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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ the (r) in making weapons and Conceal

Posted by: BlackSmith Sep 17 2003, 08:49 AM

lets say i put range finder in my weapon and pay the FCU ,25.
do i still get the conceal penalty?

if i do, why should i ever put any additions to my weapon and pay FCU from it?
i mean, what's the point?

Posted by: Arethusa Sep 17 2003, 04:57 PM

First, no, you don't. It's integral. Second, ditch the firearms creation rules because they're absolutely ridiculous. Just put something together that seems sane and get your GM to vet it.

Posted by: FlakJacket Sep 17 2003, 10:19 PM

Use spud's http://users.erols.com/elspud/sr/firearms/. Hell of a lot better IMO.

Posted by: Raptor1033 Sep 18 2003, 03:37 AM

so how come spud's rules don't allow you to add modifications to shotgun stocks and grips? rather odd in my eyes
/edit/ and on the same note, why not an under mod if the shotgun isn't pump action? and why can't you have a telescoping stock with shock pads on the ends? /edit/

Posted by: Tziluthi Sep 18 2003, 03:44 AM

Well, if the concealablility penalty is what your problems is, then you might be glad to know that rangefinders don't have one. That said, the CC firearm design rules suck the fat one.

Posted by: Morphling The Pretender Sep 18 2003, 04:29 AM

I don't like the way people poo-poo the creation rules in the CC. They aren't fabulous or kind, no. But I'm pretty sure they were meant to be for weapon techs building guns from kits, bits and parts of other guns. They aren't meant to be the ways to find the cost and potentials of precisely engineered weaponry. I suppose for new 'off the rack' weapons should just be conjured at GM will, or with the alternate rules by kind runners, like Peter Millholland.

Just my $.02. Maybe I'm just too kind.

Posted by: BlackSmith Sep 18 2003, 05:58 AM

QUOTE (Arethusa)

First, no, you don't. It's integral.

this was the thing i was looking for.
any chance for page number to back that one up also?

btw.
i gave a look for the link you gave about alternative weapon creation and That was ridicilous.
sure it might be nice in it's own system but it does not coupe well with other SR weapons. "well you got ruger thunder hawk, too bad. i got my custom made pistol baby that does as much damage in single shot".

Posted by: Rajaat99 Sep 24 2003, 02:43 PM

I have no prolem with the rules in Cannon Companion. I've made a bunch of guns with it and my players love them. The only thing, is that I use The Shadowrun Supplemental's firearm prices, the sensible way when designing a "mass-market" gun.
The only proplem I have with the CC rules is, more options. I want more options.
By the way FlakJacket, your link doesn't work.

The reference is on page 80 in the CC, "Space Restrictions".
"Modifications made to a firearm take up not only internal space, as represented by their FCU cost, but also mounting space."
Also on page 74: "FCU: Firearm construction units are abstract units that determine how much internal space the firearm offers to accommodate design options and modifications." Internal Space means it's internal.

Posted by: 252 Oct 2 2003, 12:39 AM

First: Personally I like the Cannon Companion Gun Generating Rules.

It's hard to be a munchkin with them, which I think is a great thing.

The next thing is can you put more then one item on a mount of their both internal?

Just wondering what's other peoples ideas on this concept is. (I am not a gun designer and I have never used a gun so I have no idea about these things.)

Just want to be as accurate to a real piece of weaponry as possible.

2:52:16
Try to do it faster, I dare ya!

Posted by: mfb Oct 2 2003, 05:20 AM

hahah. it's hard to play munchkin with the CC rules? hoooo.

that said, it's just as easy to play munchkin with spud's rules. the problem isn't really the rules--or, rather, there isn't really a problem. you can be a munchkin with any ruleset.

Posted by: Rajaat99 Oct 2 2003, 03:32 PM

QUOTE (252)

First: Personally I like the Cannon Companion Gun Generating Rules.
The next thing is can you put more then one item on a mount of their both internal?

Me too and No.

Posted by: Arethusa Oct 2 2003, 06:10 PM

QUOTE

First: Personally I like the Cannon Companion Gun Generating Rules.

It's hard to be a munchkin with them, which I think is a great thing.

Are you absolutely insane? The gun creation rules are notorious for being the most easily munchkinned rules in the game. I tried using them to put together a gun and had trouble coming up with something even remotely sane. No one should be forced to use them.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 2 2003, 07:29 PM

sane in real world context or SR context? remeber that while they look the same they are not so...

Posted by: Arethusa Oct 2 2003, 11:29 PM

The rules fail absolutely in real life, but, then again, so do all of SR's guns, independant of the rules. The difference is that the gun creation rules are miserable failures even within the context of Shadowrun.

Posted by: 252 Oct 3 2003, 03:16 AM

And if they are such great failures can you please go on. So that I might be able to make a decently realistic weapon. I mean, I know I have never shot a gun. I am sure that most of the movie and TV crap is just that totally fictional. So please I invite you to go on with what a realistic gun would be like. Try any type, Pistol, to an Assault Cannon.

Posted by: Arethusa Oct 3 2003, 06:21 AM

Assuming you aren't up for completely rewriting Shadowrun's combat system, or, hell, happen to like it, there's no point in trying to come up with a single realistic weapon to stick it into Shadowrun next to a ton of of stuff that defies physics, intelligence, and/or sensibility. If you do feel like ditching canon combat, give http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/ a shot. If not, I suggest you just look at something that's in the same class as the weapon you want to put together and work from there. Sensible judgement beats the crap out of rules any day.

