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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Manaball
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Oct 29 2004, 05:41 PM
This is undoubtably been debated before, I think my brain is just checking out for holidays early... 
The scenario is: you cast a manaball at a target you can see inside a room. Another person you can also see is inside the Radius (your magic attribute), but outside the room. Would they still get hit with the manaball?
IN other words, I am correct in that it will effect all those you can see reguardless of where the spell originates? It's not a "mana explosion from a point" like a grenade, but more of a "instant down-pour" of harsh mana?
Thanks.
Posted by: JaronK Oct 29 2004, 05:43 PM
Right, you hit everyone you can see in the radius, regardless of terrain. It's just an "everything in this radius gets hit" spell. EMs, on the other hand, are explosions, and as such can hit folks you can't see but would be blocked by terrain as expected.
JaronK
Posted by: Erebus Oct 29 2004, 05:50 PM
| QUOTE (JaronK) |
| Right, you hit everyone you can see in the radius, regardless of terrain. It's just an "everything in this radius gets hit" spell. EMs, on the other hand, are explosions, and as such can hit folks you can't see but would be blocked by terrain as expected. JaronK |
I don't have my books handy. But to continue the example,
Say that in the room is another person hiding under a desk that the mage doesn't actually see, but is within the radius. Do they get hit?
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 29 2004, 05:50 PM
Keep in mind, that it is everyone you have LoS to in the target area. If you can see through the wall in back, those behind are valid targets. If you can't see through the wall, those behind aren't valid targets. However, the guy who is well hidden such that you didn't notice him but is in a place where you could see him easily if not for the ruthenium is also a valid target.
If there is a chance of a perception test to visually notice something in the area of effect, it's a valid target. Yes, mirrors on the other side of the area can give LoS to people behind a wall but in the area.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2004, 05:51 PM
No, the guy under the desk does not get hit.
~J
Posted by: Erebus Oct 29 2004, 05:54 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 29 2004, 12:51 PM) |
| No, the guy under the desk does not get hit. ~J |
Excellent.
So to clarify 'ball' spells... they just let you target a bunch of clumped targets who are all valid targets anyway (i.e. within LOS). Just a multi-target spell with restrictions... So, NOT a blast or "Ball" per say in your standard fantasy spell-type way.
What a misnoemer.... =)
Posted by: Critias Oct 29 2004, 05:55 PM
With Manaball, it's who you SEE, not who's "realistically" within some sort of line-of-blast from the spell's center. It's not really an explosion, like Fireball (or a grenade)...physical barriers only count if they block the caster's line of sight, the spell itself is unaffected by such mundane worries.
I almost think of it more as a spell that blasts a bunch of individual beams from the caster to everyone he sees in a certain area, instead of as an actual explosion.
Posted by: Shev Oct 29 2004, 05:58 PM
So if a mage was astrally projecting, and casts manaball on a dual-natured target, any non-dual natured targets in the affected area are still not hit becuase they are not valid targets, correct?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2004, 05:59 PM
One caveat: in keeping with Herald of Verjigorm's note, if you "don't see" the guy under the desk because you didn't notice him, not because he isn't visible to you, he still gets affected.
Shev: that is correct. The same is true if the mage is perceiving and decides to cast on the astral, which can be a good way to do selective targeting if your team is in melee with a bunch of Ghouls.
~J
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 29 2004, 06:02 PM
Manaball (and other mana type spells) can be cast on the astral by an astrally active caster. In such cases, only targets with an active astral component at the time can be hit. This includes dual natured creatures, purely astral entities, and active foci among a few others. Much like how a manaball cast on the physical plane can only affect things that have a physical presence such as metahumans in their bodies and manifesting spirits.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Oct 29 2004, 06:11 PM
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| Much like how a manaball cast on the physical plane can only affect things that have a physical presence such as metahumans in their bodies and manifesting spirits. |
Close: Materialized spirits. Manifested spirits have no actual physical presence.
