Printable Version of Topic

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 15 2007, 10:00 AM

As I de-evolve back into SR3, I come to the realization that nothing 'new' will come out for the game I love most. Not that it's a terrible thing, I think SR3 was at near-perfection for a game. However, there is always room for improvement and I was thinking of publishing freely a SOTA:2065 which would include the Augmented Reality aspects of SR4.

I was curious if anyone had any desire to help, or advice to give, or even quotable quotes from their characters on the releases. Here's the plan so far (not set in stone, just a plan).

A chapter on Augmented Reality and new gear to allow things to be made wireless. In addition new rules to change the concealability ratings of electronic gear. Making 2065 a much more wireless and micro-managed in sizes year.

A chapter on Magic, a chance to not only implement the revised BP system for character creation (somehow I have to get a DocFunkenstien quote or 10 in that chapter, since he was the originator of the idea), but to expand on alot of the less known magics like the Paths of Wheel, Psionics, Druidism, Nordic Rune Magic and Voodoo. Giving rules for un-ruled stuff such as Greater Thought Forms or Summoning Zombies.

A chapter on new Spirits with focus on Aztlan and Denver (primarily GhostWalker, the supposed biggest expert on spirits). As well as an introduction to Draconians, and their creation.

A first-glimpse at a Horror, though I refuse to do anything with Horrors without AncientHistory's assistance. Not sure I could do it justice without his expertise to support it. Obviously it's far too early in the cycle for Horrors to appear, I'm thinking a single entity that battles it out with a Greater Dragon, and perhaps wreaking great havoc in the progress. Not something that has numbers and can be fought by players, just something to give mankind a jolt as they realize the sorts of things that are 'out there'. Maybe turn some of California Free State into wasteland in the process....

Also, something I've been wanting to see for awhile, some pre-fab characters like in the original SR3 book, but using gear and ideas from all the books (Changeling, Bioware, Etc)

The most important thing about this project, should anyone be interested in helping, is that it should not be a re-write of any existing rules. Only modifications. So although there are some rules we may not like, such as the concealabilities of items (since this is something that will be addressed), the rules shouldn't change, but options should be added. Example, the concealability can be lowered by raising the costs of the items or creating new items that start with a lower availability (Ie: No Pocket Secretary is needed anymore if the AR is done correctly)

If anyone's interested in donating material, please post here. If you're interested in helpign actually write chapters, message me and I'll give you a direct link to the PDF as it develops.

If anyone can do mega-fantastic art, I could become your best friend very fast. Mostly though I'm thinking of using photos that are highly editted to appear as art.

Posted by: mfb Jan 15 2007, 10:26 AM

i wrote some stuff that i was going to submit to the actual SOTA:65 book.

http://www.shadowland.org/Shadowland/21/objects/page1971.html, including stuff that allows for combining rigging and decking more easily, including decking through a drone network and controlling drones across the Matrix.

a http://www.shadowland.org/Shadowland/21/objects/page1803.html that makes validating a false account no longer an i-win button.

http://www.shadowland.org/Shadowland/21/objects/page1768.html that give deckers more realistic abilities when it comes to controlling hosts.

http://www.shadowland.org/Shadowland/21/objects/page1767.html, which basically give your deck new abilities when you go into one of the various modes.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 15 2007, 01:21 PM

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 15 2007, 01:46 PM

SR3R? Gotta a link?

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 15 2007, 02:32 PM

Posted by: mfb Jan 15 2007, 07:15 PM

thanks. though now that i look back at them, i realize they're badly in need of proofreading, playtesting, and explaining.

anybody who wants to use 'em is welcome.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 15 2007, 08:07 PM

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 15 2007, 09:30 PM

But.... that link's dead. O.o Is it still a work in progress? And will it encompass a complete re-write of the book? I'm talking about creating an actual book-like pdf with a unique cover art, and a professional appearance when I talk about the SOTA:65. Aside from the fact it won't be in stores, it'll seem an official book in appearance. Also, an SR3R would seem more intended for re-doing the basic things, not the add-ons which is what SOTA's entail. I don't mind working with people on SR3R if it's active, or working the SOTA:65 to fit it, but I am talking about a seemingly professional continuation of the SR3 system. I have alot of -good- art friends on DeviantArt that I can get free art from as long as I use it for a non-profit cause, and I make professional PDFs for a living.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 15 2007, 10:02 PM

The link's dead for you? What URL does it give you?

For copyright reasons, since we're not changing everything, we probably wouldn't be creating a book like you describe (though if I get around to learning the PDF spec, I might create a diff that an end user could use to edit their own copy of an SR3 PDF—though that carries with it all kinds of difficulties that will probably make it unfeasible). SR3R is definitely an active project, though it's moving slowly because my schedule got a lot busier.

Anyway, completely separately from this proposal, I'd encourage you to take a look at and comment on the various proposals making up SR3R.

~J

Posted by: Drraagh Jan 16 2007, 12:10 AM

Posted by: SL James Jan 16 2007, 02:07 AM

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 16 2007, 08:25 AM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 16 2007, 11:48 AM

Oh, right. Yeah, like I said, busier schedule x.x

(I could have sworn you'd commented on it, but since you didn't recognize the name… assumptions, assumptions)

Response Soonâ„¢

~J

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 16 2007, 06:21 PM

...this project is of interest.

Until the bomb was literally dropped by FanPro, I was gearing up for a new campaign that was going to push the tech envelope and move SR into the next frontier - Space.

I have a comprehensive listing of vehicles, aircraft, new armour, New Bioware (including a prototype of what is now the skinlink option in SR4 but much slicker) and even space systems like SSTO spaceplanes, Lunar transit vehicles, maneuver sleds and MMUs (like the ones NASA developed). I also had a large L5 type station (owned by a consortium) and installations on & under the Lunar Surface. With this, I resurrected fluff portions my old Neo Anarchist's Guide to Real Space that I was working up in the SR2 days to add to the info from Target Wastelands.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 16 2007, 06:40 PM

Well, I think there is more than sufficient difference between an SR3R and a SOTA:65 to have them as seperate projects. If you're interested, anyone, in helping out or just donating ideas, my email is sphynx01@gmail.com

Let me know what 'name' you want in the Credits if your material is used.

Posted by: Lindt Jan 16 2007, 06:53 PM

I wouldn't mind working on a few of your pre-fab characters, or some interesting quotes (one of my players keeps pretty good notes).

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 16 2007, 07:03 PM

Posted by: Chance359 Jan 17 2007, 12:18 AM

I would also be interested in putting together a few pregen characters.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 17 2007, 08:25 AM

Note on the pre-fabs, each of the characters will include something from the SOTA:65 new stuff. Wireless Decker, Psionicist, Draconian, Nordic Shaman, etc. Pretty much, anytime we give an example in the book, I'm aiming to use a character we create so that people can look at the sheet and the example at the same time to resolve questions they might have. They'll also be non-minmaxxed, so no Synap-2/Boosted-1 in a Geasa'd magically active character. No Trauma Dampener in a spell slinger. No muscle toner/aug combo in an Adept, etc.

