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Posted by: knasser Sep 5 2007, 09:10 PM

It's vanity, I know, but I'm just posting a thread to say "goodbye."

I'm being told off by the mods now for "making personal attacks." I have never, ever, appreciated being told what I can and cannot say and have, once before, warned the moderators that I wont tolerate being told what I can and cannot say.

I have half of an adventure module written, so I will post here once more when it is done, to let people know it's up, but other than that, I'm just going to wish you all (everyone) happy gaming.

Thank you to all for much interesting and stimulating debate and peace be with you.

Regards,

-Khadim Nasser.

Posted by: mfb Sep 5 2007, 09:18 PM

el suck. peace, man.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 5 2007, 09:22 PM

It's all about style, habibi. Think of how Croup responded. But godspeed. Cool site, BTW.

Posted by: Buster Sep 5 2007, 09:39 PM

Noooooo! Just have a couple gallons of Bavarian Hafeweizen and come back in the morning, you'll forget the whole thing.

Posted by: Dashifen Sep 5 2007, 09:45 PM

I agree; it's not worth leaving the site over. Speaking as a mod, our goal is never to anger those we PM, just to remind them that they could be approaching a line that we hope they don't cross.

Posted by: darthmord Sep 5 2007, 10:30 PM

knasser, I respect your choice to exit but let me say a few things before you leave...

While I don't always agree with your take on any given subject, I do enjoy and respect the time you take to explain your viewpoint. There's a few times I've seen you post something insightful enough that I've changed my opinion on an interpretation.

That is something special to me. I sincerely doubt that I'm the only one who has had the same happen to themselves.

Some people don't agree with you. Big deal. Let them disagree. You are still right... in your game. Just like they are in their game. That said, some people tend to forget that in their railing about some subject near and dear to their over-chromed hearts.

Unfortunately, we're not all Dunkelzahns and can't Divine for crap to figure out the best way. I hope you do reconsider your decision to leave and continue to grace us with your input. You've got this sometime player & GM's attention.

Thanks!

Posted by: Synner Sep 5 2007, 11:06 PM

Sorry to see ya go Khadim. Seriously hope you reconsider. Don't forget to stay in touch.

Posted by: FriendoftheDork Sep 5 2007, 11:25 PM

I haven't been here long enough to know you, but the few posts I have seen from you have been reasonable and educational. If you've come into conflikt, that's a shame but I would hope you would stay and just try to avoid that conflict.

Still you have to respect the rules of a forum, and if it forbids certain things you can either accept that or do what you do now - leave. I hope you don't but if you really can't stand it... too bad.

Happy gaming to you too, hope you can still lurk here at least

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Sep 5 2007, 11:53 PM

Personally, having read the thread which started this all, I don't think you should leave. I do think you called someone on bullshit, and I think that if you got modslapped for it, then the other party deserves twice as bad. Hell, given the situation, I think you handled it with grace and decorum. In a similar situation, I was much ruder to him.

Mods, I feel that if your policy has driven off this poster, and yet leaves Doc Funk's crusade against cybergenitalia untouched, then you should seriously rethink your policies. If telling another poster that their arguments are unsound and their motivations are questionable constitutes a personal attack, how can we have a debate at all?

Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 6 2007, 12:05 AM

Knasser,

I refrained from making a comment I wished to make in that thread, more of a tongue and cheek. But there is a back history regarding that person, I refrained but watched.

I found your comments to be tasteful and fairly tactful under the conditions in that thread.

I have enjoyed your comments/statements, do what you feel you must do.

Thanks

WearzManySkins

Posted by: toturi Sep 6 2007, 12:07 AM

While I am sad to see K go, there are forum rules and the mods interpret and enforce these rules.

QUOTE

warned the moderators that I wont tolerate being told what I can and cannot say

Personally I am shocked and appalled at this behavior and even more so that you would post it for all the world to see. Has anyone ever warned his GM that he will not tolerate being told what he can do and cannot do?

Posted by: WearzManySkins Sep 6 2007, 12:42 AM

Depends upon the background he mentioned.

SWAGed

Someone who has been victimized by Censorship, tend to be very touchy about Censorship, in any form.

Those who have never been victimized by censorship, can not get a "handle" on it.

It is like a sighted person(Censored) trying to describe the color blue to a unsighted person(uncensored) who has never had sight.

WMS

Posted by: laughingowl Sep 6 2007, 01:09 AM

Knasser:

Won't say we have always seen eye to eye... but will be sorry to see you go...

Not knowing the full details.. will say I am not a fan of censorship.. but will also remind, it is polite to respect others wishes in their house...

It aint censorship, if somebody says, please don't smoke... or please don't use vulgairty in my house...

Now if you do feel they are being unrealistic / fair /etc you certainly have to do what you feel is right....

Though sometimes it is worth saying, sorry I abused your (the mods) hospitality... won't say I am sorry or apologize to the 'other person', but I did break the tranquality of your house... I will try not to do it again...

Several have expressed regrets at seeing you go... and the fact you posted a goodbye, I assume you have some regrets.. I would ask is putting up with somebody's rules for their house, worth the people you can talk to at their house...

While I firmly belive I have the right to sit around my house without clothes and drink tea, I wouldn't dream of going to the local coffee shop and doing the same.... altough at time I am very likely inclined to go to the shop, not for the dirnk (which I could have at home) but for the people there...

Either way best of luck...

From a personal greedy point of view, hope you reconsider and come back... while we haven't always agreed, two people passionate about something really agree on everything... and the thought / debate process has always been enlightening and enertaining.

/salute

Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 01:16 AM

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

... and I think that if you got modslapped for it, then the other party deserves twice as bad.

Who says that 'the other party' did not receive a warning as well?

I thought it was a policy on Dumpshock that moderation be left to the moderators.

Posted by: FriendoftheDork Sep 6 2007, 01:17 AM

QUOTE (WearzManySkins)

Well there are people having lived in extreme tyranny as well - does that mean the police cannot tell them what they can't do in the nation they fled to? Because, they have a background?