~J
Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 29 2004, 06:14 PM
Weird side question: lets say an astrally percieving magecomes across the comatose body of a projecting mage. At that moment, the projecting mage is returning to his body, and sees the percieving mage. They roll initiative, and the percieving mage somehow manages to win. He casts two manabolt spells, using the rules for simultaneous spellcasting - one at the astral form of the projecting mage, and one at the projecting mage's body. Does the world explode?
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 29 2004, 06:20 PM
Drek, I usually type the right one when considering manifesting vs. materializing.
Ok, in the newest concept: no, the world does not explode. The mage takes damage from each (if they succeed) according to the rules for damage to astral form and damage to host body. (I think there's some timing rules that would be relevant, but I haven't had many cases of bodies being found and clubbed)
Posted by: Jason Farlander Oct 29 2004, 06:23 PM
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| Ok, in the newest concept: no, the world does not explode. |
Aww...
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Oct 29 2004, 06:27 PM
If that was all it took, there would be no earth for Shadowrun to take place on since it would've probably been destroyed by February 4, 2013.
Posted by: bit_buckethead Oct 29 2004, 07:51 PM
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
| Does the world explode? |
No, but my head does. How would the astrally perceiving mage overcome the +20 to the initiative of the projecting mage, and what kind of drain would be caused by simultaneous castings of spells on both planes? Physical or Stun?
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 29 2004, 07:55 PM
He's on the Physical and not projecting. He's just targeting an astral and a physical subject so drain is normal for both, albeit adjusted for the fact that he's simultaneously casting two spells.
Posted by: ES_Riddle Oct 29 2004, 11:02 PM
| QUOTE (bit_buckethead) | ||
No, but my head does. How would the astrally perceiving mage overcome the +20 to the initiative of the projecting mage, and what kind of drain would be caused by simultaneous castings of spells on both planes? Physical or Stun? |
Improved reflexes spell perhaps? Or maybe Boosted 3+synaptic accelerator.
Posted by: Zeel De Mort Oct 29 2004, 11:06 PM
Do you need to break an astral form's masking to affect it with a manaball on the astral plane?
We ruled that for a manabolt you do need to break it, or otherwise be aware that the person has an astral presence, but just wanted to check since you can affect people on the physical that you didn't perceive but have line of sight to, which is news to me but makes sense.
Posted by: Siege Oct 29 2004, 11:08 PM
Just for giggles - if someone is standing behind bullet-proof glass, he still gets nailed by the manaball.
However, a physical explosion would have to penetrate the barrier first.
-Siege
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 29 2004, 11:42 PM
| QUOTE (Zeel De Mort @ Oct 29 2004, 05:06 PM) |
| Do you need to break an astral form's masking to affect it with a manaball on the astral plane? We ruled that for a manabolt you do need to break it, or otherwise be aware that the person has an astral presence, but just wanted to check since you can affect people on the physical that you didn't perceive but have line of sight to, which is news to me but makes sense. |
If it's a valid target that you can see, even if you don't realize it's a valid target, I see no reason why they would be immune due to masking. Masking stops you from telling that they're astrally active... it doesn't actually stop them from being astrally active. Manaball only requires LOS, not knowledge of valid targets. Sames goes for direct target spells.
Posted by: Zeel De Mort Oct 29 2004, 11:57 PM
Sounds reasonable.
So do you really need a line of sight (from your eyes to their physical or astral presence accordingly) at all? Or just a line of effect (sorry!) from your aura to theirs or what?
I remember a while ago some guys were having a crazy argument about whether you could powerball, or was it manaball, an area and hold your fingers over your friends in your field of vision so they wouldn't get affected.
[On the physical plane] What if you were blind or had your eyes closed and you just said you cast manaball 20m directly ahead of you? Do you hit everyone in the area that you'd be able to see were you not blind? Or do you hit no one at all since you can't see anything?
Silly questions, and I don't need to know the answers, but tell me anyway.
