Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ The Smiling Bandit

Posted by: DrJest Nov 1 2004, 11:42 PM

As I'm sure you lovely people all know by now, I've been waaaay out of the loop for a long while. Thanks to Ancient History (man of a million answers) I've caught up with a fair amount of the major plot arcs from my previous time, but there were always a few niggling little weirdnesses that I never found out about.So, a random question on a minor mystery:

Back in the Shadowtech sourcebook, there's a poster called The Smiling Bandit (he appeared, I think, in a later sourcebook as well, but I can't remember which one). Although we were, by then, familiar with the high level Matrix movers and shakers blanking out their time/date stamps, Bandit had actually made his display text - which, as one comment in the book says, would technically be impossible since it would mean hacking the basic core code of the Matrix (not being a computer hacker myself I'm not planning to dispute this in any way - a SR universe character made the comment "in-game" and was not disputed by the resident experts, therefore I accept it as a SR universe situation).

Did we ever find out who The Smiling Bandit was? Or how he altered his time/date stamp? The trite answer would be that he was an early otaku, but even that doesn't really hold water.

It's not a major universe-shaking plot element AFAIK, I just wondered Cos, you know, if nobody has used the guy, I have a few ideas...

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 1 2004, 11:44 PM

Look in Target:Matrix Answers within You'll find.........

Posted by: Sepherim Nov 1 2004, 11:58 PM

IIRC, he's appeared in a couple other books after that. Let's leave it at a point in which has a status near to which Fastjack has acquired... Smiling's best, we all know that, though!

Posted by: Fortune Nov 2 2004, 12:11 AM

QUOTE (Sepherim @ Nov 2 2004, 10:58 AM)

Smiling's best, we all know that, though!

No chance! Leo's the man ... or elf!

Posted by: Adarael Nov 2 2004, 02:10 AM

Oh, bollocks to that. I'm tired of immortal elves having given humanity everything they had. I'm glad the current plot bent is moving much more toward the 'We did this without your immortal/draconic ass giving us any help, thanks.'

Posted by: Tanka Nov 2 2004, 02:16 AM

Bandit does happen to take the cake.

Note: If all of his time/date stamps (including access logs) are changed, then it's a very high-level program cracking codes and changing everything as he goes. If it's just Shadowland, then he's just cracked Shadowland and done something that has no effect on it (otherwise, you know Cap'n would be all over his ass).

Posted by: mfb Nov 2 2004, 02:22 AM

it could easily be a simple script that he uploads every time he logs onto a host he intends to make posts on.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 2 2004, 02:28 AM

QUOTE (mfb)

it could easily be a simple script that he uploads every time he logs onto a host he intends to make posts on.

Possibly. But what fun would that be?

Posted by: Crisp Nov 2 2004, 11:44 AM

The Bandit appears in several books, usually whenever the subject turns to genetech or bioware. For instance I think he makes several posts in the Genetech chapter of SOTA63.

Like Shockwave said there is a small file on him (and people like Fastjack or SilveryK) in the much under-rated Target: Matrix

Posted by: WhiteRabbit Nov 3 2004, 03:28 AM

I always assumed that the Smiling Bandit was Harlequin's Matrix handle.

Posted by: Dashifen Nov 3 2004, 03:31 AM

QUOTE (WhiteRabbit)

I always assumed that the Smiling Bandit was Harlequin's Matrix handle.

Nope. Harley is the Laughing Man, IIRC.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 3 2004, 05:00 AM

I like how Harley even appears in the Genesis shadowrun game.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 3 2004, 05:02 AM

Dashifen: Yup. "Ha! Fraggin' Ha!" Always good for the spontaneous comment that throws all of those not in the know off... ("The word 'Pest' comes to mind...")

WRonin: Really? Been a while since I played it... I should see if I can dig it up (assuming I still have it laying around).

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Nov 3 2004, 05:06 AM

QUOTE (tanka)

You should be able to download a ROM and a good genesis emulator like KGEN or genecyst just to play it.

And yeah...Harley dosen't show up till the end of the game, but he basically tells you to go and kill the last boss....