Sorry, but whatever emotional baggage you have Knasser, that's a shame but that doesen't mean the mods will make an exception in the rules.

I read your post and the moderators, and although I don't know what he PMed you with it seems to be the warning was to you both as you were on the point of a flame war there. Sure, most of your post was inoffensive but at a few points you were attacking the poster and not the message, just like he was to you. It was nothing really serious, but it could easily have led to more such and spiralled out of control so I think the moderator was right to warn you both carefully.

If you feel the need to continue it without intervention from the mods, why don't you and dr. funk exchange emails and continue it from there? But you should also accept that name calling and personal attacks, no matter how cleverly concealed will not be accepted here - for example calling people dicks.

Now you can either leave as you say, or simply avoid debating with dr. funk as that will probably lead to even more of the same sort eventually. Whatever works for you.

Posted by: Wounded Ronin Sep 6 2007, 01:23 AM

Bwah hwah hwah, the modding here is so gentle. Try bullshido.net for a good time.

Posted by: Aristotle Sep 6 2007, 01:30 AM

First: I'm not certain how long this thread will be left open, or at least in this forum, given that it is off topic and likely to incite the sort of behavior that causes moderator action. I'll let the rest of the administration decide, as I'm really biased against "goodbye" threads.

Next: This post *will not* be used to bash Knasser or point fingers at other users who individuals feel should be moderated/punished. Consider this a general warning.

<personal response>

QUOTE

Mods, I feel that if your policy has driven off this poster, and yet leaves Doc Funk's crusade against cybergenitalia untouched, then you should seriously rethink your policies.

I really wish folks could see 'behind the screen' at just how much deliberation and thought go into any sort of moderation on this forum (individual or general). I'm hard pressed to think of any currently enforced policies that boil down to anything other than common sense.

QUOTE

If telling another poster that their arguments are unsound and their motivations are questionable constitutes a personal attack, how can we have a debate at all?

You are free to debate. You are free to tell someone that you can't grasp their point of view, or that their math is faulty, or that you don't feel their argument fits the spirit of the game... go for it. You can not question their intellect, ridicule them, or call them names. It doesn't matter how artfully it is done, how long you've been a member of good standing, or how much you contribute to the community. The rules are for everyone.

I don't feel Knasser has been censored. His posts remain as written. I think a statement was made that toed the line of our policy and a general warning was issued to let him know that it would be best to rethink taking the conversation any further in that direction.

Finally: I do hope this blows over and Knasser remains. I, and others, find his presence to be a positive one here at Dumpshock and his contributions to the community are appreciated. It is regrettable that this has been made as big an issue as it has.

</personal response>

Posted by: PlatonicPimp Sep 6 2007, 01:44 AM

OK, moderation is done by judgement instead of policy. OK then. I know there are guidelines, even though whenever I click on the link I get a blank page. The same thing happens when I try to PM someone, so my research and response angles are limited. If anyone has any advice on how to fix these issues, I would be greatly appreciative, because I feel the need to use the PM function.

Posted by: Aristotle Sep 6 2007, 01:49 AM

Click on the "0 new messages" link in the top right of the page. Then use "Compose Message".

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 6 2007, 02:18 AM

PP - The Guidelines and Terms of Service are up, they're just not accessible at the moment, and won't be until Adam is able to update the software. There are new ToS in the drafts, mostly with some more thought out meaning to clear up confusion, with a number of recent issues specifically addressed.

As for this situation, it comes down to something very simple. Knasser called somone a dick. Not exactly the end of the world. But something worth a PM warning. The warning was straight forward. Along the lines of ' you did x, don't do x again'. There was no "telling off" or "mod smack". There are rules here,users are expected to follow them. I'll add just that suspension or anything else along those lines never came up anywhere in this, because frankly, it's an insult. It's not that big of deal.

Personally I'd like Knasser to stick around. I've expressed as much already to him. Frankly I'm suprised at the reaction, but admittedly I don't know whatever Knasser has in his background.

Posted by: Eleazar Sep 6 2007, 02:41 AM

QUOTE (Buster)

Noooooo! Just have a couple gallons of Bavarian Hafeweizen and come back in the morning, you'll forget the whole thing.

I must say Buster, you have very good taste. Schneider Weisse by Schneider & Sohn is one of my personal favorites from Bavaria. Wiehenstephaner is also very good. Hopefully knasser is able to locate some.

Posted by: noonesshowmonkey Sep 6 2007, 03:44 AM

Knasser,

It is sad to see you go. I just recently joined the DS forums after lurking for a long while... It is so hard to find good content, good opinions, reasonable and thoughtful people on the internet, much less in a forum. I rarely take an interest in much of anything a particular forum go'er says, but I always read your posts carefully. Few are worth my time, frankly; and yours always are.

I do hope that you allow some perspective to germinate, fester, if you will, in due time. Forums boil down to the core users that provide content and personality and it would be a serious blow to this one if you were to bow out. I have no read the posts in question and have absolutely no investment in whatever argument ensued. I just want to be able to come here and read clever, well thought out commentary mixed with excellent game content.

- der menkey

Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
~ Ernest Hemmingway

Posted by: adamu Sep 6 2007, 04:26 AM

Knasser - I don't really know you, but you make really good points revealing a thorough understanding of the game we all love. You have on at least one occasion disagreed with me and in doing so largely won me over to your way of thinking.

Also, some of the things you have posted/provided have been incredibly useful.

Whether you leave the site is up to you, but the cost seems much greater than the benefit.

Posted by: Gelare Sep 6 2007, 05:50 AM

Knasser, in the short time I've been around these forums I've noticed you're one of the more helpful, informative people around. It sounds like in this whole affair there are one or more parties at fault, but whether you are one of them is irrelevant; you are clearly a valued, contributing member to this community, and I, along with plenty of regular users, admins, and whoever hacked past the IC, hope that you stay. If you insist you've been wronged too strongly to remain, then happy travels to you, and watch out in the shadows, omae.

