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Posted by: Ori0n May 9 2006, 11:47 PM

I have a great idea, and a fairly good beginning plan to create a Shadowrun MMORPG.
I need people who are also interested to help me in this project.

This will NOT be a ground-up project as that I have found a decent MMORPG engine called

http://www.realmcrafter.com/

And a few other programs and webpages

http://www.leadwerks.com/
and
http://mmorpgmaker.com

My initial idea is to create a simple Demo using a gaming Module.
Only one scenario, will make it easier to complete and see what we are working with.

If this gets off the ground, the software will be licensed [it's either free or cheap], and I will pursue permissions from WizKids.

I NEED

• Programmers
• Artists
• Writers
• Character Designers
• GM's
• LOVERS OF SHADOWRUN

Posted by: eralston May 9 2006, 11:57 PM

What edition or SR are you wishing to build from?

What expectations for mechanics or gameplay do you already have?

What experience in software development or game design do you have?

What is your timetable for this project?

Posted by: Ori0n May 10 2006, 12:03 AM

I am most familiar with 3rd Edition, but everything is open for discussion.

I have no expectations for mechanics and gameplay, I just have the idea and desire to play. Though I know this is not an original idea.

I have over 7 years of software development experience in C and C++

Timetable?
I wouldn't know until the project actually began.
Perhaps, 2 years?

Posted by: eralston May 10 2006, 12:09 AM

I have talked with two other SR MMO groups (SR online and another through sourceforge), but I either dislike their direction (SRO) or have no faith in their skills (SourceForge).

The latter has time to turn things around, but right now, as I am the only one with any documentation concerning game mechanics (that I wrote anyway), I am the intellectual core of that project and I could leave taking everything it has produced with me.

If you are not only serious, but also competent, you might be what I wanted from the other two projects. I find myself in a bit of a dilemma

Posted by: Straw Man May 10 2006, 03:24 PM

And I'm sure any team would be praising allah for the bounty of your presence, if that's the sort of ethic you bring to the table, eralston.

I've been working on an SR MMO for quite some time, and I'm now reminded why it has remained a largely solitary endeavor. It takes a special kind of person to alienate both their current and prospective team members with such a short post. Kudos.

Posted by: eralston May 10 2006, 05:31 PM

Perhaps your solitary endeavor has sheltered you from this, but...

When you're in a team and you're the only one working (as this is literally the case), it doesn't make you a little bit ticked? Ticked enough to just go "If it's just me, then why are you guys in charge?"

It's not like I signed on the dotted line, receive any form of compensation from them, or they will be irrevocably destroyed by my departure. I wouldn't want anyone feeling like a slave to one of my projects so I shouldn't feel like a slave to theirs.

Posted by: Mardegun May 11 2006, 03:56 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 11 2006, 06:39 PM

A quick look-see of Realm Crafter does not inspire confidence.

~J

Posted by: eralston May 11 2006, 07:08 PM

I think the logic for using the engine is more economically motivated than artistically motivated. Not that you ever do much more than naysay Kage

But hey, with the bar set so low by SR the FPS, one could make spider solitaire with the SR logo on the back and it would probably feel less sickening...

Posted by: Shadow May 11 2006, 07:45 PM

You guys should try and look at it a little more realistic. Make the best game you can with what you have. Then show it to the http://www.microsoft.compeople who will ever get to make a MMORPG Shadowrun game. Then they like what you have done, and hire/fund you to make a real game.

Realistically, you are not going to be able to create, fund, host, and administrate a MMORPG unless it is text based. But shoot to make a great game that a company with dollars would consider funding. This is not a shoot down I think you should do it, just be a little more practical about your goals.

EDIT: I am a writer and I would love to work on this in anyway. If you need my services just pm me.

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 11 2006, 07:51 PM

Thats not entirely true...

Like I said in the other thread about this in the General Gaming forum - they can go the http://multiverse.net/ route. They develop and administer it, but Multiverse would host it (with the associated hosting costs pulled out of the fees Multiverse collects for you of course).

Posted by: eralston May 11 2006, 07:54 PM

Wow. That Multiverse thing looks interesting.

Hmmmm, given that, maybe we should do something like just make a manapunk game and in case microsoft sluffs us off (certainly, leaving the fruits of our labor up to the same people who think their current SR game is anything relating to good would be a mistake).

In the very least, it reiterates that now is the time to think big and go for broke on developing a community MMORPG

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 11 2006, 09:20 PM

Multiverse is pretty good - though the tools are only in the alpha stage right now, nothing like crashing every 25 minutes when you're working on something.

That being said, I much prefer working on the new Torque engine.

TSE - Torque Shader Engine.

Granted its not a MMO engine, but it is a decendent of the Tribes2 engine so it has fairly robust multiplayer functionality.

Posted by: Ori0n May 11 2006, 09:26 PM

Like I've said originally, the main impetus of this project is something fun in the vain of Shadowrun. You have tons of medieval styled MMO's, all pretty much based on D&D in some vein, no matter how deep you may have to go.

