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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Manabolt

Posted by: Halabis Nov 1 2004, 06:23 PM

Do non-elemental damage spells stage up like guns or is it an all or nothing effect?

Does every 2 suxx beond D up the power by 2?

Posted by: mfb Nov 1 2004, 06:27 PM

all damaging spells stage up with net successes. if the target gets more successes on his resistance test than the caster got on the sorcery test, the target shrugs off the spell completely, unless the spell is an elemental manip. extra successes beyond D do not raise the power of the damage; they simply make it harder to resist the spell.

Posted by: Halabis Nov 1 2004, 06:34 PM

so the target doesnt stage the damage down?

Its either the damage the caster set it at, staged up, or completely negated?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Nov 1 2004, 06:46 PM

Right.

Kinda odd, isn't it?

Posted by: mfb Nov 1 2004, 06:49 PM

i like it because it keeps mages from casting all their damaging spells at force 2, and relying on lots of successes to take out the target.

Posted by: lorthazar Nov 1 2004, 07:09 PM

Actually the manabolt damage still stages up as normal if you have more net successes, but if the target has more net successes the manabolt has no effect. So it is not out of line if you have a lot of sorcery and spell pool dice as well as a focus to cast a 2L manabolt. After all if you can generate 6 more successes than him he is toast anyway

Posted by: mfb Nov 1 2004, 07:16 PM

yes, but with the TN 2 resist, you're much less likely to generate those 6 extra successes, especially against targets with decent willpower. joe schmuck, with 3 will? okay. force 5 free spirit with 3 spirit energy? not so much.

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 1 2004, 07:17 PM

mfb and lorthazar are almost right on the target's resistance test. All the target needs to shrug off a Combat Spell entirely is successes equal (or more) than the spellcaster. They do not need to exceed the spellcaster's successes.

Spellcasting and Firearms calculate staging AFTER the target has rolled its resistance rolls and only net successes are compared.

Melee combat calculates staging BEFORE any resistance rolls, as staging calculations might change the TN needed for the resistance rolls.

Posted by: mfb Nov 1 2004, 07:18 PM

er, yeah. dammit, why don't all resistance tests use the same mechanic?

Posted by: Dashifen Nov 1 2004, 07:33 PM

Because that would be too easy.

Posted by: lorthazar Nov 1 2004, 07:36 PM

Besides no mage worth his salt cast a force 2 manabolt becuase it is the same drain number as a force 4 manabolt. A force 2 powerbolt on the other hand.....

Posted by: Fortune Nov 1 2004, 08:26 PM

QUOTE (lorthazar)

Besides no mage worth his salt cast a force 2 manabolt becuase it is the same drain number as a force 4 manabolt.

Which has the same Drain Code as a Force 5 Manabolt.

Drain rounds down.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Nov 1 2004, 08:28 PM

True. If you're casting a spell at an even force you either need to:
1) Learn the spell at a higher force
2) Have your head examined
UNLESS...the force you're casting it at is your current magic rating, in which case even numbers are acceptable.

Posted by: Dashifen Nov 1 2004, 08:31 PM

mmmmm .... Force 9 Exclusive for Drain Stunbolts .... :drool:

Posted by: lorthazar Nov 1 2004, 08:34 PM

.....Or be playing with a bunch of guys known for rolling mostly odds on dice. Sorry, I like to hedge my bets

Posted by: DocMortand Nov 1 2004, 08:39 PM

wait wait wait. I think I may have been doing this wrong then. Say some casts a manabolt at a creature with willpower 3. So target number is 3 for the spell, and the creature resists with his willpower. Now he fails to resist - is all damage done, or does he do a body resistance to damage? or is the willpower spell resist the only roll he gets?

Posted by: lorthazar Nov 1 2004, 08:43 PM

Actually in that case it's just the Willpower. That is why Combat Spells are so deadly.