I have a large set of semirealistic weapons that mesh with the canon stuff lying around. Still needs a bunch of flavor text writing, but I might as well get that done and post it here some time in the next few days to give you and idea of what I mean.

Posted by: hobgoblin Oct 3 2003, 12:48 PM

the big problem is that whilesr tryeds to be realistic it allso tryes to be fun, and those two dont allways mix. would it be fun to have rules for gravity effect on longe range shots and so on? having to calculate the diffrence in effect when adding say 5 cm to the barrel of the gun? i say no, but if you dont like the rules then dont use them (i have seen people doing a total covnert on games like D&D + others so)...

but this is realy the wrong thread to discuss ones views, the opening was a question about how the rules work, not about finding some alternate rules system...

Posted by: BlackSmith Oct 5 2003, 04:36 PM

QUOTE (Arethusa)

thanks for the page numbers Rajaat99.

would you show me your insane gun then? or did you just flip it trough the rules and made mental note that this sucks?
because i have made lots of excelent guns with the system and i would like to see how you abjuse it.
only thing that is see that should be worked is the barrel reduction/extencion part.

also his note about

QUOTE

"Why do they generally weigh less than other Shadowun firearms?" Because the weights listed in Shadowrun are notoriously screwy. What is listed under weight ratings is called a "kilogram". It should actually be called a pound. Things are excessively heavy in Shadowrun because of this.

is groundless.
his own weapons weight rough the same and using kilos dont screw anything up.
if i would be mean, i would just say that he can't adapt to use the world wide scales thus use metric/kilo system.

i dont know what has been the idea but these so called more "realistic" rules.
i ended up just a assult rifle that has concealability of 9 and can fire 20 rounds per combat phase.
meaning that it has higher ROF than books minigun and it is smaller than pistol having the same time much bigger caliber. if you use his suggested new ROF table for weapons, his own made weapons lack the speed to match up it and book guns are useless.
to me it is not realistic to have a assult rifle that is smaller than a pistol and pack a better puch.
no no no.

also using his rules removes sanity to use any of the SR original weapons because they all hang back in money/power/weight/concealability vs his own system made weapons.

his site has many good points but also lots of flaws.
one big flaw is that he thinks that aiming targets with scope from long ranges is harder if they are moving than using the scope to aim close targets that are moving while it is in reality just the opposite.
hiting a dear running 5m past you with a scope is a real pain in the ass, but hiting a moving target from 1km away is ricidiciously easy.[/B]

Posted by: Finbar Oct 5 2003, 10:28 PM

How to abuse it?

You can make an Assault Rifle with underbarrel Grenade Launcher, with a conceal of 9, go look up what else has a conceal of 9

Posted by: Morphling The Pretender Oct 6 2003, 01:56 AM

QUOTE (Finbar)

How to abuse it?

You can make an Assault Rifle with underbarrel Grenade Launcher, with a conceal of 9, go look up what else has a conceal of 9

A monowhip has conceal 10, for comparison.

Heh, at that point, the normal munchkin avoidance systems should kick in and the GM should veto that with authority. Then again, if someone is a good enough weaponsmith and has the proper parts and time, they probably could make a modestly small AR. I unfortunately do not own the CC, so could someone make positive that Finbar hasn't overlooked a limitation on AR building? Sounds like the would have caught something that heinous in creation. Then again, maybe not.
-------------------

there's no vestige of a beginning
no prospect of an end
when we all disintegrate it will all happen again

Posted by: Modesitt Oct 6 2003, 02:39 AM

Here's a few sample guns that are better than anything in the book

Frame: Shotgun(130 DP)
Ammo loading(Clip): +10 DP, -1 Conceal
Increased Power 2: +160 DP, +.5 weight, -.5 FCU
Weight Decrease 6: +30 DP, -1.5 weight
Extended clip 30: +60 DP

The end result: 1,950 nuyen, BUT, it's superior to any non-burst firing shotgun in the books. Why? It's the only clip-firing shotgun that has a base power of 10. About twice as expensive as a standard shotgun, but any decently-paid shadowrunner won't even blink at it. For something that's actually better than anything else in the books shotgun-wise, slap on Burst Fire for another 500 nuyen. There are no other shotguns in the books that are burst firing, have a clip(A definite plus over manual), and have a power of 10. It may have a conceal of 2, but you don't buy this shotgun for concealabilith or subtly, you buy it for the ability to kill other people. You can add a Gas Vent IV to the barrel, personalize the grip, and add shockpads to get the 6 RC you need. If you like, you can remove the extended clip portion and just add it after market because it wont be subject to Street Index. You'll also may want to use add the Extended Clip modification to it after market, since after market it isn't subject to street index but you also have to pay someone to add it.

Frame: Sporting Rifle(125 DP)
Ammo loading(Clip): +10 DP, -1 conceal
Firing Mode: SA/BF, +100 DP,
Increased power 2: +160 DP, +.5 weight, -.5 FCU
Weight Decrease 6: +30 DP, -1.5 weight
Extended clip 30: +60 DP

Looks an awful lot like that first one, doesn't it? That's because the principle of the same, only it's arguably worse because of the much greater range and because there are TWO burst firing sporting rifles in the books and they're both in the modular gun designs. There's simply no excuse to ever use any sporting rifle unless money is very important.