Posted by: NightmareX Sep 6 2007, 06:02 AM

Knasser, I don't know what went on here (been gone the past couple of days), but I think I have a fair idea already just from this thread. I would say more, but...... Having recently had similar issues, I must say that I am very sorry to see you go especially under such circumstances though I totally understand your decision (I contemplated the same, save for the graciousness of the mod staff - two in specific - I would have). I enjoy your take on the game and your insights. In my opinion, you have more than earned your place here my friend.

Posted by: tisoz Sep 6 2007, 09:50 AM

Sorry to hear you considering leaving. You are one of the newer members that contributed often and in a positive fashion to the forums.

Perhaps take a few months off and come back and visit?
It's kind of amusing to me that when I once considered leaving, all I got was a single comment about a door and my ass. Can you not feel the friendship? Is it fair to the friends you have made?

Posted by: hobgoblin Sep 6 2007, 11:51 AM

for fear of opening a can of worms, what did i miss?

Posted by: Blade Sep 6 2007, 12:17 PM

It's in the Augmentation review thread.

Long story short : knasser ended up in an argument with Doc Funk about the penile implant. One of his post ended with a witty remark which could be considered as a personal attack.
So he got a PM from the mods telling him that he sould not say such things.
Since knasser seems to have a strong distate for censorship (for personal historical reasons) and feels that such a thing is censorship, he decided to leave.

@knasser: I liked your posts. When debating an issue, I found your posts constructive and free of ad-hoc arguments and other 'I know better than you' attitude, even if I sometimes didn't agree with your point of view.
Have fun!

Posted by: Fortune Sep 6 2007, 12:24 PM

I heartily applaud your impartial summation of the incident.

Posted by: hobgoblin Sep 6 2007, 12:30 PM

thanks for the info blade.

knasser. its only sensorship if they where to block you from the site without warning, or hell maybe even erasing you whole post history...

being told your may be stepping on some toes (some toes i do believe i have wanted to step on at times myself) is nothing.

but then i guess i have not seen the level of sensorship that you may have.

anyways, dumpshock is one of those places where you need a thick skin to survive, even if it seems to have taken a dive for the worse lately...

Posted by: toturi Sep 6 2007, 12:50 PM

You need more than a thick skin. You need Full Body Armor with Non-conductive 6 and Edge. Everyone should have more Edge.

Posted by: hobgoblin Sep 6 2007, 01:56 PM

bah, who needs edge, i have a mental reality distortion field

Posted by: Kagetenshi Sep 6 2007, 02:30 PM

QUOTE (Aristotle)

I'm hard pressed to think of any currently enforced policies that boil down to anything other than common sense.

Enforced politeness comes to mind.

(Also, I'd suggest against appealing to common sense, given how variable and prone to being simply wrong it is)

~J

Posted by: Redjack Sep 6 2007, 02:46 PM

Let me start off with the legalize: The following is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect the views of dumpshock nor the other moderators

<personal opinion>
According to the strictest definition of the word censorship, Nassar was in fact censored:
An expression of strong disapproval or harsh criticism [American Heritage Dictionary]

That said, for a community to function there must be a level of decorum. A reasonable level of civility in order to maintain function and process. To me, there is good censorship and bad censorship. This community, this board, has a pretty clear one in regards to no personal attacks. In the past few weeks, I have seen several people given suspensions from Dumpshock for violating that tenant and seen others given warnings [ or censored as defined above ]. Following those moderator interventions I have also seen some of the most petty, immature responses to those interventions. I have also seen people rise above and recognize the price of their continued negative action to the community as a whole. Seen them grasp the thankless job that it is to be the moderators and to try maintain that civility.

If you believe that unfettered freedom of speech is of higher moral value than civilized debate then I wish you well. I applaud your standing by your beliefs to the point of separating from the community and wish you well in finding a like community to collaborate with.

I do however believe that none of the moderators have acted out of any desire to inhibit free thought, nor have they moderated simply to flaunt their authority, instead acting with the health of the community as their guiding principle. As Aristotle noted earlier, there is a great deal of discussion that occurs around each moderator interaction and they are not taken lightly.

I would ask any Dumpshock user who has been or ever does get a moderator intervention to look at the situation with what my sensei calls strict eyes. Remove your personal feelings from the situation and view your and actions and reactions from the perspective of others. Did you come across as you wanted? In the heat of the moment were you really trying to get a rise out of the person? Did your post/PM/etc say what you wanted it to say or was the message lost due to one phrase, one sentence, one paragraph not truly conveying your thoughts as you intended?
</personal opinion>

Posted by: Rotbart van Dainig Sep 6 2007, 02:52 PM

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

Enforced politeness comes to mind.

Hey - it teaches people to insult each other very politely.

Posted by: deek Sep 6 2007, 03:33 PM

I'd rather you stay, knasser. Like others, whether I have agreed with you or not, your posts were always worth my time reading...

Based on the issue at hand, I don't think its a big enough deal to leave. You called someone a name. No one is supposed to do that on this forum. So, you were warned and hopefully you, or anyone else, won't do it again.

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 6 2007, 04:09 PM

knasser, your point of view will be severely missed.
Consider; the people who will be most negatively affected by your leaving are you and the people who will miss your opinions, and I don't think that's your desired effect.
I understand that you're upset, but I hope that when the dust settles you come back.
If not, thanks for all your time and opinions.

Posted by: X-Kalibur Sep 6 2007, 05:34 PM

Knasser, whilst I agree with what you posted it did greatly appear that you were basically calling him a dick. Subtle or not you know there are rules against personal attacks. Not that I haven't seen funkenstein out of line numerous times as well. I will miss your insight and opinion, and I hope you reconsider leaving.

Posted by: tisoz Sep 6 2007, 08:45 PM

Actually, he did not specifically call anyone a Dick. I think he said dicks will sometime post to forums. I agree, there was a strong implication of aiming it at someone, and being familiar with the Doc and similar situations, the likelihood of the situation deteriorating did merit some moderator intervention.

