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Posted by: phelious fogg Sep 8 2003, 10:13 PM

So a long time ago I was reading about Burnout and Ryan Mercury and all that wonderful Jazz.. My question deals with the free Spirit Lithe. I got the feeling that Lithe was the spirit of Big D minus the physical form. Aparently I havent seen a topic on it, So I was curious what the deal was with him.

Posted by: HMHVV Hunter Sep 8 2003, 10:19 PM

Along those same lines:

I heard that the novel "Headhunter" had something to do with D's death, but I couldn't get through it (because I think Mel Odom's a lousy writer).

So what exactly happened that had anything to do with his death in that novel?

Posted by: Peter Pan Sep 8 2003, 10:19 PM

@ Frog:

no idea, I found the idea that a great dragon would a) be elected by human electorate in contravention of millions of years of evolutionary instinct, and b) then somehow killed to be so absurd that it's one of the major reasons I won't switch from SR2 to SR3

Posted by: Adam Sep 8 2003, 10:22 PM

*blinks* You can play with SR3 rules and not use the SR3 timeline. . .

[And your analysis of the events show that you actually don't have a clear view of what caused Dunkelzahn's death.]

Posted by: BitBasher Sep 8 2003, 10:22 PM

Well Peter then you can blame your fellow SR players, becayse Dunkie won via ballots that were in previous sourcebooks, and he was elected by your fellow shadowrun players.

Second, Dunkie was not killed like you seem to imply, but I won't post spoilers, there are many others here that will.

Posted by: phelious fogg Sep 8 2003, 10:24 PM

Its Fogg not Frog..

Posted by: Lucyfersam Sep 8 2003, 10:25 PM

For anyone who hasn't read the Dragon Heart Saga, the following is a spoiler.

The spirit you are thinking of is names Lethe (after the river), not Lithe. It is indeed the spirit of Dunklezahn. For a complete story on him read the Dragon Heart Saga.

Posted by: phelious fogg Sep 8 2003, 10:31 PM

Okay thats what I thought, sorry for the misspelling of Lethe..
Thank you muchly

Posted by: Peter Pan Sep 8 2003, 10:40 PM

@ Adam:

Posted by: BitBasher Sep 8 2003, 11:07 PM

Posted by: Boondocker Sep 8 2003, 11:08 PM

The SR3 books are better, though.

Posted by: TinkerGnome Sep 8 2003, 11:10 PM

Posted by: AK404 Sep 8 2003, 11:32 PM

Gee, if only one event shook you up that badly, let it be known that Dunky was elected during the course of SR2. SR3 starts in 2060, years after his death. As for the "why would anyone vote for a great dragon?" question, it really boils down to two things: a) the other candidates just weren't up to snuff. Personally, the idea of the other big players winning the 2057 election would've seemed like a lose-lose situation to me. Just about every one of them had skeletons in the closet, it's just that Dunkie's bones had nothing to do with the Sixth World (or couldn't be proven, take your pick). b) well, it's Dunkelzahn. It really never mattered that he was a great dragon or that he had thousands of years of experience with humanity (or the other stuff), it was that he was the best possible candidate for President, and admittedly (coming back to the great dragon thing), the possibility of a President who could out-think, outfox, and outmanuever any of the heads of the megacorporations (with Knight and Lofwyr being distinct maybes) is a pleasing one. I mean, if it was Lofwyr or Lung or Aden, that's be another thing, but well...Dunky had some qualities that could be considered important for a great dragon to have.

Anyway, poo-pooing a game system just because one event (one that has consequences that don't even affect your average runner like RA:S or the fall of Fuchi might) rubs you the wrong way is makes no sense, since the system has absolutely nothing to do with the event timeline. Granted the only problem I have is trying to manage a 2053-2063 SR campaign and juggling the technological advances of the Matrix at the same time, so that a decker would have to adjust from the SR1 matrix all the way up to the SR3 standard, but that is neither here nor there.

Anyway, as to that Lethe/Dunkelzahn connection, yes, it's already been answered. Admittedly, I can't find that third book anywhere, but as far as I understand the situation, that's the gist of it.

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 8 2003, 11:37 PM

My site isnae required reading or anything for those who refuse or cannot by the books, but it wouldn't kill some of you to at least glance at it. I made huge lists of the sourcebooks and novels and shit for a reason, y'know?