Have I made my point yet?

A rule should be implemented if it adds more options to what is optimal to do. For example, if a certain gun is overpowered to the point that everyone uses it to the exclusion of other guns, it should probably be nerfed. If a certain gun is never used, it could probably use a power up UNLESS it's just that it's very specialized but IS very good at whatever it's specialized in. For example, heavy pistols are fairly balanced against one another. Some are exceptionally specialized, but almost all of them have some use. The CC weapon creation rules are NOT good because they greatly limit the weapons you can maybe choose. Every shotgun will be the same because you CAN make the perfect shotgun, every assault rifle will be the same because you CAN make the perfect assault rifle.

You can preach all you want about "That's a very distinctive gun! You'll be recognized by it!" or any other argument but it's pointless. That argument is wrong because if there's a perfect shotgun, every shadowrunner under the sun will use it. It's not like FASA didn't anticipate people making guns better than anything in the book. Their Ares Thunderer had to have arbitrary story limitiations added in order to be kind of balanced, along with having a heavy street index in order to get approved by that GM. If you use the rules as written without applying more limitations to the guns, they WILL be broken and everyone WILL use the same gun eventually. Arbitrairily assigning statistics to guns and comparing them to other guns is more likely to get you a balanced weapon than the CC rules.

Posted by: Morphling The Pretender Oct 6 2003, 04:06 AM

QUOTE (Modesitt)

A rule should be implemented if it adds more options to what is optimal to do. For example, if a certain gun is overpowered to the point that everyone uses it to the exclusion of other guns, it should probably be nerfed. If a certain gun is never used, it could probably use a power up UNLESS it's just that it's very specialized but IS very good at whatever it's specialized in.

Sure, that makes some sense in the game balancing sense, but in the reality there will be products with will be just plain better than the competition in most areas.

Why don't the megacorps make perfect guns? Profit. Decent, cheap guns make a lot more than the world's most perfectly refined gun.

QUOTE (Modesitt)

Every shotgun will be the same because you CAN make the perfect shotgun, every assault rifle will be the same because you CAN make the perfect assault rifle.

No, you can't make the perfect anything. The DP and FCU will run out eventually, and the models have modest limits on them. If I need a concealable, break action heavy pistol, it will NOT be similar to the person who needs a 7 bullet revolver with kick to spare. You are overgeneralizing the needs of Shadowrunners as being all about concealment or all about power or all about the number of bullets heaved. To some people, a biometric safty is most important. Or ceramic construction. Or a secondary weapon system.

It's quite possible to make the perfect gun FOR YOU, but it's not necessarily going to be the perfect gun for me, or for Sammy Sammi over there. Also, the perfect gun is often the one that you don't have to pay 3 times as much to have someone else build for you. Also, the likelihood of my Ares Predator randomly breaking is exponentially minute, while the likelihood of my homemade gun breaking is much higher.

QUOTE (Modesitt)

It's not like FASA didn't anticipate people making guns better than anything in the book. Their Ares Thunderer had to have arbitrary story limitiations added in order to be kind of balanced, along with having a heavy street index in order to get approved by that GM. If you use the rules as written without applying more limitations to the guns, they WILL be broken and everyone WILL use the same gun eventually. Arbitrairily assigning statistics to guns and comparing them to other guns is more likely to get you a balanced weapon than the CC rules.

As I've said before, I'm almost positive it's primarily meant for kit-built guns, not off-the-rack guns, though it can be applied that way. Hence, unless shadowrunners have exactly the same needs, they will not have the same 'perfect gun.'

That's just my humble opinion. I could be wrong.

Posted by: BlackSmith Oct 6 2003, 06:09 AM

assult rifle with grenader and conceal 9?
get real. CC rules wont alllow it.

Internal magazine +1
bullpup +2
reduced barrel +2 (We house rule that reduced barrel increases the weapons conceal equal to (frames conseal x 1,5) but it also halves the range)

total of +5.

uuh.
now you got assult rifle that has magazine capacity of 1 and cabale of SA/BF/FA.

~

my character(s) usualy uses two or three custom weapons.
one sporting rifle that is cabable for burst fire and has conceal -2 (aka none) OR sporting rifle that has conceal 5.
Sniper rifle that has huge range and packs a best puch in the game with compleatly ceramic and easy break down + top on that all the scopes you can get with guncam.
Heavy pistol that is compleatly ceramic and packs a smart2 with voice activation.

ok now you say that they all are bad (in one way or another.) BUT, there is one point of custom made weapons.
they are unique.
see the guns in the books are mass produced weapons.
if someone kills bob the night clerk with remington the cops can't do nothing else but hope they get a cross the same ballistics some other place and with some gun that matches to it.

you go shooting around barrels all red with that your unique weapon of yours and you got few major problems.
1. when you need ammo, you have to custom order it and that is never easy. specialy without SIN.
2. leave even one shell at the crime scene and the cops can track you down. if you got a SIN they come to your door. if you dont have, they might still com trough your door. gunsmiths are not that lojal. specialy if money talks.
3. the ballisitics has it Sooooooo Easy to pin point you weapon among all the hundre... eh one custom made weapon(s) that is not registered this side of the sea. best of all to them if your gun IS registered so they can walk right in and take balistics from it.
4. having a custom weapon Always draws atention when you pull it out. you are always rembered (months at least) and sometimes you are bombed with Q's about it. best of all some, gun freaks might even steal it from you.

sure there are ways to get around these points.
1. use explosive or disintigrating ammo and pray that they all break down.
2. use caseless ammo and make your own ammo.
3. same as 1 and dont register your gun at any place.
4. this one is easy. don't use it.
but then the weapon comes rapidly more trouble than packing a one mass produced weapon.

so you can make any damn combination with CC and you get balanced weapon.

sure my sniper rifle (H-K 1667 Mes.Sa.N.ger) has more options, packs a better punch and much better range than Barret but it also costs 3-4 times more than barret and has higher availability plus if cops would get their hands on it they would have the murder weapon for over hundred sniper hits.
and when gun starts to cost more than 100k DOES make a deal.
now you might wonder how do i get so high prices? look my point 3 and you figure it out.

