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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Elementals
Posted by: Walknuki Dec 5 2004, 11:28 AM
Something that's been bugging me about Shadowrun is Elementals for Mages. To me they seem prohibitively expensive. If you try to conjure a force six spirit with six levels in Conjuring. You'll roll about one service from it, and it'll cost you a cool $6,000 nuyen. You can use one service from it and then it's gone forever.
Basically a $6K grenade.
Even if you lower it to Force four it's still alot less powerful and you'll only get an extra one or two services out of it.
So what's the big deal with them? Why would you want to spend the time and energy trying to summon up these cash guzzlers?
One theory I have is that with the Aid Sorcery service, after the Spirit is reduced to 0 and vanishes, you can recall the spirit with an exclusive complex action and have it go back to Aiding Sorcery without expending another service. This would make it much much more useful.
I could see summoning up some force two and three elementals to get those few dice out of them for a whole run (and not just a single spell), and having different types of elementals bound for different spells.
Is that how it works, or does it take a whole new service after it gets reduced to 0 and gets Recalled to get your Elemental Aiding Sorcery again?
Is there something else I'm missing? Something I'm not getting? Please let me know. Convince me that Elementals are a good investment for a SR Team and not a waste of nuyen.
Posted by: Fortune Dec 5 2004, 12:23 PM
Using Enchanting to create your own Conjuring Materials greatly reduces the costs involved.
Posted by: Seizure Dec 5 2004, 02:52 PM
Permanent circles are a big help too. They cost a bit more, but if you summon like...6 elementals at a time, it's already more than paid for itself versus the cost of summoning them all individually.
Then you get to do it all again after the services are used up. Unless you're on the move...then well, it already more than paid for itself yesterday, so you're still ahead.
Posted by: toturi Dec 5 2004, 03:05 PM
Wait till you initiate... Great Form Elementals on stand by are a surefire tactic of cleaning house.
Posted by: Synner Dec 5 2004, 03:10 PM
Enchanting and using permanent Hermetic Circles are particularly useful techniques for lowering the cost of Elementals. Having a nice Negotiation skill rating and friendly talismonger contacts also helps.
Also note that Force 5+ Elementals, given their inherent physical Powers and the rules for Immunity to Normal Weapons in particular, are pretty good allies to have on your side in a firefight.
Posted by: Crusher Bob Dec 5 2004, 03:26 PM
The way I always looked at it was that thy were cheaper that hospital time. If you are at a serious wound and being surrounded, having 6 force 6 elementals pop up and cleaning house will really help out. So most of my elemenals are really saved 'for a rainy day. IIRC you can call all your elementals with complex action, so if you are a 'fast mage' you can call them with action one, and tell them to start the killin' with action two.
Posted by: Snow_Fox Dec 5 2004, 03:56 PM
I prefer shamanistic characters but the elements are "expensive" but useful. Usually I've only had them at level 4 and used them for spell support or their secondary effects-like having a wall of flame materialize inside a building can cause all sorts of nasty surprises.
Posted by: Cray74 Dec 5 2004, 04:30 PM
Can't you attempt to get more services out of an Elemental without spending materials? Crap, I don't even know what the term is to look it up in SR3 or MitS. Rebinding?
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 5 2004, 04:37 PM
No, you need more material components for the additional summonings, too.
As Fortune said, but got slightly wrong, all you need is a decent Talismongering skill and you can produce all the conjuring materials you want for next to nothing. You can either go out and harvest your own raw materials, or just buy the cheaper raw or refined materials (such as Herbal materials) from a Talismonger. Once you got 'em, it's just a matter of a little time to change them into Conjuring Materials.
If you do it during your downtime, you can have a stockpile of 'em in no time.
Posted by: Fortune Dec 5 2004, 05:24 PM
D'oh ... I knew that too! 
Posted by: hyzmarca Dec 5 2004, 06:17 PM
Elementals have to avantage that that you can send them to perform a service half way across the world while you remain in the comfort. Want someone dead, just summon a fire elemental and command it to find and engulf your target untill he is dead. That's only two services. Grenades and guided missiles can't do that.
If you like the more hand-on aproach, try channeling a high force great-form elemental while under the influance of Spirit Strength. Your stat bonuses will make the initiate adept and the wired Sammy cry.
Posted by: lodestar Dec 5 2004, 06:39 PM
Elementals can also help with spell research, making foci and ritual magic. In each of these cases the money spent on the elemental probably more than makes up for guaranteeing sucesses - especailly when making foci, because if you get no sucesses, you still use up that chunk of very difficult to get dragonscale/orichalcum/vampire dust/drop of harlequin blood in the process.
Posted by: Walknuki Dec 5 2004, 08:17 PM
I suppose refining your own materials would save a good deal of money. How much do you think a Talismonger would sell unrefined summoning materials for? About $350 a unit? It not too much and not quit half (Unrefined summoning materials make $500 worth when refined).
Also I suppose if you're just going to use it for Aid Sorcery, basically a glorified Expendable Spell Focus foci, it's cheaper per level than an actual Expendable Foci. And you get a chance that it has more than one use. Also a chance that it goes crazy and eats your face during summoning.
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Dec 5 2004, 08:43 PM
Look at Magic in the Shadows. Raw herbal or iron-based enchanting materials cost 50 
a pop; tin and lead 30 a pop. Refined versions cost twice as much, and radicals (used for foci and orichalcum) twice that again. Generally the only time you don't want to buy pre-refined units are if you're looking to get gold radicals for orichalcum (gold costs 10,000 raw, 20,000 refined and 40,000 radical); everything else is fairly cheap to get pre-refined or radical.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 5 2004, 08:45 PM
"Unrefined summoning materisl" are Refined Materials. "Unrefined refined materials" are Raw Materials. Both are listed in the back of MitS, and it doesn't matter one iota which type you use -- the process for creating Conjuring Materials works with any material.
Raw Herbal or Iron Materials are 50 nuyen a unit, and Refined units of the same are 100 nuyen a unit. Tin and Lead are even cheaper at 30/60 a unit. Once you have a bunch, each unit can be transformed into 500-nuyen worth of any type of ritual material (including Elemental Conjuring Materials) by making a Talismongering (4) Test with a base time of 24 hours. Each success divides that time.