@ Knasser. At least it was apparent what you were being asked to refrain from. My first couple of PM warnings, years ago, had me going WTF? I honestly think one was influenced by Pistons closeness to the H&K faction, if that helps date it. At least the current moderator activity does not seem to involve personalities.

Which is all to say, Knasser, you are not the only person to get warning PMs, or been the victim of moderator intervention. I am sure I am not the only person to get angry over some mod activity, or to think the mods had went beyond reason in some case.

But until there is a better, livelier place to discuss and argue over this game we enjoy, one has to put up with the associated negatives.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 7 2007, 03:49 AM

QUOTE (tisoz)

or been the victim of moderator intervention

This may be asking for it, but I'm curious what your deifinition of "victim" is in this context.

QUOTE (tisoz)

with the associated negatives.

Another where this may just be asking for it. To me it comes across as a jab at the mods. But I may be reading to much into it. Care to explain what you mean by "associated negatives"?

Posted by: tisoz Sep 7 2007, 04:20 AM

Victim - synonyms I may have used - target, recipient, object.

Associated negatives - posters one could usually do without; silly, crazy, rude, stupid posts; overly stringent moderation.

I am sure everyone has their own opinion on relativity of 'associated negatives'. In Knasser's case, it was implied that some posters are dicks. He did not even link it to the poster he was in a discussion with and getting no where. I do not know what exactly the PM warning was. It sounds like it was a bit pre-emptive, heading off what was likely to become a flame. Hopefully, the PM reflected this state, and did not assume facts that had yet to occur. IMO, Knasser was toeing the acceptability line, but had yet to cross it, and so I also believe he was justified in feeling unduly/unjustly censored.

I have asked for where the line is drawn. I have not gotten an exact reply, more of an it's an art not a science thing. But since the comment was not directed at anyone, or more accurately, it was directed at many un-named posters, Knasser's comment seems to fall in the artful category that no one but Dicks should be offended by.

Posted by: Demerzel Sep 7 2007, 04:23 AM

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Sep 6 2007, 08:49 PM)

Care to explain what you mean by "associated negatives"?

As every moderation action that occurs on DSF is heavily discussed behind the scenes it should be clear that there are associated negatives behind moderation. Otherwise why would there be such a behind the scened discussion.

I find it hard to believe that you don't understand that every act of moderation has a negative impact on the community here, the only reason you take the step of moderation is when you believe that the positive impact outweighs the negative. It is when that kind of consideration is not being made that moderation becomes a problem.

Unfortunately for some of us the way we weigh the positives and negatives differs. While I've never personally received a PM warning, I've seen them come up in threads I've been participating in, and most likely directed partially towards me. What shames me is that I see the moderation driving off a positive contributor to DSF who has been provoked by someone I see as a disruptive member, who has likewise provoked others, and who will continue to bully regardless of the moderation. Just because some people don't care. That may be a personal attack, and this may have crossed a line. But I feel it needed to be said.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 7 2007, 04:26 AM

QUOTE

Victim - synonyms I may have used - target, recipient, object.

I asked because, as you pointed out , wording can change a lot . You chose the word 'victim'. Victim and Recipient are very different words.

Knasser's warning wasn't preemptive. He 'artfully' called someone a dick, and was warned for it. Seriously, this is nothing more than simple name calling, gone way out of proportion.

Posted by: Fortune Sep 7 2007, 04:33 AM

QUOTE (Demerzel @ Sep 7 2007, 02:23 PM)

... someone I see as a disruptive member, who has likewise provoked others, and who will continue to bully regardless of the moderation.

Whatever Doc may be, he is definitely not an unproductive member of this community. He has a good grasp of the game in all of its facets, a willingness to share that knowledge, and an ability to cut through the bullshit and explain something in easy to understand, and more importantly, relevant terms.

Incidentally, I could say much the same for knasser.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 7 2007, 04:35 AM

QUOTE (Demerzel)

I find it hard to believe that you don't understand that every act of moderation has a negative impact on the community here

I disagree. The majority of the time, one reminder in thread is all it takes to get things cooled down. Granted, there are times when a mod post cools a thread to the point where no one wants to post in it. I know that it happens, and it sucks. As you say, that's why things are considered and given a bit of a run before a mod poist. That doesn't mean that every mod intervention is inherently negative.

QUOTE

What shames me is that I see the moderation driving off a positive contributor to DSF

I agree that it sucks that Knasser is choosing to leave. I'd much rather he didn't. He's been around for quite a while, but I honestly do not understand why one PM has borught him to the decision to leave entirely.

QUOTE

who has been provoked by someone I see as a disruptive member, who has likewise provoked others, and who will continue to bully regardless of the moderation

Here I disagree. The user in question has been warned and suspended before. Continues behavior along the same vein would result in more of the same.

QUOTE

That may be a personal attack, and this may have crossed a line. But I feel it needed to be said.

I don't consider it as such. It'd be pretty hypocritical to ask for feedback and then get pissed for getting it.

Posted by: tisoz Sep 7 2007, 05:03 AM

QUOTE (Fortune @ Sep 7 2007, 12:33 AM)

QUOTE (Demerzel @ Sep 7 2007, 02:23 PM)

... someone I see as a disruptive member, who has likewise provoked others, and who will continue to bully regardless of the moderation.

I agree with both of these descriptions of Doctor Funkenstein. I also think in the current state of moderator activity that the characteristics Demerzel pointed out should not be tolerated. Doctor Funkenstein knows he does it, he has acknowledged he does it, now he needs to stop or be stopped - not wait until someone succumbs to Doctor Funkenstein's baiting and responds in kind then gets censored.

In the spirit of good moderating, when a poster keeps repeating the same post, especially in more than one thread, and other members state they are about tired of seeing it (this refers to that tenuous line no one seems to know where it is drawn), how about issuing a warning? This would hopefully alleviate some baiting and bullying.

