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Posted by: booklord Aug 16 2003, 03:51 PM

Thought I'd just stir up this conversation once again.....

Starting with dragons.........

sure things.....

Mountainshadow -> Dunklezahn
IceWing -> Ghostwalker
Alamaise -> Alamais
Alamaise's brother ->Lofwyr
Usun -> Sirrurg

theories......

Charcoalgrin -> Hestaby
Nightsky -> Celedwyr ( having grown more silver )
(Egg Nightsky gave to Earthroot [ Who was an Eastern dragon]) -> Masaru

What do you think?
Also does anybody feel up to doing immortal elves?

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 16 2003, 03:59 PM

At the very least:

Caimbeul Har'lea'Quinn->Harlequin
Ehran->Ehran
Aithne Oakforest->Aithne Oakforest
Aina->Aina Dupree
Queen Alachia->Alachia (Sosan Nearain?)

Other Elven Queen->Jenna Ni'Fairra(?)
Leonardus->Leonardo(?)

The Others havenae been mentioned by name, and there's still some confusion to the matter and exact identities.

Posted by: Lilt Aug 16 2003, 04:56 PM

Mentioned in the unpublished earthdawn dragons book; I'm guessing Luung is now Lung (wild projection on my part).

Also was in not strongly suggested in Dot6W that the eggs of the sea dragon were given to Hestaby?

[edit]OK. I'm assuming on that last part that the egg given was one of the sea-dragon's clutch...[/edit]

Posted by: Connor Aug 16 2003, 04:57 PM

In Dot6W, Masaru is clearly labeled as the youngest of the Great's, so I doubt he was one of the greats from back in the Earthdawn days. That or he attained Geat status just before napping.

Posted by: booklord Aug 16 2003, 05:22 PM

Posted by: Connor Aug 16 2003, 05:26 PM

booklord, spelling it out like that it's pretty hard to argue with you about it. I think I'll have to agree with that theory on Masaru now.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 16 2003, 05:27 PM

I wonder if now we be a good time to re-introduce the Alamaise COnspiracy?

Posted by: Connor Aug 16 2003, 09:02 PM

It will have to be introduced on the new boards at some point, right? Might as well take advantage of the opportunity now.

Posted by: Talondel Aug 16 2003, 09:26 PM

Posted by: The_Sarge Aug 16 2003, 09:27 PM

Cheapskate Tir sarariman!

Posted by: Userlimit Aug 16 2003, 10:34 PM

Posted by: Solkari Aug 16 2003, 10:53 PM

IIRC, Jenna Ni'Fairra is Alachia's daughter, so of course there would be some resemblance. Alachia's pretty high up in the government of Tir na Nog, probably trying to take the throne. Ni'Fairra is a Prince in Tir Tairngire. Looking back thought SoNA, it seems possible that Sosan is Alachia, but I didn't think Alachia cared too much about Tairngire.

[edit] Oh yeah, forgot one thing, I'm pretty sure that Alachia is the Blood Queen, which is why she cares more about Na Nog than Tairngire.

Posted by: Userlimit Aug 16 2003, 11:08 PM

I need to learn not to contest ancient history, heh.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 16 2003, 11:16 PM

Alachia and Jenna look very much alike, except for coloring (according to the Caroline Spector novel). Alachia we know was a Queen (and Blood Queen) of Wyrm Wood/Blood Wood at least once. It is not impossible that Jenna could have been a Queen or might be a Blood Queen.

Posted by: Dog Aug 17 2003, 05:57 AM

Hey, can anyone point me to a site where I can glean more background on ED? I have no intention of playing the game, but I'd like to use the references to the fourth world.

Posted by: Talondel Aug 17 2003, 12:37 PM

Y'know, there's nothing [I]wrong[I] with Earthdawn itself. Rules-wise and system-wise, I actually like it better than Shadowrun for ease of play, and better than D&D for a fantasy game.

It's good stuff, and good for a lot more than just the setting tie-ins.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 17 2003, 03:31 PM

Dog, look for something with the Dragon.pdf That should dae ye for starters.

