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Dumpshock Forums _ Community Projects _ Initiation cost tool

Posted by: Kronk2 Dec 24 2007, 09:41 AM

I got tired of doing the math every time so I wrote a spreadsheet to do it for me.

so http://www.mediafire.com/?5ejl3cugc0g

Posted by: Kronk2 Dec 27 2007, 08:08 AM

hmm I just realized that most every out there does not use open office,SO what format do you want the file in?

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 27 2007, 02:05 PM

Well, optimal would be a program rather than a spreadsheet, but given that OO.o is Free open-source software I'd say it's a good choice.

~J

Posted by: Casazil Dec 28 2007, 03:10 AM

I did something for magic too here is magic

Magic Attribute ~ Karma
1 ~ As Magic
2 ~ 6 / 10 BP
3 ~ 9 / 10 BP
4 ~ 12 / 10 BP
5 ~ 15 / 10 BP
6 ~ 18 / 25 BP
7 ~ 21
8 ~ 24
9 ~ 27
10 ~ 30
11 ~ 33
12 ~ 36
13 ~ 39
14 ~ 42
15 ~ 45
16 ~ 48
17 ~ 51
18 ~ 54
19 ~ 57
20 ~ 60
21 ~ 63

Here is the Initiation

Initiation ~ Karma ~ Group Karma(-20%) ~ Ordeal Karma(-40%)
1 ~ 13 ~ 11 ~ 8
2 ~ 16 ~ 13 ~ 10
3 ~ 19 ~ 16 ~ 12
4 ~ 22 ~ 18 ~ 14
5 ~ 25 ~ 20 ~ 15
6 ~ 28 ~ 23 ~ 17
7 ~ 31 ~ 25 ~ 19
8 ~ 34 ~ 28 ~ 21
9 ~ 37 ~ 30 ~ 23
10 ~ 40 ~ 32 ~ 24
11 ~ 43 ~ 35 ~ 26
12 ~ 46 ~ 37 ~ 28
13 ~ 49 ~ 40 ~ 30
14 ~ 52 ~ 42 ~ 32
15 ~ 55 ~ 44 ~ 33
16 ~ 58 ~ 47 ~ 35
17 ~ 61 ~ 49 ~ 37
18 ~ 64 ~ 52 ~ 39
19 ~ 67 ~ 54 ~ 41
20 ~ 70 ~ 56 ~ 42
21 ~ 73 ~ 59 ~ 44

I can't open yours

Posted by: Fortune Dec 28 2007, 03:19 AM

QUOTE (Casazil @ Dec 28 2007, 01:10 PM)

Here is the Initiation

Initiation Karma Group Karma(-20%) Ordeal Karma(-40%)
1 13 11 8
2 16 13 10
3 19 16 12 ...

FrankTrollman will argue those numbers with you. He says that the Karma reduction (20 or 40%) is rounded up to the dearest whole number (not down as you have done).

Hence you would have ...

Grade 1: 13 / 10 (- 2.6 rounded to 3) / 7 (- 5.6 rounded to 6)
Grade 2: 16 / 12 (- 3.2 rounded to 4) / 9 (- 6.4 rounded to 7)
Grade 3: 19 / 15 (- 3.8 rounded to 4) / 11 (- 7.6 rounded to 8)
... etc.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 28 2007, 03:23 AM

Does he say it in the text?

~J

Posted by: Fortune Dec 28 2007, 03:26 AM

You'll have to ask him more about it, but it has always been a normal aspect of Shadowrun to round in favor of the Player unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Posted by: Casazil Dec 28 2007, 03:29 AM

I did as the book stated

Posted by: Fortune Dec 28 2007, 03:33 AM

He explains it better in this post (one of quite a few, but the only one I can find at the moment), where he corrects me on this very subject ...

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=18303&st=100&#entry562594

As you claim to have done it by the book, and Frank helped write the book, I thought you might like to know the intent.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 28 2007, 05:25 AM

Where text is vague, intent can fill in. Where text and intent are at cross purposes, intent must be discarded, as it obviously wasn't strong enough to make it worth getting the text right.

(This is in general; I have no idea whether this particular case is vague, contradictory, or plain as the nose on my face.)

~J

Posted by: Fortune Dec 28 2007, 09:45 AM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Where text is vague, intent can fill in. Where text and intent are at cross purposes, intent must be discarded, as it obviously wasn't strong enough to make it worth getting the text right.

This is Shadowrun ... text is always vague.

QUOTE (FrankTrollman)

... fractions generally round in your favor in SR4. So 13 with a 20% discount is actually only 10. The exact quote is:

QUOTE (Street Magic @ p. 50)

Undergoing an ordeal during initiation reduces the normal Karma cost of initiation by 20 percent (rounded up).

It is in fact the reduction which is rounded up, not the cost. This is a fairly consistent rule throughout SR4 - fractions round in "your" favor. When you swing a sword and have an odd strength the damage rounds up; when you get hit by a sword and have an odd Body your damage track rounds up.

The only thing in the game which rounds against you is Magic Loss from Essence Loss. And that's a legacy from previous editions when the default rules were that fractions rounded against you.

But yes, the base values are 13, 16, 19... and not 13, 14, 15... So the final values should be:

1: 13 * .6 = 7.8 = 7
2: 16 * .6 = 9.6 = 9
3: 19 * .6 = 11.4 = 11
4: 22 * .6 = 13.2 = 13
5: 25 * .6 = 15 = 15
Karma: 55

-Frank

Posted by: CircuitBoyBlue Dec 28 2007, 01:46 PM

QUOTE (Fortune)

...it has always been a normal aspect of Shadowrun to round in favor of the Player unless explicitly stated otherwise.

What? That's a new one to me. When I was playing 2nd edition, we always went by the rule "round so it f*cks you." Of all the instances we found where the books actually told us which way to round, it seemed it was always against the player, so wherever it didn't say, we just assumed it should screw the player, like always.

That said, I've noticed the player often gets a little bit of a break when things get rounded in 4th.

Posted by: Fortune Dec 28 2007, 02:07 PM

QUOTE (CircuitBoyBlue)

Of all the instances we found where the books actually told us which way to round, it seemed it was always against the player, so wherever it didn't say, we just assumed it should screw the player, like always.

Note the 'unless explicitly stated otherwise' disclaimer.

Posted by: Casazil Dec 28 2007, 09:03 PM

Interesting will have to look into some posts.

Posted by: Kagetenshi Dec 28 2007, 09:18 PM

For what it's worth, I actually looked for cases where the rules explicitly called for floors or ceilings, and I was unable to find a consistent bias for or against the player. Things round both for and against the player in ratios that were not obviously overwhelming.

~J

Posted by: Casazil Mar 6 2008, 02:50 AM

I've looked at some posts as to initiation Frank Trollman says that the first level of initiation at a 40% discount (group/ordeal) is only 7 karma. his math is 13 -40% is 7.8 rounded down to 7 for level 1.

But in the book I read 13 -40% = 7.8 which right in the middle of the page is a text box that says you round up to 8.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Posted by: nathanross Mar 6 2008, 09:05 AM

Yeah, Frank's way of calculating it is cheaper for my Adept character, Ill use it!

And do not forget that the devs are still human (and also that Frank is one of them)

Posted by: Casazil Mar 10 2008, 10:55 PM

In no way shape or form was i saying anything against Frank I am just wanting to make sure I do it the right way.

Posted by: Fortune Mar 10 2008, 11:23 PM

It is Frank's argument that the wording of the rules states that the reduction (ie 20 or 40%) is rounded up. Upon reviewing the actual wording of the rules, this does seem to be the case.