Pont being, if you wanna make a Nordic Shaman, might be a good idea to propose Runic Magic ideas for the book.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 17 2007, 09:49 AM

FYI, here is a preliminary idea for the cover art. I still need to do my own State of the Art: text, but it'll give you a general idea, in addition to letting you see that I mean it when I say I want to create a very professional looking pdf in the process. I'm not sure if we should give it a number, or if we should include the FanPro/WhizKids logo, but I do know for legal reasons we'll have to include a disclaimer on the inside and back cover. Sadly, we'll probably also have to include the word UnOfficial on the main cover, but I'll worry about that when I create my own State of the Art: text, maybe a cursive diagonal top-left corner bit of text to it.

http://www.i-sphynx.com/Shadowrun/SOTA2065/CoverArt.jpg

Posted by: Trigger Jan 17 2007, 09:57 AM

I really like this cover.....I have actually been thinking on doing something for this since I have been reading this thread and I may send in a couple of sketches fro you to check out.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 17 2007, 01:41 PM

You should not include the logo. I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, but keeping you from doing that is exactly what trademarks exist for, and I can't imagine them giving you permission to use it.

~J

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 17 2007, 02:22 PM

I'd be eager to do some art, preferably black and white pen sketches, maybe some logo's if I get my hands on a copy of Illustrator. If you have a piece of gear, tech, wiz, character or concept you want to include a drawing of (hey! Just like in the shadowrun books!) I'm more than happy to draw it to your specifications.

Also, how about cigarettes? I know the SOTA books have fun fluff content as well. Smoking in the Sixth world, complete with descriptions of the competing brands, and rules for addiction and smoking, perhaps not along the lines of the other drug addiction rules of "ok looks like you're dead".

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 17 2007, 03:46 PM

Psycho, that'd be great. Wireless tech art is a must. The cover art shown isn't the one I'll use, I just put some stuff I found on the web together to give me an idea. I'll duplicate the work using my own art, that's just the color I'm wanting, and general style. Creating a background might be difficult, but I will use a 'tech/schematic' style image as done here and in other SR books. The digitalized face on a double-layer image (since most of the book should be on going wireless) is my favorite idea so far, but that's not set in stone. Our first project should be the Wireless chapter, that will fuel the imagination a bit more for the imagery.

Tonight I'll go through mfb's work and see what we can use. I think though that our first step should be a device to allow anyone to be wireless which replaces the Pocket Secretary, and rules about 0-MPCP and their effect on trying to hack (making the everyone-wireless unable to hack a nearby drone, for example). I don't think anything -decker- should be wireless yet.

Also, we using microwave, like today's cell phones? Or making something up?

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 17 2007, 04:18 PM

...for interior art, I would also tap Squinky on on the shoulder. He's doing some damn fine stuff these days check his "Sticky" & Shadowrun Missions.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 18 2007, 12:07 AM

I'm not sure the wireless chapter should be the first just because it'll be complex and daunting to flip onto page 5 with.

Does it include rules for piloting and/or sitting in the captains chair completely through the matrix and without a vehicle control rig? possibly like a control slave operation? Sort of like the drones are a part of the security system, and the vcr is integrated into the hardware of the security host.

I always thought it was silly that a corp decker and corp security rigger did different things. I think when it comes to site security they should overlap, the rigger can not only view through the cameras and turrets, he can also control the drones, and his advantage is that he can be mobile on site while performing his tasks, or the decker can do the same thing through the security host, but also can repel matrix intrusions and guard files.

edit: Also, I was thinking of including a new vision mode for goggles and cybereyes. Electromagnetic vision adds a whole new spectrum to our vision, we can see any tech that is currently operating. That spy hiding in the darkened corner may have 6 levels of thermal dampening on his form fitting armour, but his cybereyes running thermographic, imagelink, retinal clock and opticam are glowing like the sun. We'd have to come up with some specific rules of course, and I'm open to suggestion.

Posted by: mfb Jan 18 2007, 05:28 AM

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 18 2007, 08:22 AM

Sir_Psycho, it won't be the first chapter in the book, but as the most important chapter of the book I want to work on it first. I think the BP system (Magic and resources) will be the first chapter.

MFB: I think the 'logging' rules are imperative to the book. But alot of questions on the other stuff. You want a discussion on it here? New (or old existing) thread? Emails? One of the things I think are definitely needed to the logging rules is the +8's. Much too high of a number there. Maybe instead, use the intruding decker's Evasion rating?

Psycho: Main objective of the Gone Wireless chapter is to put the average person in a wireless setting. The Logging and Decking/Rigging merge stuff should go in a seperate chapter, Advanced Technical Training.

Gone Wireless Chapter: We need a device that can interact with the wireless world. It should have a roller/buttons on one side that let you switch between different Networks in your area. If you walk into a mall, and are bombarded with 20 wireless networks, a way of seeing that on a list (glasses or ImageLink). A touchpad to select things in your menu once you've selected a network. Etc. It'd be a PocketSecretary, Music Downloader/Player, Etc all in one.

Decisions we need to make. What all this device can do. Storage space it has. Costs for different 'levels' of it. What it can NOT do (Decking/Rigging). Artistic representations of different versions. What corps make it, and which corp is the 'world leader' in its design/creation. Devices that go along with it (ImageGlasses, Earbuds, etc). Accessories that can be attached to it (Transducer, Microtransciever, GPS) and their costs. And most importantly, how it helps Shadowrunners who aren't Deckers/Riggers.

As the years progress, we should create a design template to determine a way to get the Wireless of 2065 to the SR4 Wireless of 2070 so that we can include upgrades in our 2066, 2067, 2068, and 2069 to approach the 2070 level.

Ideas/Comments?

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 18 2007, 02:31 PM

Ideas? Thoughts? Well first of all, we shouldn't include Augmented Reality yet. That could come in '67 or something.

Off the top of my head are three variations. One is basicly a PDA or laptop with a screen that while it can do all the standard holding notes, images, phone numbers, etc. As a piece of wiz with wireless connectivity, it receives information from the services around it. Pop-up advertisements and special offers are common on most of the bandwidths, usually relevant to where you're standing. You can request maps of the area (eg. a shopping mall), basic directions, streaming music/video, etc. Sound can either be projected from the device's speakers, or through plugged in headplugs

The second version I think of does not have a screen at all, but plugs (wirelessly or via cable) into a set of glasses/goggles (with earplugs attaching to your ears via the "wings" of the glasses frame. This would throw up a holographic projection onto the goggles, providing all the same information, services, communication and annoyances (pop up ads) as the PDA version, but is in the easy form of glasses. The actual broadcasting/receiving unit that the glasses plug into would consist of a scroll wheel and two buttons, and would fit in a sort of small handle shape, with the wheel accessble by the thumb, and the buttons in the trigger position. The wheel would be for scrolling through subnetworks, pictures, text and other options. The buttons would be a simple select/enter/yes button and a clear display/no/off button.

The final version would be cyber, and would do all the aforementioned tasks, but be controlled through DNI and viewed through an image/display link.

This device should also have an address, sort of like an email/phone number. PDA's that share eachothers addresses and are on the same wireless node pop up on a subscriber list, and can share files, have a free instant messaging system, and work the same as a radio between subscribers aswell, including conference ability.