(i dont mind continuing this discussion here. i got my answers already. thanks again Rajaat99)

Posted by: mfb Oct 6 2003, 10:41 AM

i don't see anything really wrong with giving a sporting rifle BF. in real life, they're called battle rifles--there's no real hardline division between a battle rifle and an assault rifle (stupid insane SR bullshit skills), but a battle rifle generally chambers a higher-power round, like a 7.62 as opposed to the 5.56 or 5.45.

Posted by: BlackSmith Oct 6 2003, 11:23 AM

well the real life difference is that when you dodge to the dirt with your (hutting) rifle, the game is over.
on the other hand assult rifle will be spiting water, sand, dirt but still kicking like a dream.

and (sporting) rifles are not costructed to handle FA while Assault rifles are.
it is compleatly OK to have in BR in a (sprotting) rifle or a shotgun. they recoil is just awfull but manigable. Assault Rifles are build to handle the recoil and the stress.

and like you self said. Assult rifles pack a smaller bullets while (sportting) rifles use Bigger Punch ammo.

thus the divining (sporting) rifles and Assault Rifles has solid grounds.

Posted by: Rajaat99 Oct 6 2003, 03:40 PM

QUOTE (Modesitt)

It may have a conceal of 2, but you don't buy this shotgun for concealabilith or subtly, you buy it for the ability to kill other people.

The concealability is the most important thing for my players. They sacrifice power for concealability all the time. You obviously don't. That's just one example how not all Shadowrunners will take the "same gun".
I've seen a few home-made rules for designing guns and the CC is the best ones I've seen.

Posted by: Morphling The Pretender Oct 6 2003, 07:10 PM

QUOTE (BlackSmith)

...you go shooting around barrels all red with that your unique weapon of yours and you got few major problems...
(snipped)

Well, just because you customize or build a gun, that doesn't mean you are changing the caliber to an otherwise non-existant one. Frankly, for convienience and anonimity, I'd assume people would build them to handle the standard ammo for the gun type. (In SR, all guns of the same type can share ammo anyway, so it's less realistic, but more pragmatic in a lot of ways, in game and out.)

Of course, distinctive style might be a nice way to interpet a new caliber of gun... but without a facility (MAYBE a shop) you probably aren't going to invent a new breadth of ammunition. In my humble opinion, that is. I don't understand the precise reality of it, but it seems unlikely to me.

Posted by: BlackSmith Oct 6 2003, 08:31 PM

QUOTE (Morphling The Pretender)

Well, just because you customize or build a gun, that doesn't mean you are changing the caliber to an otherwise non-existant one.

no but the ballistics are compleatly unique.
you can't say that it has been shot from certain type of gun by just looking the wounds/holes in the wall.

QUOTE

Of course, distinctive style might be a nice way to interpet a new caliber of gun... but without a facility (MAYBE a shop) you probably aren't going to invent a new breadth of ammunition. In my humble opinion, that is. I don't understand the precise reality of it, but it seems unlikely to me.

making a new caliber ammo is not hard. finding shells, fiting chamber and pipe is.

Posted by: Person 404 Oct 6 2003, 09:05 PM

It's not just that the CC rules are weird in terms of balance, so much as they produce guns that shouldn't physically be able to exist. It's easy to create a 30-round assault rifle that's smaller (or at least more concealable) than most light pistols. If you can figure out how to fit 30 assault rifle rounds and the mechanism of the rifle itself in that amount of space, more power to you.

Posted by: BlackSmith Oct 6 2003, 09:14 PM

...and some numbers?

Posted by: Person 404 Oct 6 2003, 10:11 PM

There is a chance that I screwed this up somehow, since this is my first time using the CC rules, but I don't believe I have. Start with the base assault rifle frame. Conceal 3, Ammo Cap 30, FCU 3. Take the barrel reduction option (-.5 FCU, + 2 conceal.) Take the Bullpup Config option (-.5 FCU, +2 conceal). Neither option, as far as I can tell, affects the ammo capacity of the gun.

3 conceal base + 2 for reduced barrel + 2 for bullpupping = 7.
3 FCU - .5 for reduced barrel -.5 for bullpupping = 2.

You can do whatever you want with those 2 FCU. I don't personally care, since a 30-round assault rifle that's smaller than most pistols is surreal enough for me; if someone else wants to make it even more insane, go ahead.

Posted by: Modesitt Oct 7 2003, 03:54 PM

QUOTE

I repeat: You do not buy THIS gun for concealability. If you want a more conealable shotgun, the Spas-22 with a sawed off barrel is closer to what you want and it's a stock gun. You can get 6 conceal out of it. In fact, as a general rule you DON'T buy shotguns for concealability. You buy a gun that is genuninely concealable for that purpose.