Posted by: SCLariat Aug 17 2003, 11:17 PM

Alachia has nothing to do with Tir Na Nog, but everything to do with Tir Tairngire. Tir Na Nog is the ancient elf kingdom of Shoshara who rejected Alachia's decision to construct a wooden kaer before the Scourge the proceeded the Fourth World. For those without a Earthdawn background, magic is cyclical. When the magic rises to the right amount, creatures called "The Horrors" swarm through and reak havoc. (If you read the "Heart of Heroes" series of SR novels, that's what the hubbub was all about.) In times past, metahumanity has sought the protection of magical fortresses called kaers in order to survive. The kaers themselves are not fullproof, but they represent the best opportunity to survive.

The Therans (the Atlanteans) figured out a way to make cares involved a specific set of enchantments that was adopted by most of the known world except for the High Queen of the Elves, Alachia. Alachia, in an act of paramount folly, rejected the Theran formulas and elected to construct a kaer consisting of the wood of the Wyrm Wood, a magically enhanced forrest first created by Alamais, the great dragon. Alachia also commanded all other elves to reject the Theran kaers and follow her example. All of the other elven kingdoms, led by Shoshara (Harlequin's home), rejected Alachia's plan, thereby destroying Alachia's power as High Queen. Midway during the Scourge, the wooden kaer began to fail. In order to save themselves, Alachia and her followers cast a ritual spell which warps the Wyrm Wood into the Blood Wood and every elf received flesh thorns, similiar to the thorns on roses. Many of the Blood Wood elves died during the rituals, and the survivors suffer constant and intense agony. The Horrors, unable to inflict any more suffering and agony then elves have inflicted upon themselves, leave the survivors alone. That is why Aithne Oakforest reacts the way he does to the sight of rose bushes. The elves behind TT are the survivors of the Blood Wood; the elves of TNN are the elves who rejected Alachia's plan.

As you can see, this is just one part of the overall story of Earthdawn. While the games system can be a bit clumsy, Living Room Games has done a good job of speeding things up. The ED/SR cross over is a good way to do "epic" shadowrun. I've run one campaign in the past with a heavy ED/SR cross over, and I've just started another. To me, its the ED/SR crossover which makes SR different from the other games in the same genre (Cyberpunk, etc.).

I find Earthdawn to be a lot of fun, moreso than D&D. In D&D, its all about stuff and feats. For the most part, the fighter types tend to me superflous after the wizards and clerics reach 11th level or so. However, Earthdawn does not suffer from these problems. For example, my Earthdawn character (that I've been playing almost weekly for the better part of four years) is still using the same weapon in which he started the game with.

You can find some of used Earthdawn books on places like eBay.com . I've also found them in the stack of stuff gaming stores are usually happy to get rid off at their stores/cons. They're usually pretty cheap to buy, but I find them to be a huge help.

Posted by: Sepherim Aug 17 2003, 11:33 PM

Posted by: Reth Aug 18 2003, 12:13 AM

Concerning TT and TNN, i'm not sure it is so cut and dried as to say, that the elves that formed TT are the survivors of Blood Wood, while the elves that formed TNN are the elves that rejected Alachias plan. Clearly Alachia, Jenna Ni'Fairra and Aithne Oakforest can be placed in Blood Wood, but Ehran, Laverty and Surehand cannot, actually as far as i understand it Ehran is from Sereatha like Harley. As far as we have been told in sourcebooks and novels TT was the brainchild of the four male IE's with Ehran actually doing most of the work, thus only one of the "founders" of TT has a clear relation to Blood Wood. How Alachia and Jenna managed to worm onto the council of princes is something we have not been told. As regards TNN then culturally speaking TNN is Blood Wood, with the paths, the seelie court and the elven queen or rather TNN is Wyrm Wood before it became Blood Wood. Now it is clearly indicated in several sources that many elves were disgusted with what Alachia made Wyrm Wood into, therefore it would make sense to assume that TNN is the recreation of Wyrm Wood, as it was supposed to have been. This however indicates that TNN was formed by at least some suvivors of Blood Wood and this time they made sure that Alachia did not get the throne, even though she has managed to worm herself into Lady Brane Deighs favor. It seems like that Alachia in collusion with her darling daughter is working both sides of the pond, maybe in a long sighted bid to reestablish the authority of the elven queen in all elven lands and then swoop in and take the throne again. All in all IMO the relationship between TT and Blood Wood is quite insubstantial and only survivors of Blood Wood have found a place there simply because they are not wanted in TNN ( Oakforest is problaly tarnished since he was the queens man or else he just did'nt want any part of a new Wyrm Wood, he certainly does'nt seem to take kindly to being reminded of the things he has lost ). Galadriel with an evil twist BRRrr.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 18 2003, 02:03 AM

Yeah, time to dig out the Alamaise Conspiracy. If only to givee a different interpretation to SCLariat. Unfortunately, I've yet to take Dragons of the Sixth World intoa ccount...

