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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ army tech

Posted by: DarkShade Oct 29 2004, 03:55 PM

useful as they describe the techs involved..

http://www.army-technology.com/new.html#projects

DS

Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Oct 29 2004, 03:58 PM

Some of that was cool, thanks.

Some of it I knew, two years in the army as a field mechanic. And don't tell me its easy, you try laying down supresive fire and getting a hummer running again. (just think to yourself, no presure...)

Posted by: Cray74 Oct 29 2004, 05:11 PM

I like the Star Streak missile. I had the impression (from articles on it I found several years ago) that it was bigger. But it can be shoulder fired.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/starstreak/starstreak8.html

And those darts are guided, not dumb hypersonic metal darts. Cool.

Posted by: DocMortand Oct 29 2004, 07:04 PM

Whoa...in browsing I found a helicopter mounted heavy machine gun pod:

http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/machine_guns/fnherstal/fnherstal5.html

wicked.

By the way, anyone know if the XM5 now used by the US military is going to end up in Shadowrun? If so, what stats would it use?

Posted by: Nath Oct 29 2004, 07:13 PM

Oh, they redesigned those websites... long time since I last used them. For those who do not already know, http://www.army-technology.com is only one of several sites. You might be interested as well by http://www.airforce-technology.com and http://www.naval-technology.com. Most people aren't interest in any of http://www.army-technology.com/links.html#other_spgmedia_web_sites (railway ? semiconductor ? packaging factories ?) but it can have its use as inspiration for various corporate business. Might be somehow used as a basis for a random generator.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 29 2004, 07:38 PM

QUOTE (DocMortand)

Whoa...in browsing I found a helicopter mounted heavy machine gun pod:

What's wicked about that? A .50BMG HMG with a decent cyclic RoF and a piddly ammo capacity. Most attack helos mount autocannons that fire far bigger rounds at far greater maximum RoFs and carry a lot more ammunition. I have no idea what use those HMPs are supposed to serve. Why not go for 1 minigun with a greater ammo cap instead? Would weigh less and take less space, and would achieve the exact same thing.

QUOTE (DocMortand)

By the way, anyone know if the XM5 now used by the US military is going to end up in Shadowrun? If so, what stats would it use?

Do you mean the XM5 Electronic Fighting Vehicle System -- which is apparently just your basic electronic warfare center on an APC chassis, currently considered by/in development for the US Army -- or do you perhaps mean the XM8 Advanced Battle Rifle which was discussed most recently http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=5609?

Posted by: mmu1 Oct 29 2004, 08:14 PM

Maybe he's talking about XM 25, one of the offspring of the now defunct OICW?

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 29 2004, 08:40 PM

MGL-12 with a Smartlink, Rangefinder and Grenadelink.

Posted by: Nath Oct 29 2004, 10:58 PM

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Oct 29 2004, 09:38 PM)

I guess Herstal first produced the 12.7mm (and 7.62) pod for customers who wished to arm transport or combat helicopters (things like Bo-105 or Kiowa) who didn't have a turret anyway. The Italian when they designed the Mangusta (the first real European attack chopper) also did not include a turret at first, and used Herstal pods as a temporary solutions when they realized in Somalia that guns were a lot more useful than missiles in your average post-Cold War peacekeeping operation. For the Tigre, the French and German were going to make more or less the same mistake (you know, "Block Fulda Gap or Die"). Both French and German anti-tanks version weren't supposed to get a gun turret. However the French recon/support version and the export version were given one, and it's likely the French will finally have turret on all their Tigre. The German, on the other hand, seemingly want to keep the door fully open for a future "sniping turret" conceived by Mauser, and will wait for it using (again) Herstal pods as a temporary solution.

Of course modular pods have a lot smaller ammo capacity than an integrated turret. Chosing a smaller caliber allows to take more ammo. Considering they're mostly used against infantry, it's not going to make a lot of difference. Besides, two .50 pods would carry a total of 500 or 800 bullets. That's not that far from the amount carried by most attack helicopters : 750 rounds for the AH-1 Cobra and South African Rooivalk 20mm gun ; 450 for the Tigre 20mm ; 320 for the Italian Mangusta 20mm ; 250 for the Mi-28 Havoc 30mm. Sure, the AH-64 Apache carries 1,200 rounds for its 30mm gun (the US Army originally only asked for 320), and the Mi-24 Hind 1,470 for its 12.7mm ; but let's face it, those machines are bulky. And the gun susually jams long before running out of ammo (the story says nobody ever managed to empty the Apache load, but the M-230 Chain Gun is still a lot more reliable than the Hind minigun, would be jamming after only 200-250 shots). In the end, weigth is a decisive factor for most militaries. Pods are nowhere as heavy as a turret. And the RoF for the Herstal HMG pods is 1,100 /min, against 650 for the Apache M-230.

Posted by: Austere Emancipator Oct 29 2004, 11:21 PM

I realized the lack of turret in several versions of the Tigre must be a major contributer here after I wrote it. What you're saying certainly makes a lot of sense, especially the bit about the temporary use by Germans.

If you're going by the Somalia example, though, you're better off with massive rates of fire and lots of ammunition. A .50BMG is far from optimal, since you're only going to cause 1 casualty per direct hit, have a single barrel weapons the size and mass of a 7.62mm minigun, and have ammunition weighing 4.5 times as much as 7.62x51mm. You still aren't going to penetrate most armored targets.

You do get quite a lot more range over the 7.62, but it seems to me a low-RoF autocannon would be a better choice at that point. A 30mm M230 cannon round is about 3 times the size and weight of a .50BMG round, and could well be considered to be well over 3 times as effective for most uses. At 60kg, the M230 isn't that much heavier than a .50BMG HMG, either -- would be interesting to know what kind of gun is hiding in that pod, if it's supposed to be capable of sustaining the 1100rpm.

As for the turret gun ammo capacities of gunships, AH-1s, AH-64s and Mi-24s is basically what I was referring to because they are the ones that see the most action and thus the ones with the most media coverage, and incidentally the ones I am most familiar with. Worth mentioning that the twin-barrel 30mm cannon versions of the Mi-24 carry 750 ready rounds. I must admit I'm surprised by the unreliability of those guns. Compared to the 30,000 mean rounds between jams on an M-134, it seems to me you got to have special skill to fuck up a minigun that bad.

In any case, when you're looking for the most "wicked" piece of military hardware, you shouldn't feel restricted by things like the size of the vehicle to carry it or operational needs or any of that stuff. For example, a 5" naval gun isn't wicked just because it's the biggest people can be bothered to put on a small frigate. A http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/images/bb-61-8505379.jpg is wicked even though it's useless and can only be found on huge, obsolete battleships.