Posted by: Critias Sep 7 2007, 05:08 AM

I'm not sure what makes people think Doc Funk isn't receiving warnings or even the occasional time-out. Just because he doesn't start a thread about it every time he gets one doesn't mean it isn't happening, fellas.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 7 2007, 05:09 AM

QUOTE

and other members state they are about tired of seeing it (this refers to that tenuous line no one seems to know where it is drawn

Then we;d be back here arguing about unfair censorship.

When an arguement is brought on again and again in the same thread, to the point of derailing such as in the ongong Augmentation thread, I ask to take it to it's own thread. I did that. The thread was never brougth up, and the point was dropped. If someone had wanted to continue in that thread, then they're free to, and it's up to you wether or not you want to read it.

Posted by: tisoz Sep 7 2007, 05:38 AM

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)

The majority of the time, one reminder in thread is all it takes to get things cooled down. Granted, there are times when a mod post cools a thread to the point where no one wants to post in it. I know that it happens, and it sucks.

And are these mod actions more of what I term pre-emptive, taking action before things get out of hand? If you do not see the relationship between stepping in with some mod action and scaring everyone into dropping the subject and abandoning the thread, perhaps you should not trust your judgement to make a moderator action.

These pre-emptive mod actions are censorship. They are warnings for things that have not crossed the line or violated the TOS. Every pre-emptive mod action shifts the line further and further back, or makes the community feel the line is shifting and what will they be called out for next.

Months ago, when I felt this pro-active moderation coming, I invoked the when they came for the ... parable, and was told I was being overdramatic. Lets wait a few more months and see who else they come for.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 7 2007, 05:59 AM

I've already acknowledged that one can and some times does lead to the other. You're suggesting, assuming that I'm understanding you properly, that we infact shouldn't say anything, just wait until it gets right to the point of sending PM warnings. Then we've got our selves right back to square one, where we have a user uspet about received a PM warning. So we don't say anything in the thread, right up until we have to warn someone. Seems to me that would lead to a lot of people getting uspet that they were given a PM warning out of the blue. Not helpful obviously.

QUOTE

Months ago, when I felt this pro-active moderation coming, I invoked the when they came for the ... parable, and was told I was being overdramatic.

If you recall the circumstances, I was asking you if you had an issue with me moving a thread of yours. Not doing it, but asking. That was what prompted you to write back with a very long PM about my being a nazi. I still feel you over reacted. I hadn't intended to bring it up. Oh well.

I was equally confused when you suggested moving th e drop bear thread, then got upset when I agreed. You said the same thing then about waiting a few more months and see who else felt persecuted. Here you are again, asking the same. Now I can understand if you don't agree with my mod style, or others here. I can understand being upset about knasser leaving. I am as well. But again, this is over something incredibly petty. Someone called someone a bad name. Someone was told not to. Someone decided they didn't like that and left. This is not exactly a situation on scale with the holocaust.

QUOTE

These pre-emptive mod actions are censorship. They are warnings for things that have not crossed the line or violated the TOS.

They are reminders of the ToS. That's it. It makes much more sense to me to let someone know they're about to break a rule for using the site, then wait for them to do it. Would you rather just be given a ticket, or pulled over for speeding and let go with a warning? May be that's a bad gestapo example, but frankly it's all I got at the moment.

We dont' go about editing or deleting posts that violate the ToS. but we do have rules, and they aren't going t o do much good if we don't enforce them.

You were the one just asking us to enforce the rules on Doc weren't you?

Posted by: tisoz Sep 7 2007, 07:32 AM

QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Sep 7 2007, 01:59 AM)

Yes, wait and PM that they have went to far. It takes out your guess work that they may intend going too far. Especially when inserted publicly in the thread. Then the entire community has to second guess where the line is moving.

QUOTE

Months ago, when I felt this pro-active moderation coming, I invoked the when they came for the ... parable, and was told I was being overdramatic.

Oh well is right. Why the hell ask me if I did not want or see the point in it being moved if it was going to get moved anyway? Or was that concerning another thread that got moved, also I felt inappropriately?

(I will also relate this to how in US history the government has moved tribes, or relocated them to less desirable real estate. A great number of the tribals usually perished during the move. Related to my moved threads here on DS, they too have perished after the move.)

QUOTE

I was equally confused when you suggested moving the drop bear thread, then got upset when I agreed.

Because I felt it was on topic even less than what you were claiming my thread was. I got upset because it was a bit of censorship, it looked like you were way too easily influenced by frivolous suggestions, and because I did not think either thread merited being moved.

If you want to shut down a thread, look how I was attacked in the Drop Bear thread. Maybe metaphorically, but the decisiveness made me wonder who I had pissed off and if some people were taking the opportunity to artfully flame me.

This is conjecture and second guessing and I did not ask that the thread be locked or anyone reprimand over it, but again where do you draw the line? I would as soon see the line brought to attention after it has been crossed, then everyone can see where the line is.

QUOTE

You said the same thing then about waiting a few more months and see who else felt persecuted. Here you are again, asking the same. Now I can understand if you don't agree with my mod style, or others here. I can understand being upset about knasser leaving. I am as well. But again, this is over something incredibly petty. Someone called someone a bad name. Someone was told not to. Someone decided they didn't like that and left. This is not exactly a situation on scale with the holocaust.

And Dumpshock is not on the scale of the world. But I referenced historical incidents that I see being repeated on a smaller scale here. There is the saying those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I am trying to figure out if you are just repeating history or if you are using what you learned from history and implementing it in ways to bring DS around to your view of what it should be.

QUOTE

These pre-emptive mod actions are censorship. They are warnings for things that have not crossed the line or violated the TOS.

That's the problem though, in both your mod style and your analogy you are equalizing the potential to do something wrong with in fact doing something wrong. No one has sped, but you have been nice enough to let them go with a warning.

Real world - if a police officer pulled me over because I was driving too close to the white line (or something else bogus that was not an crime) I would be irate. I would also assume they pulled me over to try to find something that was actually criminal.

QUOTE

You were the one just asking us to enforce the rules on Doc weren't you?