Posted by: Dr Komuso Aug 18 2003, 02:22 AM

If I remember my Earthdawn history right (And maybe I don't ), wasn't it the dwarves who built/designed the kaers? Even if so, I'm fairly sure there's no mention of this in any Shadowrun product whatsoever, so maybe there's no relation.

Actually, is there any mention at ALL of what other races were doing during those times in any SR products? Honestly, SR's elfocentric histories always bugged me, and though the current developers seem to be moving away from this somewhat it's still jams in ones craw. While the idea of certain power hungry elves mixing myth and history to create an illusion of age to their culture is an interesting one, I'd really like to see some indication of other races rising to take back some of their ancient heritage.

Or maybe I'm just crazy.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 18 2003, 02:46 AM

More like dracocentric history, but the thing is that you can't reclaim a heritage you don't know exists.

That said, there's the Troll Kingdom of the Black Forest, a couple of dwarven settlements, the Ork Underground in Seattle, the ancient Ork language may start gaining popularity since Dunkie gave out a sample in his Will, and I'm sure there's more.

The Kaers were of Theran design.

Posted by: phelious fogg Aug 18 2003, 02:54 AM

So who are the Therans in ralation to shadowrun?
I wonder if Obsidimen are ever going to awaken from there rocks?
Anyways food for thought

Posted by: Reth Aug 18 2003, 03:05 AM

Perhaps it will eventually be the Atlantean Foundation that will establish the new Thera, perhaps Sheila Blatavska is actually one of the original "usurpers"

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 18 2003, 03:19 AM

I keep getting the impression that the Atlantean FOundation is, to an extant, not fully up to speed on what went down in the last age.

The final remnant of the Therans in the 6th World is down in Azania, among the Heavenherds with their College and Governor. probably. loci are stuill an unknown factor.

Posted by: booklord Aug 18 2003, 03:29 AM

Posted by: Cain Aug 18 2003, 07:26 AM

According to Do6W, the Great Dragon status is more than just age or political respect; it appears to be a distinct part of their lifecycle. It apparently comes after they've passed the mating ages, although apparently they can still mate. There are apparently distinct changes that an adult dragon undergoes, in changing into a Great. I don't have my book right on hand, though, so I couldn't tell you more than that.

Posted by: sapphire_wyvern Aug 18 2003, 09:52 AM

DotSW says that the transformation to Great Dragon is kinda like a metamorphosis, which is powered by the dragon's own magical abilities. This is why all Great Dragons, without exception, are powerful magic users - it's required to actually enter the metamorphosis.

Ryumyo, apparently, is trying for the next step up from Great, whatever that might be...

Posted by: Synner Aug 18 2003, 10:20 AM

He's not the only one either.

Posted by: Reth Aug 18 2003, 12:05 PM

Well i was only half serious about the Atlanteans Ancient, but there are some similarities between them and the group led by Messias, that set out to study powerfull relics of a past age ( Books of Harrowing ). But yes the Azanians is a good bet, especially given their relationship with Mujaji.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 18 2003, 01:40 PM

No offense Reth, but it's pretty much damn canon if you accept the little transcripted conversation in the back of the Cybertechnology book.

Posted by: Reth Aug 18 2003, 01:49 PM

Alas there are many of the old books that i don't have, want them, can't find them even though i do find some once in a while. Which of the things are you refering to, the Atlanteans or the Azanians, and mind you i agree with your view on the Azanians, i'm just not sure the Atlanteans are completely clueless given their appaerance in Threats.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 18 2003, 01:54 PM

Let's Seperate FOr a Moment:

1)The Atlantean FOundation-at once exceedingly informed yet digging in the weirdest damn places. Most likely not the descendents of Thera/Atlantis

2)Ale'i Menatis-and other culty Atlantis-reborn groups. Probably not related in any way to Thera/Atlantis.