So what should our story idea[s] be? I was going to base the demo off a game module, if I could find any of those little books of interest.

Should we start with archetypal characters? Or develop a character generation system.

How shall we go about designing the world?

Please toss out scenarios suggestions et all!


remember, stay low

Posted by: eralston May 11 2006, 09:33 PM

Isn't torque not free? (~150 a license, that's a bit much just for fun, extremely cheap for an actual engine)

We should develop our own set of mechanics derived from our preferred edition of SR and attempt to make a platform we could develop scenarios for endlessly.

The thread in the Shadowrun section showed that most people play Shadowrun to:

1) Interact with others
2) Assume a character

Aside from that, people enjoy carnage and the ability to cause it on others.

I would suggest that any serious conversation on features happen amongst only people who are going to help you. Random people are gonna just come crap on your thread otherwise

Posted by: mdynna May 11 2006, 09:42 PM

I agree with the suggestion to go the TSE route. The Torque engine is affordable for the private person and license-free. There is already a free MMO module (for the TGE) that can be plugged in that gives you a day/night cycle and random weather.

However, before you get your hopes up too much I'm pretty sure Microsoft has locked up the rights to Shadowrun for quite some time. Kind of ironic that they own the rights to make games based on this very rich IP, then choose to almost completely ignore when they actually do make a game.

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2006, 10:20 PM

If the engine used is free or someone wants to loan me $150 until I get a good job again I'll be happy to loan my 5 years experience in software to the project.

I'd suggest doing a manapunk game rather than trying to do a Shadowrun game. With straight manapunk you can work to avoid licensing issues fairly easily, and end up with something that just needs some name changes and maybe a few graphical modifications to become an actual Shadowrun game.

Posted by: Shadow May 11 2006, 10:49 PM

Well I still think the goal of any such project would be to prove how much you could do with what little you have. Then go to Microsoft and say "think what we could do with real backing."

Posted by: ismodred May 11 2006, 10:51 PM

I have designed levels for Doom, as well as 200 page pen and paper rpg.

Posted by: eralston May 11 2006, 11:08 PM

I think we're officially morphing toward making "Manapunk" instead of "SR".

At this point I would be embarassed to say to a gamer friend of mine "Yeah, that SR game for 360? Yeah, I play the P&P version of that"

Anyone wishes to throw their hat in, you should probably list your preferred field AND/OR expertise

Posted by: Shadow May 11 2006, 11:23 PM

Well if we go generic "Manapunk" how is it going to be like Shadowrun? Are we just going to change the names of everything?

Posted by: James McMurray May 11 2006, 11:40 PM

Software Engineer with 5 years C experience, plus php, perl, and a few others. I've also designed a lot of runs and adventure modules for various games, although I usually do better when I take somehting someone else already did and modify it.

Differences from SR:

1) Still have summoning, but summon creatures instead of spirits. Let it work in a similar manner. I'm no legal beagle, but using a system based on services shouldn't be a problem. Have a few limited services available. I wouldn't have aid sorcery type stuff because that's a very SR concept.

2) Different names for everything. No Panther Assault Cannons unless they actual exist in RL.

3) Something hs to be changed about sustained spells, unless there are other systems out there already that let you keep up spells but they require strain.

4) The Essence stat and it's interaction with magic is a very Sr concept. There should be a limit to how much cyberware you can hold, but it should use a different mechanism. Tying it to your Fortitude (or Constitution, or Body, or whatever it gets called) might be ok.

Similarities to SR:

1) Drain from spellcasting is an integral part of SR, but is not limited only to Shadowrun, so shouldn't be considered as stepping on any toes.

2) Based on a team infiltrating and/or assaulting stuff. Preferably the content we do should be soloable, as that makes it easier to test.

3) Most of the cyberware could be ported over. If we use refresh timers on things like gun firing and spellcasting, then initiative enhancers can be easily modeled as dropping a percentage of the delay on all timers. For example, Wired Reflexes 1-3 would each drop 25% off of the cycle time on all timers.

4) Tech and spellcasting shouldn't mix. But without an Essence stat something else would be needed. Perhaps an increase on damage taken when casting?

5) Use social skills. Giving the characters a chance to, for example, take a dead gaurd's uniform and use it as a disguise based on an actual disguise skill could be really sweet. Likewise, negotiation should modify all cash transactions. Etiquette should increase dialogue options and Fast talk (i.e. Con) would allow for new dialogue options. For Con, perhaps an option on everyone that lets you try to con them out of money, but they scream for the police if you fail. Also allowing Con to help you schmooze past gaurds instead of fighting them should be cool.

I'm still in the process of downloading Realmcrafter, and I may have some more ideas after I play around with it some.

Posted by: Ori0n May 11 2006, 11:57 PM

Wow, Thanks for all the input guys!

I'll be setting up a website this weekend with forums and blogs of its own that we can use in this project.

I deffinetly like all of your ideas and appreciate them very much.
Hopefully this can get started sooner than I thought.

Also I have found a bundle deal for RealmCrafter and Truespace,
I will most likely be investing in that before it runs out on May 18th.