QUOTE

assult rifle with grenader and conceal 9?

get real. CC rules wont alllow it.

He's wrong on that point, but you can make a burst firing shotgun with a 50-shot clip that has a conceal of 8. I have...issues with that. But the Assault Rifle with a grenade launcher and 9 conceal can't exist UNLESS he means with a long coat.

QUOTE

and (sporting) rifles are not costructed to handle FA while Assault rifles are.
it is compleatly OK to have in BR in a (sprotting) rifle or a shotgun. they recoil is just awfull but manigable. Assault Rifles are build to handle the recoil and the stress.

I'm not proclaiming the burst fire on a sporting rifle is inherently overpowered compared to all other weapons. I'm pointing out that a 9S burst-firing sporting rifle is simply inherently superior to any other sporting rifle for raw killing power since there AREN'T any with 9S and burst fire. There's at least one stock sniper rifle design that does more damage base. It's not like it eats up all of it's FCU doing that either, you've got plenty of space for things like Improved Concealability. For future reference, sporting rifles have normal recoil, not double uncompensated.

QUOTE

ok now you say that they all are bad (in one way or another.) BUT, there is one point of custom made weapons.
they are unique.
see the guns in the books are mass produced weapons.

Please read what I said before: If a 'unique' gun design is better than any other gun design of the same class, EVERYONE is going to get one eventually and by 'everyone' I mean NPCs. It WONT be unique because it has been copied to death.

QUOTE

you go shooting around barrels all red with that your unique weapon of yours and you got few major problems.
1. when you need ammo, you have to custom order it and that is never easy. specialy without SIN.

Absolutely incorrect. In Shadowrun, all guns of the same class(Heavy pistol, sporting rifle, assault rifle) use the exact same ammunition unless it is explicitly noted otherwise, ie the Barret Model 121. You can take bullets from my AK-97 and use them in your Ares HVAR, you can take flechettes from my Ares Predator and load them into your ares viper sliver gun. You may have a case for the clip, but all clips also have the same availability and cost regardless of what gun they fit.

QUOTE

2. leave even one shell at the crime scene and the cops can track you down. if you got a SIN they come to your door. if you dont have, they might still com trough your door. gunsmiths are not that lojal. specialy if money talks.

Like you point out below, EVERY gun in Shadowrun is available in a caseless variety at no extra charge. You can have a caseless pump action shotgun, a caseless heavy machine gun, minigun, whatever.

QUOTE

Products that are just plain Better than the competition can exist. I've no issue with them existing. The main issue is that, as a general rule, the weapons are balanced against one another. Deciding whether to use an Ares Predator, Browning Max Power or some other heavy pistol is an actual decision without the CC rules.

Why would the corps have to make perfect guns to the exclusion of cheap guns? There is certainly a market for ultra high end firearms, if not the military and legit security firms than under the table bargains with Shadowrunners. There would still exist a market for cheap guns. There's also a market for potato chips, but we don't list 20 different varietys of potato chips in the main book in spite of the fact htat no one will ever use them just because we htink we need potato chips and the world will end if there are not enough varietys of potato chip.

QUOTE

The shotgun design I suggested had room for everything you just listed. More concealment, a biometric safety, ceramic construction, and a secondary weapon system. You would need, at most, 4 or 5 designs for each frame to get a weapon for everyone. A completely unconcealable gun with lots of power, a very concealable gun, and 2 or 3 more specialized versions.

Part of what I like about Shadowrun is the sheer VARIETY of weapons and cybernetics and spells and oh so much more. The CC system was implemented probably under the idea of letting people customize their guns even more - but in the process, they effectively removed almost every gun they had ever designed from the game. Money may be an issue in cases of corps cutting corners, but for the majority of shadowrunners, the type of poeple who buy ammo in lots of 38746587432, keep an assault cannon in the garage, a LAW under their bed and a dead body in the trunk of their car, paying a few thousand nuyen for a gun is practically chump change. Their gun is used often and having the best they can get is worth it.

I'm ignoring what may be left of your post but not to insult you, more that we got sidetracked on the main point. I pointed out in the previous paragraph that the intent was probably to create more variety, but instead they killed it. You had to make genuine decisions before hte CC rules on what gun you wanted to use. While some were clearly superior to most in their class for most purposes, for example the Ares Alpha, all of them had SOMETHING keeping them kind of balanced or at least a reason not to use them. The Ares Predator is heavier, has a lower conceal, and a larger clip than the Browning Max Power. Both have a purpose. But what if you could have a gun that weighed less than the browning, had a clip bigger than the Ares Predator, and the concealability of the browning? That gun would cost LESS than the Browning and yet be better than either by the CC rules.

Variety is the spice of life. In D&D, people often don't like playing the same class as someone else because they don't want to step on their toes or get their toes stepped on. Some classes, like the Fighter, have so much variety that you can have multiple fighters without any overlap between them. The same holds true in Shadowrun, where Mage's will avoid some of the same spells other people have(Exceptions for stuff like Heal), shamans will avoid taking the same totem, street sammys avoid unusual cyberware that other people already have(Example, an eye datajack), and people avoid choosing the same metatype as other people. Being the second minotaur in a party isn't near as special or unique as being the only one. These are just general rules. People like being different and special. Making it so everyone can have all the best features of every gun they ever liked cuts into it. Having YOUR heavy pistol do 10M or be made entirely of ceramics or have recoil compensation is no longer special because anyone can have a gun that does 10M, be made entirely of ceramics, and recoil compensation all at once.