....which begs the ages old question why he dosen't just do it himself but sends some raggedy runners to do it instead.

Posted by: DrJest Nov 3 2004, 11:07 AM

QUOTE

....which begs the ages old question why he dosen't just do it himself but sends some raggedy runners to do it instead.

" 'Do the men of the Patrol know..?' I perceive the question in your minds. They do not. None save a few of the most powerful of their minds has the slightest inkling of the truth. To reveal any portion of it to Civilisation as a whole would blight that Civilisation irreperably." - Eukonidor the Watchman, E.E. 'Doc' Smith's Grey Lensman.

Harlequin has always had a keen interest in the civilisation of the Sixth World. Unlike his peers amongst the immortals (Dunkelzahn excepted), he believes that "our" intellectual drive and our melding of magic and science stands a far better chance of dealing with the eventual reappearance of the Horrors than his world ever did. To this end (and now I'm speculating), I believe he tries not to spoon-feed us too much; it would stunt our development, as well as simply repeating the history of his time.

Also, I believe that - like Eukonidor and the other Arisians from the Lensman books - he is aware that general knowledge of immortal elves etc would set up an inferiority complex in our civilisation that may never be knocked down. Better not to take that chance. Individuals, even small groups, may seek out and discover the outer edges of that truth without damage, since they discover it by their own efforts.

Whoa, deep thinking for early morning

Incidentally, I used to have the Shadowrun Genesis ROM, but it got corrupted before I could finish the game (I believe I was wandering around Sinseareach lands at the time looking for a dragon... quite why, I forget...) - anyone got links for where I can lay my hands on it?

Posted by: Tanka Nov 3 2004, 01:25 PM

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

QUOTE (tanka @ Nov 3 2004, 12:02 AM)

Why wouldn't he? Same reason he doesn't do anything in Harlequin's Back himself. (Well, that and he'd have to effectively be in two places at once, but that's a moot point. After all, he's Immortal!

)

I prefer the physical system if only for the nostalgia effect, actually. I remember how fun Decking was (and how simple, compared to everything else) and how much good paydata you could steal.

Posted by: Fortune Nov 3 2004, 02:20 PM

QUOTE (DrJest)

... anyone got links for where I can lay my hands on it?

DV8 has something you might want to check out http://www.wiredreflexes.com/sr/shadowrun/downloads/index.php.

To be nice and proper, this is the front page of his web site, http://www.wiredreflexes.com.

Posted by: hobgoblin Nov 3 2004, 04:38 PM

decking with maps simple? i recall reading the rules and wondering how many actions ice got. atleast now they are defined as either proactive or reactive. and makeing those damn maps could take ages. now you can roll up a host on the fly

as for those elfs, they may be immortal but they are not bulletproof

and about the timestamps, if data is stored like it is today then you could go back and edit the stamp after the fact. but it seems that what bandit and the others do is to insert a stream of data into their icon and this suppress or alter the timestamp. basicly we dont know enough about how this icon system works. some say it inserts a prosess into the host that basicly is the icon and this interacts with the host. its kinda like a mobil rootkit.

another guess that i have come to think of lately is the talk of autonomous agents (small bits of code that "lives" on the net) in real life. what if this have come into being in pre crash matrix. then someone hooks the asist system into this so that the "agent" become human controlled rather then autonomous. the asist then convert the agent i/o into sensory i/o for the human brain to work with. this can explain the number of deaths in the early years. the brain was not able to cope with the raw data and alien sensory feeds of the early years. then by grabbing the computer mavricks from jails and uni envoriments you get the same kind of people that started the personal computer, unix and internet revolution. these then go to town on the tech, and twist into then unthinkable directions, createing the original cyberdecks.

the problem with the cyberdeck tho is the comment that it was able to bypass all kinds of existing security. this however must include the firewall. the most basic and therefor allso the most effective. but look at the explosion of connections today that use port 80 (the standard port for http traffic, basicly the web). all kinds of software mask themselfs as basic web traffic today. what if this is what the deck does. mask itself as other traffic, therefor the host cant just kill off the connection as it cant realy tell what is icon traffic and what is other traffic. just look at how simple it is to kill of a tortise user compared to a deck user. the tortise user to me is the old style dumb terminal or pc.