Here's the link I was sent but it hasn't worked, maybe its just me

http://www.caligari.com/gamespace/career_rpg01.asp

Thanks again!

Posted by: James McMurray May 12 2006, 12:35 AM

How should the game handle death? If we just have the character respawn somewhere it completely loses the feeling of danger that should be inherent in a cyberpunk / manapunk setting. Unfortunately, having death be a permanent thing makes an MMORPG really hard to play for people that want to keep the same character for a while.

I'm thinking that repawning might be the only real option, but we could put a limit to it somehow. Perhaps a drawback to when you die. I've got an idea rolling around in my head and will post it if I get to a point where I think it's workable.

Edit: No, the link not working isn't just you. It appears to be a dead link.

Posted by: Shadow May 12 2006, 01:26 AM

I think a time penalty would be what I would want. But I also think death should be rare. It is on P&P.

Posted by: Ori0n May 12 2006, 01:28 AM

In plenty of other games you can be resurrected by party members, OR you can lose a % of XP and start at a pre-chosen destination in the current zone.

Yeah it's like other games, but its a good way to do it I believe...

but you could also use your "karma" or whatnot to keep from death

Posted by: James McMurray May 12 2006, 02:46 AM

I was thinking perhaps a Luck stat that would partially mimic Karma Pool / Edge. Have it apply to all rolls by adding x (depends on what mechanism is used for success tests). When you "die" you permanently burn luck to arrive in the hospital, and also lose cash to pay for your hospital bills. Luck can be raised via experience (see below).

One way to keep death from occuring frequently would be to have most things deal stun damage, presumably because of the armor you're wearing. Critical hits could deal normal damage, or perhaps that could be restricted to really high powered guns and spells. In either case though, when your stun meter is full (or stun hit points are gone) you fall unconscious. You wake up in the respawn section of whatever zone you're in.

For instance, if you're in the Renraku Arcology's mall (renamed of course) then you wake up in the security offices. Any illegal or offensive gear you have has been confiscated. You can talk to the gaurd on duty to get out. The easiest route would be to bribe him (modified by negotiation), but different levels of etiquette and con would open up different dialogue options to possibly get you out free. One interesting side quest might involve getting some dirt on the gaurd so whenever you're caught you can blackmail your way out for free.

Speaking of experience, we should definitely follow a level-less system where XP is spent as it's gained. It allows for more fluid advancement then the typical levelling up methods, and stays closer to SR.

Shadow: the relevant frequency of death depends on the PnP game's GM. If this is to be a MMORPG, PvP will be expected. PvP without death would turn a lot of people off on the game. And yeah, PvP in an SR game is a bad idea in my opinion, but to sell you sometimes have to cater to the masses. In an ideal world there would be a choice between PvP and non-PvP servers so everyone could be happy.

Posted by: JesterX May 12 2006, 03:03 AM

Here is my idea about death:

I think that death can be resolved with a Doc Wagon contract...!

You can purchase Doc Wagon contracts to get a certain number of free resurrections and respawn at an hospital. Of course, depending on what type of contract you have (Standard, Gold, Platinum), You might have to pay a certain fee in extra.

If you don't have a Doc Wagon contract, you can maybe respawn in an hospital and have a big penalty to your karma.

What do you think about this?

Posted by: eralston May 12 2006, 04:00 AM

I think handling death in with the "docWagon" paradigm would be pretty good. It would also be a good reason for some of the penalties imposed for dying in most MMOs

I don't quite believe I'm typing this, but...

I think we should seriously consider leaving Astral Space out of things as far as a traversable destination (so, leave it in, but Perception and Projection on the part of player characters should be evaluated based on the platform's ability to support it and the time/effort requirement of putting it in). I would be the first to say that an SR game NEEDS shadowrun, but if we, as amateurs, can back away from a potentially awful implementation problem by just excluding it form our universe for now, I'd be willing to say a Manapunk game doesn't NEED that part of shadowrun.

So, everyone posting here is going to message Ori0n and say what part of the project they would like to work on right?

Posted by: Laser May 12 2006, 04:51 AM

I'm having a bit of trouble understanding what you mean by including astral space without including perception or projection. Would it then just be something that is referred to?

Yeah, Docwagon contracts are a good idea. Make sure that they're available to starting players -- in MMOs player deaths often occur on a bathtub curve: a lot when they're new, a fairly steady amount in the middle, and more late in the game as they run out of ways to advance their character and seek to further advance their equipment by taking on bigger challenges. Inasmuch as Shadowrun/manapunk probably wouldn't have levels per se, there would be less ... hmm, "capability curve", I'd call it, to get over, but a similar trend would probably appear with regards to overall player experience.

Posted by: Shadow May 12 2006, 05:56 AM

I think the Doc Wagon is a great way to handle the thematics of death. When you die though there should be a time penalty, not money or karma, just time that you can't play the character. Call it healing time. You are free to play another character, just not the one who died.

Posted by: Laser May 12 2006, 06:05 AM

I'm not so sure about that. How much time are we talking about here? Most MMOs have some degree of player vs. player competition, and if the time limit is too long, the inevitable PKers and gankers will be really annoying.

