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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Shapeshifters and cultured bioware
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 11:19 AM
Hail!
I am new to these boards, so "hi" everybody...
I wonder if it is possible to implant shapeshifters with (cultured) bioware. To me it sounds acceptable because it is cloned from your own tissue and therefore it shouldnīt be painfully rejected by the shapeshifterīs regeneration power.
If it was possible, it would be quite powerful, because the shapeshifter character could get up to 11 points worth of bioware (essence 8 + 3). But there are a few other things to be taken into consideration (if it works at all):
1. Does the regeneration power extend on the bioware? (Iīd say it does.)
2. Does it work in animal form? (Iīd say "b)".)
a) only neural bioware (i.e. stuff already cultured)
b) everything goes (i.e. enhanced human muscles -> enhanced animal
muscles
3. Would it suck to allow this? (If itīs overdone I am pretty sure it could be quite
unbalancing.)
What do you think? RAW only mention cyberware...
Posted by: Blaze Nov 8 2004, 11:41 AM
I'd probably allow a shifter to take bioware, but would:
- Only allow the bioware to be cultured- non-cultured bioware won't survive the shift, and
- Double the effective Bio Index of any implants, similar to how the Sensitive System flaw affects Cyberware and Essence cost. I wouldn't have this as a flaw- just a fact of life.
However, if given all the above I would allow the shifter to use any bioware he could get installed, and allow the regeneration power to affect it (though limit it to reducing bioware stress over a period of days/weeks rather than near-instantly).
-JH.
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 11:56 AM
I like the idea of applying the "double bio-index" restriction. This would help getting rid of the problem of the 11 bio-slots. But what about the unique regeneration powers? Is cultured bioware so well integrated into the subjects systems that it would apply? And what about those different shapes?
Posted by: Blaze Nov 8 2004, 12:20 PM
Not having SRComp here for reference I can't be exactly sure how Regen works for PCs. I would allow bio-enhanced shifters to regenerate but probably slow down the rate of regeneration- say maybe a complex action extra per point of Bio Index, or a combat turn per 3 points or part thereof? I might also have Bioware take a point of Stress every time the player shifts form to account for it not being fully capable of adapting to a being with its morphic field in flux- regeneration would heal this, but slowly (over a period of days sounds the most balanced, though your mileage may as always vary). It'll change shape with the character, but it'll hurt like hell and put the character at a disadvantage if he does it too often.
-JH.
Posted by: hyzmarca Nov 8 2004, 12:48 PM
The real difficulty with regeneration is getting it in. A shapeshifter heals fully every 3 seconds. This mans that any implant surgery will have to be completed in under that time frame. No surgeon is that good. I'd also be inclined to disallow culturd bioware on the grounds that shifters don't have metahuman DNA. That appear to be human, but they most certainly are not. Bioware capible of functioning in a shifter would have to be a one-of-a-kind prototype or similar.
As for stat boosts and abilities from bioware extending to animal form, Shifters have two seperate sets of natural physical stats. Adept powers don't transfer over between forms, so I doubt bioware would either.
Bioware adds half bioindex to all healing test TNs, so I'd apply that to regeneration tests. A shifter with 1 bioindex would fail to regenerate deadly damage on a roll of 1 or 2; 1 2 or 3 for fire, silver, and weapon foci. A shifter with bioindex of bioindex of 8 would only regen deadly damage on a roll of 6. If hit by fire, silver, or a weapon focus it wouldn't regenerate at all.
Posted by: Nikoli Nov 8 2004, 02:21 PM
I would not allow a shapeshifter to have any bio or cyber ware, on the basis that it's almost impossible to implant through surgury and on the rare (read you probably have to pre-burn your hand of god) occurance, the foreign material would be extruded out in a painful manner.
But that's me.
Shifters aren't supposed to have any 'ware, Bio or Cyber
Posted by: Blaze Nov 8 2004, 02:25 PM
Culturing the Bioware (ie. creating it directly from the shifter's own genetic makeup) would probably be possible despite it not being a metahuman. By definition Cultured Bioware is unique and particular to the host in any case.
As to implanting the stuff, the regeneration would be a problem as Hyz points out. However, you could probably get around this by putting the shifter into a state of cryogenic suspension, either through magic or technology. A clinic capable of implanting betaware would probably have the resources capable of doing this. It's still be a very tricky procedure, however- increase the TNs for your surgery test appropriately.
-JH.
Posted by: KarmaInferno Nov 8 2004, 03:03 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| The real difficulty with regeneration is getting it in. A shapeshifter heals fully every 3 seconds. |
Soo...
I could cut a hole in a shapeshifter, shove a remote-detonate bomb in a thus exposed body cavity, and grin as it sealed inside the poor fragger?
-np
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 8 2004, 04:17 PM
| QUOTE (Cymophane) |
| I wonder if it is possible to implant shapeshifters with (cultured) bioware. To me it sounds acceptable because it is cloned from your own tissue and therefore it shouldnīt be painfully rejected by the shapeshifterīs regeneration power. |
Logically and thematically? No. The context of the entry forbidding cyberware is clearly referring to any type of artificial augmentation.
Even the http://shadowrunrpg.com/resources/faq.shtml have apparently changed their mind on the topic. Some time ago, there used to be a silly suggestion about allowing cultured bioware, but it included equally silly scenarios involving weapon foci scapels and the like.
| QUOTE |
| 1. Does the regeneration power extend on the bioware? (Iīd say it does.) |
No. Not even the silly rules mentioned above allowed for that. Especially since Bioware has no impact on Essence, thus there's no way for the magic of the shapeshifter's transformation to realize those artificial organs are anything but diseased tissue.
| QUOTE |
| 2. Does it work in animal form? (Iīd say "b)".) a) only neural bioware (i.e. stuff already cultured) b) everything goes (i.e. enhanced human muscles -> enhanced animal muscles |
Logically, the implant should take severe stress during the transformation. But since it's not in the rules or even encouraged by the rules whatsoever, it's not an issue.
| QUOTE |
| 3. Would it suck to allow this? (If itīs overdone I am pretty sure it could be quite unbalancing.) |
Regeneration is more than enough of an advantage for a shapeshifter.