3)The Heavenherds-in Azania, who are pretty much the only official Therans remaining.

Now, given that, can ye specify what you mean by "Atlanteans"?

Posted by: Reth Aug 18 2003, 02:03 PM

Atlantean Foundation and its mysterious leader Sheila Blatavska.

But you've pretty much answered already, it was the Azanians, and as i said i agree that they are the only ones who can be directly linked to Thera, i was just speculating out loud about AF.

While we are at it, i recall somebody someplace, don't remember where comparing TT to Thera, what do you think of that?

Personally i would compare TT more to Shosara, but i could be wrong.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 18 2003, 02:13 PM

I think Tir Tairngire is the result of Icewing and Mountainshadow relocating to the North American continent; it's apparent that a certain powerful faction wants to stay seperate from the Elven Court (perhaps remembering Alachia's influence), but individuals keep contact with parts of Tir na nOg (and not necessairally for espionage).

Tir na nOg holds ALachia and the Elven Court, plus what appear to be a number of Elven ruins and possibly a Locus. I think it might be the "Western Kingdoms" that Alachia originally came from as opposed to Shosara inheriting the Court. Whatever it's derivation, Tir na nOg has definately set itself against the Dragons and Tir Tairngire.

I expound further on this in my Alamaise Conspiracy, but I really need to uipdate it to take Dragons of the SIxth World intoa ccount first.

Posted by: Reth Aug 18 2003, 02:27 PM

Yes that move of focus from eastern Europe to nothwestern America is somewhat baffling, but it could be as simple as that FASA just wanted some dragons and elves in America from the start, then comes Earthdawn which is situated in eastern Europe, what happens in between? We may never know, but maybe Dunkie and GW just spread out so to speak, i mean we know from the ED dragons sourcebook that GD's take the future very serious, maybe they thought that spreading out insured a greater chance of more of them making it through the downcycle. As far as the elves go, then you're problaly right in assuming, they wanted to put some distance between them and Alachia, didn't really work though.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 18 2003, 03:49 PM

Well, it may have something to do with Icewing (read: GW) being in charge of IE/Dragon interaction (bows to Subrosa); and it certainly explains the Celtic-Salish style of Tir Tairngire architecture.

Posted by: Reth Aug 18 2003, 03:58 PM

How would Icewings former status have anything to do with the move to North America? This Liason status of his is that not al the way back in the second world?

BTW Ancient do you know which of the great dragons hail from back in the 2nd world?

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 18 2003, 04:09 PM

Dragons think long term. If anything went down in Blood Wood (like, say, it imploded) Icewing may just have taken it upon himself to relocate the troublemakers somewhere else. Maybe. Hard to say.

I think it all comes down to Denver.

Posted by: Reth Aug 18 2003, 04:13 PM

And why would the elves have obeyed him and moved? They are exactly big on obeying the dragons and there are no reasons they should.

Btw i saw in one of the old post that you mentioned that you were increasingly distrustful og GW, for what reason?

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 18 2003, 04:19 PM

There was a big confrontation at some point in the 4th world, with most of the IE's on one side and all the Great Dragons on the other. I assume that the elves were given a choice: go with chaperones or go in an urn.

I did? I'd have to look back at the context of what I said. Give me a pointer?

Posted by: Reth Aug 18 2003, 04:34 PM

Do you have the scan on that confrontation, what it was about and so on?

The reference to GW is in the Alamaise conspiracy theory 2.0. posted 16/2-03.

you might be right the reason for the relocation to America, i just have a problem with the idea of GD's ORDERING IE's around, clearly some of the IE's would be able to take on a GD in their own right, you just don't order such people around, that has a tendency of being hazardous to your health.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 18 2003, 05:07 PM

An individual IE could conceivably be a match for a Great Dragon. Certainly Alamaise' daughter managed to wound him deeply. But in sheer firepower (pun intended) I think there are far more Great Dragons than IE's...and Aina was on the side of the Great Dragons.

Ah, I see. I thought Icewing, in his role as liason 'tween IEs and GD, might have led the elves that would become the Heavenherds to the Books of Harrow, or might in fact be responsible for the creation of IE's in the first place.