Posted by: Talia Invierno Sep 8 2003, 11:49 PM

Or (c ) he (probably) wouldn't eat you if you don't vote for him (poor etiquette, don't you know), but you're not at all sure about that Yeats fellow ...

Posted by: Abstruse Sep 9 2003, 12:51 AM

I personally find it more shocking that GW Bush was elected than Dunkelzahn, but that just opens up the can of worms that is politics...

Yeah, FASA was trying to drag themselves out of the corner they painted themselves in...suuuure. Okay, let's make the presidential candidates our players get to choose from Some Dude We've Never Heard Of, Some Dude We've Never Heard Of 2, Some Chick We've Never Heard Of, and a Great Dragon that's been a major poster in two sourcebooks, a major subject of many bits of fiction in the game world, and a well-liked character. Gee, I wonder if FASA had any idea in advance who would win...you know, with the whole bit of DAMN NEAR EVERY PLOTLINE FOLLOWING drawing DIRECTLY from Big D's death.

Bakayaro!!

The Annoyed One

Posted by: aeprod Sep 9 2003, 03:04 AM

Can of worms open...

Posted by: Connor Sep 9 2003, 03:09 AM

This is getting way off topic and should definately belong in the Lounge, but...

The Supreme Court did not appoint any president. He was elected in a proper election and won fair and square. The Florida State Supreme Court told Gore that they coudln't go changing the rules of the election after the fact and besides none of the official or unofficial recounts of the Florida votes ever put Gore in the lead in that state, including the ones that Gore paid for.

If you people can't understand how the electoral college and the elections sytem in the country work you might want to pick up a civics book.

And just so you know, I'm not a supporter of Bush or the Republican party in any way.

Posted by: FlakJacket Sep 9 2003, 03:13 AM

This again? Christ would people get over it and stop whining? I mean, if Gore had managed to just carry his home state all of that would have been moot IIRC.

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 9 2003, 03:13 AM

Translation: If Bush bought anybody, it was the Electoral College. our votes don't actually mean anything. Even if Gore had gotten 15,000 more votes in Florida, he'd still have lost.

Posted by: phelious fogg Sep 9 2003, 03:27 AM

@ Ancient History
I had read through your geocities site before posting my question. I didnt find anything about Lethe on them, I even checked it again after I found out I had spelled it wrong.

I guess another question might be what Lethe and Burnout are upto these days... I know they are probably still sitting on the metaplanes, but you know itd be neat if someone went to talk to the Big D and see whats happening

Posted by: Peter Pan Sep 9 2003, 03:32 AM

@ Bit Basher

Posted by: booklord Sep 9 2003, 03:55 AM

The Terminator is about to be elected govenor of California
.....and you've got a problem with Dunklezahn being elected not being realistic?

I buy that the public elected Dunklezahn. I don't buy that the election was anything approaching close.

As to Bush.... No I refuse to be drawn into that argument.

Posted by: Peter Pan Sep 9 2003, 04:06 AM

Posted by: phelious fogg Sep 9 2003, 04:13 AM

@Peter Pan

Yeah using cannon can be a pain in the petunias... I dont really use cannon for much of anything storywise since politics dont affect any players I have had directly.

@Everyone
In any case I did start this thread as a question about Lethe, a character in a book. Not about the plausability of Big D being President, or about SR2 vs SR3. No point in having a heated argument about something that isnt really important. I am sorry if bringing up this topic brought that up. So if you have anything to discuss ON TOPIC, please do. I really would like peoples guesses as to whats happning with Lethe and Burnout now that its several years down the line. I gotta wonder if any of the other greats went to the metaplanes to talk to the Big D after the bridge was shattered.

Anyways I hope we can stay ON TOPIC please.

(This means no arguing over real or fantasy world politics.)

Posted by: Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate Sep 9 2003, 04:25 AM

Awright, how about this:

1.) Nobody has to use rules/metaplot they don't want to.

2.) People who don't have to use rules/metaplots they don't want to don't need to imply or outright state that the material other people use and like is substandard. Saying somebody is doing it all wrong and then saying they can't tell you what to do when they object isn't a very good way of defending your own position.

So now onto more important things, like who would win in a mud-wrestling contest: Dunkelzehn or Ibn Eisa?

My money's on the mud.

Posted by: Peter Pan Sep 9 2003, 05:23 AM

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Sep 9 2003, 05:27 AM

I believe Ibn Eisa is the leader of the New Jihad. Check Dot6W I believe he is in the Aden section.