Posted by: Dranem May 12 2006, 09:25 AM

Posted by: Shadow May 12 2006, 03:27 PM

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 12 2006, 03:45 PM

Posted by: James McMurray May 12 2006, 03:54 PM

An MMORPG without PvP capabilities will not sell. A game without advancement will not sell. Gamers these days like to learn new stuff and use it on other gamers.

Posted by: Shadow May 12 2006, 04:47 PM

Well thank gosh were not trying to make a game that sells. Lets make a game thats fun to play. The great thing about SR3 is that out of the box, starting character kick butt. I never really worry about advencement becasue it is the adventure that brings me back, not the need for more karma.

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 12 2006, 05:00 PM

Posted by: eralston May 12 2006, 05:42 PM

"Astral Space", or some place full of living energy where spirits live parallel to our own, could be used to explain how our spirits (or whatever) and magic are able to manifest in the real world. For instance, "The Weave" in Forgotten Realms is easily likened to Astral Space except there is no access to it (D&D does confuse this analogy by having spells that cause astral projection-like states, so don't over analyze my attempted relation).

I think we should pull together a team of writers to figure out the universe. Anyone interested, please PM me with a blurb on your "direction" with the fiction and your experience writing.

Other than those members, everyone else can mince about the world. I have a couple starter questions:

1) Do we want to be on earth? We could be in pretty much any fantasy universe, just fast forward to ultra-computers and cyberlimbs

2) What is the role of "metahumans"? (will we have them, what will they be, etc)

Posted by: Lagomorph May 12 2006, 06:07 PM

I'd be glad to help to this project, I've got 2 years C++. I'm a SDET by trade, so I can do dev work or testing work.

Posted by: Shadow May 12 2006, 06:45 PM

I was speaking with a co-worker about this and I had some great ideas.


1. Character starting should be nearly as strong as a character who has been on for a year.

2. Starting Gear should be just as good as veteran gear. I.E. A Colt Manhunter purchased by a newbie is just as good as one purchased by a experienced player.

3. Monsters, NPC's, and the like shoudl have a uniform stat like they do in the SR books. No "level 60's". Some monsters will be tougher than others (just like it is).

4. You should be able to do anything you want. Walk down the street and shoot NPC in the head. Great. But there will be in-game consequences (the star shows up and carts you off to prison and executes you).

Posted by: eralston May 12 2006, 06:51 PM

Yes, death as a penalty isn't nearly as good as prison. Though, I would always make it possible to break out of the prison if one just knew how, had enough cooperation from other PCs, and has gusto

I don't know if I can agree with the concept of extremely flat character advancement. I think it would be important to emphasize that in this game "power" isn't as important as "interaction". That has mostly stuff to do with how guns are amazingly equalizers than the concept of eliminating a level-driven system in favor of a skill-driven system.

I want an interaction-centric, skill-driven game where the biggest indicator of power level is "who you know, not what you know" and, naturally, what you have done.

Posted by: James McMurray May 12 2006, 06:57 PM

Posted by: Shadow May 12 2006, 07:11 PM

Posted by: eralston May 12 2006, 07:14 PM

Any other opinions?

I would actually say that I was attempting to imply that other races could be added as long as they had distinct advantages. Perhaps we could tap the metavariants. The easiest technique would be races that excelled by vocation so players might concentrate their abilities (which is pretty much the only mechanical reason for races).

Posted by: Shadow May 12 2006, 07:32 PM

I would like to see it as a tree. You make an elf, now you can play the elf sub types.

However, I think a limit should be put on how many are allowed. For instance, in Battlefront 2, only so many classes of the rarer characters are allowed. This helps and keeps people from all playing the jet pack guys.

Now say you have 200 players, and 150 make night elves, well thats just not realistic since night elves are the 1% of the 1%. So you would either need to allow limited Metavarients, or use them as rewards. I prefer the hard line and say limited.

The way to keep the first ten guys from making NE's and not letting anyone else play them would be that if you go so long without playing the character he becomes locked until such time as the server becomes balanced again.

Posted by: Laser May 12 2006, 07:56 PM

Posted by: Shadow May 12 2006, 08:21 PM

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 12 2006, 08:24 PM

Posted by: eralston May 12 2006, 08:28 PM

We cannot eliminate advancement and if you do not get better with time we will not get any long-lived characters which means no long-lived players. You also won't eliminate the unbalancing associated with panther assault cannons, some weapons are just better than others. Taking such a lemma to its extreme: why have unique characters at all if it threatens game balance?

I must agree that PvP can be fun. Gankers certainly prey upon its open availability, so it being possible while just walking around certainly blows. Suppose you were on a run. One player could be hired to defend a target while one person is hired to eliminate it. That would be a totally legitimate (and highly fun IMO) PvP situation.

Controlling populations by limiting classes and races seems like a good idea, but much like eugenics in the real world, people will ultimately just find it appalling. Such as in the rocketman scenario, there is no guarentee that every player will get a chance to play every type if the types are given away first-come-first-serve. You might pull something off with changing servers based on population, but that also cuts out a big deal of community building associated with people having "home servers" for a group of friends.