Posted by: booklord Aug 18 2003, 05:13 PM

The IE's of Tir Tairngire probably just put themselve's in a position to benefit from local political events. Both Azania and Tir Na Nog had ?naturally? high levels of elves to draw from to create their little nations. But the the founders of Tir Tairngire didn't have that. They had to set up a situation where a large number of metahumans (particularly elves) would congregate in a single area. ( which they did by tricking the the S-S-C into putting out a all metahumans welcome sign )

Would the founders of Tir Tairngire have preferred someplace in Europe? Possibly. But there wasn't any real oppotunities there. Besides the elves seem to like the Redwood forest and Crater lake.

As for Alachia, it seems to me from the Caroline Specter book and the Shadows of North America that both she and her daughter are princes of Tir Tairngire. Also it appears she holds a position of some influence in Tir Na Nog. (Though I don't think she's in charge. Possibly they don't trust her that much anymore.) I haven't a clue if she's in charge of the Atlantean Foundation. I kind of doubt it. The Crusaders seem to multi-racial to be pawns of a woman who in all likelyhood is a racist as her daughter.

In a final comment about why IEs seem to bow to the wishes of dragons. I'd say it has more to do with the dragons having an early advantage at the beginning of the sixth age while magic is still on the weaker side. When push comes to shove dragons seem to be able to throw their weight around. Lofwyr's defeat of Leonardo.....Sirrurg's destruction of that Euro flight ( no magician born in the sixth age should even have been able to slow that dragon down ).....Hetsaby's defeat of Tir Tairngire's army. In time the IEs may amass enough power to face down the dragons. But for right now? Best to bide their time, and let the overgrown lizards have their way.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 18 2003, 05:19 PM

Of course, the question remains as to why GW and Dunkie would go over to America; and why there's a higher elf population in North America...and of course, there IS Crater Lake.

Posted by: Reth Aug 18 2003, 05:28 PM

Why do you think there are more GD's than IE's, because we know more names? In Threats (p.58 ) it says " less than 25 immortal elves are known to exist....", that can ofcourse be anywhere between 1 and 24 then, but this is ofcourse only those who are known. We have the named ones in TT, Urdli in Australia, but there must be some in TNN and Azania. All in all i assume there are at least as many as there are GD's if not more, but as you said earlier in this post SR is very Dracocentric, and the game developers seem to have developed a: NOT so subtle BIAS against elves.

Posted by: booklord Aug 18 2003, 05:34 PM

Remember there's more than 2000 years of unrecorded history in the fourth age after the events listed in "Barsaive at War". At any point during this, A great dragon or immortal elf could have said "To heck with this place, I'm moving".

For that matter Barsaive was supposedly located somewhere around the Ukraine right? I find it curious that NO great dragons or IE's seem to call that area home. Closest greats are in Germany, England, and the Middle East. Even the Elven court seems to have moved off to an island.

Perhaps something really nasty happened involving say the outcast great dragon Denairastas and his clan of "immortal" humans that really lowered property values in and around Barsaive in a hurry.

Posted by: Nath Aug 18 2003, 05:39 PM

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 18 2003, 05:46 PM

There had been something of a debate some time back over the Alachia/Sosan/Jenna question, which was never resolved to my satisfaction. Basically Sosan has the exact physical description of Alachia, but none of the personality; while Jenna has a very similar physical description, the personality, and the picture, but was known to be a distinct (and different) person in times past ... Alachia's daughter, if I mistake not.

In existing folklore, there is a wide body of literature suggesting that witch-mothers are capable of taking over the bodies of their blood-daughters or swapping them with their own.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 18 2003, 08:49 PM

The matter is confused: there were hints levelled by Lou Prosperi that Jenna may have been an Elven Queen...or Blood Queen. Alachia and Jenna look enough alike that they could probably pass for one another as necessary.

Alachia appears to be biding her power and ruling behind the scense at the moment, as a silent partner in both Tirs.

Posted by: Reth Aug 18 2003, 09:14 PM

Well Carolin Spector has a scene wherein Alachia and Jenna both appear.