then the only option is to try to kill the icon. problem then is that most likely the icon isnt one prosess but many, maybe even shutting down and starting up again so as to confuse. then the only solution is to insert faulty signals into the ipc traffic that makes up the icon, and this is what i guess the IC and attack util do. over time this can constrict the icon so much that the host can lock onto it and remove it or the deck itself crashes as its part of the io group.

but all this is theory as this is a game we are talking about, not real world.

Posted by: DrJest Nov 3 2004, 11:59 PM

Thanks for the links, Fortune

Oh, and hobgoblin?

QUOTE

as for those elfs, they may be immortal but they are not bulletproof

"the gamemaster should present Harlequin and Ehran as individuals of such power and intellect that they are prepared for virtually any situation. Thus if a runner attempts to shoot Ehran, the Elf has a Bullet Barrier, and so on" - Harlequin p. 146

Sorry, chummer, they are bulletproof

Posted by: Toptomcat Nov 4 2004, 12:26 AM

Well, it does say 'virtually.' So if a ludicrously creative PC tried to kill Harley, I'd allow it a slight chance of working.
Otherwise no.

Posted by: Sigil Nov 4 2004, 12:49 AM

This is the sort of thing that annoys me about Shadowrun, and the Immortal Elf plotline in specific.

NPCs should not get 'special rules'. Ever.

All in my opinion, but nevertheless. It just leads to the GM Pet NPC syndrome or the 'YOU WILL DO MY BEAUTIFUL PLOT' railroad.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Nov 4 2004, 01:04 AM

The amount of time it would take to ascribe all the spells, skills, and abilities of an immortal wouldn't be worth it since it would amount to the same result. The only real question is why such beings interact with the PCs at all. Only because it can be fun for them. If your players don't like their characters in situations they can't control is another issue.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2004, 04:35 AM

QUOTE (Sigil)

There are some things that players just should not be able to handle. Ever. This is one of them. Not bothering with stats prevents an attempt to break the game by building characters to do exactly that.

You may come up with a plan that will outsmart me as a GM. Not many people do, but it has been done. I'm willing to bet that neither you nor your character will come up with something that a being that has been alive for multiple thousands of years would be surprised or outsmarted by enough to kill them.

~J

Posted by: hyzmarca Nov 4 2004, 04:52 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (Sigil @ Nov 3 2004, 07:49 PM)

There are some things that a pPC shouldn't be abe to handle directly. However, with the right contacts or a stolen balistic missile sub, anything is possible.

How many conventional SLBMs can a IE soak?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2004, 04:53 AM

None, if they netherwalk out of the target area first.

~J

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 4 2004, 05:26 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Nov 3 2004, 10:35 PM)

I think his problem is that there are characters like IEs in the game.

They are effectively invulnerable characters that you have no chance of ever having even a remote hope of giving a paper cut to even if you got your hands on an entire fleet of ballistic submarines. Using characters like that, from a gaming point of view, is on par with just saying "you will do as I say and there's nothing you can do about it. If I feel like double-crossing you, tough. If I feel like not paying you, tough. You're mine. Get used to it and quit your bitching or I'll kill you. Now shut up and continue with my [the GM's] story... or else." It's situations (and even the threat of situations) like that which are annoying. Even moreso when they're basically just regular elves with super Kung Fu powers, thus allowing them to be used any time a regular elf would be used.

It's basically railroading at its worst.

Powerful characters (mob bosses, megacorporate CEOs, etc.) are one thing. Even nearly omnipotent Great Dragons have their uses, especially since they generally operate through intermediaries rather than put themselves directly into a situation. Demi-gods walking in the guise of men who directly work with and against PCs (like Harley) are something else entirely. Especially in the hands of poor or inexperienced GMs who fall for the temptation of "look at how cool my NPCs are! Sit back and listen to my story... oh, and sometimes I'll let you roll some dice just to keep you here so you can see how awesome this is."