If you're looking for ways to make shapeshifters a little more balanced rather than crippled, consider getting rid of the rule that requires them to buy their Physical Attributes twice. You might also want to ditch the restrictions on Contacts and Resources -- trust in your players good judgement for determining what is appropriate for their character, not some two-dimensional attempt to stereotype an entire character race D&D style.
| QUOTE (KarmaInferno) |
| I could cut a hole in a shapeshifter, shove a remote-detonate bomb in a thus exposed body cavity, and grin as it sealed inside the poor fragger? |
Almost. You could cut the hole in the shapeshifter, you could shove the bomb in, but his body would eject the bomb before it sealed itself up.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 04:19 PM
If I were to, for whatever reason, allow cultured bioware, I would also have the body absorb it and render it non-functional if it ever took Stress.
~J
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 05:08 PM
Of course everyone is forgetting one small point. If you are the GM in your own campaign YOU get to decide what does what. I see no reason a shapeshifter could not have cultured Bioware if they could find a doctor they trust enough to make it.
Implanting would be easy as all you would have to do in a Shapeshifters case is inject a few cells and let the natural regeneration take care of the rest. A few days later the piece of bioware should be fully grown. Now of course there are a few items they could not get. Muscle Augmentations and Orthoskin, being most notable.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 05:10 PM
I see no reason why it would repair to a new state rather than just entirely replacing the new organ with stuff equivalent to the functionality of the original.
~J
Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Nov 8 2004, 05:10 PM
This came up in my game. If you go by the book (To a point) no one can start with cultured bio. I think that shifters should be aloud to use cultured bio but they would have to get it in game play and I made them pay three times the surgary cost (Because its hard to operate on some one who keeps healing)
So far its been ok, the player is not over powered and seems to make sence that cultured would shift with him. I did not think about the double bio index cost, But I like that idea. Makes good sence.
Posted by: BitBasher Nov 8 2004, 05:12 PM
Uh no, those cells would be foreign and killed immediately by the regeneration IMHO.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 05:13 PM
On the contrary, if you go by the book cultured bio is available. Some may consider it a good idea to use the presented optional rule, some may not, but it is no more a part of pure canon than the deadlier overdamage rules.
Edit: incorrect terminology. It is canon, but it is not the only way presented, nor even the primary one. Therefore, calling it by the book is misleading.
~J
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 05:16 PM
thx for your detailed answer doc,
i guess those silly rules have already been deleted 
, i couldnīt find them following your link.
IMO the problem with shapeshifters and cultured bioware is not to reason why it should be allowed but why it shouldnīt. the rules are absolutely clear about cyberware and common sense tells me that normal bioware isnīt allowed either, but from a genetical/scientifical PoV thereīs no reason not to allow for cultured bioware.
i canīt jibe with you (and the stupid rules ) saying bioware shouldnīt regenerate because it wasnīt paid for with essence. i think thereīs no need to pay for anything with essence that has become a natural part of your body and that even taps into your bodies healing powers. i think cultured bioware should benefit from regeneration.
Posted by: Bigity Nov 8 2004, 05:18 PM
Wouldn't ever be allowed in one of my games. I do kind of like the idea of getting rid of the whole buy two sets of physical attributes thing though.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 05:23 PM
| QUOTE (Cymophane) |
| IMO the problem with shapeshifters and cultured bioware is not to reason why it should be allowed but why it shouldnīt. the rules are absolutely clear about cyberware and common sense tells me that normal bioware isnīt allowed either, but from a genetical/scientifical PoV thereīs no reason not to allow for cultured bioware. i canīt jibe with you (and the stupid rules ) saying bioware shouldnīt regenerate because it wasnīt paid for with essence. i think thereīs no need to pay for anything with essence that has become a natural part of your body and that even taps into your bodies healing powers. i think cultured bioware should benefit from regeneration. |
At best, I'd let it work until it got damaged. Once it got damaged, the body would restore it to functional order: as the original organ.
Remember that stressed bioware is actively harmful to an individual.
That being said, from a scientific/surgical point of view there are a lot of reasons why you shouldn't be able to get cultured bio in a shifter in the first place.
~J
Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Nov 8 2004, 05:24 PM
ya, the two attributes was hell for this poor player. He is a damn bear and the troll could kick his a$$. Oh well. Thats part of the reason I let the cultered bio in. Give him something. I mean they can not even start game with money, so they get the most basic starting amount of spell points. It would be sad if it was not so funny.
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 05:25 PM
And that is your choice, but no one but the GM of the game has the power to say yes or no on any subject in that campaign, not even Fan Pro. You may make your suggestions, provide arguments, and even propose a compromise, but in the end it is the GM who says yes of no.
Posted by: Cochise Nov 8 2004, 06:14 PM
O.k. some thoughts on this (including a reference to those "silly suggestions" Doc F has mentioned *I got an email including these ideas during the days when Mike Mulvihill was linedeveloper*):
By canon it's actually only cyberware that is a no go for shifters.
But what about bioware?
The first question would be: What do you consider the "regeneration power" to be?
Is it
a) a purely magical property of beings with that power or
b) a genetically encoded trait in the DNA of those beings ?
In the latter case it should be possible to transfer the responsible genes into shifter-bioware.
Now the next question is: Is human and shifter bioware the same?