Posted by: Zeel De Mort Oct 30 2004, 12:06 AM
Never mind, just found the answer. LOS only. Quite a simple one.
Posted by: Espiritu Oct 30 2004, 05:39 PM
Can anyone logically explain why it is required that you have LOS?
This is my issue. The spell has a radial area of effect Magic Rating x meters or such. This is considured a manifested effect directly on the spot like instaboil. No explosions so not outwards. If your hitting a spot with a radial effect why does it not work in it's maximum area? You put a Powerball on a spot and it crushes the hell out of everything...so...if you look through a doorway, put a powerball on a chair just 5 feet in, all that gets crushed is the chair what you can see behind the chair, and the path up to the doorways edge and the structure of the doorway?
What if someone is standing behind the frame of the doorway off to the side? Why does it not affect them? What reason is there for this?
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 30 2004, 06:18 PM
Don't rely on the spell's name to describe the effect. Instead of seeing Manaball as a ball of mana, see it as Mass Manabolt. The spell gives you the ability to take multiple targets, but due to the limitations of your magic and the spell, you can only hit targets in a given radius... but you're still effectively shooting multiple Manabolts simultaneously at each one of them rather than encapsulating them all with a single effect, and due to the limitation of that style of attack, it's an all-or-nothing affair. You don't get to pick your targets; you're targeting everything you can see in that area.
Basically, Elemental Manipulations are indirect spells; you create an effect and the effect does the damage; your LOS is to the spot where you want that effect to originate. Combat Spells are direct spells, you directly affect a given target; your LOS is to the target themselves, not a general area.
Posted by: ES_Riddle Oct 30 2004, 06:51 PM
| QUOTE (Espiritu) |
| What if someone is standing behind the frame of the doorway off to the side? Why does it not affect them? What reason is there for this? |
Personally, I don't like the mass bolt explanation that gets tossed around. That still conjures an image of something shooting out from you and hitting the person. There is nothing that actually shoots out or explodes or anything like that. You essentially just manipulate the mana in the area that the spell affects (or at the target for a bolt affect) and it manifests an appropriate effect. The key is that you have to have line of sight to manipulate the mana appropriately. In your example you can't see the guy who's off to the side so you can't affect the mana at his location. Even physical spells rely on the manipulation of mana.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Oct 30 2004, 06:57 PM
| QUOTE |
| Personally, I don't like the mass bolt explanation that gets tossed around. That still conjures an image of something shooting out from you and hitting the person. |
Only because you're taking "bolt" at face value.
To put it a little more straight-forwardly, don't look at it as an "area effect" spell. Look at it as a "mass effect" spell for purposes of Combat Spells and the like.
Posted by: ES_Riddle Oct 30 2004, 07:14 PM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) | ||
Only because you're taking "bolt" at face value. To put it a little more straight-forwardly, don't look at it as an "area effect" spell. Look at it as a "mass effect" spell for purposes of Combat Spells and the like. |
It's still essentially an area effect. Manaball/stunball is going to be hitting untold billions of bacteria and other microorganisms, and Powerball will have pollen, dust, and other suspended things to crush. I find it easiest to think of it as an area effect spell that can only affect what you see.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Oct 31 2004, 12:12 AM
| QUOTE |
| Manaball/stunball is going to be hitting untold billions of bacteria and other microorganisms, and Powerball will have pollen, dust, and other suspended things to crush. |
Only if you can actually see them... which is why Sterilize is more effective against bacteria than Manaball. Similar to the person under an invisibility spell, you can't see the bacteria to affect it.
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Nov 1 2004, 05:38 PM
| QUOTE (Espiritu) |
| Can anyone logically explain why it is required that you have LOS? |
Not without trying to use SR logic, but the bottom line is, if you can't see it, you can't hit it (with mana). Creating Elemental effects are different since you are creating an explosion of real material.
| QUOTE |
| What if someone is standing behind the frame of the doorway off to the side? Why does it not affect them? What reason is there for this? |
If you tossed an Elemental spell like fireball then the hidden target would. The real issue is with mana-based spells (aka Combat).