Posted by: Peter Pan Sep 9 2003, 05:33 AM

ummm.... don't have Dot6W... so I don't even know what the New Jihad is (the old one seemed to be working fine...)

Posted by: last_of_the_great_mikeys Sep 9 2003, 05:44 AM

Ibn Eisa's mentioned prominently in Year of the Comet, I believe. Basically, he was a moderate Islamic leader who was assasinated, rose from the dead and pronounced an Islamic Jihad! Now everyone wants to know why he's not dead.

Posted by: Frag-o Delux Sep 9 2003, 06:33 AM

And Year of the Comet is the first mentioning of Shedim, which inhabit the bodies of the dead.

Posted by: Drain Brain Sep 9 2003, 08:57 AM

Ah, the voice of sanity...

Oops, no. Just me.

Okay, I'll try mummy...

hmm.


I (coincidentally) just finished re-reading the Dragon Heart Saga. In answer to our thread-starter's questions:

Lethe = Dunkelzahn, yes.

As for current whereabouts? Well here is the supposition.

With the death of the being Thayla, Lethe,took up the dragon heart, using its power (the mana channeled into it by Dunkelzahn's ritual - you know, the one that coincided with his explosive suicide?) to level out the mana spikes on "our" side of the chasm. With the task completed, I would assume that the Billy/Lethe entity (as it would by now have become, since the two were intertwining rapidly) would remain at the metaplanar chasm to take Thayla's place as a defending entity.

Plus, now that Lethe remembers his past as Dunkelzahn, wouldn't he have taken some role in the Draco foundation if he had come back?

Anyway... just rambling on now, so I'll stop and let you rest your eyes...

Posted by: Lilt Sep 9 2003, 09:58 AM

Jeezus. can people not use the spoiler tags?
I suppose there's no point now but:

Posted by: booklord Sep 9 2003, 12:51 PM

Posted by: Abstruse Sep 9 2003, 12:58 PM

The Horrors in Shadowrun are probably dead. Since the companies making Shadowrun and Earthdawn are now competitors (even if amiable ones), odds are they won't be doing too much more crossover-type stuff anytime soon. Both companies have said they will remain in communication and make sure they don't step on the other's toes (like FanPro saying that the lost kaern (can't remember the name, starts with a P) is back while Living Room Games saying that it was lost forever), but don't expect some big crossover-type event like with the Horrors again anytime soon. That is unless WizKids (which still owns both properties and is simply licensing them to FanPro and LRG) steps in and asks for one...

Then again, with Shadowrun I've learned to expect the unexpected

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 9 2003, 01:20 PM

There's been a lot of SR/ED cross-over in Fanpro and Lrg's material, but it's much more subtle.

Posted by: DigitalMage Sep 9 2003, 03:54 PM

Posted by: Synner Sep 9 2003, 03:59 PM

Lets get something straight, FASA had licensed Earthdawn to LRGs (meaning it kept the property rights to the game). When it went under a bunch of those rights went over to Wizkids (including Earthdawn) and Wizkids chose to continue the deal FASA had with LRG. This is nothing new.

Posted by: Drain Brain Sep 9 2003, 04:07 PM

I'm very sorry Lilt, really. I wasn't thinking.

On a related topic, HOW DID YOU DO THAT?

Posted by: Synner Sep 9 2003, 04:24 PM

You write [ spoiler ] without the spaces followed by [ /spoiler ] without the spaces to close the caption.

Posted by: Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate Sep 9 2003, 05:03 PM

Well, even if ED doesn't crossover so much, we still have those nice Wraith beasties from Paranormal Animals of Europe. Creepy lil' buggers.

Posted by: Dog Sep 9 2003, 08:15 PM

Who is Lithe, you ask?
Well the the girl behind the counter at this cyber cafe is....

Oh, did I get here late?

Posted by: Hot Wheels Sep 9 2003, 09:22 PM

Posted by: Orient Sep 9 2003, 09:55 PM

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 9 2003, 11:20 PM

Posted by: Boondocker Sep 9 2003, 11:31 PM

Hot Wheels,

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 10 2003, 12:19 AM

Boondocker

Posted by: Drain Brain Sep 12 2003, 07:33 AM

Posted by: Abstruse Sep 12 2003, 12:05 PM

With the CZ, read the trilogy and you'll understand. Us explaining it on here would take too long and just end up confusing you more.

