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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ What the hell happened to dwarves?

Posted by: mmu1 Aug 26 2005, 12:33 PM

I'm talking about the -1 to reaction, -1 to initiative deal here.

At what point did dwarves develop slower reflexes than all the other metahumans, including trolls? I don't remember seeing any reasons for that in canon (lower agility because of short stumpy legs I can understand, but lower reaction?), and it seems like a weird way to balance out the race (if that's what this change was to do) when you can now simply adjust the cost in build points...

Posted by: Samoth Aug 26 2005, 01:50 PM

They had -1 Quickness in SR and SR2.

Posted by: mmu1 Aug 26 2005, 01:54 PM

QUOTE (Samoth)

They had -1 Quickness in SR and SR2.

And trolls did too, in SR3 - but they now have -1 agility, not -1 reaction.

And dwarves get stuck with both a penalty to reaction and a penalty to init (which reaction is factored into) - they're really making them slow as molasses.

Posted by: Samoth Aug 26 2005, 01:58 PM

I guess they're trying to even them out since they were the most broken SR3 class. Not sure why they'd get minuses to reaction instead of agility though.

Posted by: blakkie Aug 26 2005, 02:34 PM

Both Agility and Reaction came from Quickness, so it is a case-by-case which way to take that -1.

P.S. Dorfs were the obvious point buy SR3 power play. Not so much anymore i guess. Also notice that they are the only race with a + to Will, which will (1/2 the time) give them an extra box of Stun condition monitor.

Posted by: Eldritch Aug 26 2005, 02:55 PM

It's just another case of The Man Picking on the short guy again

Posted by: Sabosect Aug 26 2005, 03:03 PM

Bahrayah dis! *tosses a grenade into the crowd*

Seriously, this really doesn't do much. Most of the characters I play are human anyway. Humans have always been munchkin factories, no matter the game, and will continue to be such. This just focuses them as being such.

Posted by: Toshiaki Aug 26 2005, 03:07 PM

I think that the Reaction penalty at least makes sense, even if it hurts (as it is the Dodge stat). Reaction is not only a measure of reflexes, but also how quickly you can get your entire, short, stumpy body to follow those reflexes. Agility is more of a hand-eye coordination thing.

So, yeah, I don't think that it would be cool that a dwarf wouldn't pull his hand off a hot stove very quickly, but it does fit logically that he couldn't move out of the way of the berserk troll (which is going to be far more common).

Posted by: hahnsoo Aug 26 2005, 04:22 PM

It's only a -1 to Reaction. Initiative is a derived stat, and the -1 to Initiative takes the -1 to Reaction into account.

Posted by: tisoz Aug 26 2005, 07:10 PM

Reaction is also the linked attribute for piloting about everything. So much for the dwarf rigger stereotype.

Think how much dissent there would be if they had reduced Agility with all its linked skills.

Posted by: kigmatzomat Aug 26 2005, 07:34 PM

Remember that Riggers are Deckers with a 0.5 Essence control rig now. They run vehicles from VR, where initiative is Response+Intuition so a penalty to Reaction is moot.

Posted by: tisoz Aug 26 2005, 08:22 PM

So the Smuggler sample character wasted 36 BP on Pilot Aircraft and Pilot Ground Craft?

Or are you talking more about the former drone rigger?

Posted by: JonathanC Jan 13 2008, 03:23 AM

I figured it's better to recycle a thread than make a whole new one. I too have a question about dwarves. I remember SR3 had a little writeup, otensibly written by a dwarf, where he explains that:

1. Dwarves are frequently mistaken for children.

2. Dwarves have human-sized torsos, and could "wear your shirts".

Now, how the hell is this possible? Anyone who is 3-4 feet tall and has a man-sized torso is not getting mistaken for a child. Any opinions on this? Has the official word on dwarf appearance changed in SR4? And if they do look like kids, why are the Japanese so hard on them? I figure they'd be hella popular with the loli-goth community.

Posted by: Cthulhudreams Jan 13 2008, 03:47 AM

Dwarves are still pretty slick in SR4 if you're not betting on needing agility or reaction. So for awakened characters.

Orks are the street samurai power/hacker gaming factory, getting sweet strength and body for 20 points, and the loss of logic and charisma mean not much to street sams or hackers.

Posted by: JonathanC Jan 13 2008, 04:33 AM

That's interesting, but not exactly related to what I was asking.