Answer: Most definitely not. Regardless of being standard or cultered bioimplants, all implants for humans are either type-O or especially cloned tissues with human DNA basis. Thus you'd need the same basic research and development for shifter-compatible bioware implants as the one that was done for human bioware implants. Given the fact that shifters are quite rare and not too many would actually be interested in having such implants, such research programs would be of no potential profit for corps aside from the pure knowlegde. Additionally the same effect that would be the main goal of such research (regenerating biowarimplants) would be a major hinderance to the reasearch itself.
So even if a corp were to invest in such research, the implants would have a much higher cost and avail rating than their human counterparts. Here comes what Mike suggested to me: price * 4, doubled avail rating, SI * 2
Cultured or standard?
Standard bioware means mass production and finding type-O material. As mentioned in the previous section, research on shifter-ware would be rare and cost intensive. So it's likelier that it remains a technique on the cultured level for each individual rather than going into mass production.
I can see an argument being made here for cultured implants having bioindex values of standard implants (when compared to human counterparts) or simply doubling the bioindex values. The suggestions of Mike didn't include anything the like.
How to do the surgery?
Regeneration obviously doesn't make it too easy here. The consequence would be that any attempt of implantation should be connected to a deadly wound (opposed to human surgery rules where bioindex / essence cost determines wound levels of surgery), since you'd have to bring the shifter to a point where his regenerations fails. Then do the implantation and have him heal conventionally. Later on those shifter-organs would regenerate with the same restrictions as the shifter himself. However, any stress to those organs would still lead to one permanent stress point, regardless of regeneration.
This surgery part was were Mike also suggested that involved surgeons could possibly be magicians using a weapon focus scalpel, since the use of such a focus would lead to a sooner failure of regeneration. It wasn't considered to be a "must" however.
Other consequences?
The high-tech and magical resources involved in such an implantation are very similar to those of cybermancy. Thus any shifter undergoing such implantation would most likely end up as the responsible corp's (literal) "pet". Normal shifters are already a certain problem when incorporating them into "normal" running scenarios, but this would put them into yet another very restricetd area of the SR-setting.
Bottom line:
It can be done, if you actually feel the need for it. However, it's rather cost intensive and limiting in context of the normal SR-setting ...
I wouldn't recommend on allowing it into normal campaigns
Posted by: GaiasWrath8 Nov 8 2004, 06:25 PM
Thanks for the well drawn out points. At the very least its food for throught.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 06:25 PM
Keep in mind that by canon a Shifter has no overflow. If they hit ten boxes and fail the regen test, you have a cooling hunk of biomass on the operating table.
~J
Posted by: Cochise Nov 8 2004, 06:29 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Keep in mind that by canon a Shifter has no overflow. If they hit ten boxes and fail the regen test, you have a cooling hunk of biomass on the operating table. ~J |
Wrong ... NPC-shifter do not have an overflow .. PC-shifters do have an overflow. Yet another point were PC and NPC shifters aren't the same --
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 06:31 PM
~J
Posted by: Cochise Nov 8 2004, 06:38 PM
Take your SRComp and read the section on regeneration and its failure.
Currenttly my english version of SRComp is out of reach and I guess you wouldn't take my word that the english and the german version are identical in that point 
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 8 2004, 06:40 PM
Cochise is correct. While I don't have my SRComp handy, the rules for Shapeshifter PCs mention that they will die if they don't receive medical attention after failing their Regeneration Test as per the rules for standard characters. That includes overflow.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 06:44 PM
Interesting.
Thanks. Now to find where that copy of SRComp got buried
Edit: though in this matter, I probably would have taken your word on the German one 
~J
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 06:48 PM
Cochise :
"The first question would be: What do you consider the "regeneration power" to be?
Is it
a) a purely magical property of beings with that power or
b) a genetically encoded trait in the DNA of those beings ?"
Assumed that b) is right (which i do think btw.) AND also applies to the ability to shapechange i have to argue with Mike saying it would be more difficult/expensive to grow cultured bioware for shapeshifters. Letīs assume the subject receives itīs implants in human form, i.e. the physiognomy is that of a normal metahuman. M&M states that cultured b-ware is being fat grown from the cells of the person who will receive it. So the implant cloned has the same inherent genetic abilities as the recipient without additional difficulties/expenses -> it will change shape together with the rest of the recipientīs body and gains the benefits of regeneration. setting aside the problems of implantation itself, it should be a normal surgery.
I think Cochise is right about shapeshifters and damage overflow, at least i donīt know a rule saying otherwise.
Posted by: Cochise Nov 8 2004, 07:02 PM
| QUOTE (Cymophane) |
| Assumed that b) is right (which i do think btw.) AND also applies to the ability to shapechange i have to argue with Mike saying it would be more difficult/expensive to grow cultured bioware for shapeshifters. |
Note: Not all of these pointe came from Mike
Both cost and difficulty for such cloned implants can be higher than for human implants:
1. Development is very likely more cost intensive: Less samples to experiment on ad things like that
2. In production problems: You have to develop means to surpress the regeneration process on the vat grown implant to a certain extend or you'll end up with more than just the organ you wanted to grow.
| QUOTE |
| Letīs assume the subject receives itīs implants in human form, i.e. the physiognomy is that of a normal metahuman. M&M states that cultured b-ware is being fat grown from the cells of the person who will receive it. So the implant cloned has the same inherent genetic abilities as the recipient without additional difficulties/expenses -> it will change shape together with the rest of the recipientīs body and gains the benefits of regeneration. setting aside the problems of implantation itself, it should be a normal surgery. |
That was one of the basic asumptions behind cloned bioware. But if you were to create type-O implants based on shifter DNA, those implants would also have such traits. The difference between standard and cultured bioware is the fact that cultured bioware is a genetically full match while standard bioware only matches the relevant parts for immune system functions while the rest ist "neutral". The capability of shapechanging would be a necessary part of such implants.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 8 2004, 07:06 PM
The problem is that it doesn't matter if it matches. In effect, the shapeshifter completely rebuilds its body from scratch every time it gets wounded. It doesn't go "hmm, let me consult with this organ here to see if it's been genetically modified by science... oh, yes, what do you know, it has... let me adjust for that..."