One possibly workable solution would be to control the demand for types instead of the supply. If a server is overrun with elven mages, start stressing the jobs elven mages cannot accomplish.

An interesting supply-side solution would be instilling racism in the NPCs. For instance, in the real world bigotry crops up when a single minority is seen as growing in the face of the majority. If you are overrun with Elves all those human NPCs might be worred about the elves "takin' our jobs!"

That's a little hard to implement, because it involves kind of low-level content manipulation, but if it were built-in from the start it would be a hilarious occurence for NPCs to stage a riot against the PCs on a server to punish the players for glomming onto a type.

Posted by: Ori0n May 12 2006, 09:21 PM

You gys are absolutley great. I love all the ideas and I can't wait to figure out how to implement all these ideas.

Once I get a forum setup this weekend in which we can have these ideas develop into a plan, I think things will start to move along nicely.


With races, perhaps you have to have another, more popular character go and say, do a run in their area of origin, and a reward for completing that mission is unlocking that character type.

Prison is a far far better idea than death, but death should still be an option, I mean.. you get hit in the chest with 150 rounds from a minigun, and wake up in jail? hahaha, it'd be nice, but still. Unless we make it where your stamina runs out after a while and your hauled off.

Thanks! Please Discuss more..

remember, stay low

Posted by: eralston May 12 2006, 09:31 PM

You know, every time I read your sig Orion, I think of a gunfight involving the limbo

Creative teams are being organized while our centralization is coming into place (Orion's current project).

The groups we know we'll have:

Game World (Universe Builders)
Game Mechanics (rule writers)
Concept Art (No on has chimed in on this one, is this going to be a scarce resource?)
Tech Prototypes (This is a group that will work with the platform, probably with Orion, to make sure Realm Crafter is what we want. anyone objecting to Realm Crafter will need to go through whoever ends up in this group. Also, once we have our platform, they'll work on some prototype solutions to see what we can pull of in the engine and what we can pull off with our available talent)

as I have said before, if you want a position, apply by asking, otherwise respondents to this thread will be assigned and wheedled into groups by choice of the group leads.

Posted by: James McMurray May 13 2006, 01:58 AM

I'd like to lend a hand with game mechanics and/or tech prototyping. I could do cocnept art, but we'd end up with stick figures.

Posted by: JesterX May 13 2006, 04:21 PM

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 13 2006, 04:40 PM

Posted by: eralston May 13 2006, 05:04 PM

Hey Jack, you keep coming back, did you want to help?

Should I PM you or would you like to just post your preferred choices for dev team?

What is the exact difference between CORPG and MMORPG? Like, defining characteristic of each

Posted by: JesterX May 13 2006, 05:16 PM

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 13 2006, 06:04 PM

Posted by: eralston May 13 2006, 06:27 PM

So, anyone know any SR-style artists? We only have 1 person in that department right now

So MMORPGs are just everyone all at once while CORPGs center on the idea of just offering a means to pick up a party and play a game?

Posted by: Shadow May 13 2006, 07:42 PM

I think the problem of "camping a dungeon" to get an item is easily eliminated. No hot uber items, no static spawns. No newbie zones where you kill everything in sight to get xp. The only time you would use your gun would be on your mission, even then you might not need it. Certain kinds of missions should be instanced based though (like extractions) while others can take place in popular locales.

Posted by: eralston May 13 2006, 08:21 PM

I can agree with some of that. On a run w/o the good fortune of working for PvP, instancing could be useful. Especially if we pushed a bit of plot into the works with NPCs looking to interact in-depth with a single character in a semi-dramatic fashion. It might kill the love connection for some bloke to just come walking up and ask if you want to party with him.

Posted by: Shadow May 13 2006, 08:37 PM

We should throw out every single current MMO convention. When you get on to play Shadowrun, you are getting on with your RL friends to run as a team. Or taking solo missions. The only time random parties would form would be when a Johnson (player or NPC) put out a call for a meating at a set time and place. Then the Runners would meet eachother, have a few minutes to talk and be given a job.

If I hear |200 Karma Sam LFP, VILLERS| I will shoot myself.

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 13 2006, 08:48 PM

Posted by: Shadow May 13 2006, 08:55 PM

Exactly, if no one us uber than they will be a helluva lot more polite.

Posted by: eralston May 13 2006, 09:22 PM

I agree, but really as a concurrent opinion:

I think we should look at us as having no conventions like other MMOs because we are not really bound to any of them. We should shoot for originality by choosing what conventions to use in addition to our own instead of just assuming we're going to make WoW with computers in it

PS Still need concept artists

Posted by: warrior_allanon May 14 2006, 02:02 AM

i can do character building in both 3ed and 4ed rulesets for you just tell me what NPC's and archtypes you want and i can hand generate them. Hell i might already have some made. I can also do conversions for the NPC's from all the sourcebooks and adventures, because i have all the old ones in one way or another

Posted by: JesterX May 14 2006, 02:20 AM

One of the thing I like the most about Shadowrun is the way the game is played...

