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Dumpshock Forums _ Community Projects _ Copyright question

Posted by: VVerevvolf Jul 12 2007, 05:37 PM

Hi guys,

i'm currently working on a free program to manage SR 4 characters (attributes, skills, the lot) and to provide useful GM tools (calculators for the ranged combat modifier, melee combat modifier and defense modifier, as well as a simple random loot generator).
Now my question would be: what do I need to know in terms of copyright and stuff? The program is currently named "SR 4.01D Wizard" (the working title) and it's using a big Shadowrun logo. Is that allowed? Forbidden? Do I need to place something like "WizKid holds all rights on names, logos and stuff" within the program? Do I need to ask WizKid for permission to use this name and said logo?

Any help is appreciated

Posted by: tisoz Jul 12 2007, 05:45 PM

http://shadowrunrpg.com/legal.shtml

Posted by: Adarael Jul 12 2007, 05:50 PM

That's an issue for WizKids to determine, but offhand, I'd say that's a no-no for two reasons.
1) WizKids no longer has the Shadowrun liscence. It now belongs to Catalyst Game Labs, which is a subsidiary of InMediaRes Productions.
2) I don't believe they wanted the logo used for that kind of thing in the past - only fansites and whatnot.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 12 2007, 05:54 PM

Wrong! WizKids absolutely still owns the rights to Shadowrun and unless I am deeply mistaken is not selling it to anyone. Catalyst is acquiring the license to exploit the intellectual property in the RPG market.

~J

Posted by: Adarael Jul 12 2007, 06:00 PM

If InMediaRes LLC has the rights to the RPG, the RPG logo is part and parcel with that, given that it is a portion of the license's "brand identity". It's the visual icon of the license. This is why the FASA Mechwarrior logo can't be used by anyone but FASA Game Studios - it's tied to the lisence for Mechwarrior video games. Hence the name "Classic Battletech RPG" as produced by InMediaRes.

And unless InMediaRes is doing some very strange deal, their negotiations for the shadowrun license means they are looking to buy it wholesale. It's possible that they're not, but I find it very unlikely.

Posted by: tisoz Jul 12 2007, 06:01 PM

QUOTE (Adarael @ Jul 12 2007, 01:50 PM)

That's an issue for WizKids to determine, but offhand, I'd say that's a no-no for two reasons.
1) WizKids no longer has the Shadowrun licence. It now belongs to Catalyst Game Labs, which is a subsidiary of InMediaRes Productions.
2) I don't believe they wanted the logo used for that kind of thing in the past - only fansites and whatnot.

1. As pointed out, this is incorrect

2. It has been used on similar projects in the past. NSRCG used it and included a ton of copywritten material. However, it has disappeared, much like the SR3R thread disappeared with the explanation the new license holder might not appreciate it. In other words, might sue.

With this in mind, you may want to see how things are going to play out with the new license holder.

Posted by: Adarael Jul 12 2007, 06:11 PM

Tisoz, Kagetenshi... Do either of you have the full details of the liscence changing hands? Because if InMediaRes LLC and Wizkids LLC both own the lisence, what's the deal? How is IMR aquiring a lisence if Wizkids is also retaining it?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 12 2007, 06:12 PM

QUOTE (Adarael @ Jul 12 2007, 01:00 PM)

That's a license to use. That doesn't mean they have standing to sue someone else if they use it. If the license is exclusive they may have standing to sue WizKids to compel them to enforce that exclusivity, but WizKids remains the injured party in infringement of intellectual property owned by them.

QUOTE

And unless InMediaRes is doing some very strange deal, their negotiations for the shadowrun license means they are looking to buy it wholesale. It's possible that they're not, but I find it very unlikely.

Why do you find it unlikely? It would mean that IMR would be in the position FanPro was in previously. Also, if you'll look http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/wordpress/?p=168, the body of the press release specifies publishing rights. Intellectual property acquisition would presumably be important enough to mention.

~J

Posted by: Adarael Jul 12 2007, 06:20 PM

Mostly, I find it unlikely because a lisence to use is 99% of the time an ownership and enforcement lisence as well. A publication lisence in this case is also tied to game design & development at Catalyst Game Labs, which is essentially the whole shebang. If publication, distribution, design, writing, etc is all being done by IMR and subsidiaries, why wouldn't they try to buy it whole hog from FanPro? There's very little reason to do so at that point.

The thing is, aquiring the lisence to the exent that is apparent is 99% of the time, the same as total IP purchasing. As far as I can tell, the only thing FanPro currently could be retaining for the IP is the right to produce minatures/figures like Shadowrun Duels.

I admit, though, my belief in IMR enforcing logo IP is predicated on IMR retaining all rights to the lisence.

Edit: I think my opinion was also informed by the CGL FAQ: http://catalystgamelabs.com/faq/
Specifically the line "[Catalyst Game Labs] is in negotiations for the print RPG & Game rights to those properties." Which would give them rights to enforce copyright on the RPG logo, with regards to infrigment related to RPG products.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 12 2007, 06:29 PM

FanPro does not own any of the Shadowrun trademarks (http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/legal.shtml), nor did they produce Shadowrun Duels or have the rights to produce it (that was all WizKids).