In otherwords, anyone with Talismongering 6 can turn a 60 nuyen investment into a 500 nuyen investment every 8 hours. That's 55-nuyen an hour, just FYI. If you have an appropriate Comlimentary Skill, it'll add 1 or 2 successes on top of that each time, lowering the time to 4.8 to 6 hours a go.
Thus my suggestion to just do it during downtime. After a while of doing that, you'll have all the materials you'll ever need... especially if you have a reasonable amount of downtime in between runs (a month or so).
Posted by: Moonstone Spider Dec 5 2004, 08:46 PM
This leads to an interesting question. If materials are easily made for almost nothing, why do they cost so much to buy?
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 5 2004, 08:47 PM
Because prices for magic, software, and cyberware (and a few other things) are absolutely idiotic.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 5 2004, 08:50 PM
I personally think that the rules for creating magical gear and software are the idiotic parts, but yeah, there's idiocy in there.
~J
Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Dec 5 2004, 08:51 PM
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider @ Dec 5 2004, 04:46 PM) |
| This leads to an interesting question. If materials are easily made for almost nothing, why do they cost so much to buy? |
Profit.
To give a real-world example, I'm pretty sure that the average mass-printed book has a per-unit cost of a few cents (to print it), but look at the retail price for each one at Borders. Seems fairly likely it works the same way for magical materials.
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Dec 5 2004, 09:00 PM
Even moreso because they can't be mass-produced. Each unit has to be hand-crafted by a specialist, and so the pricing guides tend to look like what people charge for works of art rather than for mass-produced goods.
The hardware/software stuff that deckers have to deal with... I honestly can't find any reason for that other than balance. Especially annoying is how the vast majority of the "hardware" costs are from *software*; an MPCP's software, for ecample, costs anywhere from 25 to 130+ times more than its hardware. It's like decks are actually made by spending thousands of man-hours carefully wiring up pieces of string.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 5 2004, 09:01 PM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Dec 5 2004, 02:50 PM) |
| I personally think that the rules for creating magical gear and software are the idiotic parts, but yeah, there's idiocy in there. |
Both are, but the creation rules at least tend to use more reasonable base costs.
14,400-nuyen for a simple Read/Write 6 utility? Please.
Posted by: ES_Riddle Dec 5 2004, 09:53 PM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Dec 5 2004, 04:01 PM) |
| 14,400-nuyen for a simple Read/Write 6 utility? Please. |
Remember that that Read/Write utility is letting you illegally read and write at 6 times your normal rate of success. A somewhat bright individual who doesn't know what he or she is doing but is using that "simple" utility will be about twice as likely to succeed (depending on TN) as a professional who doesn't have it. It seems to me that it isn't that bad of a deal, though it is somewhat overpriced.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| That's 55-nuyen an hour, just FYI. |
Kind of a crummy wage for someone who is a high-end talismonger. A skill rating of 6 may be common in the shadows, but your typical professional only has a 4. The rating 4 guy is going to make under 6000¥ per month, assuming no overhead other than the cost of materials.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Dec 5 2004, 10:33 PM
| QUOTE (ES_Riddle) | ||
Kind of a crummy wage for someone who is a high-end talismonger. A skill rating of 6 may be common in the shadows, but your typical professional only has a 4. The rating 4 guy is going to make under 6000¥ per month, assuming no overhead other than the cost of materials. |
Right, and 6000
a month is more than enough to support a middle lifestyle - which is about what you can expect if you're not a wildly successful shadowrunner or a corp exec. Don't forget that Mr rating 4 Talismonger can also supplement his income setting up wards for 100
per hour if he needs a bit of extra spending cash.
Posted by: Cray74 Dec 5 2004, 11:10 PM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Both are, but the creation rules at least tend to use more reasonable base costs. 14,400-nuyen for a simple Read/Write 6 utility? Please. |
Hey, Doc, care to guess what some new stainless bolts are going to cost when I get done designing them, if you factor in the engineering costs? And the costs for buying the specialty stainless steel and setting up the tooling for a tiny run of bolts?
I can entirely believe that speciality hacking software goes for 14,400 nuyen. You're not selling a lot of copies of something that cost a lot of weeks of writing effort.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 5 2004, 11:20 PM
Out of interest, how much will they cost?
~J
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Dec 5 2004, 11:35 PM
Well, as an analogy it's probably why government toilets cost $10,000 each. 
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 5 2004, 11:58 PM
Read/Write is not "special hacking software," just like most Operational Utilities (such as Analyze or Browse). It simply makes it easier for a user to transfer, create, or edit files. It's essentially a word processor/simple media editor/upload-download utility.
There's nothing illegal about it in any way, shape, or form. It's not rare (someone with an Etiquette of 2 or higher pretty much can get it, guaranteed). It's not a specialty item. And it's most certainly not a state-of-the-art recent breakthrough of technology.
In other words, it's the equivalence of charging 14,4000 nuyen for something like Microsoft Office. As a comparison, Microsoft Office Professional 2003 is only $500. Even a Rating 3 Read/Write utility (which would be closer to Wordpad in its "power", with Notepad being closer to a Rating 1 utility) costs 1,800 nuyen.
Note that without the utility, you're basically doing the equivalence of a COPY CON command in DOS. These utilities help you work more efficiently and better.
Posted by: Shockwave_IIc Dec 6 2004, 12:31 AM
| QUOTE (Cray74 @ Dec 5 2004, 11:10 PM) |
| I can entirely believe that speciality hacking software goes for 14,400 nuyen. You're not selling a lot of copies of something that cost a lot of weeks of writing effort. |
Maybe not quite that much but i do see where your coming from.
Another example that may make some of you sick.
Games Workshop sell a space marine model for £7, staff can buy that model at "lead weight" which is £30 a kilo, which makes said model cost about 50p (might of changed this was 4 year ago), and im certain GW STILL makes a profit on that.