A run usually have those phases:

- The Meeting : You meet your Mr. Johnson, you negotiate, set things straight

- Legwork : You invest some time and money with your contacts, matrix and other ways to collect informations both about your boss and about the target of the run. You aquire floor plans, you conduct astral investigations... That's my favorite part about Shadowrun

- The Run : You act. The fast paced part of a game.

- Wrap-up : You see the conclusion of your actions, what will it change to the world? Will it influence some corporate moves against another corporation? Do you gain reputation?

- Upkeep : You try to pay your expenses and try to keep SOTA, some months are really hard... sometime it's easier. If you neglect your contacts, you may lose their friendship.

...

Then I wonder, beside the Meeting and Run part, Will it be possible to do the other phases?

For sure, when completing a quest, you can do a small wrapup of what happens afterwise... but how does it influence the game world on a large scale?

My knowledge of other MMORPG is somewhat limited... How do other games handle this?

Posted by: Shadow May 14 2006, 02:57 AM

They don't. There will be no quests. Remember that character advancement will not be the focus of the game.

Posted by: Mister Juan May 14 2006, 03:11 AM

Hey everyone. I know I might be a little late in the game (I just read the whole topic) but I just wanted to say you've got an awesome project going. I don't know what I could do to help, but I'd be glad to.

Posted by: JesterX May 14 2006, 03:48 AM

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 14 2006, 04:18 AM

Posted by: James McMurray May 14 2006, 04:32 AM

Has it already been determined that there will be no character advancement? If so, please count me out.

One of the joys I get from playing a game is watching my character get better at the things he does, and learn how to do new things. I want to learn to shoot better, talk people into things easier, and get new and cooler toys. It doesn't have to be vast amounts of improvement, but the idea that a veteran of the shadows is only mildly more competent than a newbie doesn't fit my idea of how the shadowrun world (or even this one) works.

Posted by: Ori0n May 14 2006, 04:35 AM

No character advancement totally goes against any of the fun.
How can you have harder runs without being stronger?

Longer runs too.

In SR as in life, as you do things more, the better you are at them.
As well be in this

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 14 2006, 04:46 AM

Posted by: eralston May 14 2006, 04:46 AM

No single opinion submitted in this forum represents a mandate upon which the game will be built. Everyone is encouraged to express their views, but they are only views (I don't think anyone is under illusions).

I would actually say that the whole discussion of character advancement has come to a simmer around whether or not it is the focus of the game. I must remind everyone that one thing rather decided is against LEVELING not against ADVANCEMENT. We want a skill-centric game (such as SR) instead of a level-centric game (such as D&D). I guess I can take back what I said about only views on this, it is pretty much the only foundation for imminent game system. First thing for the mechanics team will be creating a skill system people can spend hours manipulating and exploring through the game. That will be a real challenge

Posted by: warrior_allanon May 14 2006, 05:05 AM

(Cringes as he says this) maybe some of you should look at D&D online in how they do their character advancement and quests. maybe mix something from that with a rippoff of GTA3 i'm a decent concept guy, the doing is where i fall through.

Posted by: Ori0n May 14 2006, 05:08 AM

I really wish we could translate the game mechanics 1:1, but that'd be very hard to do without licensing bliggity blah. I would just like to make it as absolutley close as possible.

So you'd be able to take a run from P&P, and go play it in this game, and at the least feel no loss of fun, and hopefully a great deal of extra adventure

Posted by: Shadow May 14 2006, 05:15 AM

Then the focus will be on skill advancement, and you will have EQ in the future. You should have all the skills that SR has, plus the extras it it needs, but like SR the skills ou start the game with are the ones you pretty much have for the life of the character. Your starting load out will be vital. Advancement cannot be the reason for playing the game, other wise your just making Wow.

Posted by: James McMurray May 14 2006, 05:25 AM

Advancement isn't a reason to make a game, it's a tool within that game to satisfy the primary reason: creating something enjoyable. I'd like a system very close to Shadowrun's own: doing stuff nets you experience points (we can't really call it Karma, but the two are practically identical). You then spend those experience points to increase attributes, skills, get new spells, etc. an increasing price like SR's should also be used, although the exact multipliers might need some tweaking just to skirt the rim of legality. Example:

Speaking of legality, do we have anyone here with law experience? It'd be great to be able to skate the line as close as we can, but without someone qualified enough to show us where that line is we'll need to stay as far away from it as we can and still have a manapunk game based on running the shadows.

Posted by: eralston May 14 2006, 06:02 AM

Intellectual Property litigation is pretty much the only way of ensuring companies such as WK make money. We're probably already crossing some line by discussing this on their own forum.

Keep in mind that we are "inspired" by shadowrun, not attempting to make a generic version.

If we name too many skills, attributes, or concepts the same or use them in the same way as SR we will be exposing ourselves far too much to ever hope to make money (which is part of what leant us to making a Manapunk game instead of SR). I would stress to prospective members of both the World and Game Mechanic design to forget SR and just focus on treatments of the idea of cyberpunk+magic.