One of the coolest things is, the local nodes are accessible by jackpoint (illegal without advertising/maintenance permits) and can be used by deckers for slightly less-than-conventional means, such as:
"Ok our contact's address just hit the network, he's browsing through the maria mercurial classics catalog it seems... oh by the way, I've got his GPS down, and Ok, he's inbetween the MCT megamart and the dunkin' doughnuts vendor. request visual confirmation. Affirmative. Ok he's making the call, it's encrypted, you'll have to get within eavesdropping range while I work on the encryption."

PS. I've also got a nice idea for an illustration of this basic tech in action in PDA/Goggle and vislink form.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 18 2007, 02:34 PM

AR is already out, and has been since SR1. What do you think smartlinks are? Imagelinks?

Anyway, the way I handle the pocket secretary replacement is to declare that the pocket secretary has the equivalent of a cell phone data plan. Simple and easy.

~J

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 18 2007, 02:35 PM

By AR I am referring to it in the SR4 Sense, of AR objects visible based on the wireless matrix.

Edit: If I'm not making much sense, I'm sorry, I'm a little drunk.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 18 2007, 02:44 PM

Well, my initial thoughts are visible if you want to see http://i-sphynx.com/Shadowrun/SOTA2065/Wireless.pdf.

I've been too busy trying to build graphics for the pages (each page has a graphic on top of some monitors with a somewhat relevant picture in a monitor, and each chapter starts with a larger 3-monitor networking image), so if anyone wants to edit that pdf a bit, lemme know.

Posted by: mfb Jan 18 2007, 05:32 PM

Posted by: Fortune Jan 18 2007, 08:33 PM

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 19 2007, 02:02 PM

Anyway, are we going to have some Shadowtalk in this book? It'd be interesting if we opened up the "finished" product some forum members and allow them to chip in some in character Shadowtalk, and we could cull it as SysOps, choosing the best comments/dialogues.

And we don't use any of the established shadow posters, because as it is, SOTA:65 is a copyright disaster waiting to happen.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 19 2007, 03:37 PM

Yes, of course. Shadowtalk is a requirement. I was actually thinking of going extreme on the shadowtalk a bit. What do you think of replacing Captain Chaos with someone like Pax for who is creating this Node/Book?

More importantly though, really need someone to work on the story part. Not the actual ShadowTalk, but the dialogue/monologue that the ShadowTalk breaks into.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 20 2007, 01:16 AM

I don't get exactly what you mean by story. Can you be specific?

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2007, 02:49 AM

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 20 2007, 04:03 AM

So we're going to have this written from a perspective? What perspective? The people marketing SOTA? The Neo-A's? It could be done or it could not, doing it without a perspective, and making the information/rule objective descriptions (with flavour provided by Shadowtalk) would probably be a lot easier and less likely to fall flat. It's up to you of course.

If you need some time devoted to something specific then let me know, I'm willing to work on whatever.

And also, I have no feedback on a section on cigarettes as of yet. And I'd want a go ahead, and probably some ideas before I put anything concrete down. There should really be a brand of cigarette called "Lovingfield", possibly produced by Zeta Impchem (filled with awful Z-IC byproducts of course, not to mention the irony of a corp that produces medicines also marketing cigarettes.

The Azzies should have their own cigarette subsidiary, marketing Sangre Fuego as their standard cigarettes and Sangre Quemadura or Sangre Llama (or Llamas in the popular lexicon) as the stronger variant. Trade sanctions placed on Aztlan's cigarette exports could make for some interesting smuggling runs.

At least one japanacorp should have a cigarette subsidiary, though I have no ideas yet.

Any ideas?

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2007, 06:04 AM

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 20 2007, 07:21 AM

My reasoning would be that when Aztlan took over middle america they bogarted a substantial amount of tobacco, and the taxes they placed on tobacco trade from their monopoly drove up some prices of Average Joes cigarettes. Also, any number of strings could have been pulled by a rival corporation. Obviously, if it's way too weak, scrap it, I'm just brainstorming.

Posted by: mfb Jan 20 2007, 10:18 AM

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 20 2007, 11:49 AM

Posted by: Fortune Jan 20 2007, 01:23 PM

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 20 2007, 02:28 PM

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 20 2007, 02:41 PM

Oh, I don't object to information on smoking being in the book, but where? Admittedly, there's always fluff in the books, but always as part of something useful to Shadowrunners. Best thing I can think of is to include some new Edges and Flaws, of which a flaw can be smoker and chain smoker. But not sure where to put the 'fluff' then since you can't really put 'fluff' in the BP part of a book.

Of course, there will be a 'Year In' chapter that could include major media outlets and trends if a new smoking trend develops. Maybe include a story on a 'new brand' that broke into the 'top 10' brands but had some negative side effects or something else of interest that could involve Runners.

On a side note, I'm thinking of including some 'history' of the past year in the book based on some games. Our own games in 2064 were mostly Denver playing offensive instead of defensive against Aztlan. That may have effected certain markets and trends as Aztlan, in our games at least, took some major hits. Basically a Civil War in Mexico sort of story I was going to write. Hearing what other runners have done in the 2064 year would be good for the book as well.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 20 2007, 03:15 PM

I like where you're going. Edges and flaws for addiction (probably just flaws really), that don't result in outright cancer in 2d6 weeks would be excellent for "grit".

I also think it would be good if a new company came in and started muscling out other established cigarette companies, even bribing/co-ercing governments to impose tobacco sanctions/increased taxes. This would open up some novel Shadowrunning ideas for GM's I think, and plus, I think more runners should indulge in a few filthy habits. And with some extra interest in the "legal" tobacco trade, it'd be worth mentioning on shadowland.

"Hey chummers, I know most of this is nothing new to you, most of you logged in here probably have your meatbods sucking a cancer stick right now. But, of course with recent sanctions slapped on the Azzie's tobacco imports, and some some of the plantations in the CAS and the Carribean league hit by sudden (and completely co-incidental) mana storms, we thought you'd appreciate a little screamsheet put together, especially seeing as none of us know who the frag is running the new pack'o'death nico corp, Lovingfield (feel the love). Sift through the advertising drek, and stick this in your jack and smoke it.

>>>SYSter>>>-Yo-mommas-birthday<<<

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 20 2007, 03:22 PM

So start writing up addiction rules (include alcohol and other oddities) and a story as told by a narrator (ex Corp Man for the tobacco company perhaps?). Also, maybe come up with more Edges/Flaws that would be nice. I know personally I've many times looked for an addiction style flaw, so that one is an auto-add of course.

Posted by: mfb Jan 20 2007, 03:59 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 20 2007, 04:05 PM

Posted by: SL James Jan 20 2007, 07:34 PM

Posted by: mfb Jan 20 2007, 11:44 PM

ah. we were both right.

Posted by: Fortune Jan 21 2007, 12:18 AM

Posted by: SL James Jan 21 2007, 01:26 AM

No problem.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 22 2007, 08:42 AM

Ok, here's my current projects and ideas.

The Wireless stuff which I've posted the pdf rules for, no comments so I assume, no objections?

Magic Build Point System which will include some changes from the current list of rules.