Posted by: OurTeam Nov 4 2004, 05:38 AM

I'll second what Dr. Funk said.

I think a good GM can use IEs, Dragons and Megacorps in a game to good effect.

I think a poor GM can make life miserable for his players, even without using IEs, Dragons and Megacorps. When he does use them, it may just be easier to notice that his GM skills need improvement.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2004, 05:52 AM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

They are effectively invulnerable characters that you have no chance of ever having even a remote hope of giving a paper cut to even if you got your hands on an entire fleet of ballistic submarines. Using characters like that, from a gaming point of view, is on par with just saying "you will do as I say and there's nothing you can do about it. If I feel like double-crossing you, tough. If I feel like not paying you, tough. You're mine. Get used to it and quit your bitching or I'll kill you. Now shut up and continue with my [the GM's] story... or else." It's situations (and even the threat of situations) like that which are annoying. Even moreso when they're basically just regular elves with super Kung Fu powers, thus allowing them to be used any time a regular elf would be used.

It's basically railroading at its worst.

Powerful characters (mob bosses, megacorporate CEOs, etc.) are one thing. Even nearly omnipotent Great Dragons have their uses, especially since they generally operate through intermediaries rather than put themselves directly into a situation. Demi-gods walking in the guise of men who directly work with and against PCs (like Harley) are something else entirely. Especially in the hands of poor or inexperienced GMs who fall for the temptation of "look at how cool my NPCs are! Sit back and listen to my story... oh, and sometimes I'll let you roll some dice just to keep you here so you can see how awesome this is."

I disagree that their inclusion is a flat problem. As you yourself allude to, the same sort of thing should be true for some non-immortal NPCs and for some security installations. The problem comes in when the GM does exactly what you say, throws them in when a normal elf could be used. I could throw in Damien Knight when a normal human would be used, possibly with a physical mask. I could throw in the Spirit of Denver. I could throw in OMFGUBAR1337man to whom Essence restrictions do not apply.

As OurTeam says, bad GMing can come to a focus around the inclusion of an IE, but it is not created therein. I also tend to fall more to the opinion that Harlequin and the others don't frequently deal directly with Runners, Genesis Shadowrun game notwithstanding. The first Harlequin was a special circumstance of rivalry, IIRC, and HB was not Harlequin's choice. He's certainly closer to the circles than most other power players, but that doesn't mean he or the others are mixing it up with the Shadowcommunity much anywhere but on the Matrix.

~J

Posted by: hyzmarca Nov 4 2004, 06:13 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

None, if they netherwalk out of the target area first.

~J

Which is why they're all ruthenium coated.... and please don't say detect missile spell.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2004, 06:20 AM

Detect missile, or a friendly spirit in the area, or the fact that unless the missile is traveling ~1 meter/second the ruthenium will be doing a little of jack and a little of shit, or something like the Adept Combat Sense/Sixth Sense, or informants from your attempt to get the sub in the first place, or underlings with a good set of sensors nearby, or any of a thousand other things…

~J

Posted by: hyzmarca Nov 4 2004, 06:37 AM

I asked nicely.

Oh well, there are always contacts. Powerful people have powerful enemies. If you look hard enough, you can find someone who is both willing and able to kill the annoying Immortal. The thing about being the most powerful person on the block is that there's always someone more pwoerful two streets over.

....and Thor Shots.