And no, I'm not using the damn spoiler tags because if anyone hadn't read what was spoiled, no one would know what the hell I was talking about anyway

The Abstruse One

Posted by: SCLariat Sep 16 2003, 01:05 AM

I spoke with Mike Mulvihill through email not too long before the Big D bit the big one. I argued long & hard that a change in plot direction wasn't needed, but in the end the FASA bigwigs decided to move in a different direction after the torch was passed from Tom Dowd (one of the original creators of ED & SR) to Mulvhill.

Mike was never a fan of ED, and he was even had less love for ED/SR interconnection. Mike wanted to move SR into a more Blade Runner-ish corporate conflict model. FASA's SR sales were suffering at the time, and they felt they needed to create a stir. They decided to solve both problems by eliminating the most high profile connection of the ED/SR crossover i.e. Dunkelzahn. Mike's words were something to the effect of "the pot had gotten stagnant...we killed Dunkelzahn to stir things up a bit. " There were a great deal of storylines that have spun off from the death of Dunkelzahn.

The whole character idea of Lethe was designed to give the fans the glimmer of hope that Dunkelzahn would return, even though FASA had no intentions of ever doing so. It was a gesture to mollify fans like me. The idea of Lethe/Burnout standing on the bridge was supposed to be Dunkelzahn's riding off into the sunset.

Its interesting to see that FanPro/WizKids are teasing a return of the plot like with the Comet/Ghostwalker storyline. I guess we'll have to wait and see if it pans out. One of the possible plots could be a return of Dunkelzahn a la Ghostwalker. Ghostwalker (i.e. Icewing) had previously summoned the spirit of his deceased mate. It may be possible that he would try and do the same for his brother.

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 16 2003, 01:09 AM

Summon is a strong word "retain" may be more apropos.

Posted by: Boondocker Sep 16 2003, 01:52 AM

AH,

Thanks.

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 16 2003, 01:56 AM

So ka.

Posted by: Lucyfersam Sep 16 2003, 02:35 AM

Hmm, I have some theories about what Dunklezahn/Lethe may be up to, although they came about because I needed an excuse to run a modified version of Harlequin's Back (one of my players wanted to go through it, but those events happened a bit too long ago to just run it). For reference if your one of my players, I would greatly prefer you not to read beyond this point, it may lessen surprises. Some of this may also contain a few more spoilers from the end of the Dragonheart Saga, so read on at your own risk.



First off, Thayla is not necessarily dead. She fell into the chasm yes, but the end implies she may not be dead as Dunklezahn/Lethe sends what's her name the free blood spirit off in search of her. My theory/personal plot: the spirit never did find Thayla as she searched the depths of the metaplanes, but she found something else, namely Ghostwalker imprisoned somewhere by Horrors. She reports back to Dunklezahn, and he sets about weakening the prison to set his brother free.

A further bit that I added to the theory solely for the purposes of running my modified Harlequins Back is that somehow while he was weakening the prison, somehow the Horrors caught Dunklezahn/Lethe himself, leaving the chasm once again undefended.

Posted by: joe12south Sep 16 2003, 04:39 PM

I'm planning a meta-campaign that will start before big D dies, and continues on through. I do plan on Lethe being a background player (in addition to the impact of his Will.) I cannot imagine D's spirit being content to vacation on some metaplane. I'm going to make him actively seek connection with the "real" world. It won't be a focus, but it will be a sub-plot.

BTW, I'm happy to close up the whole horrors episode. Not that it wasn't good, it was just too big, too overwhelming, to cataclysmic. The awakened world is scary enough as is, moving too fast for players to keep up with as is. Wait a couple more decades of game time, then they might be more appropriate.

Posted by: Dog Sep 17 2003, 06:00 PM

About this idea that the big D killed himself to power some kind of artifact : I've heard this elsewhere, but I've never read anything that's convinced me that it's true. Possible, I know, but isn't assassination by the Azzies also as likely? I don't recall reading anything conclusive about the causeof death.
Someone help me out here. Ancient H?

Posted by: Abstruse Sep 17 2003, 06:05 PM

Read the Dragonheart Saga. It answers all your questions. And you get an official Sixth World knowlege skill of 1 according to AH.

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Dog Sep 17 2003, 06:08 PM

I did read Dragon heart. I just don't recall anything in it that confirmed how Dunkie died. What's in there that rules out an assassination? (It's been a while, I might have just forgot.) Spell it out for me.