The point of this is screw the CC rules, arbitrairily assign statistics and compare them to other guns. Is it simply better than another gun without it being an upgrade, ie Ares Predator II and not have a commensurate price tag? Do you like each gun being a little different from all the others and sometimes having features no other gun has? Then see the first sentence of this paragraph.

Posted by: Rajaat99 Oct 7 2003, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (Modesitt @ Oct 7 2003, 03:54 PM)

QUOTE

You didn't get my point. *Sigh* Whatever.

I see nobody is going to change their minds on their feelings towards the CC rules. Some like them some don't.
If you haven't seen any of them, check them ALL out. That's my opinion.

Posted by: BlackSmith Oct 7 2003, 04:21 PM

QUOTE (Modesitt)

The CC system was implemented probably under the idea of letting people customize their guns even more - but in the process, they effectively removed almost every gun they had ever designed from the game. Money may be an issue in cases of corps cutting corners, but for the majority of shadowrunners, the type of poeple who buy ammo in lots of 38746587432, keep an assault cannon in the garage, a LAW under their bed and a dead body in the trunk of their car, paying a few thousand nuyen for a gun is practically chump change.

...

That gun would cost LESS than the Browning and yet be better than either by the CC rules.

except.
it is not mass produced thus it has higher availability.
why it is not? not enough profit for the corps.

QUOTE

no there is no BR sporting rifles because the yare DESIGNED to have SA mode. there is no assault rifles that have only SA as a fire mode.
yes it is possible to have other modes but they are something they are not DESIGNED to do.

and what is your point about sniper rifles?

yes in game terms they have but ever shot a rifle with BR mode? small caliber weapons (like ARifles) dont break your shoulder while leting a FA, while a dear rifle breaks your should certanly if you try soemthing like FA.

QUOTE

like mentioned earlier.
as long it is not in the mass production it is a hand made, custom weapon thus not cost effective. sure every NPC might have 9S sportting rifle but you tell me why they pay much more for a hunting rifle that that they use for combat while they could get a AR cheaper?

QUOTE

well pardon but you should use your eyes.
look at ammo section at availability part. "same as weapon".
so sure you can use but if you want to use ammo to Your gun you have to beat it avail.

QUOTE

Like you point out below, EVERY gun in Shadowrun is available in a caseless variety at no extra charge. You can have a caseless pump action shotgun, a caseless heavy machine gun, minigun, whatever.

yes BUT caseless ammo dont mix in cased ammo.
and in old info it costed 20% more.

Posted by: Phase Oct 7 2003, 05:16 PM

This is a munchy gun I designed when I was
bored one day. I wanted to see what the most
extreme handgun replacement was that the
system would allow.

130 Base Shotgun Frame

F: FCU, C: Conc, W: Wight, RC: Recoil Comp, P: Power.

10 Ammo loading Clip (C -1)
8 Barrel Reduction (F -.5, W -.25 C +2)
25 Bullpup (F -.5, C +2, RC 1)
100 Firing Mode SA/BF (F -1, W +.5)
25 Heavy Barrel (F -.25, W +.5, RC 1)
40 Improved FCU 4 (F +1)
160 Increased Power 2 (F -.5, W + .5, P +2)
30 Weight Decrease 6 (W -1.5)

Base Gun:
Damage 10S (+2)
Fire Modes SA/BF
Conceal 6 (-1. +2, +2)
Weight 4.25 (-.25, +.5, +.5, +.5, -1.5)
Ammo Cap 4©
Mounts Barrel, Top, Under
Internal RC 2
FCU 0.75
DPV 528

add in some more goodies!

195 Smartlink 2 (F -.5 W +.25)
92 Extended Clip +46 Rounds (= 50 Rounds)
25 Personalized Grip (RC -1)

and we end up with

Damage 10S
Fire Modes SA/BF
Conceal 6
Weight 4.5
Ammo Cap 50 ©
Mounts Barrel, Top, Under
Internal RC 3
FCU .25
DPV 840 = 4200 nuyen
Internal Smartgun 2 built in

Choke must be 6 or less at all times
All ranges -10%, which is still better then a heavy pistol.

and this still leaves all mounts unused and an additional .25 FCU
for more goodies depending on your style/needs.

Only disadvantage is it has a high weight for a Heavy Pistol replacement
and the price.
It bursts for 13D and is easier to hide then an Ares Predator.
Seems broken to me.

But with the correct GM oversight, I think it can give players a few nice options.

Posted by: Modesitt Oct 7 2003, 11:39 PM

QUOTE

except.
it is not mass produced thus it has higher availability.
why it is not? not enough profit for the corps.

Did you read the example gun they gave us, the Ares Thunderer? It has an availability of 8 and is a failed ares prototype. A CANCELLED project, which has the same availability as the Spas-22, a MAW launcher and the Ares Alpha. Your argument on that front isn't looking too good.

QUOTE

If there are no burst fire sporting rifles becaues they are designed to have SA mode, then why is it on the list of available firing modes for a sporting rifle in the CC?

QUOTE

and what is your point about sniper rifles?