Yes, I did. Read the thread. Count how many times he repeats his position - just in that thread, as apparently it was stated elsewhere a few times. Count how many people said enough is enough. Count how many times he tried to catch Synner in a lie. Way before Knasser ever entered the discussion it was apparent nobody was going to change their position. A simple in thread We may as well agree to disagree could have settled the derailment.

Also, since you decided to PM Knasser with whatever warning, I think the guy provoking him and several other people, Doctor Funkenstein, should have gotten a similar warning.

Really, someone that Doctor Funkenstein trusts as a friend should probably give him friendly PM reminders when he starts going off. Like I said, I have heard him admit he knows he does it but doesn't always catch himself. The friend could help keep him positively contributing.

Posted by: Fortune Sep 7 2007, 07:44 AM

QUOTE (tisoz)

Also, since you decided to PM Knasser with whatever warning, I think the guy provoking him and several other people, Doctor Funkenstein, should have gotten a similar warning.

And again, how do you know he didn't? He just isn't whining about it.

Posted by: MITJA3000+ Sep 7 2007, 08:09 AM

QUOTE (Fortune)

And again, how do you know he didn't? He just isn't whining about it.

I truly enjoyed knasser's posts, but as the saying goes, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. I think that whatever warning knasser received, it was deserved. There has to be rules, and if you don't like them, fine, leave.

Posted by: tisoz Sep 7 2007, 08:25 AM

QUOTE (Fortune @ Sep 7 2007, 03:44 AM)

QUOTE (tisoz @ Sep 7 2007, 05:32 PM)

Also, since you decided to PM Knasser with whatever warning, I think the guy provoking him and several other people, Doctor Funkenstein, should have gotten a similar warning.

And again, how do you know he didn't? He just isn't whining about it.

Kind of pulled out from the overall context of my post...

I do not think either should have gotten PMed.

If one deserves a PM, so does the other.

I do not know on way or the other. I didn't PM him anything about it and he has not felt the need to PM me.

Are you implying I'm a whiner? Where's that name calling line?

If I am indeed whining, it is because of the many and varied moderator actions that keep coming to light. I believe you had a say about fixing posts. Stuff like that which seem to be killing this place for anything but the ~~discussion~~ promotion of SR4.

QUOTE (MITJA3000+)

I guess you could take the saying that way, but I figured it related to the interaction between Doc and Knasser and taking each others heat or getting out. Now it seems there are too many cooks in the kitchen. It will soon get too hot and everyone will burn.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 7 2007, 08:35 AM

I promised myself that I'd stay out of this thread, but it's already doing what Knasser set it out to do so why not?

1. In the thread in question, I did nothing to "provoke" him. Didn't even mention his name or anything else; was just going on about how stupid having cybergenitalia was when more important information was cut from the book. Then, out of nowhere, he came flailing in with a rant and the insult. Hell, my only response was a "thanks for proving my point" in regards to the whole "people only respond to the cocks/tits part of the posts rather than the actual point." So... yeah. Whatever.

2. Regarding the warnings moderators give, it's unfair to say they're doing it inapproprately or using an example of them doing it if you toe the line. A more apt example would be if a moderator saw you stumbling out of a pub (so drunk you can barely stand let alone walk in a straight line), somehow make it to your car, spend ten minutes trying to get the key in the lock, fall inside, spend another ten minutes trying to hook up the seatbelt, another twenty trying to figure out how the key fits in the ignition, and then finally turning the ignition on. Then the moderator stops in and is all, "Dude, you don't wanna do that. You'll totally get arrested or worse."

I'm pretty stoned on pain killers at the moment after some outpatient surgery, so I'mma be quiet now. But just wanted to say those two things at least.

Posted by: Fortune Sep 7 2007, 08:41 AM

QUOTE (tisoz @ Sep 7 2007, 06:25 PM)

Kind of pulled out from the overall context of my post...

It was the only part I cared to comment on.

QUOTE

Are you implying I'm a whiner?

Not at all. I don't know quite how you would get that. Did you get a warning PM and then create a thread simply to garner sympathy? If not, then I couldn't possibly have been referring to you, could it?

What you have done is jumped gleefully into the thread with both feet to stir shit with wild abandon, but that isn't my problem.

Posted by: SinN Sep 7 2007, 09:04 AM

Alright. Give me a moment to word this right.

Knasser and Doc had some words on a post. Knasser made a no-no and was politley asked by a mod not to do it again, as he should have. As well as doc. Knasser decides hes being censored so he leaves. Than a bunch of bored people decided to wage war over it. Sound stupid yet? Well It looks that way from here.

For starters, the mods do there jobs, and well. They run the sight, they make sure rules are being followed, but not too strictly, and they keep order here so we can all enjoy each others opinions and dumpshock in all its glory. If Knasser thinks hes being "censored" and wants to leave, fine. Good Riddence. You annoyed the hell out of me anyway. If you truly beleive you're being censored, come to Utah. THATS censorship.

tisoz- Are you actually comparing threads on dumpshock to the Holocaust and Natives dying in a relocation? F&T3.0 is right, you HAVE overreacted. This is a forum site, not real life. Unless this is your real life, than I just pity you. Grow up bud.

And as for everyone else mod-bashing, get all the dictionary's you want, use all the biggest words you can think of to justify something that doesnt even matter. Its all stupid, and heresay. Grow up, get back to enjoying each others oppinions, and lets all move on with our lives, eh?

Posted by: tisoz Sep 7 2007, 09:06 AM

I may have started a thread or two after some moderator actions, so I guess I'm a whiner. I jumped in because I dislike the direction the moderation has taken. And, as mfb referred to in another thread, frustration with things in RL tend to lead to angry posts. So I will try to shut up about this as best I can manage.

Posted by: tisoz Sep 7 2007, 09:36 AM

I managed that poorly.

QUOTE (SinN @ Sep 7 2007, 05:04 AM)

tisoz- Are you actually comparing threads on dumpshock to the Holocaust and Natives dying in a relocation? F&T3.0 is right, you HAVE overreacted.

How, exactly, is seeing similar trends and tactics overreacting? Comparing the scope of events is overreacting and I do not believe I ever said or implied any such thing.