Psionics. Breaking them down into 3 categories for ClairSentients, Telekinetics, and Telepaths, with the following rules.

• ClairSentients cost 2BP and can cast only Detection Spells. Their ThoughtForms replace Psychokinesis with Concealability. Targets receive no Resistance Roll unless they are aware that the ClairSentient is attempting a Detection spell on them.
• Telekinetic cost 2BP and can cast only Telekinetic Manipulation spells. They reduce Target Modifiers for Sustaining a Telekinetic Manipulation spell by 2, which is compatable with Focused Concentration. This reduces ONLY the target modifier, not the target number. Means that a Telekinetic with Focused Concentration can sustain 2 spells without any negative modifier to their TNs.
• Telepaths cost 2BP and can cast only Control Manipulation spells. Their ThoughtForms replace Psychokinesis with Confusion and Fear. They receive -1 to the Drain Level of Control Manipulation spells.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 22 2007, 12:57 PM

Half-Race ideas.....

I'm thinking currently of allowing 4 half races (in order to avoid the confussion of dwarf-orcs, etc). I want it simple so the choice is purely for theme not numbers. Initial idea is:

5BP for a HalfRace, you gain the visual bonus (either Thermographic or LowLight) and half (rounded down) of the bonuses. So, a HalfElf would have LowLight and +1 Charisma, and a TallDwarf would have +1 Strength and Thermographic. Initial thought was also no negative attributes. Opinions?

Maybe allow the purchase of up to 2 HalfRaces? So an Elven Dwarf would get +1 Charisma, +1 Strength, and both visions? Too much for the 10BP?

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 22 2007, 02:05 PM

One Character Sheet down (subject to change depending on rule changes)

http://Shadowrun.I-Sphynx.com/SOTA2065/Telekineticist.jpg

The description was too spur of the moment and sucks majorly (not to mention a couple of typos), it'll be completely rewritten at some point.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 24 2007, 12:51 PM

Well, I'm assuming from the lack of input this project has become a solo-project. No biggie, I plan to write 1 page per day in my spare time. Means about 6 months total plus the time to do some graphics. Anyhows, on the chance anyone's keeping up on things, I'm working on the http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/SOTA2065/Magic.pdf Game Information right now. I'll post on the main board for ideas. I think people forget (or ignore) the fact that this sub-forum is here.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 25 2007, 02:44 PM

I'm still interested, and willing to help. In some spare time I've been trying to get y head around flaws/rules for addiction (specifically cigarettes), and so far it's leaning towards different amounts of points for how many packs a day/week you're doing, and small modifiers to TN's when you don't have a drag in a while, although I'm still having trouble.

I was also thinking of aa magic edge similar to cracker/choker for matrix, giving a 1+ dice or -1 target number for spells of a specific type (not stackable with totem bonuses/disadvantages), although it might be too powerful. Also, I wouldn't mind a (sort of) magic version of Natural Hardening, giving +1 dice for drain resistance tests. Just putting it out there.

As for opinions, I'll admit half-races makes me feel quite squeamish though.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 25 2007, 02:53 PM

Other possible Edges/Flaws: One Eye (rules are already out there for the Cyclopi), Dual Natured, Weapons Expert (reduce penalty for defaulting?), etc.

As for your current ideas, +1 Dice is less abuseable than -1TN for casting spells (I see no reason for it to not stack with other modifiers, but should only work for 'casting', not 'drain'), and I like the magical hardening idea as well (though the names are obviously a work-in-progress )

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 26 2007, 12:15 AM

I'm really thinking of Shamans here, because if you give a wolf Shaman the edge to combat spells, they've just became a Fenrir shaman with 2+ to detection. So yeah I like -TN better, and that I would feel more comfortable giving to Shamans.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 26 2007, 07:24 AM

Considering most spell-throwers tend to roll about 10 dice to cast, a -1TN is roughly the equivalent of +2 successes. +2 dice on the other hand is only about 50% likely to gain +1 success. For the sake of 'balance', nothing we add in this book should make it a requirement for a min-maxxed character. If we have an unbalanced book, people aren't going to accept it in their games.

As for the half-races, I'm half-way in agreeance with you. Obviously an Troll-Dwarf combo could just be nuts. Orcs are already the rough equivalent between Troll and Human, so what do you think of only having 3 half races? Half-Elf, Half-Dwarf, and Half-Orc? Give them all visual bonuses and a simple +1 to a single attribute? (Charisma, Strength, and Body respectively)....

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 26 2007, 11:45 AM

Why include half-races, out of interest?

~J

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 26 2007, 12:40 PM

Well, the idea came up back when we were allowed to Surge. We had a guy 'surge' into a Half-Elf, and why not? SRComp already lets' you use metavariants, and that's all it really is. And honestly, Half-Elves (or half-anythings) fit more into theme than blue-furries...

Basically, just ideas we threw around at some point are what I am focusing my books on. That was just one of the first ones I remembered throwing around.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Jan 27 2007, 01:51 AM

...the basic concept of SURGE has opened the door for some more than just genetic mutations. In my campaign setting there is a new form of "awakening" that I am experimenting with. Won't say what it is for now since I will be doing a re-run of the scenario in which it appears.

Posted by: nezumi Jan 28 2007, 02:38 AM

I was talking with my wife about SR3R and SOTA65 and she said she would love to help, specifically by contributing art. She's a professional freelance web visual graphics design artist person fellow who draws pictures. I told her that guns are a popular thing, and even though they aren't her preferred style, she'd be happy to do her own research, sketch stuff up and, of course, get feedback. However, anything else people feel as being valid (racial profiles, vehicles, dragons, whatever) she'll go for. All she has to know is what needs to be done. Of course, she is limited in how much she can do, since it takes a few hours to do a complete picture.

She's put some sketches up here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11139177@N00/

(Yes, there are pictures of me too. I'm sure everyone will be surprised to see I'm not really a 6'11", 240lb troll named Brock.)

So people are aware, some of the pictures have b00b13s and may not be appropriate for work, unless your boss is a guy and can also appreciate a good b00b13 when he sees one.

So yes, if people have a suggestion on what she should draw, go ahead and give it. If people decide the drawing is not up to snuff, you can not include it or she can fix it given solid criticism.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 28 2007, 03:23 AM

I definately think SOTA65 should include boobies.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 28 2007, 09:59 AM

Personally, I'd be more interested, if she can, in seeing art for the various 'gear' selections. Wireless Datajack, CommLinks, ImageGlasses or even Monocles (squarish and further away from the eye than glasses), maybe even what an External Transducer looks like (and yes, definitely a CredStick too )

Posted by: nezumi Jan 28 2007, 03:28 PM

She says that'd be cool. I grabbed some comments people wrote on page 2 of this thread.

Wireless datajack - should be pretty obvious. Does it include a standard datajack too?
Commlinks - like in SR4, but less advanced, right?
Imageglasses and monocle - looks like it sounds like, right?
External transducer - I assume this the non-cyber version of the transducer, so it would hook on somewhere around the jaw?
Commlink - I'll see if SR3R changes the rules at all first ;P

Overall she says she'd be happy to do it.

She also suggested something else of interest, the idea of taking the nanobots you use to install a datajack and get similar nanobots that would rewire the brain or hardware to do crazy stuff. You could introduce the nanobots through the food supply or some such.