Anyone seriously suggesting any partial ripping off of SR or any other MMO title should drop from the project, it'll just bite us in the ass later.

Posted by: Dranem May 14 2006, 06:09 AM

Posted by: James McMurray May 14 2006, 06:16 AM

That almost definitely will not happen. For Fanpro/Wizkids to give any input into this game, especially things that will make it more canon, would be stepping on FASA Studios's license. I would be surprised if we ever got more than a passing opinion (i.e. "I like it" or "It sucks"). Going much deeper than that could result in legal troubles for FP and WK.

It should be pretty easy to get something incredibly close without tredding on toes. If we abandon the d6 system, rename the skills we don't drop, add skills, and geenrally avoid any and all references to SR material we should be ok. Of course, all that leaves for us to do is the flavor of SR, but that's as it should be.

Posted by: Dranem May 14 2006, 06:19 AM

Posted by: Dranem May 14 2006, 06:22 AM

Posted by: eralston May 14 2006, 06:26 AM

BTW, if we find ~2 concept artists, we could break into teams and start development tasks as soon as this week. Everyone's asking their highly artistic friends right?

I can agree with the "NPCs are not gelatinous bags of experience" comment, especially when such a system would make Johnson double crossing really profitable (he could pay you for the mission with money and XP then you could shoot him and get money and XP).

Try to think of other resources to advance as well, such as reputation amongst entities in the game.

I might be off my rocker because it's so late, but could I bring up one issue with this death we haven't talked about? What if it was within the power of magic to bring people back from the dead? Since we're writing our own universe, why not put in something about divine magic and an afterlife system? It would be within our power as designers to even go as complex as a deity system so why have we dismissed ressurection out of hand? As anti-SR as that sounds, it's a very utlitarian answer to a very sticky issue

Posted by: Shadow May 14 2006, 07:53 AM

I had an idea about reputation. Lets call it Heat and Criminalocity. Heat is generated by doing things that are illegal. It is a temporary stat that goes down over time. Criminalocity is point based. You get points for completing missions (well). However, if your heat goes up you start losing Criminalocity points. The higher your Heat, the lower your Criminalocity.

So do a mission well, don't generate a lot of Heat, and you get a high Criminalociuty. Now you can demand a higher paycheck from the johnsons, have some street cred and generally are a good criminal.

Walk around shooting people, do missions with a high body count, Heat goes up, criminalocity goes down. Now you can't demand a lot of money, so you get the low end jobs.

Now if your Heat goes to high you get activly persued by the police etc. Anyways it was an idea I had and I wanted to get it out there.

As for the IP stuff, as long as we don't use any copywriten material we are okay. We can use all the stats, skills, etc we want. But we can't call it Shadowrun, or the bosses Johnsons, ets.

Posted by: eralston May 14 2006, 08:17 AM

I like the direction, but I think it needs some finer granularity. "Heat" with Knight Errant would be different than "Heat" with Lone Star, etc

It's not a bad idea, I think it should track individually for each entity (all the crops, mafia, yakuza, maybe gangs, etc). Heat should also be a more general team for "pisses off in the short term" since tweaking a mobster doesn't get you in trouble because it's illegal so much that it's just a bad idea.

I would take it one step higher and say that, under such a system, a constant increase in social cred with a single organization could allow you access to missions/services not normally available. Perhaps even allow you to "join". That would allow quite a bit of freedom. For instance, if you puckered up to Ares long enough, they might hire you full-time for anti-runner security (or, given dangerous freedom) lame wage-slavery.

PS I think "reputation" or "street cred" might ring more bells than "criminalocity"

Posted by: Shadow May 14 2006, 08:35 AM

Yeah, Criminalocity was just the word I came up with to explain it.

Posted by: Laser May 14 2006, 08:55 AM

Not to cause any uncomfortable parallels here, but this concept of heat sounds a lot like faction from World of Warcraft. Too low, and members of the group attack on sight. High enough and they give you stuff, cut you deals, that sort of thing. We would, of course, have to work on how it gets changed, since we're looking for more of a short-term effect that can decrease slowly over time (depending on the group. Some have an elephantine memory for slights against them).

Posted by: eralston May 14 2006, 09:10 AM

Well, the "heat" mechanic and the "reputation" mechanic would probably differ in that "heat" could only go negative and "reputation" could go either way. One angle I'd like to take is that reputation is core to the advancement of characters as far as opening up "higher level" tasks and runs. It attacks the "I must pwn things to advance" idealogy we all seem to hate. It would make it so one must be judged loyal and capable enough to perform a task, as it would be in the shadows. I certainly wouldn't hire a loose cannon for my important job even if he could kill a green dragon by himself.

Just reputation (without any "heat") might be enough if its behaviour was defined to spike at certain actions then slowly settle down over time (not unlike gas prices. Sudden changes that shock people then roll back to a "comforatble" levels ultimately leading to a net change). Reputation lending to a "live" nature to the game, especially concerning consequences would be important social regulation.