~J

Posted by: Adarael Jul 12 2007, 06:34 PM

Eh. Wizkids owns Fanpro. It's close. Technically IMR doesn't want to design and devlop shadowrun, either - Catalyst does. But IMR owns Catalyst.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 12 2007, 06:38 PM

I think http://www.fanprogames.com/?page_id=52 would be quite shocked to learn that WizKids owns them.

~J

Posted by: Adarael Jul 12 2007, 06:40 PM

...Or I read the page wrong. My bad.
It seems that my assumption was based on long ago having read that page wrong.

Well, now don't *I* feel like an asshole.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 12 2007, 06:44 PM

It happens

~J

Posted by: VVerevvolf Jul 12 2007, 07:15 PM

To be honest, I'm confused

If I remove the SR logo to be on the safe side, might there be a problem with the program named "SR 4 Wizard" as well?

If yes - whom should I ask for permission after all? WizKid? Fanpro? Catalyst Game Labs? Any other company?

Thanks for bearing with me - I'm sorry if things already have been answered in the posts above, but I'm just not into this type of stuff

Posted by: Adarael Jul 12 2007, 08:00 PM

The abbreviation SR 4 probably isn't protected. Ask permission from WizKids to use the logo and/or shadowrun name.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 12 2007, 08:20 PM

There is a logo they provide explicit permission to use, but they allow no alterations to it whatsoever without express written permission (which they generally don't grant).

~J

Posted by: VVerevvolf Jul 12 2007, 09:25 PM

Thx guys, I've just emailed WizKids

Posted by: Adam Jul 13 2007, 03:59 AM

Holy christ, let me summarize.

1. WizKids owns Shadowrun, except for the computer game rights, which Microsoft owns.

2. The "computer aids for RPG/other non-computer games" part of the agreement is a bit wonky -- Microsoft might have some jurasdiction there, but probably doesn't care even if they do.

3. WizKids does not own FanPro LLC or FanPro GmbH, and they never have.

4. FanPro licensed Shadowrun/Classic BattleTech rights for RPGs and similar/related products in both English and German, but never acquired SR/CBT.

5. Iron Wind Metals has the rights to produce metal minis for SR/CBT.

6. InMediaRes has the license to do online subscription services for SR/CBT.

7. InMediaRes [publishing/operating under the name Catalyst Game Labs] is in the process of acquiring a license for SR/CBT to produce RPGs and similar/related products.

7a. WizKids owns all SR/CBT material produced by FanPro.

8. You should mail WizKids, yes. They might refer you back to Catalyst. As license talks proceed, hopefully this process will be streamlined and formalized.

Posted by: tisoz Jul 13 2007, 04:04 AM

You left out novels.

(just because someone is sure to shortly ask)

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 13 2007, 04:23 AM

Who has the license to produce SR performance art?

~J

Posted by: tisoz Jul 13 2007, 04:30 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Who has the license to produce SR performance art?

~J

Wizkids.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 13 2007, 10:59 AM

I knew that but I can dream of them licensing those rights out to someone who will produce performance art on a scale unlike any other.

~J

Posted by: tisoz Jul 13 2007, 03:36 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

I knew that

but I can dream of them licensing those rights out to someone who will produce performance art on a scale unlike any other.

~J

At first, I thought you might be referring tongue in cheek to performance art akin to LARPing or dinner theatre or something else as hokey. I recall a stink between some game company and LARPers playing their game. It involved the LARP organizers collecting money to rent the locale and the game company avoiding potential liability law suits.

Then I wondered if you were subtly hinting toward the question about who owned the movie rights.

I figured I'd head them both off.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Jul 13 2007, 05:32 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of that woman who laid on a sidewalk for six hours with a gigantic dress on that trailed out of a third-story window, or the guy who sat in a compartment under a public stairwell and masturbated for four hours.

~J

Posted by: hyzmarca Jul 13 2007, 05:49 PM

How about getting some pistols with blank ammo, squibs, security guard uniforms, business suits, and Pink Mohawk getups, and have a team of performance artists stage a full-scale involuntary extraction in a large skyscraper without telling anyone beforehand?

I am incredibly unsure about the derivative performances, but it would probably be legal to do something based on Shadowrun so long as it were not recorded in a fixed medium.

Posted by: tisoz Jul 13 2007, 07:53 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jul 13 2007, 01:32 PM)

That fits under something else as hokey.

Posted by: mfb Jul 13 2007, 07:59 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

...or the guy who sat in a compartment under a public stairwell and masturbated for four hours.

isn't that more of a graphic design thing than performance art?

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Jul 13 2007, 08:07 PM

QUOTE (mfb)

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

...or the guy who sat in a compartment under a public stairwell and masturbated for four hours.

isn't that more of a graphic design thing than performance art?

I think it's the latter, which produces the former.

Like watching a hibachi chef. Sure, the food is the end product, but watching him cook is the real entertainment.

Ew.

Posted by: VVerevvolf Jul 22 2007, 06:02 PM

Hm, I've been waiting for an answer for over a week now - nothing.
I've renamed it to "SR4W" and removed the SR logo - I hope that's enough.
I will release the program soon so you can test it