Also she asked if the wireless datajack will double as the internal radio or phone hardware already available?

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 28 2007, 04:47 PM

Wireless Datajack, in 2065 it should look a bit like a Wireless for a modern-day PC. A cell-phone antenae sticking out of the head sort of deal. The inside part looking like a usb, but round instead of rectangle (at least in my opinion, artist opinions are oft better).

CommLinks, I think they'd look a bit like a large cellphone, or forearm computer. Bigger than an IPod, and thought put into transportability.

Image Glasses/Monocle, yepers.

External Transducer. No idea. It still requires a Datajack to use, so obviously a wire or antenae for the new Wireless Era. BlueTooth head-set with an antenae? Again, artist concepts are usually bettter than the ideas thrown at them.

CredStick, of course, in a wireless setting, that might change completely. After all, who needs a cred stick when you're transmitting wireless info all the time? Basically, you're transmitting your own IP address to everyone, and can now, via a datajack or the commlink, verify expenditures from your back account. No 'hard' credsticks needed really. Exceptions being for illegal services of course. I think they should look like USB Mem Sticks with a digitalish display of their 'worth'. So, you'd hand someone a stick with a display showing it's holding 5,000 Wouldn't need it for any other purpose that I can think of once a person goes Wireless....

Posted by: ElFenrir Jan 28 2007, 09:11 PM

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 29 2007, 08:09 AM

As stated ElFenrir, the Archetypes should all include at least some rule from this project, such as my posted Archetype (Half-Elf Telekinetic Psionicist) that I did on 125BP. If you can do that, the layout should be exactly like in the books. Ie JPGs with full character image, black side and bottom, stats on side, description on bottom.

Posted by: ElFenrir Jan 29 2007, 01:42 PM

Gotcha. Well, i shall see what i can come up with on paper first, then hit the Photoshop. Finding pictures to match these might be interesting. Well, some good artists here there are...

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 30 2007, 10:17 AM

I did some thinking and rolling on those Magic drain resistance edges, and decided it was best to divide them into:

(work-in-progress names)
Mana hardening - 3 points.
Characters with Mana Hardening are more resistant to Sorcery drain. Mana Hardening provides 1 additional die for Sorcery Drain resistance tests.

Spirit Hardening - 3 points
Characters with Spirit Hardening have the same extra die as those with Mana Hardening, except that it applies to Conjuring drain resistance tests instead.

Characters may not take both Mana Hardening and Spirit Hardening.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 30 2007, 02:49 PM

I like both, but I think maybe 2 points. I personally wouldn't buy them for 3 points. Bonus Attribute is 2BP, part-time attribute for 3 seems rough. For 3 points, if you want to keep the value, maybe offer an Astral Armour value of 1 against either Spells or Spirit attacks (dependant on the hardening you have of course).

Posted by: nezumi Jan 30 2007, 02:59 PM

Something I was considering...

CP2020 (and really, most other cyberpunk games) have external frames or power armor. At the lowest level, this is just an aluminum frame the person wears, outfitted with gyros and motors to help lift objects he otherwise wouldn't be able to move (we've seen this IRL with the walker leg supports they made for army troops a few years back). At the upper level, it's 9 feet of hardened vehicle armor that fills in the role between troop and vehicles.

I was considering this last night and thought I'd be willing to make up rules for it. The problem is neither SR3 or SR4 (officially) has them, so obviously it would be moving well outside of established canon.

Would you like me to write up a few pages on this? Or is it better nixed?

Posted by: Jrayjoker Jan 30 2007, 03:06 PM

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 30 2007, 03:16 PM

This is the internet. You can say "orgasm" here.

~J

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 30 2007, 04:44 PM

Hmmm, Power Armour. I'm completely ok with the idea, but it should be written in a manner that discourages it for "shadowruns". Ie: No stealth rolls while wearing it, base TN of 4 to detect you if you're trying to be stealthy.

It doesn't go against Shadowrun concepts, but is something you expect the resistance to wear, not the runners. Also, I think it should be clearly stated that the Strength bonus is for lifting only, and treat it as Bone Lacing for using in Close Combat. However, those are just ideas and opinions. It doesn't have to be written like that for me to add it, those are just how I'd do it.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jan 30 2007, 05:19 PM

IMO it's a bad idea to have a "no stealth rolls while wearing" rule. Just give it appropriate negative modifiers to stealth tests (or bonuses to perception tests to detect, as desired).

~J

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 30 2007, 05:48 PM

Except Stealth is Open Ended. Maybe put a Threshold on the Open Ended test... Ie: You need to exceed the Perception test with more than 1 of your rolls....

Posted by: nezumi Jan 30 2007, 08:36 PM

I was considering this. There would be several factors that come into play:

The external frame and power armor would decrease your overall speed. This limits your maximum running speed as well as your initiative. A legs-only frame only effects your running speed. This would not have any effect on astral or matrix initiative, obviously.

The larger frames and power suits would make noise. While the character can still be stealthy, anyone around them has to make a roll against a flat TN to hear the suit. So yeah, he might not be able to find you, but the constant "pffssshhhh pfffsshhhh" of pneumatics as you move tells him someone is there.

Much like the gyro suit, both frames give penalties in melee combat and to certain tests (like escape artist and athletics). Of course, if you're in a power armor suit, you're generally not especially worried about someone hitting you with a club. It's got vehicle armor.

All of these will have very high availability and cost. They're basically meant only for the military to tote around very heavy weapons. The external frames might possibly be available for cargo loading, but the only real advantage they'd have for a runner is they can carry out more loot and perhaps gyro-stabilization. It would largely only apply strength bonuses to non-melee strength tests (and we all know how many of those there are). So they'd be useful in some cases, but they wouldn't be uber, and it would help those people who feel there should be mech suits, but who would want to make them super powerful.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Jan 31 2007, 01:21 AM

Shouldn't they have a strength bonus? I want to crush some-one's face with piston-enhanced punches! Although obviously we don't want this to be crazy gundam style with rocket-boosters and such.

Actually, should we have rocket packs in SOTA65? That would b hilarious, and I'm sure they'd have the technology to make them work better than they do now, and be slightly more compact.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 31 2007, 05:04 AM

Sir_Psycho, that's the difference between Stun and Physical.

Nezumi, sounds good.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 31 2007, 11:04 AM

BTW, for anyone doing art for the book, the page dimensions are the same as the books. This is a change from earlier where I started at 1024px wide.

Full pages are done 215mm wide, 280mm high, or 2539px x 3307px. Images should take that into consideration. Every page is written as a PSD so editting can be done later, and so it's easier to wrap words around non-square images without an inline setting. There are over 20 pages done on the book, pre-art. I imagine that number will get alot higher especially once we add art. Text is written in Francis font except for headers which are done in, I believe, Futura (I'll have to double check).

I never got comments from anyone on some of the ideas, primarily (my biggest concern since I don't want to seem to favor my favorite type of character) Psionicist. I assume there were no objections over the Magic BP since the core-thread had nothing but compliments from the days back when Doc Funkenstein started it. The Magic chapter is nearly completed.

