage I have had since the end of first edition. He has survived many teamates.. gotta love that levitate spell. Anywho.. Confronting invisble and /or stealthing enemies it has been discused in my group:

Mundanes take a perception check to notice stealthing enemies.
Mundanes check as pr. dection spells to see invisible enemies (can't remember what, don't have my books here)

With astral access, invisibility has no effect, right?
.. but can they still hide using stealth? and would that force me to roll a preception with the +2 penalty for preciving astrally?

further on, the mage would be able to cast a spell at the invisible enemy while using astral preception. Would the +2 penalty apply here?

the rule books are not really specific on this..

thanks for any clearifications and have fun out there..

Posted by: Backgammon Oct 29 2004, 12:55 PM

1) On the subject of Astral stealth, no the books aren't very clear, but you can check out deductions I recently made about it http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=5666

2)

QUOTE

Mundanes check as pr. dection spells to see invisible enemies (can't remember what, don't have my books here)

What? That must be a house rule.

3)

QUOTE

further on, the mage would be able to cast a spell at the invisible enemy while using astral preception. Would the +2 penalty apply here?

The +2 applies only to non-magical activities. Casting a spell while astrally perceiving imposes no +2 modifier.

Posted by: Mr.Cato Oct 29 2004, 01:08 PM

thanks backgammon,

I'm sorry I made a mistake... I meant to say the mundanes check as pr. ILLUSION spell rules. E.g. they get a Int (I think it is) vs. Force to beat number of casting sucesses. ... to beat the illusion.

ok so the +2 is only to non-magical activities. good....

I read the thread you mention. But I was concerned wether you could hide physically from and astral preceiving/projecting mage.

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 29 2004, 01:16 PM

QUOTE (Mr.Cato)

Mundanes check as pr. dection spells to see invisible enemies

Not as per detection spells, it's as per illusion spells. Mundanes get to resist the Illusion spell with Intelligence. Equal or greater number of successes and they see the spell for what it is. (Formerly you needed a greater number of successes, but this was corrected in the 13th printing such that an equal number of successes also resists the spell.)

QUOTE (Mr.Cato)

With astral access, invisibility has no effect, right?

Better than no effect, as the astral plane is lit with the auras of living creatures and magical things, such as spells. Think of the Invisibility Spell as being a small lightbulb in Astral Space.

QUOTE (Mr.Cato)

.. but can they still hide using stealth? and would that force me to roll a preception with the +2 penalty for preciving astrally?

They can certainly hide. Hiding in living material (trees, vines, mold, mushrooms, cattle) makes them harder to see, because of all the glowing auras around them. The +2 penalty is for doing purely mundane things while astrally perceiving. I don't think of looking around in astral space as being a mundane activity.

QUOTE (Mr.Cato)

further on, the mage would be able to cast a spell at the invisible enemy while using astral preception. Would the +2 penalty apply here?

Easy to cast. No penalty, as it's not a mundane activity.

Posted by: Mr.Cato Oct 29 2004, 02:12 PM

and, thank you OurTeam

I take it that a mundane hiding from and astrally preciving mage has to take his open stealth test as normaly.
.. using normal stealth
.. not modified wether he has spells active on him or not.

walls and other ianimate would still serve to hide behind.

I'm really apreciate this forum as I and the GM are the only people in our group really doing our homework.

Posted by: DarkShade Oct 29 2004, 02:23 PM

canon: stealth does work vs perceiving astrally.
however, there are several caveats.. depends how your group sees astral auras.. which is not clearly described by canon so it ends up heavily houseruled.
as an example in our group we took from the books that auras glow, more so the more essence they have. depending on the area you are at..
so hiding in astral is completely different than hiding in the physical plane, someone could be in plain view physically but 100% hidden astrally <by fat bacteria for example> .
I HIGHLY doubt someone without astral perception could ever really learn to use stealth effectively against astrally perceiving users. SR3 doesn't really go into detail though..

btw someone mentioned around here that you don't get the +2 modifier against physical targets when astrally perceiving, where do you get that from sr3? I had understood you get a +2 to pretty much everything on the physical plane while perceiving?

DS

edit:mr cato; someone hiding would canon use his stealth, but if he has spells active those are very visible unless masked..!!

Posted by: OurTeam Oct 29 2004, 09:39 PM

QUOTE (DarkShade)

btw someone mentioned around here that you don't get the +2 modifier [when spellcasting] against physical targets when astrally perceiving, where do you get that from sr3? I had understood you get a +2 to pretty much everything on the physical plane while perceiving

Here is where it is in the book:

QUOTE (SR3.172 @ Astral Interaction, last paragraph)

Using astral perception can be distracting. Whenever you have to perform a completely mundane, non-magical task while using astral perception, you suffer a +2 target number modifier.

So it is only for purely mundane tasks on the physical plane that you have the penalty.