As for why Sosan Nerain doesn't appear to have Alachias personality, thats problaly because she isn't described much in the way of personality, since she is an unknown factor publicly, and Jenna does not have the experience/power or guts to dress down Surehand in front of the others.

Posted by: SCLariat Aug 19 2003, 02:29 AM

I think you can explain the TT/Wyrm Wood connection by simply looking at the presence of Lofwyr as a Prince. If the elves of TT wanted to discourage Alamais's involvement in their affairs, who better to pick than Alamais's own brother? Ehran the Scribe is obliquely mentioned in the ED Blood Wood sourcebook (and pictured in the elven section of the Denizens of Earthdawn book), as are several of the other TT elves. As Ancient History says, we also have 2000 years of unrecorded history in between the times. Any connection between Alachia and TNN is attempt for Alachia is reestablish her power in another kingdom, although it sounds like there's a couple of novels which its sounds like I need to re-read or read for the first time. If you can provide specific novels or sourcebooks, I'm certainly open to changing my mind.

IMHO, I've always thought that the Atlantean Foundation's real goal had nothing to due with the reestablishment of Theran Empire...in fact it was the direct opposite. This would explain why persons like Dunkelzahn and TT, who were certainly no fans of There, would support the AF, even marginally. In fact, I believe the AF is specifically searching for one set of items, the pillars of orichalcum the Therans used to artificially manipulate the cycle of Magic, for their own purposes. (Its in the Theran sourcebook...and a super epic plot hook).

As to the transition from Europe to North America, I've had a theory (never borne out in a SR or ED book mind you) that there was an age of Magic between the two. Not necessarily a "full" age like ED, but a mini age about the time of King Arthur & the middle ages. Its possible, with the ebbs and flows of magic, that several of these "bubbles" could have existed long enough for the dragons to move to North America. Maybe Thera won the war in the end and the losers fled far away. One of the things the elves of Wyrm Wood and most of the great dragons had in common was their total hatred of Thera. It is curious that none of the SR great dragons reestablished themselves in what used to be Barsaive. Its always possible there's "no answer" to it all. It sure is fun to guess, though.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 19 2003, 03:23 AM

There's been hints of a mini-Awakening during the Dark AGes, but it would have been much more localized.

I figured the reason Dunkie and Lofwyr were looking in on the Council of Princes was:

a)Dunkie might ahve assumed his brother's role upon his "death"

b)I think most of the IE's in TT are actually Lofwyr's kids, or descendents.

Consider that Harlequin and Ehran come from Serethea, City of SPires, to the North and West of Blood Wood; and Shosara is to the North of Blood Wood, and Alachia and Aithne came from the "Western Kingdoms," and Lofwyr lived to the North and West of Barsaive, Alamaise fleeing him to what would be the Wyrm Wood.

'Course, I could be wrong. The Western Kingdoms could also be what becomes Tir na nOg. But I rather think that Tir na nOg was founded after the Northern Isles sank (vanished, what have you) and/or Blood Wood imploded.

Posted by: Reth Aug 19 2003, 01:50 PM

If you're right about the GD's having overseers so to speak on the council of princes Ancient, then i would say that it problaly doesn't have anything to do with the family relations between the GD's and IE's. Consider this, while Dunkie is the Loremaster, he clearly thinks of Lofwyr as his second in command so to speak, since Dunkie makes sure Lofwyr becomes Loremaster after his death, now that Lofwyr is loremaster, he leaves the council and the one who in Lofwyrs eyes must be considered second in command, given the results of SOThF must be Hestaby, as for the dust up with the Oakforests, well maybe Lofwyr decided to even a few scores before he left the council, also this is the only way Harleys comment about Hestaby drawing the short straw in this deal makes sense.

Posted by: booklord Aug 19 2003, 02:25 PM

I think Harlequinn was merely commenting on how being a Tir prince is a job filled with so many annoyances, frustrations and colleagues with grating personalities that many people might balk at the prospect of being one. To top it off the other princes (lot of finger pointing at Surehand) have run the local economy into the ground and sparked a resistance movement that could topple the entire government.

Personally I think Lofwyr decided he'd rather sing a duet with Alamais on Wyrm Talk then remain a Tir prince any longer. So Lofwyr ate Glasigan ( a popular theory ) and left. Hestaby wanted the seat to protect her interests at Mount Shasta so she took it.