I've opted to forego the Norse Magic idea, maybe next year in the 2066 edition. The Wireless stuff needs some serious discussion especially from a 'hacker' point of view. I think mjb has ironed out his Tracker/Logger idea for the Hackers chapter, just needs a clean writing. Advanced Character Generation with more Edges/Flaws and Half-Races/Metatypes wil be the next area I work on more seriously.

Posted by: Sphynx Jan 31 2007, 01:21 PM

BTW, if you're still interested in leaving comments, I've posted up the psd's for the first few pages of the Psychic on my site:

http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/SOTA2065/PsychicsAndMagic/Page1.psd
http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/SOTA2065/PsychicsAndMagic/Page2.psd
http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/SOTA2065/PsychicsAndMagic/Page3.psd

I won't promise that any comment suggested will be added, it's got to be in-theme and not anti-book (Ie: No comments about how gay psychic rules are ), but I will do my best.

You think I should open a Comments thread for this? Or post here?

Posted by: nezumi Feb 1 2007, 10:45 PM

I've begun doing some work, haven't finished. I plan on reviewing and adding a fourth suit, a purely industrial one like what we saw in the movie Aliens. As you can tell, even though they will be useful, none of them are really appropriate for Shadowruns. If you are using one, you probably are already using security armor and MMGs anyway, so it shouldn't seriously hurt your game.

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 2 2007, 07:09 AM

Initially, every thing seems cool. Gimme 24 hours to mull over it though.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 4 2007, 03:14 PM

I've finished my fourth frame. Unfortunately, it's taken a lot more space to write out than I hoped (the previous three were one page each). This, of course, is the first draft. I'm going to put them all away and read over them again next week to straighten them out, but I'd like to hear your comments first.

Ares Mule™ Construction Frame

The Mule™ is the multi-purpose work horse for any industry that requires the ability to engage in heavy labor with delicate precision. Whether the job is to drill through a meter of plasticrete within two millimeters of precision, or to carefully maneuver a 500 kilogram crate onto the top shelf, the Mule can do it all quickly and easily, without the need for additional vehicles. The Mule boasts an 800 kilo reinforced steel frame with oversized limbs to house the strongest pneumatics on the market. The hands are modularized, to allow a single Mule to be quickly and easily reconfigured for any of a dozen activities. Its straight-forward design layout allows most jobs to be accomplished with a minimum of training. If it needs to be done right, it needs a Mule.

Game information:
The mule is an entire exoskeleton, standing eight-feet tall. Aside from steel plates around the torso and head of the operator, most of the interior is exposed, providing only +2/2 armor. This acts like a shield for the purpose of armor calculations, and the operator can use other armor. It takes one combat turn to enter or leave the Mule, and one turn to pull on or remove the harness. While wearing the harness, the operator will not fall out of the Mule, however combat pool is reduced by half. The Mule’s maximum speed is 8 meters per turn. Because the operator’s arms are free and due to his height advantage, he suffers no penalties to melee combat, but is very vulnerable to flanking. The Mule is only useful for melee combat if the target is between one meter and four meters and in front or to the side of the frame, at which point the operator may attempt to engage the target using appropriate skills. It is not nimble enough to use ranged weapons of any sort. Hands take fifteen minutes to replace, and must be done by (metahuman) hand.

The Mule has a selection of modular hands and other upgrades, some of which are listed here. While basic actions can be achieved without significant ability, many require the use of the Robotic Arm skill. The frame does not come with a datajack interface, although one can be added using the standard vehicle rules. The Mule cannot be used by dwarves or trolls, or any metatypes outside of the normal human proportions. The Mule cannot use stealth, and its signature is 4. It has an effective Strength of 14.


Name Weight Availability Cost Street Index Legal
Mule Construction Frame 800 6/1 month $60,000 3 Legal
Standard hands 40 4/1 week $2,000 2 Legal
Pincer 50 4/1 week $3,000 2 Legal
Drill 30 4/1 week $3,000 2 Legal
Torch 60 6/2 weeks $7,000 2 Legal
Magnetic anchors (hands and feet) 20 4/1 week $2,000 2 Legal

Standard hands – these are three fingered hands made for most tasks. It comes by default with the frame. They allow for most actions require some degree of dexterity, using the Robotic Arm or Quickness test. Target numbers should be assigned appropriately. Picking up a 1 meter squared box requires a TN of 2 test. Picking up a person would be a TN based on the person’s quickness. Picking up a firearm would be a TN of 6. Anything much smaller would be impossible. Feedback to the controllers keeps the operator from accidentally crushing an item, although it may not respond quickly enough for especially delicate items. Should the operator try to crush something, the hands have an effective strength of 8 (causing 8M damage each round).

Pincer hands – these are designed for larger, heavier objects. They open wider than the standard hands and are stronger, they lack the dexterity. Add a +2 to all target numbers for successfully grasping an item. They have an effective strength of 12, (causing 12S damage each round).

Drill – this is a laser guided, dikoted drill designed for precisely drilling through the most difficult substance that takes a single hand slot. It is approximately five feet long. It comes with a shield for the other hand to help protect the operator and offers +1/1 armor for other purposes. It requires a Quickness(4) test to accurately and causes 14M damage per round (barrier and armor ratings halved).

Torch – this is a laser welding torch. Using carefully adjusted lenses, it has an effective range of only one meter, beyond that the calibrated laser beams are too weak to cause more than 8L damage. However, at the point of convergence, the torch causes 12S damage. Using it requires a Quickness( test against a moving target, 4 against a stationary target. It comes with a shield for the other hand to help protect the operator and offers +1/1 armor for other purposes.

Magnetic Anchors – These are a set of powerful electro-magnets that allow the Mule to magnetically stick to anything magnetic and strong enough to hold it. It requires two points of contact to keep from falling off (traveling requires “knuckling” to maintain the maximum points of contact). When turned on, it sounds an alarm and waits one minute before activating. Once activated, any metallic objects loose in the area are magnetically brought to and stuck against a foot or hand of the Mule. It requires an Strength(6) test to avoid losing an object in hand, and Strength(10) test to remove one already stuck on the magnet.

Posted by: Pendaric Feb 4 2007, 10:15 PM

I have a concept matrix local that I use in my game. It's orginal ish but not exactly a sota piece as it is a matrix 'place'. Would you be interested?

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 5 2007, 08:17 AM

I really like the Mule. Useful for coming in from under. Might consider adding in a limited scuba option to the Mule (working from underwater), which would, of course, require Scuba rolls. Is your wife working on schematic drawings for these?

Pendaric: I'll look at anything of course, if it's laid out in a professional manner.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Feb 5 2007, 12:15 PM

Posted by: nezumi Feb 5 2007, 03:50 PM

Posted by: Pendaric Feb 5 2007, 05:04 PM

Two things I posted previously:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=14466&hl=pendaric
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=14090&hl=pendaric

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 5 2007, 07:12 PM

Pendaric, I'd be interested in adding both. I think they're both good ideas, tomorrow when I have more time I'll address each one in their own thread. Assuming we agree for the most part on everything, all i need is your permission to put them in the book.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 5 2007, 09:09 PM

Posted by: nezumi Feb 5 2007, 09:21 PM

I read over the wireless bit.

