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Dumpshock Forums _ Shadowrun _ Initiative and running speed

Posted by: Space Ghost Aug 31 2005, 08:55 PM

Does having more actions actually allow you to move farther in a round?

Posted by: hahnsoo Aug 31 2005, 09:01 PM

QUOTE (Space Ghost @ Aug 31 2005, 03:55 PM)

Does having more actions actually allow you to move farther in a round?

Not exactly. The movement rates on page 138 are for whole Combat Turns and not individual initiative passes.

However, you may potentially move faster because you can use multiple Simple Actions to increase your running speed by Sprinting.

Posted by: Space Ghost Aug 31 2005, 09:21 PM

Does a person with multiple passes (say, three for instance) have to split his movement in three parts? That would be a little strange because a person with only 1 initiative pass could arrive at his destination before Mr. Wired.
Example
Pass 1: Mr. Wired goes first, moves 1/3 his distance. SlowBoy goes next, going his full distance and arriving at Destination.
Pass 2 and 3: Mr. Wired goes two more times and catches up with SlowBoy on his final Pass.

Or can you move in a pass that you don't have an action in?
Example
Pass 1: Mr. Wired moves 1/3 his movement and takes an action. SlowBoy moves 1/3 his movement and takes his action.
Pass 2: Mr. Wired moves another 1/3 and takes and action. SlowBoy moves another 1/3 but doesn't have any actions left.
Pass 3: Same as Pass 2.

Or, alternately, does your speed simply act a cap on how far you can go in a round, regardless of how many actions you can take?
Example
Pass 1: Mr. Wired goes first. He can move his entire distance and take an action. SlowBoy goes next. He can move his entire distance and take an action.
Pass 2: Mr. Wired can take an action, but has no movement left. SlowBoy can do nothing at all.
Pass 3: same as Pass 2.

Posted by: Mr. Unpronounceable Aug 31 2005, 09:33 PM

That's pretty much how it worked in SR3...though a lot of folks houseruled splitting movement by maximum initiative passes, not simply personal ones.

For example: (note: numbers made up so the math is easy)

Fastboy has an 11 initiative and moves 24 meters/turn
Lardboy goes on 3 and moves 8 meters/turn

so there's 2 passes, each moves 1/2 of their movement on each pass
Fastboy goes, Lardboy starts moving
Fastboy has pass 2, Lardboy continues moving (but gets no additional actions)

Posted by: Cang Jan 19 2006, 07:04 PM

im still very confused on movement. in the book it says

QUOTE

Twitch the elf samurai is chasing down an opponent. He’s an elf, so his Running Rate is 25 meters per Combat Turn. This particular Combat Turn is three Initiative Passes long, so he moves (25 ÷ 3) 8 meters per pass. If Twitch stopped running for one pass to help up somebody his opponent knocked over, then he would
only be moving 16 meters that Combat Turn.

So this pretty much means that if you have more IP you move slower each turn. So someone with 1 IP would get there on there first pass and someone with 3 IP will have to wait for their last after everyone else has gone.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 19 2006, 07:10 PM

No, I think it means that someone with 1 IP would get a third of the way there and act on their first pass, and on the next two passes continue their movement.
That example is rather incomplete, because it only considers Twitch, who seems to have three IP, although it never explicitly states that.
Twitch may very well only have 2 IP. It says the turn has 3IP, not Twitch.
Maybe he acts and moves the first pass, going 8 meters, on the second pass he helps his friend up, and on the third pass he can't act, but still moves 8 more meters.

Posted by: Azralon Jan 19 2006, 07:15 PM

I almost wouldn't mind if they said everyone has a movement of X, and each additional physical IP you get lets you move another X.

It'd simplify combat movement, and let the people who do things 3x faster than normal cover 3x more ground.

Posted by: Cang Jan 19 2006, 07:19 PM

Lets say twich here has one IP and the combat turn has three passes. would he start running on the first, cont. on the second and on the third be at the location? that seems to make some meaning out of this to me. Everyone running that turn would only get there at the third pass. Twitch with one IP has to use his action on his first pass but will only get there on the third, so if he wanted to punch the guy he is after he would have to do it on the next combat turn, being he doesn't have a turn at the third pass. Yet the guy with the three turns gets to act on every but will still get there at the third pass with twich.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 19 2006, 07:20 PM

Remember, the example is based on the round being 3 IPs long, not on the number of IPs that Twitch actually has. This method of doing things is normally extremely intuitive, you simply divide everyone's movement by the maximum number of IPs that anyone in the combat has. It can get pretty hairy, of course, as soon as anyone spends Edge for an extra IP - since of course they don't have to do that at the beginning of the round...

BTW, did anyone else notice that example was modified from a previous edition where elves ran faster than humans?

-Frank

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 19 2006, 08:02 PM

QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jan 19 2006, 07:20 PM)

It can get pretty hairy, of course, as soon as anyone spends Edge for an extra IP - since of course they don't have to do that at the beginning of the round...

Not really. It only makes a difference at all if the edge spent increases the total number of IP in the round, i.e. one of the fastest people spends edge.
In this case, the people acting in the last pass (which is composed of only people who had the highest number of initiative passes in the combat, AND spent edge to act in the extra one) are simply not allowed to move during the last pass.
Consider this problem shaved.

edit: And no, I hadn't noticed that.

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Jan 19 2006, 08:04 PM

Hrm. As nobody can have more than 4 IPs, it would be a solution to always calculate movement for that case.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 19 2006, 08:11 PM

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 19 2006, 08:04 PM)

Hrm. As nobody can have more than 4 IPs, it would be a solution to always calculate movement for that case.

True. Interesting idea.
How would that look, though, if no one was going very fast?
Everyone acts and moves a little bit.
Everyone moves a bit.
Everyone moves a bit more.
Everyone finishes their move.