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 07:09 PM
Only if that organ was damaged and even then if there is some of it left that organ will more than likely come back in it's modified form.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 07:11 PM
That's just it. There's no reason for it to come back in modified form.
~J
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 07:13 PM
While i can agree on point 2., i donīt on 1.
ok, i have to admit that i suppose a very close genetical relationship between normal metahumans and shapeshifters (thus not requiring further R&D on the scientistīs behalf). given that, i donīt see any relevant difference between normal and shifter cultured implants. one might even argue that the shapeshifterīs stem cells are more hardy and resistant and make the whole process easier (and a lot faster due to the regeneration power) thereby reducing costs.
Posted by: Cochise Nov 8 2004, 07:14 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| That's just it. There's no reason for it to come back in modified form. |
There's no reason to come back in its modified form once it is completely destroyed (as in no single cell survived the attack). Otherwise it would be the organ itself which starts its own regeneration process ...
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 07:15 PM
I agree, if the organ is completely destroyed it will come back as a 'normal' organ. However if there are sizable pieces remaining the regnerated tissue will be grown from that, thus rebuilding the organ.
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Nov 8 2004, 07:15 PM
First, the surgery wouldn't actually be that hard, use a silver scalpel and the openings will take just as long to close as a regular scalpel with a human. The anesthetics would need to be a higher dose, and an alleviate allergy spell would be helpful (otherwise, the flesh will still rash around the incisions).
As for whether the bioware would regenerate, GM call. Distributed bioware would be much harder to "lose completely" as a result of damage, but it would also make sense if the regenerated areas wouldn't have the bioware modification.
As a consequence, I suggest allowing shifters to get genetech (at double cost or so), but no surgical replacements that have different DNA than the rest of the creature.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 8 2004, 07:16 PM
Look at it this way, lorthazar. Say you manage to tattoo a shapeshifter with some kind of funky tattoo focus gizmo and for whatever reason, it sticks. Now that shapeshifter gets his flesh torn off.
Do you think the tattoo would return, too? Same difference.
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 07:20 PM
[The problem is that it doesn't matter if it matches. In effect, the shapeshifter completely rebuilds its body from scratch every time it gets wounded. It doesn't go "hmm, let me consult with this organ here to see if it's been genetically modified by science... oh, yes, what do you know, it has... let me adjust for that..." ]
What about the genetic modifications introduced in SOTA ī63? They follow bioware rules and can even be applied "in utero" thus becoming an integral part of the subjectīs body on the level of the basic genetic programm available in each of her cells...do you think these wonīt "regrow" either?
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 8 2004, 07:23 PM
I'd consider allowing it on a case-by-case basis. But Genetech isn't Bioware. It just affects the user's Bio Index.
Note that even if I was on crack and allowed Bioware or Genetech to be applied to shapeshifters, I'd apply the Healing Test modifier from Bio Index to the Regeneration Test. In other words, every +1 modifier the Bio Index causes would increase the chances of a failed Regeneration Test.
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 07:24 PM
Not remotely same differenence.
Tattooing is the addition of a foreign substance to your skin that is otherwise inert.
Bioware is a living mass of flesh that, if cultured, you body sees as part of it. It has the same DNA (slightly modified but then again skins cells are slightly different than liver cells), the right protein complexes, and it is LIVING. Over time it has to replace old cells that died off, so it not out of line that the organ would grow back the way it was. Now that would be contignet on some piece of it being left. Blow a 3 inch wide hole throught the throat of a charging werewolf and he can kiss his suprathyroid good bye.
Posted by: Cochise Nov 8 2004, 07:26 PM
| QUOTE (Cymophane) |
| While i can agree on point 2., i donīt on 1. |
That's your perogative
| QUOTE |
| ok, i have to admit that i suppose a very close genetical relationship between normal metahumans and shapeshifters (thus not requiring further R&D on the scientistīs behalf). |
And that's something that I have to disagree with. All of the shifters are awakened forms of their unawakened species (shifters are born to unawakened members of their species). None of the canon shifter species is genetically "close" to the human DNA (even with match rates of above 80% and in some cases 90%)
Real world xeno-transplantaions (like chimpanese hearts) are extremely difficult on the involved gentic level. And a chimp is most definitely closer to a human than a tiger or bear.
| QUOTE |
| given that, i donīt see any relevant difference between normal and shifter cultured implants. |
I do see many problems on the way to a functional process. You seem to think that once you have mastered the process for the humans, you can simply apply that knowledge to the shifter process. And that's something that's very unlikely. First of all you have to develop a process for each shifter species. Then you have to deal with problems each of these species poses to the process itself. While the final processes might be identical up 99% the cost factor difference can still be much higher than just 1 % ....
| QUOTE |
| one might even argue that the shapeshifterīs stem cells are more hardy and resistant and make the whole process easier (and a lot faster due to the regeneration power) thereby reducing costs. |
And such a resistance would cause a significantly higher amount of research during the development process ... thus increasing the cost on that level.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 07:26 PM
As soon as an implant has taken stress, it is actively harmful. It will be recognized as such, and healed. This involves returning it to its original state.
~J
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 07:32 PM
Two ways to look at that man.
A: The body completely regrows the organ (still harmful, as the body has now lost abilities doh.)
B: The organ repairs the stress untill it become useful again
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 8 2004, 07:33 PM
It's obvious that you want this to work despite all the logic contrary to the phenomenon. Go for it in your setting. Just know that it's not backed up by much more than your conviction.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 07:34 PM
But it is explicitly stated that a piece of bioware may never be reduced below 1 Stress once it has taken Stress. The only way to heal it is to purge it one way or another.