First note, don't forget to use spell check. There are a few minor misspellings that need to be tidied up. Secondly, I'd avoid the word "you" as well as the reference to "modern ipod players". None of the other source books use language like that, and I think we can benefit from holding ourselves to that standard of quality.

I'd consider splitting this up more. Generally the Game Information section refers to mechanics, and follows the colorful blurb. I don't see any reason to break this tradition. If you can write a page or two about living in the wireless world first, giving us a view of the devices and how they work, then half a page of Game Information, this will be more in-line with current books. Game information should be precise, using clear numbers for an objects weight and dimensions, as well as its price, upload speed, ACIFS rating, etc. It may be worth checking out the description of the Dataterm section of the Sprawl Survival Guide, where they write out all the functions of the trid and all the ways it can be used. They don't list the cost and dimensions for obvious reasons, but cover all the other information I'd care to know about it.

Because you're using wireless stuff, you'll need to specify where wireless technology is implemented, what kind of things it is generally used for, how the user interacts with it, and how quickly it moves. *I* understand what you're writing out because I've read SR4, but we need to write for new users who won't.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 6 2007, 01:45 AM

Just so people are aware, as a GM, I do not go to the SOTA books for more powerful items for already powerful character types, nor do I go there looking for ways to make the existing ruleset simpler or more complex. The former I don't want at all because it unbalances stuff, the latter I'll look to rulebooks for (like the appropriate weapons or magic book, or SR3R). SOTA, for me, is valuable because it expands Shadowrun into areas it lacks. SOTA63 went into merc equipment, 64 went into spy equipment. So as a GM, when I come to this project, some of these ideas really excite me and some don't. Pentara's (sorry for misspelling that, if I did) new metamagic and watcher ball is very neat. It doesn't make the characters much more powerful, but it's colorful and fun. Sir Psycho's thoughts on cigs I really liked because I've always really wondered what's happened to tobacco. I hope he hasn't thought the lack of response means lack of interest. I'm waiting! Expanding the psionic rules desperately needs to be done.

I definitely feel like we need to focus on grabbing stuff that expands Shadowrun outwards, not upwards. Astral art, tobacco products, race wars and telepathy push outwards. It seems like much of the focus so far has been on magic. Could someone look more at things to help counter magical threats as well? The watcher ball I'd group in there, but are there any groups which have specialized in being anti-magic "assets"? Any new ground taken in bringing magical ability into modern technology (like with the astral camera we saw last year?) Any progress in making passive defenses stronger? We don't want to just boost magical options without boosting counter-magical options as well.

Overall though, I hope I've explained why I'll be very hesitant about some ideas and very supportive of others. The magic creation system, at it's core, I like. I have always wanted to be able to put 5BPs towards it then awaken during game play. But I don't feel like it belongs in a SOTA book. Don't throw it away, it's definitely of value! But consider whether a SOTA book is where you'd put it.

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 6 2007, 08:08 AM

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 6 2007, 08:37 AM

Sorry for the double post, noticed I forgot to answer this question:

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 6 2007, 08:50 AM

Wow... triple post.

Another error, it was intended to only be 2BP per Tradition, not 5.

Ie:
Adept costs 5 to be awakened, 5 for max magic, 2 for a tradition, 1 for adept, 12 for 6 power points = 25BP
Sorcerer costs 5 to be awakened, 5 for max magic, 2 for tradition, 6 for spell points, 3 for perception, 4 for sorcery = 25BP
Shamanic costs 5 to be awakened, 5 for max magic, 2 for tradition, 6 for spell points, 3 for perception, 2 for sorcery, 2 for conjuring = 25BP
Full Mage costs 5 for Awakened, 5 for max magic, 2 for tradition, 5 for spell points, 3 for perception, 2 for projection, 4 for Sorcery, 4 for conjuring = 30BP

Everything was suppose to 'add up'. So in your example, the Hermetic adept it would have been:

• Awakened (5BP)
• Magic of 5 (4BP)
• Tradition of Hermetic (2BP)
• Adept (1BP)
• Astral Perception (3BP)
• Astral Projection (2BP)
• 5 Power Points (10BP)
• 25 Spell Points (5BP)
• Sorcery (4BP)
• Conjuring (2BP)

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 6 2007, 11:03 AM

I got to thinking, about the Telepath. I think people forget that Psionicists can't use Foci at all. I'm not sure -1 Drain Level is sufficient enough to get people to play the Telepath actually. After all 2M vs 2S + Foci + unlimited spell categories + unlimited Geasa + totem modifiers is still unfavorable to the person who wants the Telepath character. If my objective were to create a character based around Influence, I'd still rather play a Shaman with Manip Totem mods and a Focus to offset drain. Although, the non-domain limited Thought Form might be considered worth that offset....

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 6 2007, 01:12 PM

Ok, re-did the http://shadowrun.i-sphynx.com/SOTA2065/Magic.pdf pdf. Included art and headers this time around.

Posted by: Pendaric Feb 6 2007, 02:43 PM

For some reason I carn't read the pdf? Any clue why?
Edit scratch that I was in firefox duho!

Posted by: nezumi Feb 6 2007, 03:26 PM

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 6 2007, 04:14 PM

Telepaths: Control Thoughts works exactly the same for Psions as any other class. Our own interpretation of Control Thoughts is that you know your thoughts were fucked with once time passes on. Only the spell Influence states that you believe the thoughts to be your own. Considering the drain is barely equal for a Telepath as for a magic character designed around that spell concept, (2M vs 2S with totem mods and foci), I don't see the in-balance.

Mixing Traditions: Only the Path of Righ does it, however, we've play tested this almost since Doc Funk first posted it, and never had any problems with it. So long that I actually forgot Sorcerers start with 35 instead of 30, an issue never fully 'fixed' in the original to current costs.

And, unlike SR4, the traditions are still seperated with this. You can just have 2 seperate traditions. My very fist character with this option was an Awakened Magic 6 Shamanic/Hermetic of Loki. As the God of Magic, I decided that I should summon Elementals instead of Nature Spirits. Cost me 32 instead of 30 points because I had to buy an additional tradition so my spirits were of magic instead of nature. Would have cost me 36 if I wanted to summon both types.

Conjuring: Level two can summon Watchers and Fire Elementals, yes. Or Watchers and Sky Spirits, or Watchers and Spirits of Fire (Category 1 plus one category of spirits that falls under a tradition you're a member of.

Sorcerers have 35 Spell Points: Making them 26 instead of 25 (instead of 30 instead of 25). I will try to fix this now that I'm confortable with the idea.

Why is Magic 5 to 6 cheaper than other attributes: Same answer as the Astral Perception/Projection. Sticking to the base cost so that when you add them together it costs the same to have the same character.

I'll see if I can re-work it to fit in the +5 spell points with Magic at 2BP per level, but I fear it will make the Perception/Projection even cheaper and lose the ability to mutli-tradition, which was important to the idea. We'll see.....