My feeling is that this is more of a balance issue since Combat Spells have a relatively lower drain than there manipulation cousins. Seems to be a decent limitation IMO.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 1 2004, 05:58 PM
| QUOTE (Espiritu) |
| Can anyone logically explain why it is required that you have LOS? |
Can anyone logically explain why two objects should attract each other with a force based on their masses and the distance between them? It's a tenet of the Shadowrun rules that that's how magic works.
~J
Posted by: hyzmarca Nov 1 2004, 09:12 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) | ||
Can anyone logically explain why two objects should attract each other with a force based on their masses and the distance between them? ~J |
The exchange of a massless information particle, if you perscribe to String Theory.
Now, if anyone can explain why matter exchanges massless information particles, that would be amazing.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 1 2004, 09:21 PM
Exactly. If you go far enough back, you're always going to find something inexplicable. For instance, can anyone explain to me why it should make sense that there is this big universe with all sorts of laws and rules and bizarre things out there, when the simpler explanation is that it is the imaginings of a single mind (mine)?
Like the physical laws, magic being LOS simply is true in current thinking. Unlike in real life, we can even remove the qualification: magic is simply LOS-based.
Human magic, at least.
~J
Posted by: tjn Nov 2 2004, 12:03 AM
Aside from game balance reasons (I just blew up Damien Knight!), there are some explanations within magical theory, well least hermetically speaking.
But basically, you don't need LOS, what you need is a symbolic connection between the mage and the target of the spell [EDIT]so that the spell goes where you want it to go[/EDIT]. I've heard some call it Variance Sympathy or somesuch, but personally I go with Identity.
It's just acquiring LoS is the easiest way (by far) of satisfying this requirement that humans know.
See, Ritual Sorcery doesn't require the target to be there, but it does require some symbol of the target, and the more direct the connection (representations to personal effects to bodily matter), the easier the casting becomes.
Here's a poor analogy, but it's something like getting a lock on with a missle. Cept there's no way to fire the missle without the lock on, but once locked on it always hits (kinda like Streak missles if anyone is familuar with Battletech).
Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Nov 2 2004, 05:49 PM
| QUOTE (tjn) |
| But basically, you don't need LOS, what you need is a symbolic connection between the mage and the target of the spell |
| QUOTE |
| It's just acquiring LoS is the easiest way (by far) of satisfying this requirement that humans know. |
| QUOTE |
| Here's a poor analogy, but it's something like getting a lock on with a missle. Cept there's no way to fire the missle without the lock on, but once locked on it always hits (kinda like Streak missles if anyone is familuar with Battletech). |
Better analogy would be lasing a target to guided a missile to an intended target. Your vision acts as "the laser" and the spell acts as "the guided missile". The only difference is that your eyes don't shoot photons at the target for the mana to ground at, so I've always just chalked it up to your mind making a "visual connection" with the target.
Posted by: Kanada Ten Nov 2 2004, 07:19 PM
| QUOTE |
| What would be some other "ways"?I can't think of another way to preform general Sorcery that is cannon other than LOS, Touch or Ritual. Any references available? |
You just named the ways other than LOS.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Nov 2 2004, 10:05 PM
And remember, to avoid getting hit by that manaball, always stand behind trees.
If you can, strap one to your back. Just make sure to water it on a regular basis.
-karma
Posted by: ES_Riddle Nov 3 2004, 07:43 AM
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) | ||
Only if you can actually see them... which is why Sterilize is more effective against bacteria than Manaball. Similar to the person under an invisibility spell, you can't see the bacteria to affect it. |
After re-reading the LOS bit on page 181, I stand corrected. I did get the amusing mental image of my microbiology professor manabolting bacteria through the microscope after reading the part about lenses and LOS, so it was totally worth it.
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