~J
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 07:38 PM
what about applying the regeneration roll (1D6) to a deadly wounded organ? that would be as close to RAW as possible. if it "saves" it recovers, if not itīs dead...
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 07:39 PM
Actually it is backed by a firm grasp of how I view regeneration to work. Also backed by GURPS Biotech a much more well researched and thought out version of bioware and genetic engineering.
Besides like I keep saying it is the GM of the game that has final say. You can argue all you want but in the end (s)he has the say that counts.
(BTW it's not all good for Shapeshifters headshots tend to give them Amnesia in my game lol)
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 07:42 PM
| QUOTE (Cymophane) |
| what about applying the regeneration roll (1D6) to a deadly wounded organ? that would be as close to RAW as possible. if it "saves" it recovers, if not itīs dead... |
Two problems:
One, excessively high change of recovery. I think the chance should be at or near zero, but five in six is blatantly excessive.
Two, this should happen if the organ takes any damage whatsoever. The body itself should do the rest of the killing.
~J
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 07:44 PM
if you reason that way Kagetenshi you seem to have a problem with how regeneration itself works...
Posted by: mfb Nov 8 2004, 07:48 PM
edit: bah. stupid multi-page threads.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 07:50 PM
Says who? Regenerating the body in general seems to me to be easier than regenerating a specific custom organ in a specific custom fashion rather than just wiping it.
~J
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 07:54 PM
Letīs say our shapeshifter is hit right into his chest and some part of his heart is badly damaged but the heart still keeps working...i donīt think the whole heart will die, suppurate out of his body and then regrow, i rather think the shapeshifters body begins to rebuild the damaged body part.
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 07:54 PM
So you are saying that it would be easier for the body to grow a whole new liver becuase one lobe is damaged, then it would be for the undmaged lobe to simply grow the other lobe over gain with it's Toxing Extractor DNA.
BTW I use this example becuase you can remove either lobe of a liver from a human being and the liver will regrow over time.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 07:55 PM
But if the heart continued to malfunction, the parts that malfunctioned would be replaced by standard tissue.
The bioware supplying the extra abilities was malfunctioning and got replaced with standard tissue.
~J
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 08:00 PM
yes, but thatīs where the regeneration roll kicks in:
as long as thereīs still a working part of the organ left (say, the organ rolled all but 1) it will regrow in itīs actual state (as a bio-enhanced one), if the organ is totally destroyed, it regrows as an original (unaugmented) one.
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 08:01 PM
Do you just refuse to see what we are saying? If parts were being regrown it would be becuase of the mitosis of nearby cells. In this case the cells with the altered DNA.
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 08:02 PM
"The bioware supplying the extra abilities was malfunctioning and got replaced with standard tissue."
Why? M&M says that bioware is able to regrow when itīs damaged but not totally destroyed. Regeneration does so, only faster.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 08:05 PM
But if you read the Stress Rules, bioware can never be reduced below 1 Stress once it gets any, so you have an injury that only heals with the destruction of the modified organ.
If the 'ware did persist for some reason, I'd probably treat it as a permanent Light or Moderate wound as the body continually tries and fails to repair the damage.
~J
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 08:07 PM
Who says Bioware stress exists in my game? My players have too much to do and keep track of already.
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 08:07 PM
Well, thatīs right, but the rules arenīt perfect...i would rule that it regenerates even that point. I think that would fit the whole regeneration idea.
Posted by: Zeel De Mort Nov 8 2004, 08:10 PM
Okay, next:
What about vampires? What if someone is Infected with HMHVV and turns into a vampire, but previous to that had had, oh, let's say a kidney replaced? What if it was a clonal replacement, would it always regenerate? What about Type O?
What about replacement limbs clonal/Type O - do they fall off when someone starts regenerating for the first time, or do they regrow just like everything else?
If cultured implants are forced out, why aren't cultured replacement organs?
If replacement limbs/organs are not regenerated, but a new "real" one grows in their place, how did the body know to do that? How does it know not to regenerate bioware, or genetech?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 08:10 PM
Then go for it, but don't try to claim it's canon.
~J
Posted by: Mercer Nov 8 2004, 08:11 PM
The real question is what would happen if you cut a shapeshifter exactly in half. Would they regrow into two shapeshifters that would then be the most in sequence tap dance duo in the History of the World, or would they have three left feet?
The fundamental problem I have is that it is using technological means to alter what is a magical creature. I think it is an intriguing idea, perhaps worthy of designing an adventure around. (Corp kidnaps shifters, one escapes, her body wracked with malfunctioning organs making her rabid or crazy, that the group gets involved with and has to help, possibly hitting the original facility to get research data or get the other shifters out, etc etc.)
But Bioware is a relaively new technology (ten years or so), and shifters have never been studied extensively, so I don't think the two would go together like chocolate and peanut butter. For it to filter down to the street level, or be anything other than a laboratory exercise, would be beyond the scope of the current timeline. I'd save it for a Ghosts of Mars shadowrun game set in 2164 or some such.
(In the interest of full disclosure, I should also point out that I house ruled Regeneration. There's a couple of variations by critter, but Shapechangers heal Stun every three seconds, and they heal Physical Wounds at the rate normal people heal stun.)
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 08:13 PM
Did I try to claim it's Canon? Do I care if it's Canon? Do my player care if it's Canon? The answer to all the above a resounding NO! I kicked all the rules lawyers out my group. We're here to have fun. Sometimes to do that the rules go out the window.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 08:16 PM
More accurately, don't try to claim that it is consistent logically or thematically with canon.