Posted by: Black Isis Sep 17 2003, 07:15 PM

I've done something very different in my campaign (you can see it http://case.cso.uiuc.edu/shadowrun/timeline.html), but I have a lot of changes to the canon timeline (actually, after reading SoNA, I regret making some of them, but...). I also did not really like the whole Dunkelzahn dying in some spectacular fashion, I had him die peacefully at his lair (well, as far as anyone knows anyway). As for the whole Horror angle, no one in the game really knows about that yet, so I haven't bothered to address it.

When I do have wraiths or other malevolent creatures that could be Horrors, I intend to simply make them powerful, malevolent spirits or creatures, and not link them to any giant group -- instead, they will seem unconnected. I do like the idea of the Horrors, and of having a Horror behind much of the action in Aztechnology and Aztlan, so I will probably keep them, but make it very subtle -- something I've generally done with all supernatural aspects of Shadowrun really.

Posted by: Drain Brain Sep 17 2003, 07:46 PM

Posted by: Abstruse Sep 17 2003, 08:04 PM

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 17 2003, 09:10 PM

Do I have to drag out quotes? Dog, it's fairly implicit in the Dragonheart Saga that Dunkie cacked off to bring the Dragonheart into being. Check the sections where Harlequin's talkign about it.

Posted by: Bearclaw Sep 17 2003, 09:44 PM

Was the Aztlan sourcebook written before or after the election was decided?
That has the whole thing leading up to Big D killing himself, and completely explains it. I knew what happened when I read The Dragon Heart Trilogy, because I'd just finished reading the Aztlan sourcebook. As soon as he blew up, I knew why. It was part of the plot before the election was officially decided, obviously.

Posted by: Senchae Sep 17 2003, 09:49 PM

I haven't managed to acquire and read the trilogy. My question is not why did he die, but why right then? Was there additional power garnered by him blowing up right then and there? Or did Thayla happen to topple over at just the wrong moment and it was all a coincidence?

Posted by: Abstruse Sep 17 2003, 10:02 PM

Thalya wasn't gone yet, but the reason why was that Ryan Mercury, who was sent to Aztlan to spy around, noticed that Aztechnology/Aztlan had a locus. Basically, it's a power focus on crack. When Far Scholar found this out, he put his plan into motion.

I'm just guessing, but I think at this point in the dicussion, spoiler tags are pointless, ne?

Oh, and the Aztlan book was written LONG before the Dragonheart Triolgy. It was even before the Harlequin's Back adventures, and I believe in 2054 or 2055. Not exactly sure though...

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 17 2003, 10:33 PM

Aztlan was written after Harlequin's Back (since it refers to it) and before Dunkelzahn dies.

Posted by: Abstruse Sep 17 2003, 11:44 PM

No, before, as it was one of the things that sparked Laughing Man to action.

EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't see who I was arguing against. AH would definately know better than I would

The Abstruse One

Posted by: Herald of Verjigorm Sep 17 2003, 11:45 PM

You could just look at the numbers on the books...

Never mind, keep arguing.

Posted by: Bearclaw Sep 18 2003, 12:24 AM

If I remember correctly, the Big D complained about the laughing mans actions in the shadow talk.

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 18 2003, 01:57 AM

Harley refers distinctly to elements of Harlequin's Back in the Aztlan SB, especially concerning blood magic. Thus, things fall in the following order:

Harlequin's Back

House of the Sun

Worlds Without End

Aztlan

Portfolio of a Dragon

Posted by: Dog Sep 30 2003, 07:11 PM

I'll read it again, but I'm still not convinced....
For example: Dunkie might have prepared the dragonheart as a contingency in case he died, like a lot of other things. So sure, his death powered the heart, but was it suicide on D's part? What about all the indications that an elaborate explosive was used? Was it an assassination attempt that he was anticipating? I know of lots of people who are said to have 'given their lives' for something, but that doesn't mean they deliberately killed themselves to do it. I'm not ruling it out, I'm just saying that there might be other interpretations.

Posted by: Drain Brain Sep 30 2003, 09:50 PM

erm...

Posted by: Nath Sep 30 2003, 10:50 PM

Posted by: BitBasher Sep 30 2003, 11:33 PM

Posted by: Dog Dec 5 2003, 08:46 PM

Thanks, Nath. Where'd you get the insider info?
Everybody's theories and interpretations are great, too.

Posted by: Shanshu Freeman Dec 6 2003, 12:04 AM