QUOTE

This is a forum ~~sight~~ site, not real life.

The discussion going on here is real. It is not imaginary, nor is it fictional. I am left to believe that you are bashing me for your entertainment, or your amusement as it is not real and no one here has real feelings?

QUOTE

Unless this is your real life, than I just pity you. Grow up bud.

This sounds like a violation of the Terms of Service as name calling and a personal attack.

Just curious, but SinN, what is your relationship to fistandantilus3.0?

Posted by: Fortune Sep 7 2007, 09:45 AM

QUOTE (tisoz)

I managed that poorly.

LMAO! At least you're honest.

Posted by: Critias Sep 7 2007, 10:16 AM

This is an awful fucking lot of drama over someone getting a warning PM, not even a time out or a banned account or anything else. Just a PM.

I like Knasser, don't get me wrong. I've had my share of disagreements with the mods in the past (even the recent past), and I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling in my tummy when I think about Doc Funkenstein, most of the time, either -- but Knasser called Doc a dick (no matter how cutely or innocently he tried to phrase it), and then got asked not to do it again. That's all that happened.

Everything that's happening past that is no one's fault but Knasser's. He didn't get kicked off, and moderator action did not cause him to leave (if he is, in fact, still leaving despite the new shrine to him and the protests in the streets and all that). The chip on his shoulder about being "censored" caused him to leave, if anything did, and that's a private issue he's got (which has nothing to actually do with the Terms of Service, following them, or the moderating style on Dumpshock). It's like a cop saw a car speeding, flashed his lights for a second to show the driver he was there, but let the driver keep going without getting a ticket or even getting pulled over -- and then the imaginary driver of that imaginary car went home and shot himself over it, and the community is rallying with cries of "ZOMG teh cops killed somboddy!!!!"

It doesn't really matter what deep-rooted personal issues he has with censorship, he agreed to the Terms of Service when he made an account and he didn't even get a ban (temporary or otherwise) for violating them. Now he's stirring shit up from beyond the grave, and has people marching around with their fists in the air, rambling about the Holocaust and getting ready to crank up some Rage Against The Machine or something, 'cause The Man's got them down and they aren't gonna take it any more.

Seriously, people. Christ. It was a PM warning, not the mods storming his house and murdering his family. Calm down. Comparing a PM to the Holocaust or reservations/relocations is just fucking ridiculous, and insulting to those who did suffer under oppressive regimes. You're talking about a PM that was sent internet message board, and not a very special one. Come on. You're smarter than this.

Posted by: Doctor Funkenstein Sep 7 2007, 10:24 AM

I Critias. (Still riding the pain killer high. Shut up.)

Posted by: Galedeep Sep 7 2007, 01:06 PM

QUOTE

"ZOMG teh cops killed somboddy!!!!"

Critias...I...

I think I love you.

Best. Post. Evar.

You WIN teh internets debate!

EDIT FOR CONTENT:

Also, I have to pitch in with a similar, "I like reading Doc's and Knassers stuff, though I've never been caught up in the proverbial sniping that apparently goes on between them over peni...penises? Penussses? Whatever. Shame that Knasser got upset. Would have liked to read more. So...darn."

As to the moderator issue, just see my praise and adoration of Critias' excellent post to see where I stand on that.

Posted by: Ancient History Sep 7 2007, 01:31 PM

"So long...farewell...auf wiedersehen, good night. Good byyyyye...good byyyyyyye....good byyyyyyyyyyye...."

Posted by: Grinder Sep 7 2007, 02:12 PM

Critias, you made my day - great post!

Posted by: Link Sep 7 2007, 02:18 PM

QUOTE (Critias)

I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling in my tummy when I think about Doc Funkenstein, most of the time, either

What about cyber-genitalia?
I mean, what's all this about cyber-genitalia?

Posted by: Grinder Sep 7 2007, 03:27 PM

Check the "Augmentation Review"-thread and you'll know it...

Posted by: Moon-Hawk Sep 7 2007, 04:25 PM

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

A more apt example would be if a moderator saw you stumbling out of a pub (so drunk you can barely stand let alone walk in a straight line), somehow make it to your car, spend ten minutes trying to get the key in the lock, fall inside, spend another ten minutes trying to hook up the seatbelt, another twenty trying to figure out how the key fits in the ignition, and then finally turning the ignition on. Then the moderator stops in and is all, "Dude, you don't wanna do that. You'll totally get arrested or worse."

As a complete and total tangent, as I understand it you are legally drunk driving as soon as the vehicle is on. You don't actually have to move. So someone sitting in a parking lot with the car idling and listening to the radio while they wait to sober up can get busted for drunk driving.
Of course, it's just something I heard, so it's probably BS anyway.

Oh I'm sorry, did I derail an important thread? Let me contribute to the current topic: Critias, nice post.

Posted by: Penta Sep 7 2007, 04:27 PM

*dies with laughter* Thank you Critias.

I needed to laugh as hard as I did. Which was "hard enough I thought I was going to pee".

Posted by: SinN Sep 7 2007, 07:58 PM

QUOTE (tisoz)

Just curious, but SinN, what is your relationship to fistandantilus3.0?

Just a good friend. The one who showed me dumpshock and shadowrun and such. Used to live near me, now lives elsewhere. We still talk. Good guy.

Posted by: Unarmed Sep 7 2007, 08:02 PM

QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Sep 7 2007, 11:25 AM)

According to Canada's Criminal Code:

Operation while impaired

253. Every one commits an offence who operates a motor vehicle or vessel or operates or assists in the operation of an aircraft or of railway equipment or has the care or control of a motor vehicle, vessel, aircraft or railway equipment, whether it is in motion or not.

Apperently, here in Canada, someone is considered to 'have the care or control' of a motor vehicle if they're sitting in the driver's seat. So you can be arrested for DUI if you're sitting in the driver's seat of your car even if it's not started yet.

So, if you're sleeping off the alcohol, sleep in the backseat.