What worst if they mail order it at lead weight, then the prices that they are charged are with flash and growths cut off thus it weighs less!!
Posted by: Jason Farlander Dec 6 2004, 01:02 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Read/Write is not "special hacking software," just like most Operational Utilities (such as Analyze or Browse). It simply makes it easier for a user to transfer, create, or edit files. It's essentially a word processor/simple media editor/upload-download utility. There's nothing illegal about it in any way, shape, or form. It's not rare (someone with an Etiquette of 2 or higher pretty much can get it, guaranteed). It's not a specialty item. And it's most certainly not a state-of-the-art recent breakthrough of technology. In other words, it's the equivalence of charging 14,4000 nuyen for something like Microsoft Office. As a comparison, Microsoft Office Professional 2003 is only $500. Even a Rating 3 Read/Write utility (which would be closer to Wordpad in its "power", with Notepad being closer to a Rating 1 utility) costs 1,800 nuyen. Note that without the utility, you're basically doing the equivalence of a COPY CON command in DOS. These utilities help you work more efficiently and better. |
I think youre wrong there, Dr F. Unless I am mistaken, all of the utilities listed both SR3 and Matrix are, in fact, programmed for the sole purpose of aiding in illegal hacking of computer systems. Normal, non-illegal attempts to read and edit files would not involve making a test against the "File" rating of the host - at most, it would be a simple computer (4) test, if a test were required at all.
I dont have my books with me to back this up with numbers and the like, but, honestly, I think you might want to re-evaluate your position on what utilities actually are. If nothing else, the cost certainly makes more sense when viewed in this light.
Oh, and since you seem to be implying otherwise: availability has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with how easy an item is to find legally. I wouldnt say that its even possible to legally acquire decking utilities, since, by their nature, they're used for illegal purposes (though "security deckers" would be able to acquire them quasi-legally through their employers). So, while it might be easy for someone with an Etiquette of 2 to find such a program, they would still need to know an appropriate contact.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 6 2004, 01:03 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Dec 5 2004, 06:58 PM) |
| Read/Write is not "special hacking software," just like most Operational Utilities (such as Analyze or Browse). It simply makes it easier for a user to transfer, create, or edit files. It's essentially a word processor/simple media editor/upload-download utility. There's nothing illegal about it in any way, shape, or form. It's not rare (someone with an Etiquette of 2 or higher pretty much can get it, guaranteed). It's not a specialty item. And it's most certainly not a state-of-the-art recent breakthrough of technology. In other words, it's the equivalence of charging 14,4000 nuyen for something like Microsoft Office. As a comparison, Microsoft Office Professional 2003 is only $500. Even a Rating 3 Read/Write utility (which would be closer to Wordpad in its "power", with Notepad being closer to a Rating 1 utility) costs 1,800 nuyen. Note that without the utility, you're basically doing the equivalence of a COPY CON command in DOS. These utilities help you work more efficiently and better. |
This isn't a fair assessment, IMO. Read/Write, Browse, etc. only apply when accessing a system illegally; they are not used by legitimate users. Read/Write probably has more to do with the spoofing of the access logs, reading the bits from RAM or getting the system to write the new version as a cron-job so that there isn't anything noting it as suspicious, etc. than the literal act of altering the text.
And no, I don't think there's a defensible modern-day analogy for the way it works, but then the systems are rather different and I personally prefer that the description apply to what it does that the user cares about than necessarily all of the details of how.
Edit: I'm slow today.
~J
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Dec 6 2004, 01:06 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Dec 5 2004, 06:58 PM) |
| Read/Write is not "special hacking software," just like most Operational Utilities (such as Analyze or Browse). It simply makes it easier for a user to transfer, create, or edit files. It's essentially a word processor/simple media editor/upload-download utility. |
This isn't true at all. Read/Write isn't an editing program at all; in fact, changing the contents of a file on your own "hard drive" requires no test at all, let alone any test which the R/W utility assists at. Certainly you don't have to make a test using your Read/Write utility after, for example, a full day of writing a new program or anything. Further, if you are logged in legitimately, and have legitimate access to the Files subsystem of a host, you can create, edit, etc. any files you have access to without a test.
Read/Write, like all of the decker's other utilities, are designed with one thing in mind: pulling off operations that you're not supposed to be allowed to do, and the host is actively trying to stop you from doing. Download data, Upload data, Edit file... all of these are actions that you are performing illegally on another host, which is the only reason you need to make a test in the first place. So Read/Write is, in fact, a hacker utility, and like all other hacker utilities are fairly specialized in its purpose and market, and thus most likely expensive.
(Edit): Wow, I knew I was a slow typist, but sheesh.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 6 2004, 01:10 AM
Find me a quote that says that all Utilities are for illegal users only. Then try to explain to me the point of having legal Cyberterminals with MPCPs over 1.
There are illegal Utilities. Just like there are illegal Cyberterminals. That doesn't make all Utilities or all Cyberterminals illegal anymore than riggers or the occasional illegal accessory make all vehicles or vehicle accessories illegal.
Operational Utilities like Read/Write allow you to perform standard operations more effectively. That's all. It's what you do with them that makes the action(s) illegal, not the ability to do so.
To say otherwise is to say that, for example, Adobe Acrobat is an illegal utility because it allows you to edit and manipulate copyrighted PDF files. PGP must be a tragically illegal bit of software because it allows you to both Encrypt AND Decrypt files more effectively. The horror.
You guys seem to be the ones with the preconceived notions here.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 6 2004, 01:20 AM
| QUOTE (Matrix p38) |
| Automatic System Tests: Having the passcode for an account allows the user to automatically succeed in their Access Test to logon to the system. Depending on the privileges assigned to the account, the user may also be able to perform other operations without having to make System Tests. For these automatic System Tests, the user does not need to roll any dice, nor does the system make a Security Test against the user to increase the Security Tally. |
Given that the only given use for utilities is to reduce the TNs on System Tests, this clearly outlines their uselessness to any but a system administrator, security decker, or illegal decker.