Lofwyr's not alone either.

Aithne Oakforest left suddenly probably over Hestaby getting a seat.
Ehran also decided he'd rather be a flunkie for the DIMR then be a Tir prince.

Posted by: Reth Aug 19 2003, 02:59 PM

As to why Ehran left, read the conversation between him and Lady of the Court in " Portfolio of a dragon "

Nobody just takes a seat on the council of princes, not even a GD.

I don't think Lofwyr ate Glasgian, that would be a serious breach of etiquette on his part, i rather think he left the arm on purpose to tell Aithne that he has his son as a hostage, so he better stop fragging with L's interest in collusion with the Nachtmeister-Graff Beloit cabal.

And personally i think the description of TT in SoNA is kind of moronic, appears like the elves doesn't have one brain between them, i mean RUN a country, no no thats too difficult for elves, and these are not even regular elves we are talking about here these are immortals, who apparently hasn't learned how to run a country during the millenia, again i say moronic. But the dragons, they can run countries, cities and corporations with NO difficulty, why??? Because they are so old and wise!!!! Oh wait isn't that also what the immortal elves are??? NOOOOO THEY ARE ELVES.

Again SR has a serious: NOT so SUBTLE BIAS against ELVES ( inferiority complex or political agenda??? Take your pick )

Fortunately every "place" book is smart enough to state that the texts in it represents POW's of their authors.

It is not that TT doesn't have problems in my book, but i rather tend to think that one of the Princes is purposely destabilizing the country as part of their own plans, i find it amazing that noone mentioned Alachia as a suspect in the " Harlequins revolution" thread.

Btw the economy is on the upswing according to SSG, so now the Rinelle has taken to blowing up tourist busses and so on, Yeah we really want to root for these people.

Hmm i think i'll go hug a tree now

Posted by: The Synthcat Aug 19 2003, 03:04 PM

My guess is that Ehran left for one of two reasons:

1-because he just realized that the plans he had for Tir Tairngire would be impeded by his fellow princes, and decided that he was going "solo"

2-like the ancients did, he wanted to create an impression of distance between himself and the tir, to better, in this case, manipulate it and pull strings discreetly.

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 19 2003, 03:23 PM

Or 3-he was offered a position (via Dunkelzahn's will) which enabled him to have continuous public contact with an admiring public. He likes the attention and continues to cultivate it, but this means he has rather less attention to give to Tir politics. Others take advantage of this, and use the Council weighted-vote set-up to oust him.

Running a country isn't nearly the same thing as having personal mastery of one's own ability and powers. Admining a board like this one is like herding cats. Running a country with a disproportionate percentage of manipulative elves can't be easier. There are times (I am certain) when those involved wonder whether it would be easier just to bluntly mind-control every person involved: at least then other people would act the way they are supposed to. Darned free will thingie

"She isn't described much in the way of personality"? Wouldn't that be much the same as saying that you can't pick up personality off printed posts?

Posted by: Reth Aug 19 2003, 03:34 PM

Or maybe he actually leaves for the reasons, he states to Lady of the Court in Portfolio of a Dragon.

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 19 2003, 03:38 PM

An IE being straightforward and honest?!!!

Posted by: booklord Aug 19 2003, 03:39 PM

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 19 2003, 05:05 PM

I'm still trying to figure out who the third Great Dragon is that founded Amazonia.

Also, everyone of us needs to utilize the spellcheck button a wee bit more.

'Tis possible that Lofwyr's duties as Loremaster may require him to forego some of his other interests...or it could be a rat leaving a sinking ship or a deal with Hestaby.

Oh, just a note: there are indications that there is more than one Loremaster, but given the Council in Wake of the Comet, I think the GD's have globalized...

Posted by: Talia Invierno Aug 19 2003, 06:15 PM

Then again, spellcheck would have helped not at all, either with Nachtmeister or with every one. It's the Internet, and (although it did take me years) I've learned to read what's being said and pay rather less attention to details of grammar and spelling and when to use two words and when the conjoined one. Learning that I discovered to be a very good thing for my nerves. (And how many of us are ESLers, after all?)