Karma Costs: I'm ALL for losing the Karma cost thing, or indicating it as a discouraged Optional Rule. The reason I had it was because we played Gangers once and had alot fewer points, so nobody could play a mage really, and survive at least. So, we integrated, based on the cost of buyign adept Power Points later in game, a karma system to evolve out of the Gangs and into a more full fledged magic user. And to be honest, it's actually alot of fun to evolve a mage like that, but can definitely be abuseable at the higher BP game level where the Karma expenditures just aren't needed except to 'powergame' better.

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 6 2007, 04:22 PM

Actually, on introspect, if we lose Awakened as a purchase (it's kinda redundant anyhows), then those 5 points can be moved to raising Magic.

Lowering Astral Perception to 2BP and raising Astral Projection to 3BP would fix the Spell Point problem, giving Sorcerers 35 Spell Points for 7.

Magic 6: 10BP
Tradition: 2BP
Astral Perception: 2BP
35 Spell Points: 7BP
Sorcery: 4BP

Better?

Posted by: nezumi Feb 6 2007, 06:42 PM

Posted by: Pendaric Feb 6 2007, 09:44 PM

Posted by: Pendaric Feb 6 2007, 09:50 PM

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 7 2007, 07:37 AM

Sorry to drop back into the Magic chapter, just wanted to let you know what I've agreed to under the haggling skills of Nezumi over google talk.

The only 4 things that can be advanced by Karma are:
Magic (still limited to a total of 5 points, syntax will use the word 'finish' buying Magic up to 6)
Power Points (Again, limited to a total of 6 points with use of the word 'finish')
Sorcery and Conjuring, again use of 'Finish'. No buying Sorcery or Conjuring for another Tradition later.

Tradition, Perception/Projection, Adept, etc will not be post-generation advanceable/changeable. Tradition limitation based on the syntax of page 158 of SR3.

Also, considering changing cost of Adept to 3 (1BP is just too easy to not pass up as a non-adept) and only require Tradition selection if they want to cast spells or conjure (making it more expensive to be a Magical adept than before). Thoughts?

Anyhows, I'll go over the drones later, but I agree with a definitive need for MicroDrones. Not sure what that last Drone is needed for though.

Spoilers are done like this [ spoiler ] spoiled stuff [ /spoiler ] without the spaces.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Feb 7 2007, 10:49 AM

What happens if I buy magic at 5 and then install a datajack? That will bring my essence down and therefore it will be rounded down for magic purposes... down to my magic of five. Unless you think that magic loss will be incurred on top of my lower, existing magic rating? It'd be nice if you could clear that up.

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 7 2007, 02:54 PM

I thought it was stated pretty clearly Psycho. You can buy up to 5 levels of Magic. If you don't buy all 5 levels at Character Creation, you can 'finish' purchasing those 5 levels of Magic with Karma, later. Not seeing the room for confusion there..... Feel free to re-word it to be more clear, I'll gladly put someone elses wording into it.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 7 2007, 04:49 PM

I do believe his rules also specified that if you buy only 4 magic points (so magic 5, essence 6) and get a datajack, you lose one of those magic points, EVEN if you have an essence point above your magic rating.

Sphynx has offered me the chance to do the 'final edit' which I'll probably do next week. At that point I will also make sure the language is clear that, when you have power points and magic points, essence loss reduces magic points FIRST (so keeping it in line with the current Magical Adept rules) unless Sphynx would like the system to be more flexible.

Pendaric - I remember you showing these drones off before (and Kage gave them good reviews, I seem to recollect). Some quick points...

The Watcher needs the "add-ons" section. You mention an auto-injector in the description, but not in the numbers area.

What is the difference between the Elite Halo drone and the non-Elite? (Aside from price, in case you're a smart ass )

I feel like the Arrow would need a lower Handling rating, due to its small size and high speed (in fact, I imagine it would be very difficult to control and can almost imagine it having to make crash tests periodically because of how easily knocked around it would be) and a lower signature (since it's a super-fast, running hot UAV). Also, it's a UAV, not a UVA. I had to look that up because you had me totally baffled.

All of these needs availability numbers. I would also consider bumping up the SI a notch or two, since they seem like relatively new technology for the most part, and I imagine it takes time for new tech to trickle down to the streets.


Have you used these in games? How effective have they been? I would complain that they may be unbalancing, but honestly they couldn't be any more unbalancing than watchers are


To use spoiler tags, put the word "spoiler" between square brackets [] . Then close with /spoiler (in square brackets).

[ s poiler] blah [ / sp oiler ] without the spaces

Posted by: Pendaric Feb 7 2007, 06:46 PM

Thanks, updated the post.
Left the arrow's handleing as is due to the cost change, reduced the sig.

Posted by: Pendaric Feb 8 2007, 06:39 PM

Added another micro drone from the parent thread. I'd hate to just put everything I have done so far but would a new decker utility that targets hard ware be interesting?

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 8 2007, 07:48 PM

Send a PM to http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=Msg&CODE=4&MID=5670 about that, until I finish the magic and wireless chapter, the decking stuff and ideas are his. I'm not crazy about a utility (software) being able to attack hardware, but considering that's kinda what Black Ice is doing, there is precedence for it.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Feb 8 2007, 07:53 PM

Black IC attacks meat. It's Grey IC that goes after hardware.

~J

Posted by: Pendaric Feb 8 2007, 09:56 PM

Technically black ic does take a shot at the deck just like supped up grey ic, its a whole world of fun.

Posted by: Sir_Psycho Feb 8 2007, 11:00 PM

Didn't some-one have a "burn" utility, that crashes the hardware system that the node/slave is running on?

Posted by: Pendaric Feb 8 2007, 11:45 PM

Check Mfb stuff its in there.

Posted by: nezumi Feb 12 2007, 10:09 PM

I wrote up an equipment list, bringing over CP2020 stuff (probably about 5-10% of the 4 chrome books, since I'm excluding everything that's overpowered, redundant, or irrelevant). I believe that everything I brought over, with one exception which is noted as such, would plug into an SR3 or SR3R game without causing any game unbalance. Unfortunately, my document is around 27 pages long. I'm posting it bit by bit here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16544

I would love to be able to post the entire rtf file to a web site somewhere, and may make a yahoo page or something to do so. All of the equipment I brought over is open to modification and I hope much of it will be brought over to SOTA65, all we'll need to do is determine what is appropriate and what isn't. I don't mind (and would actually encourage) redundant postings.

(I'm double posting this at the SR3R backporting equipment thread too.)

Posted by: Sphynx Feb 13 2007, 07:02 AM

I would love to add an Equipment chapter to the book, but how long is the whole list? Ie: is it enough to get its own book or to play a major segment of a book (meaning it should wait til 2066)?

Regardless, even if it's too long, I'd like some of it to make its way into 2065 so that we have an equipment list, it would stack well with the MicroDrones Pendaric has slotted us.

Any weapons/armours included (since those are the primary balance-issue items)?

Posted by: nezumi Feb 13 2007, 03:12 PM

Three weapons, which have already been posted, five pieces of armor, 6 additional pieces of 'wearable' equipment. I hope to finish editing the document today and I'll send it to you. Like I've said, you're welcome to take as much or as little as you'd like. It's 27 pages in Arial 12 font, so it would probably dominate the book as it stands now. Most of it is cyber, especially cosmetic cyber and unusual cyberhands.