Getting back on topic, I'm sad that Knasser is leaving, but I feel that he's overreacting a tad.

PS: I knew working at a law firm would come in handy eventually.

Posted by: SinN Sep 7 2007, 08:04 PM

QUOTE (Unarmed)

PS: I knew working at a law firm would come in handy eventually.

Yeah who knew we'd need a lawyer to settle an argument on dumpshock?

Posted by: Unarmed Sep 7 2007, 08:17 PM

QUOTE (SinN)

QUOTE (Unarmed @ Sep 7 2007, 03:02 PM)

PS: I knew working at a law firm would come in handy eventually.

Yeah who knew we'd need a lawyer to settle an argument on dumpshock?

To be fair, I am not actually a lawyer, just a clerk. I don't want anyone thinking that I'm more important than I actually am, or anything...

Posted by: FriendoftheDork Sep 7 2007, 09:00 PM

QUOTE (Unarmed)

QUOTE (SinN @ Sep 7 2007, 03:04 PM)

QUOTE (Unarmed @ Sep 7 2007, 03:02 PM)

PS: I knew working at a law firm would come in handy eventually.

Yeah who knew we'd need a lawyer to settle an argument on dumpshock?

To be fair, I am not actually a lawyer, just a clerk. I don't want anyone thinking that I'm more important than I actually am, or anything...

AH cmon! I'm sure there's a ruleslawyer in you deep somewhere

We don't deny it

Posted by: Unarmed Sep 7 2007, 09:47 PM

QUOTE (FriendoftheDork)

AH cmon! I'm sure there's a ruleslawyer in you deep somewhere

We don't deny it

Well yeah, I guess I'm a lawyer in that kind of way, just not in the "I passed the bar exam" kinda way.

Posted by: SinN Sep 7 2007, 10:42 PM

QUOTE (Unarmed)

Well yeah, I guess I'm a lawyer in that kind of way, just not in the "I passed the bar exam" kinda way.

I didnt think lawyers had to pass those now a days. Cant tell anyway.

Posted by: BishopMcQ Sep 7 2007, 10:46 PM

Cheers Knasser! Hopefully you'll come back after awhile, when cooler heads can prevail. If not, keep up your writing and I'll look for updates on your website.

Posted by: Kyrn Sep 8 2007, 12:00 AM

QUOTE (SinN)

QUOTE (Unarmed @ Sep 7 2007, 04:47 PM)

Well yeah, I guess I'm a lawyer in that kind of way, just not in the "I passed the bar exam" kinda way.

I didnt think lawyers had to pass those now a days. Cant tell anyway.

Really? Encountered many incompetent lawyers?

As for drunk driving, if you're over the limit stay out of the car or your life can be ruined by the po-po.

As for Knasser, I sincerely hope you're lured back into this tangled web of clashing imaginations by the release of Arsenal in a few months.

Legal Beagle out.

Posted by: Kyoto Kid Sep 8 2007, 12:19 AM

QUOTE (Unarmed)

QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Sep 7 2007, 04:00 PM)

AH cmon! I'm sure there's a ruleslawyer in you deep somewhere

We don't deny it

Well yeah, I guess I'm a lawyer in that kind of way, just not in the "I passed the bar exam" kinda way.

...when I lived back in South Milwaukee, I passed many bar exams in my time

[thinking...]...letsee go in this one? Understand the Jake's on & he's generous with the pours.

...nah Kowalski's down the block has a couple bowling alleys in the cellar and shuffleboard...and Amy's tending bar tonight

...yaderhey

Posted by: azrael_ven Sep 8 2007, 12:38 AM

Knasser, I would say sorry to see you go but that is exactly what you want people to say to get satisfaction for your decision. I have enjoyed your site and hope you keep it up. However, this world is not perfect so you just have to deal with it. The Hawaiians have it right, Hang Loose Bra. Life is too short.

Posted by: toturi Sep 8 2007, 12:41 AM

You guys don't know censorship until you've been to... well, most countries around where I live.

Maybe that's one reason I've been able to keep a clean sheet... never thought living in a censored-nanny state could help keep me outta trouble...

QUOTE

Hang Loose Bra

Cool. Does it come in push-up versions?

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 8 2007, 05:21 AM

Just a wild guess, but judging from knasser's full name (Khadim Nasser) he may be Egyptian in origin. If so, it would go a long way towards explaining why he reacted so strongly to the mod's warning.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 8 2007, 05:52 AM

Let's not start making generalizations and wild guess about people and their lives based on their nationalties ok.

Ironic that after all this, this is the first mod post in this thread.

Posted by: Fortune Sep 8 2007, 05:53 AM

QUOTE (Zhan Shi @ Sep 8 2007, 03:21 PM)

Just a wild guess, but judging from knasser's full name (Khadim Nasser) he may be Egyptian in origin. If so, it would go a long way towards explaining why he reacted so strongly to the mod's warning.

Bullshit!

Each and every one of us has to deal with all kinds of assorted crap on a day-to-day basis, and people don't need to start being immune from rules because of race or religion or place of birth ... or even the etymology of their name.

Posted by: Zhan Shi Sep 8 2007, 05:59 AM

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I just meant that Egypt has a government which is notoriously repressive of dissent. And I don't think he should be exempt from TOS. I was not trying to insult anyone, so if was taken that way, I apologise.

Posted by: fistandantilus3.0 Sep 8 2007, 06:03 AM

Not trying to jump down your throat Zhan. But that's the sort of thing that easily gets people riled, and has been very nasty numerous times before.

Posted by: FriendoftheDork Sep 8 2007, 07:48 AM

Well I feel this topic has been discussed to satisfaction... thing is if this forum was really heavilly censored this thread would either be locked long ago and/or heavily modified to present a only viewpoints favoring dumpshock mods

Posted by: NightmareX Sep 8 2007, 07:50 AM

QUOTE (Blade)

It's in the Augmentation review thread.

No wonder I couldn't find it. Thanks Blade.

Although I understand Knasser's decision, I do think he is over-reacting just a tad.