Posted by: DocMortand Nov 1 2004, 08:48 PM

*phew* good, I'm doing it right then...altho my pour ghoul waves got absolutely massacred by two mages with stun ball and bolt respectively...willpower 3 does jack against force 6 spells.

Edit: however, I did do things wrong when I rolled to stage down DAMAGE rather than against the successes of the initial cast...

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Nov 1 2004, 09:17 PM

EDIT:oops!

Posted by: Large Mike Nov 1 2004, 11:38 PM

I don't mean to hijack at all, so don't reply to this, but:

Grinder? Heh. Can Boltie post too now?

(Grinder, if you're confized, PM me about it. Or better yet, PM Cazmonster.)

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 2 2004, 04:55 AM

QUOTE (DocMortand)

*phew* good, I'm doing it right then...altho my pour ghoul waves got absolutely massacred by two mages with stun ball and bolt respectively...willpower 3 does jack against force 6 spells.

I personally allow Combat Pool when resisting spells. It doesn't always really matter in the end, especially when pitting average opponents against superior magicians, but it can slow a magician's ability to down his or her opposition at least a little every now and again.

Posted by: LinaInverse Nov 2 2004, 05:30 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Umm...correct me if I'm wrong (book no avail right now), but you can't use Combat pool. I thought you have to use Spell Pool to defend against spells.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 2 2004, 05:33 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

I personally allow Combat Pool when resisting spells.

"I personally allow.." as in "when I'm GMing, and despite the established rules to the contrary, I use a house rule that allows.."

Posted by: Kanada Ten Nov 2 2004, 05:34 AM

Doctor is reffering to his house rule. The only time one can use Combat Pool for spells is Elemental Manipulaitons for the Dodge and Staging, but so can the caster...

One can only use Spell Pool from the allotted Spell Defense.

Posted by: DocMortand Nov 2 2004, 07:45 AM

Hmm...seems like a pretty good house rule to use if you have no magical skill (mages would use spell pool anyways - probably have more in it than in their combat pool)

Posted by: Bane Nov 2 2004, 08:27 AM

QUOTE (Halabis)

so the target doesnt stage the damage down?

Its either the damage the caster set it at, staged up, or completely negated?

I... see.

Good to know that we've been doing this incorrectly. Can I have a page reference to make the news easier to break to my group?

Posted by: DocMortand Nov 2 2004, 08:42 AM

QUOTE (SR3 @ 183)

Spell Effect
If the target makes no Spell Resistance Test, all the successes from the Sorcery Test are used, according to the spell's description, to determine the spell's effect.
...
If there is a Spell Resistance Test, the caster's successes are compared to the successes generated by the target. If the target generated the same or more successes, the spell does not affect the target.
If the caster generates more successes, the spell has an effect. The spell's effect is measured as the difference between the caster's successes and the target's.

So yes, it does seem to be at those three options - and there is the page for you.

Posted by: Mr.Cato Nov 2 2004, 09:25 AM

yes, we have been staging this damage down. Which I see is wrong.

As for mundanes defending. Well.. they just have to rely on a buddy mage for spell shielding or spell defence. Also remember the modifiers for cover and lighting ..ect.

Posted by: mfb Nov 2 2004, 09:44 AM

this is why the SOP of any armed group is "kill the mage first". mages' power, while appreciable, is easily balanced by the number of bullets they attract.

Posted by: DrJest Nov 2 2004, 12:32 PM

Hmm... actually this makes spells less deadly than staging down, or am I reading this wrong?

I mean, Sammy Samurai with a Willpower of 5 gets hit by Mike Mage's 3S Manabolt. Mike Mage bombs out and rolls 3 successes; Sammy scores lucky and rolls all 5. With staging, Sammy would still take a M wound; under canon, he takes diddly-squat.

Or did I make a huge boo-boo here?