That seems a little bit weird, but it solves the problem of having to ask the GM who the fastest person is every turn just so you can calculate how far you move per IP.
I think I like it.

Posted by: Cang Jan 19 2006, 08:50 PM

Frank, so do you mean that if there is someone with 3IP in a combat turn you take each persons movement and divide it by three. Then a person with 1 IP moves 8 Meters on their one turn and the person with 3 IP moves 8 meters every turn if they all had a base of 25 m/turn?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 19 2006, 08:55 PM

QUOTE (Cang)

If I'm understanding Frank correctly, the person with 1 IP moves 8m and acts in the first pass. The person with 1 IP moves 8m but does not otherwise act in the other two passes. The person with three IP moves 8m and acts every pass.

Cang, it's really not helping that you keep using the term 'turn' wrong. I know it's nitpicky, but in a conversation like this you really need to distinguish between turn, pass, action, phase, etc. You're using 'turn' for everything.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jan 19 2006, 08:58 PM

I like dividing things by the 4 initiative passes as well. I think it makes a lot of sense.

I'd also like to point out that wired reflexes and synaptic boosters do not increase your physical speed, merely your reaction, and the ability for your nervous sytem to process the signals it recieves.

Now, I can see a reason for certain muscle augmentations to increase strength, or your running speed being enhanced by the average of your strength and agility, or something to that effect.

Edit: Perhaps that would work. Running speed is 25 + Half Str+Half Agil
That way certain augmentations would make you physically faster as well as mentally faster.

Posted by: Cang Jan 19 2006, 09:04 PM

Thanks, that clears it up. Sorry for using the word turn, it isn't nitpicky, it's just i am used to it i guess. Thanks again. Just trying to get this right for my players.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 19 2006, 09:15 PM

Cang: No problem. This has always been a confusing issue.

Shadowmeet: I like that idea. The fixed 4 passes make figuring speed easier, I think, and putting strength into the calculation seems realistic.

Posted by: MaxMahem Jan 19 2006, 09:25 PM

QUOTE (Azralon)

I house rule exatly that, but with movment taking an action (ala D&D) to balance it out. Works pretty good.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 19 2006, 09:38 PM

Note: at 25 m/turn people are already running towards the high end of normal human running. That's a 12 second hundred meter dash before sprinting checks are made.

Using just the basic rules, a character can make two sprinting checks per IP, both of which are strength based, so very strong individuals can run exceedingly fast (a cybertroll with a synthacardium can quite plausibly run a 3 second 100 meter dash, which would be expected to handily win drag races). Agility does not factor into running speed at all, but considering that Agility adds to all your hand-eye coordination skills like longarms and lockpicking, that doesn't bother me at all.

-Frank

Posted by: Liper Jan 19 2006, 09:47 PM

I'm glad they changed the running rules, because elves would rule the world beyond just thier daisy eating magic.

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jan 19 2006, 09:54 PM

See, I think I skipped over the sprinting rules. That's better than my idea.
Thanks Frank.

Posted by: Cang Jan 19 2006, 10:22 PM

one more question. If i have a player who is human (running an average of 25 m/turn) who wants to attack someone with his sword that is 25 meters away and he has one IP and his other team mate has 3, can the person with the 1 IP say he wants to attack the goon across the room and run on the first IP, second IP and reach his target and hit it on the third IP (for he will be using one complex action and a free action to do this)?

This is pretty much what i am trying to figure out for my axe wielding player.

Posted by: Space Ghost Jan 19 2006, 10:28 PM

Well, now i'm starting to lean towards allowing extra speed for those who have extra IPs. As for the current rules, my concern is this:
Joe Average wants to move towards his enemy (25 metres away), and punch him. Joe has one IP.
If no one in the combat has 2 or more IP, Joe can get there and hit the guy in his action.
If anyone has 2 or more IPs, Joe has to divide his movement. He'll go 12.5 metres, take his action (he's too far to punch the guy, so it's wasted), then arrive at his enemy during the second pass. He needs to wait until the next turn to actually hit the guy.

Is there any way to take your movement during the first pass, but delay your action until later ones? That would clear up everything.

Posted by: Space Ghost Jan 19 2006, 10:30 PM

Oops. Looks like Cang beat me to it.

Posted by: Cang Jan 19 2006, 10:32 PM

i am very very sneaky

Posted by: Shadowmeet Jan 19 2006, 10:32 PM

In my opinion, yes, that is possible. You can move and then strike. But wiser heads may say I am wrong

Posted by: Corporate Raider Jan 20 2006, 01:04 AM

Depending on how many IPs you decide to divide everyone's movement by, no one may be able to melee that opponent 25m away. If the GM, as suggested above, decides to always divide movement over 4 IPs, then its possible that no one will be able to melee that opponent, since it very possible that no one in the group has 4 IPs.

That really wouldn't bother me, though. In a three second turn, I don't have a problem with most people being unable to run 25m and strike an opponent.

Posted by: Space Ghost Jan 20 2006, 01:27 AM

Sounds good. As long as it's fair i don't mind. Always dividing your speed by 4 means that the mere presence of someone with more IPs won't change how Joe moves. Human movement would be 6 per pass, which is fine.

Posted by: FrankTrollman Jan 20 2006, 02:30 AM

QUOTE (Cang)

What you can do is delay your action until the 3rd IP and make your attack at that point.

The time it takes you to close can be used by cybered people with guns to repeatedly shoot you right in the face, but you can make your attack within the turn.

-Frank

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jan 20 2006, 02:49 PM

Sounds good to me.

Posted by: Cang Jan 20 2006, 02:51 PM

thank you very much everybody, now i get it.