I brought them up because they're one of the closest comparable guns to sporting rifles. A burst firing sports rifle is close or, in some cases, statistically superior to a sniper rifle.

QUOTE

yes in game terms they have but ever shot a rifle with BR mode? small caliber weapons (like ARifles) dont break your shoulder while leting a FA, while a dear rifle breaks your should certanly if you try soemthing like FA.

Bringing up realism when you are discussing pure game mechanics is bad form. As far as the game is concerned, a sporting rifle, an assault rifle, a heavy pistol, and a submachine gun firing on burst fire have the exact same kick. Arguably, one could say the fact that an SMG and an assault rifle can have more RC built in than a sporting rifle or heavy pistol represents this, but there are exactly 6 guns in Shadowrun that actually have built in RC that doesn't come solely from barrel mods or a folding stock. Those guns are the 5-7C, the savalette guardian, the Ares Alpha, and the 3 high-velocity guns.

QUOTE

like mentioned earlier.
as long it is not in the mass production it is a hand made, custom weapon thus not cost effective.

Perhaps they are. They certainly don't seem to be any harder to come by than standard weapons. The Ares Thunderer has an availability of 8, equal to that of the Spas-22. Pretty good for a failed Ares experiment that wasn't deemed cost effective. The availability time may be quite long, but it's not that bad really. Unless you're replacing your gun every run, you can conceivably replace it anytime it gets destroyed or just have a spare one of it on your gun rack.

QUOTE

sure every NPC might have 9S sportting rifle but you tell me why they pay much more for a hunting rifle that that they use for combat while they could get a AR cheaper?

Wannabe snipers looking for an alternative to pricier sniper rifles? Lacking the Assault Rifles skill? They actually are a hunter and just buying one gun that you can hunt animals and humans with is cheaper than one for each? For an assault rifle to genuinely exceed the 12D of a burst fireing sporting rifle it would need to fire a 6-round full auto burst(3 rounds gets you to 11S, 4 to 12S, 6 to 14D). The sporting rifle could pull that 12D off twice per round if the user liked. Sporting rifles also have a longer range than any assault rifle.

QUOTE

well pardon but you should use your eyes.
look at ammo section at availability part. "same as weapon".
so sure you can use but if you want to use ammo to Your gun you have to beat it avail.

Maybe you've got some really screwed up version of the main book, but mine lists an availability rating for every single type of ammo. Like Regular ammo is 2/24 hours. Pg 281 of the BBB for the ammo listing. It's only for the Legality of ammunition that it says "As Weapon". Note that that is rather stupid, in that the legality of ammunition is up in the air if it isn't in a gun or loaded in a clip. Whether my shotgun slogs are legal or not depends on whether I plan to load them in my Remington 990 or Spas-22, in spite of the fact that they could be loaded in either gun without the ammunitinn actually changing. Also read page 279, they explicitly state that any sort of ammunition can be swapped between weapons of the same class. The Ares HVAR, the AK-97, and Colt M-23 all use the exact same ammunition if they're all caseless or cased, as the case may be.

QUOTE

yes BUT caseless ammo dont mix in cased ammo.
and in old info it costed 20% more.

Why does it matter that 'caseless ammo dont mix in cased ammo'? The only type of ammo that does mix in other types are tracers.

As for the old info - It's old info. It is, again, explicitly stated otherwise. Pg 15 of the CC, second paragraph. Also on Pg 276 of the BBB, right column, first paragraph. Ammo cost is the same for both types and you can get a caseless gun at no extra charge.

I just want to know this - Are you trying to argue that the rules for gun creation and design are completely balanced?

Posted by: BlackSmith Oct 8 2003, 12:33 PM

QUOTE (Modesitt)

yes, it has availability of 8, no it is not mass production gun. like you self said, it is canceled gun project and like CC says swining it around gets extra atention.
look at my last note.

QUOTE

If there are no burst fire sporting rifles becaues they are designed to have SA mode, then why is it on the list of available firing modes for a sporting rifle in the CC?

Because it is POSSIBLE to make it have BR also but it is NOt DESIGNED to hande high ROF.
get it?
not all cars have autogears, because they are not DESIGNED to driven with automatic gears but instead manualy, but it is POSSIBLE to get them with autogear also but that costs you more.

QUOTE

I brought them up because they're one of the closest comparable guns to sporting rifles. A burst firing sports rifle is close or, in some cases, statistically superior to a sniper rifle.

try to see one point. the guns are categoriced for their purpose.
not by their damage codes.

QUOTE

a bad form?
in to discussion of game mechanics that is based on realism? hey, we are not talking about magic.
and assault rifles DO accept more RC than other guns short of xMG's, IN game mechanics.

QUOTE

no your wrong.
first you desing the gun, GM gives it a beckground if needed and gives it a availability.
NOT the other way around.
if you are geting a mass produced weapon (out of the book) first you look the avail and then the accessories and price. no GM involved.

QUOTE

Wannabee would get a real sniper preaty soon. Characters lacking something practice to get more skill to use the gun. Hunter would need registered weapon for that one or he might run in trouble rapidly. AR can handle FA while SR does not.
if you are looking to fire only burst and high damage, then BR cabable SR is you choice.
if your looking a weapon that can handle SA/BR/FA, adapt in many situations and be cost effective, assault riffle is your choice.

QUOTE

Maybe you've got some really screwed up version of the main book, but mine lists an availability rating for every single type of ammo.

seems so. well the rules suck big time at that part. gladly i got some bad version.