Posted by: Glyph Jan 13 2008, 05:01 AM

I kind of read it as dwarves being treated like children because of their size - being patted on the head or talked down to. I don't think he was implying that dwarves resemble children, only that a lot of people treat them condenscendingly because of their short stature.

Posted by: JonathanC Jan 13 2008, 05:43 AM

Ah, okay, that makes way more sense, and is a lot less creepy (I had visions of dwarven joytoys making a killing on Myspace).

Posted by: Cardul Jan 13 2008, 06:15 AM

QUOTE (JonathanC)

Ah, okay, that makes way more sense, and is a lot less creepy (I had visions of dwarven joytoys making a killing on Myspace).

Who's to say they still don't?

Also, alot of people tend to mistake people under a certain height for children. Just like they tend to mistake guys with long hair for women, and women with short hair for men. Or two men going around together as being gay(yet, strangely, two women are not often automatically assumed to be lesbian...)

And, here is the thing to remember: Since VR totally over-rides the senses..well, you probably COULD have dwarven joytoys living it up on Myspace 3.0...just don't ever epect to meet them in person, that "13 year old dwarf girl" the pervert is going after might actually be a 40 year old male troll

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 13 2008, 10:39 AM

She said she was a dwarf!

-Frank

Posted by: ElFenrir Jan 13 2008, 11:33 AM

QUOTE

Orks are the street samurai power/hacker gaming factory, getting sweet strength and body for 20 points, and the loss of logic and charisma mean not much to street sams or hackers.

Don't forget mages. They get no penalty on Intuition based magic, and the tiny penalty to their Logic and Charisma(1 less isn't that big a deal)doesn't matter compared to the huge Body and Strength bonus. Well, +2 Strength isn't huge, per se, but being able to start with the 4 and 3 before touching them(if you even decide to), makes them a happy power factory for any class.

Dwarves, though, do make great mages, also not having to touch Strength, and the Body and Willpower bonus is great on top. the 1 less reaction can be worked around. But Dwarves AND Orks were Priority D in SR3, making them the natural choice for ANYTHING. You only had to touch priority E if you played a mage, and then, Skill points were still 27, and were enough to get what you needed.

Yet, I still didn't see huge crowds. People, in general, in my observations, still prefered to play elves and trolls. Elves i guess because they're elves and trolls because they are bigger, meaner orks(never mind the typical troll is NOT the berserking maniac most people seem to decide to play, but that's another story.)

Posted by: JBlades Jan 13 2008, 11:44 AM

Know what I always wondered based on that same description? If the majority (say 80%) of the difference in height for a dwarf is from his short legs, what happens if you throw human length cyber legs on a dwarf? Specifically cyberlegs that correct the height difference, and are sized correctly to his torso. Do you have a buff, tough, willful human for all intents and purposes? I've never done it, but I've wondered...

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 13 2008, 11:46 AM

Honestly, I see a dwarf or two in every single game I run for 4th edition. Elves show up about half the time. I see hardly any trolls, and orks are less well represented than elves.

So yeah, since 4th edition came out, the totals I have personally seen have run:

Human
Dwarf
Elf
Ork
Troll

And in 3rd edition I saw:

Human
Elf
Ork
Dwarf
Troll

Back in first edition, I saw:

Human
Troll
Elf
Ork
Dwarf

---

A lot of that is random. And a little of that is game mechanical pressure. But mostly I chalk it up to the way the races are portrayed in the basic book. The SR4 Dwarf gets some awesome pictures in the sample character section.

Humans will always be the biggest draw, because every character concept could be run a a human.

-Frank

Posted by: ElFenrir Jan 13 2008, 11:58 AM

Well, i didn't play 1st, but ive seen:

2e: Human, and then faaaar away Elf, Troll, Dwarf, Ork. Yeah, i saw less Orks than anyone here. Easily 90% of people i saw were human.

3e: Human, Elf, Troll/Ork tie roughly, Dwarf.

4e: Human, Ork, Elf, Troll, Dwarf.

Dwarves seem to be in the last bit throughout the time, Orks moved up as time went on, Trolls seemed to always stay in the middle, with Elves being second the entire time except for SR4. I could say that ive run into a decent 30% of SR4 characters as orks nowadays. While humans i think will always rule the roost, i think alot of players(especially new ones, or people who do pay attention to cost to attribute bonus ratio), see orks as basically a huge benefit with little hinderance(and since they can take the Human Looking edge...).