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 2 2004, 12:36 PM

No boo-boo. Combat spells don't do less than the selected base damage. Death Touch is all-or-nothing. Even an equal number of successes by the defender is all it takes to take nothing.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 2 2004, 03:30 PM

It's only less deadly in that they need fewer successes to escape injury. Unfortunately, magicians tend to have a lot more dice to throw. Using your example, Sammy Samurai has a whole 5 dice to toss to resist. Mike Mage has in excess of 12 (Sorcery 6, Spell Pool 6) not including Elemental or Totem bonuses, foci, or anything else along those lines.

Even with the staging down of damage included, Sammy doesn't stand much of a chance unless he has another magician helping him with Spell Defense.

Posted by: LinaInverse Nov 2 2004, 04:18 PM

QUOTE (DrJest)

Your example is correct, but highly unlikely to ever show up. No mage worth his salt is going to toss a Force 3 Combat Spell. That'd be like a Sammy running around using only Hold-Out pistols. 99 out of a 100, the mage is going to be tossing Force 6 or higher, which means that Sammy's chances of out-successing Mike is near-nil.

EDIT: Clarification; Mike throws his Sorcery skill, not the spell's Force in casting. Even if Mike was using a Force 3 spell, he'd still throw 6 dice if his Sorcery skill is 6 (which 99% of starting to mid-level PC mages are going to have).

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Unfortunately, magicians tend to have a lot more dice to throw.

Um...why is this unfortunate? I'd say it's quite fortunate...for the mage...

Posted by: BitBasher Nov 2 2004, 05:01 PM

You'd be surprised how many people try to cheeze the dice mechanics with force 2 attack/combat spells.

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Nov 2 2004, 05:32 PM

QUOTE (LinaInverse)

EDIT: Clarification; Mike throws his Sorcery skill, not the spell's Force in casting. Even if Mike was using a Force 3 spell, he'd still throw 6 dice if his Sorcery skill is 6 (which 99% of starting to mid-level PC mages are going to have).

Isn't the number of sorcery dice used for the test limited to the Force of the spell you are casting or is that something else I am thinking of?

Posted by: LinaInverse Nov 2 2004, 05:48 PM

QUOTE (GrinderTheTroll)

Isn't the number of sorcery dice used for the test limited to the Force of the spell you are casting or is that something else I am thinking of?

There are a lot of things that cap at the spell's force (usually successes), but the number thrown to cast it is solely dependant on Sorcery skill. I used to think otherwise until my GM pointed this out to me.

Posted by: mfb Nov 2 2004, 06:05 PM

i believe that in 2nd ed, you rolled your spell's force to cast it. if so, that's probably where the confusion comes from.

Posted by: GrinderTheTroll Nov 2 2004, 06:29 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

i believe that in 2nd ed, you rolled your spell's force to cast it. if so, that's probably where the confusion comes from.

Ah yeah that's it. Used to roll the Force in dice + up to the Force in Sorcery dice.

I just need to keep thinking of Sorcery SR3 in terms of shooting a gun, where:

Sorcery = Gun skill and Spells Power = Gun Power.

CAn't add more Magic (spell pool whatever) to the Sorcery test = Can't add more Combat pool the weapon test.

Anyways, thanks again.

Posted by: Glyph Nov 3 2004, 06:40 AM

One thing to keep in mind about mages is that they tend to have lots of dice that they can potentially throw at people, but normally those dice are split between three things - spellcasting, helping to resist the Drain, and spell defense.

The deadly dice assault happens when a mage is casting a spell whose Drain can be resisted by Willpower alone, and faces no mages on the opposing side. It's still risky, though, because sometimes Willpower won't soak all of the Drain, and you can rarely be 100% sure that there is no awakened opposition. It's the near-equivalent of a sammie blowing all of his Combat Pool on an assault rifle burst, and saving none for dodging.

I suppose I don't find it too unbalancing, because a manabolt against Willpower: 3 is about as deadly as an Ares Alpha against Body: 3. Characters who have instant-kill attacks are not hard to make in Shadowrun. On the flip side, a Willpower of 6 or better makes it damn tough to affect your character with manabolt, etc. Even if the mage is rolling lots of dice, 6's can be elusive.