Your point with Encryption is harder to challenge. Decryption, however, is a method of cracking Encryption that is better than brute-force but does not involve having the proper keys; as such, it is not comparable to a legitimate user using PGP (which just provides the encryption, it doesn't make it easier. Easier encryption requires specialized hardware or better processors). Acrobat allows me to edit a copy that I have Write permissions to, but still does not allow me to alter the Read-Only version on your server.
~J
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 6 2004, 01:24 AM
Well fine, try this on for size.
Matrix p. 68: "Utilities are the lifeblood of deckers, and are quite useful to non-decker users as well."
Note the use of "non-decker." While the game revolves around deckers, that doesn't make everything a decker uses illegal or dedicated solely to their existance.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 6 2004, 01:28 AM
I can't imagine how, but I can't argue with the existence of the quote. Point that utilities may have non-security/illegal uses conceded, I'll have to think about the cost issue again.
~J
Posted by: ES_Riddle Dec 6 2004, 01:35 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Operational Utilities like Read/Write allow you to perform standard operations more effectively. That's all. It's what you do with them that makes the action(s) illegal, not the ability to do so. |
| QUOTE (pg. 206 SR3) |
Files Rating Deckers must make a Success Contest against the Files Ratings whenever they attempt to illegally read or write datafiles in a system. |
The emphasis is added. For read/write you don't need it if you are authorized to create or edit a file on the system. You only need to make a contest if you are trying to get information or put in information that you shouldn't be getting or writing.
I never meant that the program is an illegal program in a law sense. It performs an illegal operation, which is something that Microsoft Office will not let you do. And if MS Office Pro is $500 (1000¥ or thereabouts, IMO), then you can expect to pay many times that price for a professional hacking tool.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Dec 6 2004, 01:35 AM
*baleeted*
eh, nevermind.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 6 2004, 01:39 AM
You download the file. Edit it. Upload it back. Or just skip the transfer altogether and edit it directly. Just like when you try to edit any file on another system.
It's like the difference between using Notepad and a powerful WYSIWYG Web Editor (or any other program that has special features to make life easier on you) to create a web page. You can do the job with both, but you're going to be faster and more effective with the latter in that it helps you save time and use shortcuts to assist in the creation or editing of the file.
Notepad would be a Rating 1 utility. The WYSIWYG editor would be a significantly higher rated one (depending on the program). COPY CON in DOS or its equivalence would be you doing it with no utility whatsoever.
Several Utilities simply make actions EASIER. It's what you *DO* with them that makes something illegal. I don't know why you guys are having trouble wrapping your mind around that. There are illegal utilities (such as Black Hammer), sure, but that doesn't make all of them illegal anymore than the existance of a Morphing License Plate makes Improved Suspension illegal.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 6 2004, 01:44 AM
But they for the most part (especially Read/Write!) specifically make actions that the server forbids you from performing easier.
~J
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 6 2004, 01:50 AM
The quote you referred to does. The simple existance of Cyberterminals are meaningless if you're not going to bother with utilities. But whatever. You're running on your own preconceived notions with nothing to back you up in the rules. These utilities are listed, and have rules dedicated to, deckers. So, naturally, they must be decker-only regardless of how idiotic that would be for corporations to mass produce utilities just for all those lovely deckers to buy and use against their facilities.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 6 2004, 01:53 AM
Well, I think a big part of the argument for the prices of such utilities would be that they aren't mass-produced.
~J
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 6 2004, 01:55 AM
An Availability of 4 strongly suggests otherwise. Your average person will almost always be able to score a copy of a high-end version just by looking around for one. Lower rating versions (1-3) are even easier to find.
Posted by: Cray74 Dec 6 2004, 02:01 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Read/Write is not "special hacking software," just like most Operational Utilities (such as Analyze or Browse). It simply makes it easier for a user to transfer, create, or edit files. It's essentially a word processor/simple media editor/upload-download utility. |
What you describe is an Application, not a Utility. See pg94, Matrix. Word processors, video editors, and spreadsheets fall under the Application classification.
Read/Write is a decking Utility. It's a cut above Applications and gives modifiers to decking rolls. That ain't simple word processing.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 6 2004, 02:04 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Matrix p. 68: "Utilities are the lifeblood of deckers, and are quite useful to non-decker users as well." |
Good luck to any of you suckers who want to compress your data into a Zip file. Only deckers, apparently, have access to such highly illegal software as Compressor. Wanna protect your system from unauthorized access? Sorry, chump, you can't use the highly illegal decker-only Guardian utility, either. etc.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Dec 6 2004, 02:07 AM
Again, Dr F, you are wrong in your interpretation of availability. Availability does not represent how much of an item there exists, but, rather, how easy it is to to convince someone who has access to that item to get one for you.
The sorts of people from whom you could buy utilities would, presumably, have access to resources like hacker house or similar sites, where you simply upload X and download a copy of the utility. Thats why the Availability is low in this case - not because the corps mass market the programs and its easy for a box of Read/Write chips to "fall off the back of a truck," but, rather, because its a relatively simple process, so it doesnt take much convincing to get someone to do it for you, as long as you have the money.
Your average person does not know someone (or, at least, is not aware that he knows someone) with access to those sorts of resources, and, thus, wont be able to acquire them as easily as you claim.
Posted by: Cray74 Dec 6 2004, 02:09 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Good luck to any of you suckers who want to compress your data into a Zip file. Only deckers, apparently, have access to such highly illegal software as Compress. |
I didn't say all utilities were illegal or rare. I said I wasn't surprised that read/write was expensive. After all, there's applications for those users who want word processors and spreadsheets and other legal data editors. Whatever R/W is, it's something above and beyond the normal editing application.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 6 2004, 02:13 AM
Compressor 6 costs exactly the same amount. The only difference between that and Compressor 1 is that it lets you zip up larger files; like a higher-rated Application such as a game.
But sure, I'll admit that saying that Read/Write isn't necessary a word processor. It's probably closer to a Hex Editor or the like, really, with tons of bells and whistles along the same lines as a top quality word processer at the higher ratings. That still doesn't make it illegal or limited solely to hackers.