~J
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 08:25 PM
You remind me of a player I used to have who always tried to make sure he had the most powerful character. He did this by being the most ruthless rules lawyer I had ever seen. Any interesting idea the other players had and spent time researching reason why it would work, he would shoot down based on the it's not in the books argument. Every time I allowed it to go through despite his objection he would kill that character either directly or by setting them up.
I will say it fits thematically and logically, becuase unlike you I understand that when man is challenged he doesn't play by the rules. Everything in the Shadowrun universe needs to be taken with huge amount of salt. Somethings I keep the way they are becuase it helps with the game balance. Other things i look at and say "Well, guess someone was asleep at the wheel." And still other things I have added in to make life interesting.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 08:32 PM
The original question was, in essence, "can you do this". Since we can do anything the GM allows, including having the Moon as a dikoted weapon focus, the only reasonable assumption is that the question addresses whether or not it is reasonable to do this in Canon.
Bioware can be implanted by placing it on top of your head and letting it crawl into the proper place in your game. That isn't how it works in canon, and things rationalized by the top-of-head method won't apply in canon.
And I have no idea what relevance "when man is challenged he doesn't play by the rules" has to the discussion. Thanks for the implication that I'm as stupid as someone who seems to have forgotten that the other players are going to be watching his back, though. On the other hand, if that's all you have you're being blatantly unfair, because if the rules and flavour text neither state nor imply that something should happen, the player has, get this, no canon support. All they have is GM fiat, and it is not only reasonable but good that someone point this out.
~J
Posted by: Bigity Nov 8 2004, 08:34 PM
I don't see how being against shapeshifters getting bioware is in any way a play to have the most powerful character? Not that it really matters.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 8 2004, 08:39 PM
| QUOTE (lorthazar @ Nov 8 2004, 02:25 PM) |
| You remind me of a player I used to have who always tried to make sure he had the most powerful character. |
As opposed to a bioware-totting shapeshifter that regenerates and automatically repairs all Stress to that bioware, neverminding that regeneration in and of itself is already way overboard. Right. Okay. I've gone and slipped into Bizarro World again.
I hate to break it to you, but it sounds exactly the opposite to me. You sound like the type of player who wants to break the game and have the most powerful character.
Posted by: Mercer Nov 8 2004, 08:40 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| More accurately, don't try to claim that it is consistent logically or thematically with canon. ~J |
Or (and I'm not taking sides), don't try to claim that Canon is always logically or thematically consistent. Sometimes the official rulings don't make a lot of sense, and sometimes they just go against the style of play a GM or a group has developed. SR has had a lot of masters over the years and its drifted back and forth, at times in a direction that I disagreed with (not that anyone should care).
Shapeshifters are a good example of this. They originally had a set of rules in the 1st and 2nd ed books based around them as critters. And when the Companion came out, they rewrote them as a PC race, which I disagreed with. I didn't understand why a pc shapechanger would have a Ess of 6 and a NPC would have an 8. Either shapechangers pcs should have worked just like npcs, or they should have rewritten the entire critter. Which is really neither here nor there in the context of the current discussion, I just thought I'd bring it up.
Posted by: Critias Nov 8 2004, 08:40 PM
Why bother asking what other people think, if you're going to call them oppressive munchkin rules lawyers if they give an answer you don't like?
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 08:40 PM
Yes, I agree it is good to point out that within the Rules Canon it is questionable.
As for the Thematically and Logically Canon, it fits quite well. Several times in Paranormal Animals of North America and Shadowtech were there references to geneticist playing around with awakened animal DNA. Extend this even a tiniest fraction and you could see how some experimental ShapeShifter bioware could exist.
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 08:43 PM
"...a bioware-totting shapeshifter that regenerates and automatically repairs all Stress to that bioware.."
Donīt get me wrong, i know that it is unbalancing or at least very powerful. But i started the thread to see if anybody has good and reasonable arguments besides game-balance that say it doesnīt work.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 08:46 PM
Again. Shapeshifter genetech, yes, but that is materially and significantly different from shifter 'ware.
~J
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 08:49 PM
| QUOTE |
| As opposed to a bioware-totting shapeshifter that regenerates and automatically repairs all Stress to that bioware, neverminding that regeneration in and of itself is already way overboard. Right. Okay. I've gone and slipped into Bizarro World again. I hate to break it to you, but it sounds exactly the opposite to me. You sound like the type of player who wants to break the game and have the most powerful character. |
Actually my PC is a Pretender Street Samurai with amnesia. He doesn't remember who he is, what he has done, or why several different group keep trying to subdue him. Sure he's a powerful character, but he's got som many RP hazards that it makes life hard.
No, the player I was referring to played a Hitmage with enough cyber to make life interesting and many quickened spells. He killed the one Sasquatch shaman we had, the Albino Dwarf Druid, a slew of Street Samurai, a Combat Decker, a former Navy SEALs physical adept, and the force 3 free ally spirit all in the matter of a year. Finally the group decided to fight fire with fire and set him up so that Lowfyr came down on his head.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 8 2004, 08:52 PM
Some people would argue that taking the Amnesia flaw in itself was a rather munchy thing to do. It lets you get away with a greatly reduced background story and gives you points for extra stuff.
Posted by: lorthazar Nov 8 2004, 08:56 PM
I made up a thirty page history for my GM for that character. I know what it is, but my character doesn't. I only took the 2 point version with which I bought college and tech school eduction. he knows a lot of stuff but nothing personal
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 09:01 PM
i donīt see a big difference between gentech and bioware. gentech changes cells, bioware consists of cells having undergone some kind of treatment to perform in another way. so i argue that gentech and bioware are very similar (thatīs why they share the same game mechanics -> bio-index). and note that we speak about cultured bioware here all the time, so a bioware, e.g. a gland that was cloned outside the body using the recipients stemcells is in no way different to, letīs say a bone structure enhancement that the body build itself because it was told doing so by gene therapy.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 8 2004, 09:02 PM
Genetech changes your DNA. Bioware replaces an organ. Huge difference.