QUOTE

Also read page 279, they explicitly state that any sort of ammunition can be swapped between weapons of the same class.

no shit? this is what i have trying to tell you the last two posts.

QUOTE

Why does it matter that 'caseless ammo dont mix in cased ammo'? The only type of ammo that does mix in other types are tracers.

because you put a caseless ammo in cased ammo using rifle, it does not iginate, fit in to the chamber or it jams. works both ways. CC at the part where your building your weapon, last page.

QUOTE

I just want to know this - Are you trying to argue that the rules for gun creation and design are completely balanced?

yes, but seems that you can't see why.
and i have a vagiue idea why you don't see.
you got these D&D-sunglasses on. "if the Core book does not say it, it is groundless no mater what DM says".

CC are compleatly balanced when you remeber that GM has the final touch of the weapons avail, St- index and possible other edges/flavs. in D&D you can take the magic item creation rules and make god killer EQ without any fuzz from DM.
in SR you can make that 13D ares Thunderer BUT it has some social drawbacks too, unlike in D&D.
in D&D you can walk in to kings chabmer with your +10 sword and +10 fullplates and nothing hapens. "it is not in the books". while in SR you get shot, killed and shot ones more by Knight Errand because of your wroong coloured jacket.

so, im saying you got D&D-Glases on and that the CC weapon creation rules are balanced as long the GM is awake.

Posted by: Arethusa Oct 8 2003, 04:42 PM

I hope and pray that English is not your first language, but even if it is not, that is no excuse fot the amount of stupidity and vitriol you've liberally dumped into your posts. And so I would like to make a number of points that you seem to have overlooked:

QUOTE (BlackSmith)

yes, it has availability of 8, no it is not mass production gun. like you self said, it is canceled gun project and like CC says swining it around gets extra atention.
look at my last note.

The gun creation rules are not purely for custom smithing jobs, but for any gun, mass produced or no. Just because the one example given in the book is a failed prototype does not mean all guns created with the rules are failed prototypes. The bit about the gun being good for grabbing attention is not covered in the rules, and is really more for roleplaying purposes than anything else.

QUOTE (BlackSmith)

Your point about hunting rifles not being designed for burst fire is idiotic. You can make them burst. There are no weapon reliability rules. I can take the thing to a rnage and fire 2,000 bursts through it without a single problem. How it is designed has nothing to do with it.

QUOTE (BlackSmith)

try to see one point. the guns are categoriced for their purpose.
not by their damage codes.

Believe it or not, damage codes are a part of weapon functionality. In this case, we're talking about a smaller, cheaper rifle being given an ability that allows it to statistically outperform a much larger, more expensive, and more specialized piece of hardware.

QUOTE (BlackSmith)

a bad form?
in to discussion of game mechanics that is based on realism? hey, we are not talking about magic.
and assault rifles DO accept more RC than other guns short of xMG's, IN game mechanics.

Bad form or not, the realism points you mentioned we also flat out wrong at various points. And, it is worth pointing out that realism has no place is a very large amount of the Shadowrun gun rules. To some degree, yes, we are talkinga bout magic.

QUOTE (BlackSmith)

The GM does not necessarily assign background and availability. In fact, I would say this really belongs to the designer and the GM should vet the entire package.

Moreover, you missed his point: a custom designed gun can be very cost effective for a runner. To be fair, though, anything that keeps your ass alive and allows you to do your job and still make a worthwhile profit, for a runner, is cost effective, and the only real place you'd need to worry about cheaper weapons and the like is when outfitting, for example, an army.

He did have a point, though: for a failed prototype, it was ridiculously easy to get ahold of. And that's just one of the problems with the CC rules.

QUOTE (BlackSmith)

But his point is that a hunting rifle that can burst easily outperforms an assault rifle, and, with the right recoil compensation— which is quite easy to get— can snipe with almost the same effectiveness as a Barrett 121. The difference between 12D and 14D is really not that significant, after all. Is it as flexible as an assault rifle? Not quite. But when the performance gap is this wide and the price this low, who cares?

QUOTE (BlackSmith)

no shit? this is what i have trying to tell you the last two posts.

To be honest, I couldn't tell through all of your posts either. You earlier claimed that you'd need to order custom ammo when you ran out of stuff to shoot in your custom gun. Outside of something like the Barrett 121, this is very much not the case: all sporting rifles use the same ammunition, custom made or not, etc.

QUOTE (BlackSmith)

He does not have 'DnD sunglesses' on. Moreover, DnD does not necessarily lack social ramifications for whatever; it's just less socially oriented. But, in any case, your assumption that the rules are fine so long as the GM is awake is incredibly asinine and absurd. Any rule set is fine as long as the GM intervene's via GM fiat whenever the rules get out of hand, but the problem with the CC rules is that they get out of hand almost constantly. Conceal 7 assault rifles and conceal 6 shotguns with 50 round mags? No amount of GM balancing is going to make either of those examples any less retarded, and they are more the norm than exception. Any ruleset that allows for that is a complete waste of time. I've used the CC rules and they are not only easy to abuse; they're difficult to use sanely.

Modesitt's right: best route is to screw the CC rules and just put something together that looks sane. If the GM vets it, it's in.

Posted by: Rajaat99 Oct 9 2003, 04:34 PM

I think I'll instate the 20% more for caseless ammo rule in my game. I like that.