Posted by: ES_Riddle Dec 6 2004, 02:14 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| The quote you referred to does. The simple existance of Cyberterminals are meaningless if you're not going to bother with utilities. But whatever. You're running on your own preconceived notions with nothing to back you up in the rules. These utilities are listed, and have rules dedicated to, deckers. So, naturally, they must be decker-only regardless of how idiotic that would be for corporations to mass produce utilities just for all those lovely deckers to buy and use against their facilities. |
Why are cyberterminals meaningless if you're not going to have utilities? You can still do any of those operations without a utility, it is just a lot harder. Of course they have no bearing on authorized users. Only the slave rating is somewhat ambiguous about whether an authorized user even needs to make a contest. I would hardly call this nothing backing me up in the rules.
All these are from page 206, SR3.
- To access a grid/host, an unauthorized user…
Control Rating measures a system's resistance to unauthorized administrative commands.
Index Rating measures a system's resistance to unauthorized searches.
…whenever they attempt to illegaly read or write datafiles in a system.
Posted by: Cray74 Dec 6 2004, 02:15 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| That still doesn't make it illegal or limited solely to hackers. |
No, that doesn't necessarily make it illegal or solely limited to hackers.
But the price suggests it isn't an everyday word processor, does it?
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 6 2004, 02:18 AM
You mean like the price for WinZIP's equivalence? That's 1,800 nuyen for the priviledge to compress a Rating 3 datasoft, or 14,400 nuyen if you want to zip up a Rating 6 datasoft. Or anything else that's Rating 3/6 respectively.
Posted by: Cray74 Dec 6 2004, 02:23 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| You mean like the price for WinZIP's equivalence? That's 1,800 nuyen for the priviledge to compress a Rating 3 datasoft, or 14,400 nuyen if you want to zip up a Rating 6 datasoft. Or anything else that's Rating 3/6 respectively. |
Analogy doesn't work. Compress only has the bizarrely priced utility. Besides Read/Write, there's rating 1, complexity 1 word processors covered under Applications.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 6 2004, 02:34 AM
Explain to me why that analogy doesn't work (which I chose simply because it was the easiest one I could find to compare to modern software).
Rationalize to me how a piece of software -- with your only other available option being a piece of cyberware -- that compresses any amount of data (not just utilities) up to rating 3 should cost 1,800 nuyen. Or how it's illegal, or limited only to deckers, or any of the other hubabaloo that's been mentioned in this thread.
All Utilities are not illegal or decker-only. The way one uses them is, and even then there are some that simply aren't even then (hence Compressor).
Want another example? If you want a good connection via a cellular link, you have to pay out the ass, too, because that requires a Utility. Ditto for all the other links.
Hell. According to some people here, system operations are illegal because that's the only way most Operational Utilities are illegal. That's *all* most of them do -- aid you in performing system operations.
Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 6 2004, 03:01 AM
Aid you in performing them when the system doesn't want you to. When the system allows you to, no rolls or utilities are needed.
Though I do have to note that I have no good answer to Compressor either. *Digs out the books again*
~J
Posted by: Jason Farlander Dec 6 2004, 03:03 AM
*shrugs* Perhaps the file formats used in the 2060's are very, very difficult to compress.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 6 2004, 03:13 AM
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Aid you in performing them when the system doesn't want you to. When the system allows you to, no rolls or utilities are needed. |
You can edit files just fine, so why do you need a word processor Application? The rules and fluff text all revolve around deckers. The designers have been consistently clueless when it comes to writing them on just about every level. This just happens to be one of those areas.
And while no tests may be required, you'll still likely want to make one if you want to do it quickly.
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Dec 6 2004, 04:17 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) | ||
You can edit files just fine, so why do you need a word processor Application? The rules and fluff text all revolve around deckers. The designers have been consistently clueless when it comes to writing them on just about every level. This just happens to be one of those areas. And while no tests may be required, you'll still likely want to make one if you want to do it quickly. |
This isn't a really fair argument either. How does a Read/Write utility, which from the operations it is in charge of seems to be more of a really hackish FTP program, affect how easily or quickly you manipulate files? Indeed, in the 2060s I'd expect most of the editing software like Notepad and the like to be included for free in any standard software bundle, much as it is in most computers today. The only time you'd need to buy something like a Read/Write utility is if you want to do something outside the norm, like break into and copy/overwrite someone else's files. After all, that is all the Read/Write utility does, by Canon; any other operations you associate with it are only a result of your preconceived notions (resulting IMO from a misinterpretation of flavor text; see below)
Just because you don't make a living from decking doesn't mean you wouldn't ever want to break into someone else's computer for some reason. That, IMO, is what the "non-decker users" is referring to: amateurs rather than professionals. A CD-burning program isn't only useful for people who want to make and sell illegal copies of their CD collection, you know.
| QUOTE (Jason Farlander) |
| *shrugs* Perhaps the file formats used in the 2060's are very, very difficult to compress. |
This is possibly a very good point. See, one big pradigm we're dealing with in the world of computer science today is the idea of programs as data. All programs currently in existence can be represented in the same way as the data they manipulate, giving us some powerful abilities which work well with the current binary-based computers. In the 2060s there is every possiblility that computer science has gone in the opposite direction; that now it is data that is being represented as a proceedure. Now, how is this possible, and what does it mean? As I am currently without my master's degree in 2060s computing technology I have no idea. But, it's pretty safe to say that all our current ideas of what makes sense and what does not in terms of computing have all gone out the window, and it's possible this includes the idea of compression.
Posted by: John Campbell Dec 6 2004, 04:46 AM
The rules for Compressor are totally wacked, anyway. I don't expect it to realistically reflect the differences in compressibility of different types of data, but it'd be nice if it made some small amount of sense, and I can't come up with a single rational explanation for the Rating of the compression program limiting the uncompressed size of the data you can compress. Degree of compression, sure, speed, yeah, but uncompressed size? buhhhhhh......
The only way I can think of to bring that into shouting distance of sanity is to say that the limit is just the limit on how much data it can compress in a single Complex Action, and allow it to take multiple Complex Actions to compress larger files.