Posted by: Casazil Nov 4 2004, 07:12 AM

In the Sega game you are out to avenge your brothers death. to do this you have to follow the leads which leads you to Harlequin. He tells you that Ito has info you get it and sooner or later you find out one of Harlequin's old spirits got free named thon. He needs to destroy artifacts to get his power that keeps him alive. You go poking around in some caves in the indian lands south east of the sinsearach. (go south cross bridge enter lower cave) once in you go south to the wall go east follow to a door going south. next go west till you find the wall go south to a door go through door. now go west across the whole room go through next west door. again go west throughthis room to the other side to get to another west side door go through. in this room is a raku strike team kill them save the feathered serpent tell the truth dragon will help you at end of game enemy. Once you have talked to everyone and hit all the matrix systems of the corps, ito's, gates underground, city hall, and lone star you have all the info you need get your group go see Harlequin he'll tell you to get ready do so if you have not. then see Harlequin again say yes he goes to the sinsearach they chant to help you out you attack the spirit the dragon pops in you go out blast the entry to the cave you were in and you win. at this point Harlequin says you did good aww thanks. and that is why you want the dragon and why Harlequin is not there him self you need the dragon and he has to chant with the elders.

Oh yeah just beat the game for the millionth time last week thus the reason I know all the answers at this time.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2004, 12:40 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Nov 4 2004, 01:37 AM)

You asked nicely, but it was the most obvious of the many answers. How do you find out what time it is, and please don't say by looking at a clock.

Thor shots have the same problem, and if IEs are common enough to have another more powerful one a few streets over, well, your campaign has problems. Doubly so if your characters have them as a contact.

~J

Posted by: hyzmarca Nov 4 2004, 03:03 PM

I never said that it would be easy finding one, but it would probably be easier than taking on a statless chracter. If Push comes to shove, join the Blood Mag eGestalt and conspire to bring the Horrors over early. I'm sure some Named monstronsity would like to play with an IE.

On a less suicidal level, you could make a list of things that your IE enemy has done that would anger certain Great Dragons.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2004, 03:14 PM

If you can really act at that level, go for it. Why not just nuke the earth into oblivion, though? You’d wipe out their magic at the same time you were wiping them out.

There are ways you can kill IEs. IEs have been killed. They’re just not reasonable for a plausible runner group.

~J

Posted by: hyzmarca Nov 4 2004, 04:11 PM

You don't have to opperate at that level so much as know where to find people who do. An post to Shadowlands describing the IE current activities and whereabouts might be enough to set about his downfall. .

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2004, 04:14 PM

Also keep in mind that even knowing IEs exist would be unlikely, barring metagaming. Still, considering how quickly an IE can make his or her whereabouts his or her former whereabouts…

~J

Posted by: Sepherim Nov 4 2004, 08:51 PM

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Such a post would only make the IE change tactics/places/things... and then go for you. Which is more, since you know of their existance, probably most IEs will have a grudge against you... not nice at all.

Being statless means that players can't kill them, which doesn't mean they can't be killed. moving contacts so Ares has a major grudge against Harley would probably get the IE some problems, but, in the end, it would have been Ares and not the PCs who "killed" him.

In any case, you can always say "not interested" to Harley and leave the negotiation table. Not probable he'll waste time going after you...

Posted by: Adarael Nov 4 2004, 09:29 PM

I got a good one for you. A relatively easy one, all things considered.

Lure an IE into a mana-warp heavy zone, like Mexico City. Lure elf into warp. Hammer with everything you've got. Elf's spooky magic powers? Probably pretty worthless.

Remember - foveae & warps scare even IEs.

Edit: correlary. Fight IE in space. Which is much harder.

Posted by: Nikoli Nov 4 2004, 09:31 PM

Assuming it can be lured in. They didn't survive this long by falling for typical bait. They have millenia on you, they have litteraly seen every trick (probably pioneered a few) in the book.

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Nov 4 2004, 09:43 PM

QUOTE (Adarael)

Lure an IE into a mana-warp heavy zone, like Mexico City. Lure elf into warp. Hammer with everything you've got. Elf's spooky magic powers? Probably pretty worthless.

Not really that useless, they just will be bound by the geasa they used to perform magic during the downcycle.

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Nov 4 2004, 10:19 PM

QUOTE (Sepherim)

In any case, you can always say "not interested" to Harley and leave the negotiation table. Not probable he'll waste time going after you...