I'd say the "odd selection of IEs and a dragon" more than balance out a group of "yes-men". Nor do I particularly see differences over personal agenda as being in itself a problem. (What is it that is currently popularly advocated, after all, but "enlightened self interest"?) Find a council that agrees on everything, and I'll show you a dictatorship in disguise. Disagreement at the high levels, covert or otherwise, I see as a necessary part of a government capable of evolution. Full agreement calcifies.

Posted by: booklord Aug 19 2003, 06:56 PM

If I'm not mistaken Lugh Surehand rules Tir Tairngire and the council of princes can if they vote in a majority veto his decisions. The thing is most of the princes who is not an IE or dragon seems to be a yes-man for Lugh. It's so bad that if I remember correctly a dwarf prince that was coerced into opposing Surehand was confined for medical "treatment". Those that remain so run the gauntlet in terms of personality and agendas that I doubt they'd agree on anything. Result? Even the council of princes is nearly impotent when it comes to opposing Surehand.

This has become worse with Surehand's extreme bouts of paranoia. Isolating a country that is not self-sufficient is incredibly stupid. (I suspect the other princes forced him to open up the ports)

Posted by: sapphire_wyvern Aug 20 2003, 02:26 AM

Posted by: Reth Aug 20 2003, 02:35 AM

And just because Aina didn't know him personally it doesn't mean he isn't an immortal elf. The world is a big place after all.

Posted by: sapphire_wyvern Aug 20 2003, 02:44 AM

True, but the impression I got was that all the IEs at least knew who each other were, even if they hadn't actually met face-to-face. Sure, the world is a big place, but immortality is a long time.

I'm by no means overwhelmingly confident, but it did seem to me quite a strong implication that Lugh Surehand was born in this age.

Does anyone have any actual evidence to the contrary?

Posted by: Reth Aug 20 2003, 02:55 AM

Evidence no!! But the man deals with IE's and GD's on an equal level. Also i seem to recall some comment from Harley about the Lofwyr situation, y'know why Lugh supported Lofwyrs placement on the council, where Harley alludes to ancient rivalries and unfullfilled oaths or something in that regard. I think maybe it is in Coporate Download, though i'm not sure.

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 20 2003, 03:15 AM

The only proof we have that Lugh is an IE is that:
1) He seems down with all this next-level shit

2) He knew anchoring afore the theorums were published

3) None of the known IEs have yet killed him, and that's saying something when he forced Lofwyr onto the board against their protests.

Posted by: Reth Aug 20 2003, 03:21 AM

Also in " Worlds without end " he participates in the meeting where Aina pitches the idea, that some of the horrors are lose in the world, only the IE princes, Lofwyr and Harley are present at that meeting besides Aina and Lugh.

Posted by: NeO_ZeN Aug 25 2003, 12:37 PM

Does anyone remember the Denairastas, rulers of Iopos?

Well, a few good sources have informed me that they are part dragon, almost precursors to drakes in a sense. Are they mentioned in Shadowrun? Has their tainted blood dwindled following the fourth world or are there literally thousands of magically potent metahumans out there with a genetically enhanced grudge(unknowingly) against their former masters?

Are these the drakes now rising in the Sixth World? Is that why the dragons are falling over each other to sweep them up before they become the menace they once were?

My group has a theory (we've been playing earthdawn & shadowrun 9+ years) that TT is actually Thera, just with a lighter coat of paint...

[Edit] Or was that Aztlan...

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 25 2003, 01:25 PM

The "Aztlan is Thera" idea has been around for a long time, but aside from a complete desire to dominate, knowledge of certain ancient practices and a propensity for blood magic more powerful than anyone else has yet seen; there's no proof. That and the Heavenherds are in Azania and there was already a struggle in that area between feathered serpents over blood magic.

No one has yet seen the Denairastas, who were not drakes or even pre-drakes, but rather a line of vaugely interbred dragonkin humans. Long-lived, magically potent, but not immortal. They could still be around, but they've been very very quiet if so. WIth good reason.

Posted by: NeO_ZeN Aug 25 2003, 01:39 PM

AH>>>It's funny 'cause I read your Alamais thread straight after I posted this, realising my mistake. You're just too quick on those keys pilgrim

Posted by: Ancient History Aug 25 2003, 02:06 PM

Zoom.