Posted by: hyzmarca Dec 6 2004, 07:43 AM
Considering the cost of everything else in Shadowrun, I say it is just inflation.
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Dec 6 2004, 08:05 AM
Except guns, some vehicles, and lower-class housing. Guns in particular are curiously cheap.
Posted by: Eyeless Blond Dec 6 2004, 08:27 AM
| QUOTE (John Campbell) |
| The rules for Compressor are totally wacked, anyway. I don't expect it to realistically reflect the differences in compressibility of different types of data, but it'd be nice if it made some small amount of sense, and I can't come up with a single rational explanation for the Rating of the compression program limiting the uncompressed size of the data you can compress. Degree of compression, sure, speed, yeah, but uncompressed size? buhhhhhh...... The only way I can think of to bring that into shouting distance of sanity is to say that the limit is just the limit on how much data it can compress in a single Complex Action, and allow it to take multiple Complex Actions to compress larger files. |
See that's what I'm saying, that maybe it's not the system itself that's wrong, but the assumptions you are bringing into it. See, right now you're assuming that data in SR is analogous to data in the real world. Specifically, you are making the assumption that data is analytic, capable of being broken down into component parts, when in fact SR seems to be presenting data as synthetic, which is rather the opposite. Consider, for example, that datasofts have ratings, rather than a continuom of values for size. This implies a measure of quantization to data that simply does not exist in the current computer paradigm.
The unit of measure for program size--the megapulse--as well as the nature of the storage medium hints at a possible reason for this: data, as well as everything else, may well be stored as a proceedure. It makes sense, actually: it explains why data is saved as a "datasoft," implying software, as well as other things like why software makes up so large a percentage of the hardware costs. Now, why is this the case; why is everything being stored in proceedure form rather than in binary? Who knows; if we understood that our technology would jump up by 50 years.
One thing is clear though; because software is incapable of being broken down without losing the integrity of the encapsulated data, compression algorithms become much more complicated, and may well require the odd steps outlined. This technology is 60 years beyond us; who knows what it might be capable of, or *not* capable of?
Posted by: Jason Farlander Dec 6 2004, 08:34 AM
So yeah... elementals... I like them. Theyre pricey, but, aside from foci, what else are you spending your money on as a mage? Compared to expendable foci theyre an absolute *steal* Oh, and dont forget to use your karma reroll(s) when youre conjuring them, since the karma will (generally) refresh long before it becomes necessary again. The fact that you can have multiple elementals on call and that you need not worry about drain (for the most part) when summoning them makes them well worth the cost, IMO.
Posted by: Club Dec 6 2004, 08:40 AM
| QUOTE (Cray74 @ Dec 5 2004, 06:10 PM) | ||
Hey, Doc, care to guess what some new stainless bolts are going to cost when I get done designing them, if you factor in the engineering costs? And the costs for buying the specialty stainless steel and setting up the tooling for a tiny run of bolts? I can entirely believe that speciality hacking software goes for 14,400 nuyen. You're not selling a lot of copies of something that cost a lot of weeks of writing effort. |
Depends on the size of the bolt and the type of stainless, and the shape the stock comes in.
For the non-metalworker, carbide inserts (Disposable cutting tool) cost $15 Canadian OR MORE a peice. An hour's labor is $70+.
If the bolts are less than an inch, I could see up up $30 a bolt. One foot, high tolerance bolts to an odd size could be WELL over a hundred.
Posted by: Joe Outside Dec 6 2004, 08:45 AM
As another point to Doc Funk's side, it's worth nothing that utilities don't have a legality rating unless they're installed on cyberdecks, which do. At least, not according to anything I could find in SR3.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Dec 6 2004, 08:51 AM
Right, they dont have a legality rating, which means they dont have a "legal" designation either, so that observation doesnt really serve either viewpoint. If illegal, perhaps they lack a legality code because theres no way an LS officer could glance at an optical chip containing Sleaze 6 and say "oh hey, thats an illegal program!" As such, the normal game mechanic for determining if LS hassles you doesnt apply.
Edit: Dammit... here I was, trying desperately to grasp for the original topic, and I have to go ahead and contribute to the massive derailing of that topic *again.* Oh well...
Posted by: ES_Riddle Dec 6 2004, 10:14 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Hell. According to some people here, system operations are illegal because that's the only way most Operational Utilities are illegal. That's *all* most of them do -- aid you in performing system operations. |
System operations on a system to which you don't have authorized access are going to be illegal most of the time. The only time they wouldn't be would be if you are with the NSA or similar organization, if you are trying to counter deck against a compromised system that you've been hired to fix, or some other situation in which the legal authorization to use the system is not the same as the computer designating you as an "authorized user."
If you need to roll a system operation test, the odds are you are doing something illegal.
On another note, I do have to say that the compress function being a utility rather than an application seems pretty goofy to me, too.
And elementals are a pretty good investment if you can get your team to agree that they each get a cut of the pay and that you'll send it to them
Posted by: Crusher Bob Dec 6 2004, 11:32 AM
There's nothing 'inherently' illegal about breaking into computer systems, you can set your own computer system up and then attempt to break into it all day. You will need to be careful about your legal terms of use (such as the clauses about reverse engineering), but if you avoid stuff like that, it's legal.
Niolations of the wiretap act, wire fraud, theft, etc are what you are going to be charged with when breaking into other people's computers.
While some software is 'monitored' by law enforcement, it's quite often legal, in and of itself.
Posted by: apple Dec 6 2004, 11:48 AM
You forget that you need several programs for data/information-research (using the rules in Matrix 3) => research is a legal application and needs programs with high rating.
And the programming rules in M3 AFAIK state that normal, yet complex programs like games, OS, office etc may have both a multiplier and a high programm rating.
In the end: this discussion is a wonderful example for the basic flaws in the SR-Matrix-system. Illegal Compressor? Pardon me? Illegal Black Hammer? Sure.