QUOTE

Not so. I don't remember getting to say "not interested" when I got railroaded into Harlequin's Back. I remember specifically saying "not interested" at the end of Harlequin, when he made me go to that volcano after having screwed me out of more money than I'd ever seen while I was dirt poor. But no, he's the IE, everyone has to do what he says. I don't think FASA meant for this to shake out this way, but that adventure made my whole running group hate Harlequin in particular, elves in general, and magicians would be thrown in there if they weren't the only section of SR that can't be worked around in any way. We went into Harlequin's Back hating the guy, and it was quite clear that the only way we were going to do anything he said was if we were coerced. He's definitely considered the villain in our game, and if we ever run into him again, I think we'll probably launch a suicidal attack against him just because we can't really morally justify letting ourselves be "enslaved" again, as one of our runners put it. I don't think that getting railroaded at the end of Harlequin was the fault of our GM at all, it's the fault of whoever wrote the end of the adventure for creating a situation that apparently couldn't be resolved without us, after creating all the conditions to make us say no to participating in it. The only mistake our GM might have possibly made is that maybe he could have said "ok, Harlequin does it himself," but not having read the adventure myself, I'll give our GM the benefit of the doubt, which unfortunately means I can't give Harlequin the benefit of the doubt. I definitely agree with the crowd that's saying IEs are an inherently railroading plot device, because that's the way they've behaved in the published adventures, not the ones that our GM comes up with. Having been forced through the metaplane quest from hell, my decker has really been traumatized by Harlequin, and if he were a mage, yes, he'd go help the blood magicians try to bring the horrors in early, because the way he sees it, humanity has no reason for existing, if they just exist at the whim of the IEs. Apparently we're just here for their amusement, why SHOULDN'T we all be destroyed?

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Nov 4 2004, 10:38 PM

Nice rant, but it sounds like it's the GMs fault and not the books. Read one of the run books, they have a few options sketched out, but primarily are based on the assumption that the PCs will stick around and try to get it all done. They typically don't cover you turning tail and running, because that suddenly puts you outside the scope of the run book, and into the massive undefined region that GMs are supposed to make convincing.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 4 2004, 10:43 PM

Not to mention that it does mention in places that, hey, it's your game. You can award more money and karma if that's typical of your group.

One run that one of my GMs did was purely combat-oriented (clear an Ant Hive in Chicago. Ugh. I kill all ants to this day). He awarded us a "low" amount of karma at 8 points each.

In the run books, the typical award for one section of the book is... 3?

We never finished our campaign, but I can guarantee that we had at least 40 karma under our belts in about four games. Most of the time we get it in three.

Posted by: Fortune Nov 4 2004, 10:44 PM

If you haven't actually read the adventure yourself, how can you make any such claims of GM infallibility and condemn the module out-of-hand?

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Nov 4 2004, 10:50 PM

Yeah, I'll have to read Harlequin. I've read Harlequin's Back, and I'm not too upset about it (just kinda). My big gripe is with the first Harlequin, but again, the only thing I can see that our GM could have done differently would be say that Harlequin did it himself, in which case I'd still be pissed at the fact that Harlequin was manipulating us all the way through the adventure and we've basically been told that there's absolutely nothing that we can ever do about it. Actually, scratch that. What picks me is that there's absolutely nothing we can ever HOPE to do about it. It's just sort of "that's it, game over, this is the hand of FASA telling you to just walk away and never come back"

Luckily, from what I'm picking up in Harlequin's back, it should be possible to create another adventure including Harlequin from scratch and kind of right some wrongs and make the whole character seem less oppressing and more human with the emotional hooks included in Harlequin's back that our group never really found much out about, whereas I'd always kind of assumed that would not be possible. We just need to tell the GMs in our group to steer clear of any published material including IEs from now on, which I don't think will be a problem, because we all pretty much feel right now that IEs have no more place in our campaign and shall now be relegated to the status of Dunkelzahn (i.e., our group will always disregard what FASA or FanPro has to say on the matter)