Posted by: gfen Oct 30 2004, 03:23 PM

I'm playing hide and seek with my friends. I hide behind trees, rocks, or in a building.

You don't see me because I have a really hot spot under a tree line, behind a rock in tall grass, right? Ollie ollie oxen free, or however that's spelt.

So, the astral plane glows with the energy of life.
Just because you're astrally perceiving doesn't mean you can see through walls.

So, here we are, having a discussion about what have you, and you're astrally perceiving. I'm in front of you, I'm a glowing blob o' aura, right? Hard to miss, even.

So, I goto my hideyhole in all my glowing blob 'o aura glory, right?

I'm under trees, they're alive. They count as cover.
I'm behind a rock, its inert and non living, but it blocks you from seeing me.
The grass is tall, it covers me.

Astral stealth shouldn't be really much different than normal stealth. All the same things apply. "But your signature extends blah centimeters from your body," you say. Yeah? So, what. Dunno 'bout you, but when I play hide and seek, I don't rely on the aura of a handy rock to extend six inches (what's that in metric, 0283028 kilometers, right?) out and obfusciate your vision.

"But, y'know, you're hiding with a gun, and watching, or something, maaaaan," Yeah. OK, fine. So my head is peaking out from the side of my rock, and you can see that glowing, but unless you're a total rules junky, the beauty of abstract games is that it just doesn't matter that much. Cause, y'know, the astral.. alive with pleasure, like a Newport, or whatever.

"Fine, but I'm gonna specialize in Stealth (5) Astral (7), explain that!" Sure. You understand the nuances of astral perception, and how to maximize that. Big deal.

"Fine, but if you're like.. stealthing from like, y'know.. a door to the car.. Or something, right? Then whatchoo hiding behind, glowboy?" Got me there! But, y'know, that abstract thing is about to bite, again. Coz, yano, stealth..more than just visibility. Being quiet, knowing how to move without presenting a target, etc. Lots of stuff in there, beyond the glowing aura bit.

There's no reason that astral perception should be the end-all in anti-stealth abilities. Its just one of many, and while you may glow like a virgin on prom night on the astral, there's no reason that you can't use all the other glowing stuff out there to your advantage either.

But that's just one man's opinion.

Except its mine. So its right.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 30 2004, 04:51 PM

Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing an Astral Stealth (Intelligence-linked) skill with both it and Stealth defaulting to and from one another. This way, mundanes using Stealth would still be sneaky sneaky on the astral but with a +2 modifer, and ditto for an astral aethernaut trying to use his roguish abilities in the physical world.

But to put it simply and to back up what several others have already said, hiding behind a tree or a rock will hide you on the astral as well as the physical. That's the point. Sure, one plane has different sources that are more suitable to hiding than the other (shadows in one, heat in the other), but they both share enough commonalities as to make it valid skill to use in both even if you don't know all the subtle nuances of one over the other.

Posted by: Mr.Cato Oct 30 2004, 07:48 PM

Yes, I think I will keep it simple and have stealth apply for mundanes hiding from astral preciving mages. Astral preception should not (for game balance) disclose all sneaky people. The astral pool should be available for the astral-preception tests. This way powerfull mages will have some advantage spotting sneakers.

Posted by: Shanshu Freeman Oct 30 2004, 09:11 PM

QUOTE (Mr.Cato)

Spending some hours looking around, reading and searching

don't have my books here

the rule books are not really specific on this..

O_o

o_O

Posted by: Arethusa Oct 30 2004, 09:24 PM

QUOTE (Mr.Cato)

That is canon, and that is really the only sanely balanced approach. The astral is pretty poorly described in canon, however, and just how a stealthy character fully concealed in the middle of the night on a bare tarmac is also fully concealed on the astral will always remain a point of contention. You're better off not thinking about it too much.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 30 2004, 09:27 PM

QUOTE

...and just how a stealthy character fully concealed in the middle of the night on a bare tarmac is also fully concealed on the astral...

No more than he is in the physical world. The only thing he has to "hide" behind is the darkness which is a lighting condition, not his ability to hide. At most he can use the sneaking specialization to sneak around, but that doesn't rely on sight. Anyone who can see in the dark would see if he they looked in his general direction, just like anyone with astral perception would if they bothered to look. But if he's sneaking up on them, that means they haven't looked and they likely won't unless he messes up his approach -- his Stealth roll -- or they happen to look in his direction -- their Perception roll. Physical or astral, it doesn't matter; he just won't have the benefit of darkness against a mage's Astral Perception Tests. It could be noon on a clearly lit day and the situation would be the same.

Stealth is as abstract as the majority of the rest of the system is. Deal with it.

EDIT: I get the feeling, however, that a lot of people don't bother applying Perception modifiers to the Perception test. They just use Stealth to set the TN. That's where the problem is. Well, that and Open Tests but that's neither here nor there.

Posted by: Shanshu Freeman Oct 30 2004, 09:34 PM

does pollen have an aura?