SYL
Posted by: mintcar Dec 6 2004, 01:13 PM
I can only say that for me, the utilities must be highly sophisticated hacking programs for it to make sense. Deckers pay anything for utilities because they are written by better deckers and allow them to do more wiz stuff when decking. No company would ever sell a utility that could help deckers get into their systems. They would develop it for their security deckers, and it might spread illigaly from there. Or you could buy it legaly at the same outrageous prices if you have a company of your own. SOTA software aimed at a corporate market is very highly priced in reality. Anyway, the pirate community has obviously become less anti-capitalistic in the shadowrun era. A decker that gets a hold of a hot utility wont spread it around for nothing. Maybe that´s the way it is today as well, if you look at the top notch hackers, I dunno.
Posted by: Dissonance Dec 6 2004, 04:14 PM
Besides, we all know that no company would http://store.adobe.com/store/products/master.jhtml;storesessionid=2KTA0NIYXBRN1QFI0IKB2R4AVDJBKIV2?id=catCreativeSuite http://reviews.cnet.com/Microsoft_Office_2003_Professional/4014-3524_7-30536957.htmlhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00008MOPV/qid=1102345380/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-8718364-5013618?v=glance&s=software would think of charging an arm and a leg for software.
O'course, I don't know what that last one does, but one has to think that considering a skill at 8 is 'world class'... Something tells me that the kinds of software bits that deckers tend to use are the kinds of code-y bits that don't really have much use in the public sector. Sure, I _could_ buy the Adobe Server Protecting Hacker Sodomizer software package for five or more digits, but it'd be overkill.
As for cyberterminals? Spoiled corp kid e-penis.
But I'm sleep-deprived, often confused, and flu-addled. I don't know a damn thing, and it shows.
EDIT: Of course, if you don't want to pay a bungload of money for software, just start with a Rating 6 programming suite with a self-programming option, a coding PC with absurd amounts of memory, about 20 doses of Long Haul, a Sleep Regulator, and program in Renraku Teng. That'll turn your 800 days of programming time into... 6.
Posted by: lorthazar Dec 6 2004, 05:59 PM
Illegal compressor? I can see it after all only an il;legal intruder would ever really need it.
As for the Read/Write program. Have you ever nopticed that any file you open gets your E fingerprints all over it. That any time you modify a file it updates and lets everyone know when you last fudged with it. Well a Read/Write program avoids all that by making it look like A Nobody ahs touched it. B. the last time it was accessed has not changed, and C. provides the proper authetication codes.
besides this one program can help a decker makes loads of nuyen in a quick hurry. Or haven't any of you thought of ordering a shipment of Ares' best then decking accounting so it is paid.
Posted by: draco aardvark Dec 6 2004, 10:04 PM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| If you like the more hand-on aproach, try channeling a high force great-form elemental while under the influance of Spirit Strength. Your stat bonuses will make the initiate adept and the wired Sammy cry. |
Also, elementals are useful because you can have a big group of them (assuming you've got the Charisma). Call them to you, astrally project and you're totally safe from bullets and explosions - just do scouting while your elementals beat guards senseless.
(*cracks whip* back on topic people!)
Posted by: hyzmarca Dec 6 2004, 11:01 PM
Spirit Strength is an Awaken Compound found in Man & Machine. It gives its user all stat boosting critter powers, including movement. For a character with 6 essence this means +6 to all primary stats, +3d6 to inititive and possibly +12 to reaction depending on how the GM applies the bonuses. Combine this with the bonuses from channeling a force 6 great-form and the mage is pretty much invincible for a short time.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 7 2004, 12:16 AM
But disregard the consequences of its use. Most people who recommend it would prefer you not to see that part.
Posted by: hyzmarca Dec 7 2004, 12:31 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| But disregard the consequences of its use. Most people who recommend it would prefer you not to see that part. |
The trick is timing and having a place to sleep it off. 7-12 hours of all 1s aren't that bad if you're asleep throughout that period. I lasts for at least 7 hours, provided essence of 6, and, unlike mundane drugs, it is not addictive.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Dec 7 2004, 12:33 AM
Honestly, the negative aftereffects arent *that* bad. Your physical attributes are all reduced to 1 for 6-12 hours. Ok, you go home (or to a safehouse) and sleep it off. If you dont expect to have that opportunity, then you should probably not be taking the drug. As far as I can tell the substance isnt even addictive, making it a far superior alternative to pretty much any other combat drug.
Edit: right... 7-12. Yay functionally simultaneous and nearly identical posting!
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 7 2004, 12:38 AM
It also lacks a price, Availability, legality, and every other stat other than its actual Game Effects. But whatever, do what you will in your games. If you don't mind being all but a total cripple and an easy target for up to twelve hours, that's your perogative.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Dec 7 2004, 12:50 AM
Oh, of course its not as if it would be an easy thing to acquire - getting even a single dose would take a good deal of IC research and RP. Its not illegal for the same reasons that a lot of modern, 'shady' substances aren't technically illegal - theyre not enough of a problem or sufficiently common to warrant legislation. And Dr. F. is right, if you're in a situation where 7 hours wont be enough to get the job done and get back to a safehouse, taking the drug would be a rather poor plan.
Note, however, that a mage with several ELEMENTALS on call would remain rather far from an easy target, even as something of a cripple.
Posted by: draco aardvark Dec 7 2004, 02:54 AM
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Spirit Strength is an Awaken Compound found in Man & Machine. It gives its user all stat boosting critter powers, including movement. For a character with 6 essence this means +6 to all primary stats, +3d6 to inititive and possibly +12 to reaction depending on how the GM applies the bonuses. Combine this with the bonuses from channeling a force 6 great-form and the mage is pretty much invincible for a short time. |
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Combine this with the bonuses from channeling a force 6 great-form and the mage is pretty much invincible for a short time. |
Posted by: Jason Farlander Dec 7 2004, 03:18 AM
Channeling is a metamagic technique that appears in Target: Awakened Lands. It allows you to merge with an elemental or spirit that owes you services, adding its force to your physical attributes and granting you access to its powers (except engulf and materialization). Channeling a great form spirit or elemental grants you immunity to normal weapons. In all cases, channeling uses up all remaining services owed.
Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Dec 7 2004, 03:20 AM
Leaves you with a nasty case of Deadly drain afterwards, too. (Why does nobody every include the consequences...)