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Nov 4 2004, 10:57 PM

ANd to clarify, I've read HB, it's the first Harlequin where I've supposedly made a claim of "GM infallibility." I make the claim now until I've read Harlequin and seen otherwise. I'm willing to give my friends the benefit of the doubt before the writers of Harlequin. Nothing against them, I've just never met them, and I don't want to go around accusing my GM of shoddy GMing on a public board unless I have proof.
But even if that end scene could have gone differently, and I was supposed to have the option of just walking away, I'm fairly certain that as written Harlequin would still have gotten away with making my group do a lot of stuff it wouldn't normally do and then screwed them out of compensation. Don't get me wrong, the adventure itself compensated us, because we still dream about the karma we got on that run when most guys are dreaming of girls. But that karma isn't coming from Harlequin the elf, it's coming from Harlequin the adventure, which still makes Harlequin the elf a bastard, and we hate him. Having read Harlequin's Back, if our characters knew the things I've read in that book, maybe they wouldn't hate him quite so much, but that wouldn't change the fact that as a force, he's forced the characters to do a lot of things they normally wouldn't do.

Posted by: Kanada Ten Nov 4 2004, 11:06 PM

There is no difference between an Immortal and Megacorporation. Can they be destroyed? Of course. Can the PCs do it alone? Not well enough that stats would help or change the methods.

QUOTE

I definitely agree with the crowd that's saying IEs are an inherently railroading plot device, because that's the way they've behaved in the published adventures, not the ones that our GM comes up with.

Having read Harlequin and many other adventures, I can say they are meant to be a rough outline with a possible outcome; not used word for word. A smart immortal would know you hated him and instead of forcing you to go on the mission, he would make it look as though you could gain revenge by chasing him though the metaplanes.

QUOTE

Having read Harlequin's Back, if our characters knew the things I've read in that book, maybe they wouldn't hate him quite so much, but that wouldn't change the fact that as a force, he's forced the characters to do a lot of things they normally wouldn't do.

It was hot in Seattle, so hot and sunny a character that didn't normally wear shades put them on to avoid the glare. Damn weather railroading characters.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 4 2004, 11:07 PM

Perfectly ok for the characters to hate, loathe, and abhor him.

~J

Posted by: Tanka Nov 5 2004, 12:07 AM

CBB: IIRC, there's a spot that says "There is always the chance that the characters will refuse to do this. If that happens, move on and do something else."

That's how it always is with any game. If your GM used Harlequin as a railroading technique to get you to play the game, then it's his fault, not the book's.

Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Nov 5 2004, 01:46 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

You may come up with a plan that will outsmart me as a GM.

This falls under.

Just because i have Int 4 (5-6) and you threw me a curve ball that i didn't catch, doesn't mean you outsmarted the Int 8+ NPC im representing........

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 5 2004, 02:10 AM

Exactly.

~J

Posted by: Crimson Jack Nov 5 2004, 04:29 AM

QUOTE (tanka)

In the run books, the typical award for one section of the book is... 3?

I believe the reward in the modules is for goals obtained outside of the standard awards you receive as outlined in the BBB. I could be mistaken on this, as I no longer have any modules, but IIRC it reads something to that effect.

Posted by: Tanka Nov 5 2004, 04:46 AM

For Harlequin, it's 8 + 1 for every section each character completed.

Then more from the core book.

Which, if you're lucky, ~20 for the whole book, averaging ~2.5 per section.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 5 2004, 04:53 AM

For Harlequin's Back, keeping in mind that this is only for playing the campaign utterly perfectly (though not including discretionary awards), it doles out around 100 karma.

~J

Posted by: Tanka Nov 5 2004, 04:59 AM

I'm counting 61, Kage. No, I didn't count the suggested bonus, because that doesn't come into effect until the next run (if the GM decides to go with it).

Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 5 2004, 05:00 AM

You sure on that? I thought I'd counted everything...

And no, I didn't count the bonus either. And we are not going to talk about it, either, because there are people who haven't played about.

~J

Posted by: Tanka Nov 5 2004, 05:54 AM

I only checked the back, so I may have missed a few things mentioned in the sections. But, in the back, there's only 61.

Posted by: L.D Nov 5 2004, 06:13 AM

My players just loved the end of the first Harlequin adventure.

[ Spoiler ]