Posted by: JesterX May 14 2006, 01:54 PM

Posted by: JesterX May 14 2006, 01:56 PM

Posted by: Ori0n May 14 2006, 03:48 PM

Shadow, that Idea about Heat and Criminalocity, is brilliant.
It sounds like a perfect way to handle things.

Also instead of Karma, perhaps, as lame as it might sound, we could go with Luck. Or something else like that. Your Luck randomly comes into play during, a shootout, and, say a snipers shot bounces off your sunglasses or something.

But seriously, you guys all have great ideas, and I think this is starting to shape up really well.

Our own skill names, weapon names, dunno if Location could be considered. I mean Seattle is a great game setting.

Posted by: Ori0n May 14 2006, 05:33 PM

I am currently setting up Noth.slyhost.be as the "official" discussion site for this. As long as I can figure out how to set all this up on a Content management system. But I don't think it'll be hard.

It's got user login, boards, and other stuff

=======================
Edit
=======================

Well that didn't work. I've never been all that great with designing websites.

Can anyone help me, or point me in the direction, of setting up a website in which we can have our own forums, a place to share files, user logins etc?

Thanks

Posted by: eralston May 14 2006, 06:15 PM

I checked that site and I regretably failed the "sanity check". The instructions weren't terribly helpful, but on the other hand I didn't try too hard.

I would actually really support a luck attribute for the purposes of just giving wiggle room for how frequently bullets are hitting people. High luck people would be more likely to dodge than just purely athletic people, bladdy blah I think this also lends to the conclusion that everything I learned about RPG design can be traced back to Fallout


So, I was thinking it would be cool if our tradeskill system (hate to be so directly comparing to another MMO, but in this case) could allow for things such as contact-like occupations. I did some development on the idea in the last project. Basically, it would allow you to establish yourself as skilled in a specific area of expertise instead of a general purpose shadowrunner. Example occupations would include:

Talismonger
Street Doc
Fixer

Basically, one could achieve this through a secondary skill system (such as knowledge skills) and adjudicating a player's occupation based on their actions and their expertise.

That could lead to elven mages who are talismongers or alternatives to that such a paranormal animal experts, or deckers who can specialize in making programs or making decks. There could also possiblby be odd crosses, such as a mundane paranormal animal expert and riggers who are gunsmiths or something.

Posted by: James McMurray May 14 2006, 08:57 PM

Luck as an attribute should apply to everything. So if you've got a 10 luck stat you've got +10 to all activities, etc. It should be harder to up than skills or other attributes though, because of how pervasive it is.

Posted by: Smilin_Jack May 14 2006, 10:59 PM

Posted by: James McMurray May 14 2006, 11:39 PM

www.bytehost10.com looks ok. It's one of the few free webhosting sites I've found with PHP and mySQL support, which could come in handy for problem tracking later.

Posted by: Shadow May 14 2006, 11:40 PM

I have my own domain, so I made a sub-domain called

http://manapunk.shadowgames.us

I can have a good invision style forum up on it pretty quick.

Posted by: James McMurray May 14 2006, 11:42 PM

Do you have MySQL and Perl support? If so, and you've got access to the server itself or can have them run a few short scripts for you, I've got a fairly decent problem report and task tracker I can dig out and we can use. Once we get to that point of course.

Posted by: Shadow May 14 2006, 11:51 PM

I belive it has both. And they are very good about running scripts for us.

Posted by: Shadow May 15 2006, 01:44 AM

The manapunk official forum is up!

http://manapunk.shadowgames.us/forums

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 02:05 AM

It's working, but the formatting went insane after I posted a reply, and I'm getting a parse error:

Parse error: syntax error, unexpected '}' in /home/shadowga/www/manapunk/forums/includes/template.php(127) : eval()'d code on line 25

Posted by: Shadow May 15 2006, 02:10 AM

Yeah it is a work in progress. It is viewable right now.

We are customizing it and working on a logo and such.

Posted by: James McMurray May 15 2006, 02:16 AM

No prob.

Posted by: Ori0n May 15 2006, 02:46 AM

Thanks again all you guys!.

I was trying to use the Exponent CMS [www.exponentcms.org] it seems really nice.

Update::
I have 2 artists, they are local friends of mine.
I'm trying to get them up on the forums.

Posted by: Dranem May 15 2006, 03:53 AM

What kind of design software have we decided on yet?

So I can start working on some sample art. I could start designing the environment, vehicles, maybe drones.. maybe even some character art - though I don't do that much freehand drawing these days..

Posted by: Ori0n May 15 2006, 03:56 AM

Dranem:
I'm pushing for RealmCrafter and gameSpace, and some 3rd party plugins from gameSpace [level editors and such].

But that is only because those are what I've seen, and they seem to be really good.

Btw:
Official Game Forum is:
http://manapunk.shadowgames.us/forums/index.php

Posted by: Kagetenshi May 20 2006, 06:40 PM

Posted by: Shadow May 20 2006, 07:43 PM

This is what I said. But the choice I think has been made to not use SR3 game mechanics. Sadly.