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 09:08 PM
yes, it replaces the organ, but the organ itself is not just an normal cultured organ, like those 0-type replacements, itīs an organ that has been altered to outperform normal flesh. and, keeping in mind that this organ can heal itself, it needs a genetically altered cells, otherwise the new organ wouldnīt know how to stay alive and how to do itīs job.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 09:09 PM
| QUOTE (Cymophane) |
| so a bioware, e.g. a gland that was cloned outside the body using the recipients stemcells is in no way different to, letīs say a bone structure enhancement that the body build itself because it was told doing so by gene therapy. |
But when it goes to repair it, the geneteched shifter's "blueprint" is of the changed result, while the bioteched is of the original.
~J
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 09:15 PM
no, if it would work that way your fancy new adrenal-pump would get absorbed over time as we all know that even healthy organs are replaced bit by bit all the time. so the adrenal pump must "know" that it doesnīt work like a normal renal gland or it wouldnīt recreate itself as an enhanced version but as a normal one.
Posted by: BitBasher Nov 8 2004, 09:23 PM
It's entirely specluative to think that you can even change the genetic blueprint of a regenerating creature at all. heck, doing so may disable the regeneration, kill it, or have any of a hundred side effects.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 09:24 PM
| QUOTE (Cymophane) |
| no, if it would work that way your fancy new adrenal-pump would get absorbed over time as we all know that even healthy organs are replaced bit by bit all the time. so the adrenal pump must "know" that it doesnīt work like a normal renal gland or it wouldnīt recreate itself as an enhanced version but as a normal one. |
Do we even have evidence for what happens with long-term bioware? This may be accurate.
~J
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 09:26 PM
Some disbelivers said the same when they started doing stuff like that to "regular" metahumans. And notice: even those "regular" metahumans regenerate, just slower-paced and less efficient.
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 09:34 PM
"Do we even have evidence for what happens with long-term bioware? This may be accurate."
If that was the case bioware would come with a "lifetime" likes nanites do. Sth. like "the suprathyroid gland loses 5% of its efficiency each year because it lacks the ability to replace (heal) old and dying cells", but we know bioware is able to heal itself and therefore this doesnīt apply.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Nov 8 2004, 09:41 PM
We know that it doesn't have the ability to heal itself completely, because the first stress point any bioware takes is permanent.
Your cyberarm isn't going to last forever either, but it'll damn well outlast most Shadowrunners.
~J
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 09:51 PM
it doesnīt matter if itīs able to heal itself completely, even if it doesnīt recover that one point of stress it is still kinda immortal because it may heal all stress points that follow (correct me if i am wrong) as long as they donīt kill it outright.
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Nov 8 2004, 09:58 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| But if you read the Stress Rules, bioware can never be reduced below 1 Stress once it gets any, so you have an injury that only heals with the destruction of the modified organ. If the 'ware did persist for some reason, I'd probably treat it as a permanent Light or Moderate wound as the body continually tries and fails to repair the damage. |
I'm not sure this necessarily follows. The problem is, essentially, how far does regeneration go when healing a shapeshifter? More specifically, does the regen:
1) actually cut off old "damaged" limbs/organs and regrow them from scratch? This I think is extremely unlikely, for reasons that should be obvious to all.
2) heal damaged tissue completely and flawlessly, every single time? This I think just as unlikely. We know that in some cases regeneration does fail, so it is certainly capable of not always working right. From this, I extrapolate that even when the shapeshifter *does* regenerate, there are likely some bits that don't heal completely. This wouldn't lead to actual *wounds*, per se, but would give the shapeshifter a nifty scar or two. Which leads me to...
3) heal itself up as best it can, leaving scars and other "monir errors" alone? This I think makes the most sense thematically, as it seems to fit better as a biological system, rather than the all-or-nothing, perfect-or-dead theme of the first two options. It also fits better cinematically for me, as it means my shapeshifters can have belly buttons.
Now we move on to what is considered a "minor error". I for one am willing to accept one permenant bioware Stress point as a, "minor error," one that the body won't really worry enough about to try and fix. Sure it's not optimal from a player's perspective to have your bioware with that extra Stress point, but from a biological point of view it doesn't really hurt you mechanically, and so in that sense, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
So my conclusion would be: in the same way as for non-regenerating creatures, the first Stress Point for bioware does not immediately heal.
| QUOTE (Mercer) |
| The real question is what would happen if you cut a shapeshifter exactly in half. Would they regrow into two shapeshifters that would then be the most in sequence tap dance duo in the History of the World, or would they have three left feet? |
...
"Saeder-Krupp Research Experiment #N-7752-A..."
In all seriousness though, implanting cultured bioware in shapeshifters is probably something that won't reasonably be practicable--let alone available to the common shadowrunner--for quite some time. Other than a few cases of implanting bioware in certain Awakened critters, there's just no evidence suggesting that anyone's really tried to modify a shapeshifter with cultured 'ware. If you want to allow it, go right ahead, but at several people have already said, there's really no direct canon evidence backing you and a whole lot of circumstancial evidence indicating it's not possible.
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Nov 8 2004, 10:02 PM
As for the immortality issue, saying that something can regenerate does not mean that it's immortal, by any means. Humans can, in a way, regenerate, but we still have a finite lifespan. Starfish have far better regeneration than we do (cut a starfish in half, get two starfish), but their lifespan is only about 5-10 years.