Posted by: Fortune Dec 7 2004, 03:22 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Why does nobody every include the consequences... |
Wishful thinking?
Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 7 2004, 03:23 AM
Because if people considered the consequences, there wouldn't be so many Shadowrunners
~J
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Dec 7 2004, 03:24 AM
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| (Why does nobody ever include the consequences...) |
In this case, it'd probably be because if there are still any threats immediately after the channeling ends, you'll be at 10 boxes on at least one condition monitor soon enough with or without the drain.
Posted by: Jason Farlander Dec 7 2004, 03:25 AM
*shrugs* I also didnt mention the conjuring test at (forcex2)-grade. I figured that I'd leave the mechanics of its use out of my description, and just describe what it actually does.
Posted by: hyzmarca Dec 7 2004, 07:19 AM
Hmmmm.... Is the Immunity to Normal Weapons power based on the spirit's force or the channeler's essence? I always assumed it to be the former but if it is the later the power is suffiiciently broken to make chanelling force 1 great forms a great alternative to the armor spell.....or milspec armor.....
Posted by: Jason Farlander Dec 7 2004, 07:31 AM
Spirit's Force.
Posted by: Club Dec 8 2004, 09:29 AM
If you are in the wilderness, shaman have it all over mages for combat conjuring.
The spirits of man, however, have stats so much lower than an elemental's that it becomes worthwhile to be a mage in the city if you want to crush mundanes.
Yes, elementals are expensive, but less so than a rigger's more delicate toys (MicroWalkers and miniBlimps). Both have their uses. Having an elemental on backup can be useful for a last ditch thing. Cheaper than replacing a limb or hospital time
Posted by: Mr.Cato Dec 8 2004, 12:18 PM
yeah I like elementals.
The biggest use for me and my group is, sustaining spells. (the kind that bruns a point of force pr. day)
Before a difficult run I have elementals sustain: imp. invisiblity, armor, or anything else my fellow runners would like to have. They normally pay the cost and are happy for the services.
There is offcourse the danger of having them dispelled or running into a barrier or astral security... Depends on the run.
Also usefull in the middle of a run when the team just needs to escape.
by the way... can they decide when "their" elemental drops the spell? .. I mean you can give your friends some control over the elemental (I think I remember)..
..and can they leave the range.. or can they perform it as an "remote service"?
Posted by: apple Dec 8 2004, 01:33 PM
| QUOTE (Club) |
| The spirits of man, however, have stats so much lower than an elemental's that it becomes worthwhile to be a mage in the city if you want to crush mundanes. |
Not really ... spirits of man has confusion ... the ultimate mancrusher-critterpower.
SYL
Posted by: ES_Riddle Dec 8 2004, 04:55 PM
| QUOTE (Mr.Cato) |
| by the way... can they decide when "their" elemental drops the spell? .. I mean you can give your friends some control over the elemental (I think I remember).. ..and can they leave the range.. or can they perform it as an "remote service"? |
Unless your buddy is awakened, you'll have to remain the elemental's controller for it to sustain spells. Making it do the long version of sustaining costs the rest of its services, and binding your elemental to another person costs one service. Since your mundane sammies aren't going to be casting improved aim on themselves, you'll have to keep control of it. If your buddy is a sorcerer or shaman, however, you can bind it to her (costs one service) and then she can have it sustain an appropriate spell that she casts.
Remote services can be any service the elemental would normally be able to perform, so you could easily say to it "sustain [insert spell of appropriate category] on [insert buddy's name] as a remote service." The only problem with that is that nobody controls that elemental anymore and you'll actually have to roll dice to control, kill, or banish it to make it quit sustaining the spell.
Posted by: Bigity Dec 8 2004, 05:05 PM
Hm, I thought a spirit could be told to "obey" other PCs, performing services through voice commands. An elemental sustaining a spell has to be within visual range anyway, correct?
So the runner could just say, "Knock it off", and it's done. I doubt any spirit, who generally just want to return to the metaplanes, would sit there and refuse to stop performing a service.
Posted by: ES_Riddle Dec 8 2004, 06:51 PM
| QUOTE (Bigity) |
| Hm, I thought a spirit could be told to "obey" other PCs, performing services through voice commands. An elemental sustaining a spell has to be within visual range anyway, correct? So the runner could just say, "Knock it off", and it's done. I doubt any spirit, who generally just want to return to the metaplanes, would sit there and refuse to stop performing a service. |
Putting someone else in control of your elemental counts as a service. The way the "sustain a spell" service is worded suggests that only the controler can cast the spell to be sustained, and the [Force] days version of sustaining burns up any services you had remaining, so you won't be able to hand it over to someone else.
Hmm...maybe if you had 3 services you could do the sustain [force] combat turns, hand over control, and then that person could have the elemental switch over to sustain [force] days. I don't know how that works in regards to a spirit only being able to do one service at a time, though.
Posted by: nezumi Jan 19 2007, 06:50 PM
Alright, I'm going to resurrect a dead thread, since I couldn't find the answer here, but it should be here.
I'm currently run a game using *ONLY* the SR3 main manual. No MitS. A character is conjuring an elemental. I seemed to recollect that every conjuring uses up all of the supplies bought, whether successful or not. However, reading the book, it says:
| QUOTE |
| If the Conjuring Test is successful, the elemental materializes bla bla bla... If there are no successes, no elemental appears, but all materials purchased for the summoning are used up. |
p. 186
Now reading this, it makes me think that the materials are *ONLY* used up if he tries to conjure and fails. If he conjures successfully, the materials are still available for the next use (excepting, presumably, the big pile of clay or water or whatever).
Thoughts?
Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Jan 19 2007, 07:12 PM
| QUOTE (p. 186 "Summoning Elementals" Paragraph 2) |
| If the Conjuring Test is successful, the conjuring material is used up and the elemental materializes before the summoner. |
Posted by: nezumi Jan 19 2007, 07:34 PM
Mine doesn't say that. Hm... Ah, in the errata. Should have remembered to check there first. Thank you!
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