Posted by: DTFarstar Jan 13 2008, 12:24 PM

Hmm, we have been playing SR4 2 days a week off and on for almost 10 months now, with a 2 month break while two of our players toured Europe. So... not a ton because we had problems getting enough players, but a good bit so far we have had

Humans - 6(3 were one player, she never plays anything but human)
Elves - 3
Dwarves - 1
Orks - 3
Trolls 3

If I recall correctly. One guy always plays trolls, I have played an elf and an ork, the girl always plays humans, one guy has been an ork, dwarf, and human, and another guy has played human, ork, and troll.

Chris

Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Jan 13 2008, 01:51 PM

I want to point out that dwarves don't get a -1 to reaction, -1 to initiative.

Their initiative isn't modified at all. It's Reaction + Intuition, just like everybody else's. Yes, the lower reaction results in a lower initiative, but "-1 to reaction, -1 to initiative" sounds like a total -2 to initiative.

And they don't get a "-1 to reaction", anyway. Their maximum attribute is one lower. It's an important difference. If your dwarf character concept doesn't rely on maxed out reaction, you're not really suffering. (And even if it does, it's only a difference of one point.)

However, you are getting two points of strength, one point of body, one point of willpower, thermographic vision and +2 body against pathogens for 25 bp, which is still a bargain. And you're not likely to hit your head on that max reaction of 5.

Compare that to previous editions, where the negative modifiers really were - X, where you had to buy attribute points and then lose them.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 13 2008, 02:05 PM

QUOTE

And you're not likely to hit your head on that max reaction of 5.

as a dwarf there's not really all that much you're likely to hit your head on anyways *g*
the one thing that will come back to bite you later on is the money you have to pay more to get things made modified to your size . . especially the bigger/more expansive things get REALLY expansive because of the % increase . .

Posted by: Konsaki Jan 13 2008, 03:02 PM

I didn't see it said, so I'm going to bring up the fact that the Dwarf race is the slowest race in terms of movement speed. They walk and run slower than everyone, which will be a huge problem in running away.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 13 2008, 03:15 PM

well, there's hover-feet and other cyber-stuff that makes you run faster isn't there?
at least it is not such a huge fixed difference as it was in SR3 . .

Posted by: MYST1C Jan 13 2008, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

And in 3rd edition I saw:

Human
Elf
Ork
Dwarf
Troll

Just coincidence but that ranking is actually what you get when you total the individual country demographics given in Shadows of Europe:
67.29% - Human
10.35% - Elf
09.18% - Ork
07.24% - Dwarf
04.71% - Troll

Posted by: JonathanC Jan 13 2008, 05:14 PM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

She said she was a dwarf!

-Frank

LOL, if dwarves have man-sized torsos, I don't see that excuse working in 2070. On the other hand, there is bodysculpting...I guess desperate dwarves could make a killing in Thailand.

Ew.

Pass the mind bleach?

Posted by: Ravor Jan 13 2008, 05:21 PM

I think it might have been in one of the GURPs cyberpunkish books, but I imagine that you have people paying docs to give their kids "Peter Pan Treatments".

Posted by: JonathanC Jan 13 2008, 05:34 PM

Why? I mean, leonization is the life-extension treatment, and it doesn't leave you a child for your whole life. Outside of pedophiles, I can't think of a good reason why anyone would want their kids to remain children forever.

Posted by: Zen Shooter01 Jan 13 2008, 06:33 PM

Pedophiles have a good reason?

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 13 2008, 06:37 PM

QUOTE (JonathanC)

Toxic Great Mother Shamans.

Posted by: Glyph Jan 13 2008, 09:38 PM

QUOTE (Zen Shooter01)

Compare that to previous editions, where the negative modifiers really were - X, where you had to buy attribute points and then lose them.

Dwarves didn't have Attribute penalties in SR3, though, so the change in how Attributes are purchased makes orks and trolls a better deal. The dwarven disadvantages (lower running speed and requiring gear adjusted for their use) haven't changed.

That's part of why orks are the new min-maxer's choice. They get a net gain of 20 points compared to a human, and their bonuses are good even for non-combat builds, since a 4 Body and 3 Strength are good levels to have those two Attributes at, and it leaves more points for other Attributes. Orks are also cooler in SR4 - they have orxploitation, ork posers, and the Or'zet language now.

Dwarves, by comparison, have a net gain of 5 points compared to a human, and suffer from that lower running speed and require specially modified equipment. Dwarves can be fun to roleplay, but they are a bad choice from a purely min-maxing perspective, especially compared to SR3.