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 10:11 PM
yes, thatīs right. but the piece of ware lasts as long as the body supporting it (supposed it doesnīt develop cancer for some reason). i wasnīt talking about real immortality, i just wanted to point out itīs not some kind of "one-shot" implant.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 8 2004, 10:16 PM
| QUOTE (Cymophane @ Nov 8 2004, 03:08 PM) |
| yes, it replaces the organ, but the organ itself is not just an normal cultured organ |
Actually, yes it is. The only difference is that they used your cells to create the organ rather than making it generic, thus decreasing your bodies chance of rejecting it completely (hence the lower, but not negated, impact on Bio Index).
| QUOTE |
| itīs an organ that has been altered to outperform normal flesh. and, keeping in mind that this organ can heal itself, it needs a genetically altered cells, otherwise the new organ wouldnīt know how to stay alive and how to do itīs job. |
You're confusing an organ's ability to repair itself with cells and nutrients the body supplies as the magic used in regeneration and shapeshifting (which are both directly related to each other). One's purely biological, one's purely magical.
Even if you want to ignore that, which I'm sure you do, you're still ignoring the bit about what's going on when a shapeshifter regenerates. They're not healling really, really, really fast -- they're completely rebuilding their body from scratch just as if they were shapeshifting.
Note also that most of the people on this thread who talked about allowing genetech have only said they might consider allowing it, not that they would. I most likely wouldn't allow it at all because magic has very little to do with genetics beyond an ambigious mention of a "mage factor" thought to possibly exist in genes.
Once magical bioware and genetech start showing up, I might change my mind. I personally hope it never does, however. I like my magic to be magic.
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 10:26 PM
Well, youīre right. i am assuming that the regeneration isnīt magical. my whole argumentation builds on that one thesis (as you surely have seen, careful reader that you are). and therefore your point may be reasonable but i wonīt discuss magical regeneration here, at least not as long as it isnīt reproduceable by cultured implants.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 8 2004, 10:30 PM
Why does everyone assume that I don't read what they've said just because I disagree with them? Oy.
But tell you what, if you want to go on believing that it's purely biological ability, point to a single non-magical entity in Shadowrun that has Regeneration (note the capital R). While you're at it, explain to me how completely rebuilding your body after a massive explosion in less than a second or two can be anything but magic.
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 11:00 PM
1.
i assume you havenīt read my post not because you disagree but because you shouldīve known that iīm talking about non-magical "racial" regeneration.
2.
when regenerationis directly linked to shapeshifting, why...
...doesnīt it require the shapeshanger to change?
...does it work on entities in shadowrun that have Regeneration (note the capital R), but no ability to shapechange?
3. and, ok, even if itīs magical...what happens to a samurai with an adrenal pump with severe damage who is healed by a mage?
a) does the magic render it useless because it wants to reestablish the bodyīs natural state?
b) does the magic repair the damage to the bioware?
(hint: you might want to read "magical healing and bioware stress" page 131 M&M)
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Nov 8 2004, 11:07 PM
1) Your desire for it to be non-magical has little to do with the nature of shapeshifters or, honestly, the discussion at hand, beyond your own personal interpretations.
2) Because in the case of a shapeshifter, their regeneration is in effect a lesser form of their shapeshifting ability. Transforming from a wolf into a human requires the complete construction of a human body; regeneration is a minor offshoot of that capability.
2c) I'm sure there's a few critters that have Regeneration but no form of shapeshifting abilities, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Great Dragons and Vampires both have shapeshifting capabilities, and I'm not even entirely sure if Great Dragons have Regeneration to begin with. Regardless, every critter that has Regeneration is extremely magical and supernatural in nature.
3) Magical healing has no effect on completely healing bioware stress (which is the term used for the damage bioware suffers). If a samurai gets so badly shot up that his adrenal pump suffers Deadly stress, no amount of Heal or Treat spells will repair that adrenal pump; it will always have a minimum of Light stress.
Posted by: Mercer Nov 8 2004, 11:13 PM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| While you're at it, explain to me how completely rebuilding your body after a massive explosion in less than a second or two can be anything but magic. |
"The science of any sufficiently advanced race will be indistinguishable for magic." IA.
Which is (like many of my comments) neither here nor there.
I've always treated the megladon as having non-magical regeneration. It doesn't replenish lost tissue immediately, its just so big and such a simple, efficient machine that you can blow and hunk of flesh the size of a volkswagon off of it and as long as it isn't brain, it won't really notice. The Regeneration Power is simply the best mechanic for representing this.
This is, however, as non-canon an interpretation as one can imagine, and therefore inadmissable in the argument as non-magic regeneration. Also, it has nothing to do with shapeshifters. It really doesn't apply at all. I return you to your regularly scheduled Two People Arguing About How An Imaginary Thing Works, already in progress.
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 11:16 PM
1. ok, i might be convinced that regeneration is magical
2. you didnīt read m&m 131 did you? stress can be reduced by magic healing.
i suggest a regeneration roll (as i said earlier) for deadly wounded organs.
3. setting aside the shapeshifter, what would happen to a dzoo -noo-qua with bioware instead (THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE !!!)? he canīt shapeshift, where does his regeneration come from?
Posted by: BitBasher Nov 8 2004, 11:25 PM
| QUOTE |
| 2. you didnīt read m&m 131 did you? stress can be reduced by magic healing. i suggest a regeneration roll (as i said earlier) for deadly wounded organs. |
| QUOTE |
| 3. setting aside the shapeshifter, what would happen to a dzoo -noo-qua with bioware instead (THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE !!!)? he canīt shapeshift, where does his regeneration come from? |
Posted by: Cymophane Nov 8 2004, 11:31 PM
yeah, but weīve already talked about that stress point a few pages ago. suggestions are:
it is removed too
it canīt be removed, but the remaining stress points are (even regenerationis not perfect, this would go by the rules)
iīm fine with both, i like the first one because it fits with the concept of regen and the second one goes by the RAW.
so i donīt see how you want to prove that regen doesnīt work with bioware by mentioning that stress point.
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