Trolls give you the most net gain compared to humans (30 points), but a Strength of 5 is more than a non-combat type really needs, and the hit to the maximums on Agility and most of the mental Attributes really hurts. They make good combat-oriented characters, but are sub-optimal for other roles. Although I admit, I still like playing them in such roles, sub-optimal or not, because I like playing characters who are different than the usual stereotype of a troll.

Elves are virtually the opposite of trolls - they are the only metatype that actually has a net loss of 10 points compared to a human, but they are still a viable choice because they don't have any lowered Attribute maximums or other penalties, and because their bonuses are in very useful areas. They start out a bit weaker (unless you are playing a face), but have higher potential later on.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 13 2008, 09:45 PM

don't forget about their natural IR and resistance to poisons and or diseases.
if you're planning on being on the gritty and dirty side, that's worth ooh so much . .

Posted by: Riley37 Jan 13 2008, 11:46 PM

Dwarven mage with maxed or soft-maxed WIL can soak a lot of drain.

Dwarf is a decent choice for Technomancer (using WIL to resist Fading) or Rigger (needs WIL to resist simshock when drones take damage). Rigger has lower max on REA for the Pilot skills, but with a control rig and decent skills you can still get enough DP for most vehicle control tests.

Posted by: Serial_Peacemaker Jan 13 2008, 11:56 PM

Well with their higher agility I always thought that Elves make a kind of natural gunbunny. If of course you are going for a combat build. Also for summoners the charisma bonus gets nasty, nothing like having a half dozen bound spirits. To be fair it takes a while to get there though.

Posted by: Jaid Jan 14 2008, 01:01 AM

for riggers, the reaction attribute isn't actually as important as you might think it is.

it's gonna be a problem for people who drive vehicles in the meat, or using AR-enhanced driving, but not a problem for actual riggers, who use the response of the vehicle they are driving, +2 for having a control rig, and probably +2 for hot sim. which completely disregards reaction in every way.

Posted by: Whipstitch Jan 14 2008, 03:14 AM

Elves are the metatype I'm least likely to use, but it's hard to argue with a boost to agility, which after all applies to virtually all combat skills, as well as infiltration and a few technical skills. Plus, much like Orks with strength, 3 is a pretty decent place to leave charisma for non-social types.

Posted by: Ravor Jan 14 2008, 04:58 AM

QUOTE (JonathanC)

Well it was described as a treatment mostly aimed at the super rich who wanted their children to stay children, and yeah, it did not increase life span at all.

Of course, in the fluff it was also stated as something that a subset of streetwalkers used as well, if I remember correctly the cop relating the story was suspended because she busted a companyman with a "Panner" who was actually legal age.

Posted by: Cardul Jan 14 2008, 06:14 AM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

But mostly I chalk it up to the way the races are portrayed in the basic book. The SR4 Dwarf gets some awesome pictures in the sample character section.

Humans will always be the biggest draw, because every character concept could be run a a human.

-Frank

Ok, I have to say that I do agree with that, the Halfers got some great art, and, in fact, the art seems to have made them more proportional, no longer the short legs and normal sized upper bodies. Which, really, makes more sense. Basicly to me, the Dwarf's main physical differences between a human is denser muscle mass, a much more efficient immune system(which..could be a factor of their size), and their size.

Now, though, as for any character concept being able to be done by a human? I suppose that depends on your idea of "concept." For me, Meta-type is an integral part of the concept, as it shapes the build..And, national origin is part of the concept as well, and no way yu are going to tell me that a Way of the Wheel practiontioner from Tir na nOg could be done as a human..

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 14 2008, 09:26 AM

QUOTE

and no way you are going to tell me that a Way of the Wheel practiontioner from Tir na nOg could be done as a human.

Funny you should mention that... but actually there are a few non-elves who practice path magic. They are considered pariah by the Tir government and the High Order of the Sun and the Stars denies their existence. So if you happen to be from the nOg, and you do path magic, and you're a human, then the first part of your "why I live in Seattle and run the shadows" backstory is essentially done for you.

Remember that people often imprint on whatever kind of magic is around them, so someone growing up magical in a Tir elven family may well develop path magic.

-Frank

Posted by: Fortune Jan 14 2008, 11:45 AM

I was all set to comment on that very same little piece of text, but Frank pretty much covered it.

Posted by: JonathanC Jan 14 2008, 06:46 PM

QUOTE (Cardul)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 13 2008, 06:46 AM)

But wouldn't proportional dwarves be, well....halflings?

Posted by: hyzmarca Jan 14 2008, 07:19 PM

QUOTE (JonathanC @ Jan 14 2008, 01:46 PM)

QUOTE (Cardul @ Jan 14 2008, 06:14 AM)

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 13 2008, 06:46 AM)

But wouldn't proportional dwarves be, well....halflings?

A normally proportioned dwarf is a midget, though the politically correct term is "little person".

Posted by: JonathanC Jan 14 2008, 07:48 PM

That applies to humans though. I'm talking about fantasy people...Dwarves in fantasy literature have a very different build from dwarves and midgets in real life, and the same goes for Halflings, who literally just look like humans that happen to be 3 feet tall in D&D 3.x

Posted by: Cardul Jan 15 2008, 07:12 AM

QUOTE (JonathanC)

D&D is not Shadowrun. Dwarf is a term that has been used to apply to Little People, but they are NOT proportioned the same way as non-little people. If a SR Dwarf were proportioned the same as a SR Human, then, the Dwarf would NOT be a little person.

Posted by: JonathanC Jan 15 2008, 07:35 AM

Neither D&D Dwarves, D&D Halflings nor SR Dwarves (from what I can see) are proportioned like real-world Little People. Even proportional Little People usually have proportionately shorter arms, and stubby fingers.

What I was wondering is if we have any official word on what Dwarves look like now, because some pictures have them looking a bit D&D like (barrel chested, short legs, broadly built), while some (usually dwarf females) look more like gnomes or halflings, with proportionately small bodies.

Posted by: Daddy's Little Ninja Jan 15 2008, 02:06 PM

We play that dwarves are heavier, stockier than human children so cannot where childrens cloths. The proportions don't fit.

QUOTE (Konsaki @ Jan 13 2008, 10:02 AM)

Take the cyber feet with the wheels inside. When things get bad, pop the feet out and have an elf tow the dwarf at high speed.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 15 2008, 02:52 PM

QUOTE (Daddy's Little Ninja)

We play that dwarves are heavier, stockier than human children so cannot where childrens cloths. The proportions don't fit.

QUOTE (Konsaki @ Jan 13 2008, 10:02 AM)

Take the cyber feet with the wheels inside. When things get bad, pop the feet out and have an elf tow the dwarf at high speed.

*imagines that*
god's you should see the looks i get for laughing like i did at that mental image *g*

Posted by: Snow_Fox Jan 19 2008, 05:26 PM

She's a seriously sick chick. I'm such a good influence on her!

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 19 2008, 06:17 PM

i'm actually laughing at an ELF trying to throw a dwarf *g* probably the other way around more probable ^^
me playing trolls . . i do such things from time to time . . not allways with consent ^^

Posted by: ElFenrir Jan 19 2008, 07:13 PM

Dwarves are smart. Maybe they can design dwarvish rocket feet?

Posted by: Jhaiisiin Jan 19 2008, 07:49 PM

Using that as a jump off point, why not just stat out a high-speed, wheeled mini-drone and implant most of that design into the feet, and DNI it up. Then he can have self-propelled cyber-skates.

Posted by: Stahlseele Jan 19 2008, 08:37 PM

that idea is not all that stupid *writes that down*
but with the hover-feet of augmentation that is practically allready there *g*
traceless walk and gliding for mundanes! and better than the adept way *g*

Posted by: knasser Jan 20 2008, 12:57 AM

QUOTE (Stahlseele)

Plus - wear them round the house your carpets will be, like, totally clean all the time.

Hover feet! *shakes head sadly* I think they were the only thing in the entire Augmentation book that I looked at and thought "What were they thinking?"

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2008, 12:59 AM

QUOTE (knasser @ Jan 20 2008, 10:57 AM)

Plus - wear them round the house your carpets will be, like, totally clean all the time.

That'd be Hoover™ Feet!

Posted by: JonathanC Jan 20 2008, 01:40 AM

QUOTE (knasser)

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 19 2008, 08:37 PM)

Hover feet are AWESOME!

Posted by: kanislatrans Jan 20 2008, 02:09 AM

I kinda like dwarves. Our recent team was made up of a Coyote shaman,riggger, and hacker, all dwarves. A human physad rounded out the group. (short chinese kid ).
on one run we posed as a retro glitter rock band. Called ourselves "Big Hammer" and made quite a splash in the Seattle scene. Made two discs that both went platinum. The first called "But she had no teeth" Not bad music even though the hacker tossed it together by sampling a bunch of stuff from the 1990's. The second was called"I didn't know she was your mother" and was released post humously after the physad didn' t show for a run and the shaman tried to fill in for him in the melee part of the run
(grin)